Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TheGoodGuava]

I've seen upB hit 2 alone kill Link from the center of SV at 130%ish

That's like getting hit by a random Falcon Punch rip
fr though, Zeldas up b is dumb if you can read something with it

And basically every character in the game outranges Puff because all of her hitboxes except for Nair and dash attack are absolute ****, every character outdoes her on the ground because her ground game is beyond pathetic and everyone kills her in 3 hits because lol Puff
See, i can over simplify characters too.

except Puff can weave in through the air better than all but like 3 characters making her lack of disjoint much less relevant. She can just retreat unlike characters like Falco and Doc who you can just force a trade with.

i'm pretty sure Zelda, ddd and Ganon should have at least a 55:45 mu with jiggz. So no way she's above them.

Where did you get this idea

 

[Krysco]

i'm pretty sure Zelda, ddd and Ganon should have at least a 55:45 mu with jiggz. So no way she's above them.

Don't need to win an mu vs a character to be better than them. Examples: or vs or for more relevance vs or vs /. Don't know if vs is still deemed in favour of the latter.

 

[Rizen]

That's like getting hit by a random Falcon Punch

If you don't know the MU can use upB like Mac's sideB to dodge projectiles and hit past them. Or punish something like landings. She shouldn't be able to snipe with it in neutral if the opponent knows what they're doing (Embarrass) because you can simply shield and OoS Usmash/punish. It still is a lot more practical than Falcon punch. What's nice for Zelda is she can aim it 8 directions (maybe in between angles too, idk?) so if she sees you shielding she can simple reappear in place. Farow's wind is a really good move in SSB4, unlike Brawl.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I found the talk about specific characters kill situations really interesting before, I kind of want to sway the conversation away from whatever we are at now and talk about that again. This is how in the meta Cloud primarily would set up his kills, a lot of this is taken from watching Ned and Komo, but some other players were kept in mind!

Using Cloud's pokes to set up kills
Cloud has one of the best poking moves in the game with Back air. It's disjointed making it very hard to outright beat when you are put into a bad position. This will lead to the opponent blocking a lot. Since you are positive on block after you do a Back air on shield you have the advantage. If you can read (or condition them) to pick a certain option you are able to kill them easily off of it. This is one of the main ways that Ned has landed his kills.

However to do this you need to do things that discourage the opponent from just moving around freely to avoid the Bair instead of blocking it. Something Dabuz said on his stream once was that doing a lot of overshot rising Nair can condition the opponent to try and shield this since it is a bit unsafe. Which you can use to transition poking them and finding the perfect opportunity to kill them.


There are a few variations to shield pressure for killing. When people are on platforms they are likely to shield since they have little to no options for stopping an Up air or Back air in this situation. If you poke them on shield and predict what they will do afterwards this can lead to a limit cross slash kill. (Examples including reading aggressive landings out of shield with a pivot limit cross slash or Up smash, a jump out of shield with LCS, a roll, etc.)



Get them in the air and trap them into a kill move.
Cloud obviously has some of the strongest air trapping and juggling in the game. With Up air being basically unbeatable from below (the moves that do beat it are often a commitment or just lose to a Nair) you are able to reliably trap or condition them into doing a panic option. A classic example is to jump at someone to threaten with an Up air and then wait for an air dodge, once they commit to this option you can simply use Limit Cross Slash to end them (without limit you can do fast fall Up smash). If you want to hard punish them a finishing touch can be used to punish air dodges.

While raw Up air doesn't kill nearly as well as it used to, it still has the potential to kill at higher percent. Up air is able to beat pretty much any landing aerial with the proper positioning.

There is another variation to air dodging trapping and while it isn't THAT different it's still relevant. If you Up air right as the opponent is about to land it becomes a 50/50 where if they don't air dodge they just get reset, and if they do they have air dodge lag and you are able to punish with anything you like assuming you are quick enough.



Force them to go onto the ledge and punish any ledge option.
This is a more straight forward form of making the opponent lost there stock. This is the safest way to land a kill, but getting one early can require a higher commitment which not everyone will be comfortable with it.

I'm not going to go over the entire option chart available for Cloud to react to options. But I will talk about the psychological effects of them and how it can lead to panic options.
Neutral get up: If someone does a neutral get up then immediately spot dodges in fear, you can do just about any option you want to punish this. Safer options include Falling Fair, drop shield then Up tilt, and dash attack. Some people will also do a stupid roll here since it dodges the grab and gives them stage, you can just Fsmash or Limit cross slash this. (LCH)
Jump get up: Normally you would either limit cross slash or Up air them to kill them. Not much to change
Roll onto stage: Anything you want if predicted. The best option on reaction you can do is reverse LCH OOS
Hang onto ledge: Ledge trump Back air/Limit cross slash, or let them regrab the ledge and then spike them with Dair



Things that I have not gone over yet
-I haven't gone over the various kill set ups he has including Falling Up air into FT at around 55%ish, Falling Up air into LCH to kill at around 110%ish, and Down air to LCS to kill at 75%ish near the ledge. It is a bit impractical to list each situation you can hit these, but always be aware these are very important kill combos.

-Finding ways to make the opponent swing then punish a Limit climhazard out of shield can be amazing but almost no Cloud does it right now so not much data to go on besides my own experiences with it.

-Raw reads, but idk.

And yeah that is about it for the main ways that Cloud lands kills. Yes, a lot of this information may be obvious but you can all apply this style of thinking to your own character. I'd love to hear about how your character sets up kills as well!

Thanks for reading

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/862035145255116801

Edge is confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga, making his his overseas debut!

 

[Megamang]

Limit Climhazzard OOS will become big in the meta, in my opinion. Characters that can kill out with an OoS option have always had a nice little niche; Cloud has awesome ground mobility and foxtrots so him getting under your spacing aerial with a shield is definitely a thing that happens.

Another great setup, though I wouldn't say it is underused right now like the above, is last few frames back hit of nair -> Running LCS. Kills at the ledge, true combo AFAIK.


Megaman has some cool ones. We all know about MB -> shoryu, which is actually a confirm. The rest I am going to list, unfortunately, are not true confirms and are more things that are safe to fish for and can kill if things go well.

Z-drop MB stage spike -> immediate followup. This is nice, because while you are falling down towards them 1) you are unpredictable, due to MM's great weaving and tremendous fastfall speed and 2) you have some good options to be unpredictable with! My favorites are FF -> jump -> dair, trying to bait an airdodge from the FF making them think you are coming in with a bair or nair. FF -> bair is nice, with good control you can drag them towards the stage for a hopeful nontechable, away to mix up the timing a little, AND you can mix up when you start the bair, which mixes up when the bair will hit, which means you are mixing up how long they are in a multihit. I haven't done the frame-math, but I'm pretty sure no one is reacting - even auditorally- to a f4 bair's start vs when it hits them.

Continuing with the FF options. Nair is also a nice one, the nair hitbox has some great coverage, and since you can keep firing you can even bounce them around down there for some trouble. Really good timing with your FF and jump means you can cover more time via 2 shots, and if you drop low enough to be near them at the apex of your 2nd Jump, you can hit them with a pellet -> nair combo, holding them in place and again making teching kinda hard. This doesn't work out timing wise with the FF stuff, but its more for mixup with a regular bair edgeguard... which, tbh, makes up a ton of my kill pressure because it is simple and strong, and can net you a kill pretty damn early, and comes down to a relatively simple series of chases/reads/option coverage (MU dependent)

The nice thing about these mixups, is that MM's trump is actually deadly. Trump -> bair pretty much has to combo, I haven't tested it but since some do and his is tied for fastest bair... yea.

You can also zdrop at the ledge-standup range, which is for post-ledge mixups. Drop it from high enough with an immediate fastfall, you give them a very slim window to choose a proper getup option, since trump = death and standing up into the blade can combo into at least a nair, but I prefer to try for uair for the damage or just pass through them and bair for the kill/offstage stuff. Uair at the ledge is pretty cool, and covers stuff especially well vs tall characters. I believe you have a frame advantage vs tall characters if they get their shield up.

For characters with bad recoveries, the blade itself can be a death sentence. You can also try for footstools after the hit, to make sure they die if they are at low percentages.

Question: Can you insta-footstool a techjump? That would give me some more mixup ideas.


I just posted these as they came to me, so its kinda disjointed, probably has some typos, etc. I like talking about MM's kill options, since he struggles a little in that department, but you do get some amazing moments with the robot due to your lack of a BnB Kill Confirm where everything stems from. Scatt's double dair vs Hyuga comes to mind!


Closing thought: Seeing how well Zero hits people offstage with fair/bair, with a character with way worse air mobility, way worse jump-variability, a worse projectile for trapping offstage (its better onstage, duh. I wish MB sat there with a little hitbox, but I can see how certain characters would immediately be 99:1 with MM), and a slower bair with shorter range... it makes me think it should really be possible with MM, and with proper play I can never let Thor's Cloud live to 210% in bracket ever again >_<

 

[my_T]

How many frames does it take to drop shield?

 

[Nah]

How many frames does it take to drop shield?

7 frames.

 

[MERPIS]

Don't know if vs is still deemed in favour of the latter.

It definitely isn't.

 

[|RK|]

Ike is genuinely one of those characters that I think just needs top level representation. His rep is all but dead these days. I don't think he has any super glaring flaws... He's just losing rep.

Honestly, I'm seeing Roy more than I see Ike these days. Roy!

 

[Rizen]

Ike is genuinely one of those characters that I think just needs top level representation. His rep is all but dead these days. I don't think he has any super glaring flaws... He's just losing rep.

Honestly, I'm seeing Roy more than I see Ike these days. Roy!

Does Ike have any top tier gatekeepers? I heard some time ago most of his MUs are even or near even.

 

[DunnoBro]

There's just no reason to use Ike over Cloud, he isn't bad but if I want a heavy ass swordsman who can't sweetspot the ledge...

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Does Ike have any top tier gatekeepers? I heard some time ago most of his MUs are even or near even.

He has Sheik but other than that hes pretty even with every other top tier. He's actually a rather difficult matchup for Sonic, Mario, Mewtwo, Lucina, and Rosa, not necessarily a losing matchup for them but a difficult one nonetheless.

 

[ぱみゅ]

An external source uploaded to youtube the videos of ConComics, the tournament Regi won. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGbh9nQK81c&list=PLJKAcuiBsMDwvFmIbZzSKtqsI4qQAaGMJ&index=14

 

[Bowserboy3]

How many frames does it take to drop shield?

As Nah said, it takes 7 frames to drop shield.

However, you can cancel your shield with a jump (effectively, jump out of shield), which will cancel the shield the frame after you press jump. This is how you do a proper out of shield move, as you can bypass those 7 frames of shield drop.

Effectively, if I wanted to Dolphin Slash OoS with Marth (Dolphin Slash is a frame 5 move), if I dropped shield first then did the Dolphin Slash, the earliest it could come out would be on the 12th frame (7 shield drop frames = frame 5 move). If I jumped to cancel my shield, the earliest it could come out would be frame 6 (1 frame of jumpsquat to cancel shield + frame 5 move).

This means I can punish certain things I would not normally be able to punish.

 

[Nu~]

An external source uploaded to youtube the videos of ConComics, the tournament Regi won. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGbh9nQK81c&list=PLJKAcuiBsMDwvFmIbZzSKtqsI4qQAaGMJ&index=14

Right off the bat I see INSANE edgeguarding from Regi.
Sou died both times he got knocked offstage in the first game of GFs.

 

[Floor]

Smash 4 is heavily sheild based, yes, but.... pound. Look at how often ZeRo breaks sheild with Lucina; kinda often. All that applies to puff too. I never would have imagined putting Puff better than one character would be controversial.

Also, fun fact: Puff is often listed as even or advantage over Falcon.

 

[Trifroze]

Volatility in this game would imply we can't really understand why these things happen.
Or we do, but they're outside the control of the players involved.

This so much.

Saying a matchup is advantaged but volatile for example (such as Sheik vs half the cast) implies that Sheik should win but then unpredictable stupid happens and Sheik loses sometimes. Problem is ding dong, utilt TSRK, high aura bair or even rage ladder combos aren't unpredictable stupid, they're integral parts of the respective characters and something you have to consider and watch out for when playing those matchups.

Sheik doesn't have "advantaged but volatile" matchups. In reality those kinds of matchups are either even or disadvantaged because despite her own advantages she can't deal with the advantages (not volatility) of the opposing character any better than they can deal with hers.

I think the term volatility stems from a sort of scrub mentality in which some strengths are more fair than others, and the unfair strengths need to be called something different than simply advantage.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik is the best character in the game though :3

 

[MERPIS]

Sheik is the best character in the game though :3

Don't say anything that's wrong, now.

 

[Yikarur]

Sheik doesn't have "advantaged but volatile" matchups. In reality those kinds of matchups are either even or disadvantaged because despite her own advantages she can't deal with the advantages (not volatility) of the opposing character any better than they can deal with hers.

nah, volatility describes that if you mess-up the punish is harder than average. But if you don't make those mistakes the opponent still doesn't get into the game or onto Sheik at all.
That's why Sheik is one of the best character, if not the best character.

It's the same reason why Ganondorf is bottom tier. Ganondorf gets viable if the opponent messes up, but we don't judge a character capabilities on the mistakes the players are doing, but we're basing it on close to optimal gameplay.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Smash 4 is heavily sheild based, yes, but.... pound. Look at how often ZeRo breaks sheild with Lucina; kinda often. All that applies to puff too. I never would have imagined putting Puff better than one character would be controversial.

Also, fun fact: Puff is often listed as even or advantage over Falcon.

It's never going to realistically be advantage for Puff when Falcon can kill Puff from a grab. I wouldn't list it as even, either. Edge guarding Falcon with Puff doesn't really make up for what Falcon can do when he's on stage.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

http://challonge.com/touryumon_studiosky2T

Japanese weekly tournament

Leo out at 7th with losses to Takera (Ryu) and Raito (duck hunt) according to @Das Koopa (bracket hasn't updated yet)

Also notable, Umeki (Peach) beats abadango 2-1 to send him to losers

 

[HoSmash4]

What is objectively wrong about saying that Sheik is the best is the game?

1 results wise, 2 players consistently making top 8. Diddy is Zero and very occasionally Zinoto. Cloud is very hit and miss. Bayo has Zack and Salem only appearing recently. Lots of players a tier below repping her in the top 32 stage eg Kameme nietono trevonte Vinnie. No other character has a lot of high level rep and multiple top level (top 10 PGR)rep like Sheik does.
2.she has a very very strong matchup spread. No characters gatekeep her and she is strong vs a lot of common characters. Her 'worst matchups' are often debated evens or slight losses.
there isn't anything objectively proving that she definitely isn't #1

 

[Rizen]

IMO "volatility" in competitive smash boils down to risks/rewards. Competitive smash is set in a very controlled environment, no items and only the more neutral stages to focus on skill. Then big upsets happen because certain characters are designed around losing neutral and even having bad disadvantage yet high rewards to make up for it. is the perfect example. You can't think of how well a game is going by leveled %s of damage because DK kills Sheik at (IDK) 80-something % but he lives much longer. For every hit DK lands Sheik has to land 5. I don't know the exact MU but you get the point.
This might seem unfair but consider how much easier it is for Sheik to land 5 hits, or how low risk she is. She can do chains of Fairs, Ftilt, juggles, etc. So a big part of MUs is weighing characters landing hits unequally. Can DK land 1 hit for every 5 Sheik lands for an even MU? Maybe DK can land 1 hit for every 6 Sheik lands so the MU is slightly in her favor.


The issue with this mindset is that smash is unlike most fighting games where you can kill with a jab. There's the offstage element where stocks can go instantly regardless of %s. You have to consider recovery and a character's ability to make the kill too. If a character, for example, can't recover he loses his staying power and advantage of needing to land less hits. This is why I consider a slightly better character. DDD has weight but also a recovery to make it count.


So there isn't a clear methodical way to accurately rate every MU. It's up to players to make informed calls and not everyone will agree. For the most part though, we can generally agree if there is some advantage/disadvantage in most MUs.

 

[TDK]

http://challonge.com/touryumon_studiosky2T

Japanese weekly tournament

Leo out at 7th with losses to Takera (Ryu) and Raito (duck hunt) according to @Das Koopa (bracket hasn't updated yet)

Also notable, Umeki (Peach) beats abadango 2-1 to send him to losers

Bracket says Leo plays Yotachan for top 8, and then plays Raito afterwards.

Also, I wonder if T has adapted to Ababayo. I certainly hope so.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Bracket says Leo plays Yotachan for top 8, and then plays Raito afterwards.

Also, I wonder if T has adapted to Ababayo. I certainly hope so.

Yeah that bracket stopped updating, and apparently there was a stream and raito vs Leo was live. I think there is a bracket that updates but it is not translated to English. Also, the tournament is likely over now.

 

[TDK]

Yeah that bracket stopped updating, and apparently there was a stream and raito vs Leo was live. I think there is a bracket that updates but it is not translated to English. Also, the tournament is likely over now.

Found it:

Touryumon Weekly Tournament x STUDIO SKY #2 (48 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Takera
2nd: T
3rd: Umeki
4th: Paseriman (Apparently the direct translation of his name is "buffalo". Who knew?)

T beat Aba 2-1, and Raito did indeed beat Leo 2-1, giving both of them 7th place (And T now having a winning record vs Aba again).

Nietono placed 17th.

 

[soniczx123]

https://twitter.com/freyiner_m/status/862329563006865408

M released a matchup spread for Shulk

 

[Finh009]

ignore this

 

[Trifroze]

nah, volatility describes that if you mess-up the punish is harder than average. But if you don't make those mistakes the opponent still doesn't get into the game or onto Sheik at all.
That's why Sheik is one of the best character, if not the best character.

It's the same reason why Ganondorf is bottom tier. Ganondorf gets viable if the opponent messes up, but we don't judge a character capabilities on the mistakes the players are doing, but we're basing it on close to optimal gameplay.

What constitutes as a mistake though?

Being hit by Sheik requires a mistake on your part just as much as getting grabbed by DK does. It's just that there are more mistakes you can make against Sheik, but at the same time her punish game lets you make more of them in contrast to DK's punish game.

You either make a mistake or force a mistake in player vs player with mixups or by getting mixed up and adapting back and forth. Optimal play with characters relates to not just how much they can avoid mistakes and cover options, but how well they can punish mistakes and how hard they get punished for messing up. Character viability has to be built around this reality.

 

[Luigi player]

Found it:

Touryumon Weekly Tournament x STUDIO SKY #2 (48 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Takera
2nd: T
3rd: Umeki
4th: Paseriman (Apparently the direct translation of his name is "buffalo". Who knew?)

T beat Aba 2-1, and Raito did indeed beat Leo 2-1, giving both of them 7th place (And T now having a winning record vs Aba again).

Nietono placed 17th.

Here's the vod (saved replay on twitch): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/141499972

MKLeo SDd game 3 last stock against Raito while trying to edgeguard him.

Umeki beat Aba 2-1, but Aba went full Bayo.

 

[Nobie]

Whoa, what's all this about volatile simply meaning unpredictable by players?

The idea stemmed from Street Fighter, and was on a chart by a respected FGC member who isn't about blaming "dumb luck."

From what I understood, volatile was taken to mean "how quickly and drastically a match can turn around." High volatility is when characters can get big damage off of each other from small mistakes, or ones where adavantage/disadvantage swing back and forth wildly.

Also, I thought Paseriman meant "Parsley Man."

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Here's the vod (saved replay on twitch): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/141499972

MKLeo SDd game 3 last stock against Raito while trying to edgeguard him.

Umeki beat Aba 2-1, but Aba went full Bayo.

Between ZeRo's Loss to Brood back at at Genesis and this..What is it with the top players in the world losing to Duck Hunts because of SD'ing

A combination of MU inexperience and overextending themselves offstage?

 

[|RK|]

https://twitter.com/freyiner_m/status/862329563006865408

M released a matchup spread for Shulk

Oooh, those are the wrong three characters to have a strong disadvantage against.

 

[my_T]

What constitutes as a mistake though?

Being hit by Sheik requires a mistake on your part just as much as getting grabbed by DK does. It's just that there are more mistakes you can make against Sheik, but at the same time her punish game lets you make more of them in contrast to DK's punish game.

You either make a mistake or force a mistake in player vs player with mixups or by getting mixed up and adapting back and forth. Optimal play with characters relates to not just how much they can avoid mistakes and cover options, but how well they can punish mistakes and how hard they get punished for messing up. Character viability has to be built around this reality.

You're asking the wrong questions. What you should be asking is how is DK going to force Sheik to make a mistake and vice versa. Sheik has far more control in the MU than DK does because she has a much better neutral; thus making it much easier to force DK to make a mistake.

Also, stop ignoring DK's horrible disadvantage state. Saying that DK and characters like him can afford to make more mistakes is ridiculous. It's not uncommon to see DK make one mistake and get smacked around the screen taking a ton of damage or just losing a stock altogether.

This MU all boils down to IF and WHEN the Sheik player ****s up.

There's a reason Sheik is the most consistent character in the game and far more consistent than characters like DK, Lucario, Luigi, Bowser, Ryu, Ness, etc. They lack control in a lot of MUs' where Sheik is dictator.

 

[soniczx123]

Oooh, those are the wrong three characters to have a strong disadvantage against.

The life of a midtier, sadly

 

[Luigi player]

Between ZeRo's Loss to Brood back at at Genesis and this..What is it with the top players in the world losing to Duck Hunts because of SD'ing

A combination of MU inexperience and overextending themselves offstage?

Well, in Zeros case iirc he tried to turn around with the pop-gun but messed it up and SDed because of that. The SD was pretty bad for Zero because of it happening at early %.
Doing "risky" things like these, especially if you're nervous and have to act quickly, it can happen that you mess up (it's always possible to mess that up even without stressful situations).
When I find mysel in these situations I always try to avoid them as much as possible and not get into them in the first place. Better be safe even if it isn't the ideal thing to do to avoid damage / get stagecontrol or stuff like that...

In MKLeos case he had Raito offstage and hit him while edgeguarding, Raito teched, MKLeo grabbed the ledge and wanted to drop down again to catch Raito again while Raito is trying to get to the ledge, but the lag before you're able to act from grabbing the ledge messed up Leos inputs/timing and he fastfell down with a bair into the blastzone.

This game can easily mess up inputs because of a really bad buffering system that only takes one input.
I have errors because of this in pretty much every match, oftentimes multiple times in a row.
Most of them happen while trying to do something out of shield too early. The shieldstun can be hard to estimate sometimes.
Fairs out of shield can become forward rolls, grab+dthrows become spotdodges, bairs backrolls, and much more things like that. Aerials/other attacks out of shield also often become shieldgrabs. It looks very nooby and is 99 % of the time super terrible, because the opponent could get a free punish off these.
And let's not forget the famous "trying to doublejump and use an aerial while still in lag, offstage, then only buffering the aerial and dying".

Just saying that things like these can happen easily, especially in situations where the game gives you lag that you might not expect or you're trying to do things too early to get a punish or whatever. Even if you're just 1 frame too early that 1 frame messup can lead to death.

Also it's not like MKLeo would've won for sure without the SD. He was at like 60 % while Raito was at like 75, having Leo on the ledge so Raito was in the positional advantage after Leos failed, overextended edgeguard. It could've gone either way still.

An SD is still an SD, though, so it's not a really legit win/loss.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

https://twitter.com/freyiner_m/status/862329563006865408

M released a matchup spread for Shulk

I get he has three listed as strong disadvantage plus they are the top three but just 10 losing MUs?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

An SD is still an SD, though, so it's not a really legit win/loss.

I was with you until this point. Regardless of whether or not someone SDs, it's still a legit win or loss. If a player makes a mistake, then they get punished for those mistakes, and yeah some punishes are harsher than others but that's just part of the game. I don't view it as much different as getting ding donged by DK, you screwed up, now you're gonna die for it. It sucks, but oh well.