Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Monete]

Is his disadvantage that bad? I've seen Shuton super armor through moves and convert them into KOs. Not many characters can boast that kind of option

It is not that bad, he can do multiple mix ups like down b, up air stale then use anything, throw purple Pikmins to protect his landing, etc. You have to play in disadvantage is not like Diddy, Zss, Sheik with their free side b and downb.

I think his disadvantage is better than Rosa, Fox, Lucario, C.Falcon, or Cloud. He is very light and doesnt have a combo breaker .

 

[my_T]

Absolutely.
Neutral is superb, that disgusting tiny frame, floaty, kill options range from consistent(blue uthrow, safe smashes, fair) to borderline ridiculous(dthrow rar purple bair), very good stage choices, great damage racking, strong grab game, etc.
But when you take full stage control from him the poor guy struggles to get back. Look at Shuton vs Kameme's and you'll understand what I mean.

You forgot to mention his salt inducing pivot grab that has tether like range while having 36 frames of endlag. Have fun trying to get in lol

 

[FeelMeUp]

Whaaaat the hell.

 

[ARISTOS]

Whaaaat the hell.

Are you a wizard

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Are you a wizard

wIZAWd

 

[|RK|]

Olimar's disadvantage is genuinely bad. Whistle armor is only so effective, with its reduced timing from Brawl.

You forgot to mention his salt inducing pivot grab that has tether like range while having 36 frames of endlag. Have fun trying to get in lol

White pivot grab is dumbbbbb

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

FeelMeUp It felt pretty good helping him make the video while this discussion was going on lmao. Had a chuckle at the "Olimar is top 15" posts, and I couldn't be happier his metagame has advanced this far


Also |RK| Myran recently made a video detailing whistle and its applications, and they prove to be quite useful

 

[RonNewcomb]

I've been playing Fire Emblem Heroes lately, a way different game of course. In it, certain abilities are only active when a character is under a certain amount of health, while other abilities only work when a character is above a certain amount of health. And while FE Heroes isn't competitive in that true multiplayer doesn't exist, even if it were competitive I don't think that the former abilities would be automatically considered "anti-competitive," while the latter would be, I don't know, "extra-competitive?" They're just different mechanics and features you have to exploit and try to work around at the same time.

Actually, that brings up another question: If a game actually punished you extra hard for losing things, would it be considered more competitive than a game that didn't?

Such "extra-competitive" features create what's known as a slippery-slope: winning by a little means it's easy to convert to winning by a lot. Imagine Marvel without X-factor: with those one-touch kill-combos that rely so much on assists to pull off, whoever gets the first good combo of the match is nearly guaranteed to win it. No one would say its anti-competitive, but they'd certainly have different words to throw at it for making so much depend on the first hit.

Marvel with X-factor is already known as a brutal game to compete in, and is already ragged on for being a "1-player game" at times.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIgLeta0_H0

ZeRo's Sheik makes a rare appearance in this set. Outside of his Sheik still looking really really good, I find it interesting that he uses Sheik vs Little mac - a matchup thought to be even?

 

[|RK|]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIgLeta0_H0

ZeRo's Sheik makes a rare appearance in this set. Outside of his Sheik still looking really really good, I find it interesting that he uses Sheik vs Little mac - a matchup thought to be even?

Goodness me, a JV3. Probably because if he baits out an up b, he can carry Mac farther, still be obnoxious to hit and... Not sure. Where's FeelMeUp?

 

[Mr. Johan]

I've been playing Fire Emblem Heroes lately, a way different game of course. In it, certain abilities are only active when a character is under a certain amount of health, while other abilities only work when a character is above a certain amount of health. And while FE Heroes isn't competitive in that true multiplayer doesn't exist, even if it were competitive I don't think that the former abilities would be automatically considered "anti-competitive," while the latter would be, I don't know, "extra-competitive?" They're just different mechanics and features you have to exploit and try to work around at the same time.

Heroes' Skills have one caveat: If you use one skill, it means you're disregarding the other skills in the corresponding slot. You can't run Quick Riposte at the same time as running Desperation at the same time as running Vantage (unless those and other skills become Sacred Seals later on, at which point I question the balancing team and what high-grade scotch they had at the time).

Heroes is also turn-based combat. Manipulating your strategy versus some skills is done at the first moment, and the opposing team can do nothing about it but wait to see if you can think of a strategy to get around it. Letting Hector hit first so you can remove his Armads' Quick Riposte, corner a Linde with two units to kill her off in one turn, etc.

With Sm4sh, everyone gets the exact level of rage at the exact same time against the exact same hit conditions dependent on the opponent (A fresh Robin Fair at 100% is not going to give Ryu any less rage than Roy would get at the same percent), all the while fighting a conscious opponent who won't sit and wait for you to think of a strategy for how to get around rage at that second. The vitriol against rage comes from that consciousness aspect of it forcing split decisions that could be undone by the rage-ee just thinking that much faster and exploiting, as well as a relative lack of a drawback with rage proper; Donkey Kong and Bowser maximum percent caps for their Uthrow stuff going down with their own rage doesn't mean much when they have stable kill moves just as early.

 

[FeelMeUp]

vsis most likely no worse than 55:45 on most stages and has become even easier with the ban of DH. It's historically been one of ZeRo's more consistent matchups AND the mini-interactions are more idiot proof than Diddy Mac.
Diddy Mac is a fairly annoying matchup, imo, because you can't hard abuse having full stage or fight out of the corner as well as Sheik can. Her ledgetraps usually lead to death vs Mac, as well, while tends to get %.
Pretty similar to the reason he's been liking Lucina, now that I think about it. In Sheik Mac you have a lot of those random moments where you hit the opponent properly and they explode.

 

[TDK]

IIRC Somé won't be able to go, or at least that's what I've been told.

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/857733900046483456

Some confirmed for Greninja Saga, which means we might finally be able to settle which of him or iStudying is the current best Greninja.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/857733900046483456

Some confirmed for Greninja Saga, which means we might finally be able to settle which of him or iStudying is the current best Greninja.

I mean, didn't we say that about Kome and Nicko and well, they ended up placing the same with around the same top level player wins

 

[jet56]

vsis most likely no worse than 55:45 on most stages and has become even easier with the ban of DH. It's historically been one of ZeRo's more consistent matchups AND the mini-interactions are more idiot proof than Diddy Mac.
Diddy Mac is a fairly annoying matchup, imo, because you can't hard abuse having full stage or fight out of the corner as well as Sheik can. Her ledgetraps usually lead to death vs Mac, as well, while tends to get %.
Pretty similar to the reason he's been liking Lucina, now that I think about it. In Sheik Mac you have a lot of those random moments where you hit the opponent properly and they explode.

As someone who plays a sheik on a regular basis (Saiki) I can give a bit more insight on the mu. This mu is not even, sheik wins on any stage. The fact that little mac relies on the neutral so much, and the ability to press advantage through catching landings and react punishing to an opponent overextending makes the sheik mu very difficult. Sheik has a better neutral than mac, a way of carrying mac offstage and gimping him off minor wins in neutral, and a disadvantage state that is hard to punish for most characters all adds up to a brutal mismatch. Sheik doesn't have a hard time killing mac due to her amazing ledgeteap and offstage game (covering both of Macs recovery options with bouncing fish then immediate Nair), and she can retreat safely from mac in almost any circumstance. Regarding Diddy, I think mac goes even, possibly wins the mu.

 

[FeelMeUp]

As someone who plays a sheik on a regular basis (Saiki) I can give a bit more insight on the mu. This mu is not even, sheik wins on any stage. The fact that little mac relies on the neutral so much, and the ability to press advantage through catching landings and react punishing to an opponent overextending makes the sheik mu very difficult. Sheik has a better neutral than mac, a way of carrying mac offstage and gimping him off minor wins in neutral, and a disadvantage state that is hard to punish for most characters all adds up to a brutal mismatch. Sheik doesn't have a hard time killing mac due to her amazing ledgeteap and offstage game (covering both of Macs recovery options with bouncing fish then immediate Nair), and she can retreat safely from mac in almost any circumstance. Regarding Diddy, I think mac goes even, possibly wins the mu.

Sheik's neutral isn't significantly better than Mac's in the matchup because of how good Mac's burst/counterpoke options are against Sheik's(Mac's ftilt>Sheik's ftilt, PP utilt>fair, smashes>most committal options, etc) and how well he can threaten her within needle range. He's blindingly fast and is difficult to take stage and neutral reset against because of his quick landing traps(Limit Cloud/Fox-esque, in a way) and SA smashes. We actually have a real disadvantage against him aside from those situations where it's easy to run off to a top platform and get away scot free. Sheik gimping Mac also doesn't tend to happen as often as most would think, in my personal and viewing experience, because her range is so short that side b and up b will flat out beat fair and nair most of the time anyway.
if you're suggesting it's something like 6:4 or worse i can't say i agree at all. This MU feels like one of the cases where all the Sheiks are normally significantly better than the Macs, as I'm guessing is the case with you and Saiki.

 

[Rizen]

How well can Mac juggle Sheik? It looks like Sheik gets a lot more out of winning neutral through juggles.

___________

Something I find curious about discussion around results is how with someone like Bayo, a character that's often considered to be top 4 and also often considered #1, hasn't won a major or supermajor, whichever one it was (whatever qualifies as one. Seems to change from person to person).

Salem's Bayo won Collision XIV. Das Koopa is that a major or super major? The point is Bayo has results and lots of them.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'm with FeelMeUp on this one. Mac:Sheik really isn't that bad at all, outside of maybe offstage needle gimps. I actually think his neutral is actually a little better than Sheik's because of his frame data and super armor but obviously his disadvantage is way worse thank Sheik's. It's a match up I'd say is entirely winnable so long as you keep your feet on the ground and don't stay in disadvantage too long (and don't waste jumps ever), and it's entirely possible to do that in this match up.

Add in: also worth noting that Sheik doesn't give a damn about KO Punch, needles get rid of it, so you might as well not even bother for the most part unless it's obvious that you are going to land it. Sheik really should just needle camp while Mac has KO Punch though.

 

[Das Koopa]

collision XIV was listed as a large regional and I'd stand by that, the skill pool falloff is pretty big

but it's still the most consistently well a Bayonetta has done in tournament

 

[FullMoon]

It sure looks like Greninja Saga is do or die for the frog. With so many great Gren mains going, if he performs badly it sure won't reflect well on his perceived viability.

I'm definitely intrigued to see how this is gonna play out, but probably won't be able to watch the tournament proper due to real life things.

 

[TDK]

IceArrow confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

 

[verbatim]

DreamHack Austin's this weekend, and the lower half of winner's top 48 is looking pretty crazy.

It'd be crazier than Civil War if this prediction came true. Lots of potential for upsets that aren't really upsets.

• Locus over Larry
• Locus over Leo
• ESAM over Void
• ESAM over Locus to make winner's finals

In this alternate universe Ally vs Leo is for 5th. Food for thought.

 

[|RK|]

I can see Locus in Winners Finals. Ryu beats Fox, is Leo's weakest MU, and Locus has some of the most Pikachu experience, due to frequently playing Captain L.

 

[TDK]

Locus's record against Captain L is pretty bad, slanted very heavily in Captain L's favour. I'd favour ESAM over Locus, but I'd love to see it happen.

 

[|RK|]

Locus's record against Captain L is pretty bad, slanted very heavily in Captain L's favour. I'd favour ESAM over Locus, but I'd love to see it happen.

You aren't wrong. I wonder how much of that is player familiarity...

 

[TDK]

You aren't wrong. I wonder how much of that is player familiarity...

To my knowledge, a lot of it is Captain L's great SDI helped by Bidou, in a similar vein to what ESAM's been preaching vs Bayonetta. I could see ESAM replicating a lot of what Locus has trouble with against Captain L.

Oh, and Mr. R confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Cloud should help a lot vs the 3 Sheik slayers so I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. R takes his first major soon.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm curious, which Texas PR players are confirmed for attendance? To my knowledge, I know the following are attending:

• TTN | Jerm
• TTN | Grimturtle
• FX | Karna
• Lima
• AeroLink

For non-ranked Texas players, here are the ones I know are attending:

• UG | Deluxemenu
• HnF | P2P with Gibus
• MB | Whispy
• ThisGuy
• TTN | Gnes

 

[Illusion.]

Skeeter Mania Lemme help you with that

DFW:
FX | Karna (#2 in Texas, #1 in DFW)
SWG | Lima (#6 in Texas, #2 in DFW)
AeroLink (#7 in Texas, #5 in DFW)
FX | Dakpo (#6 in DFW)
P2P with Gibus (#7 in DFW)

Houston:
GrimTurtle (#3 in Texas, #2 in Houston)
Jerm (#9 in Texas, #7 in Houston)
UG | Deluxemenu (#5 in Houston)
ThisGuy (#6 in Houston)
MB | Whispy (#10 in Houston)
Lucy (#12 in Houston)
GO! | Weegee (#15 in Houston)
Gnes (former PR)

Austin:
SaSSy (#2 in Austin)
Mikeffect (#3 in Austin)
ForbiddenOne (#4 in Austin)
Dragonite (#6 in Austin)

San Antonio:
N/A (lol)

Other:
GT | Haipe (#1 in RGV)

Notable Absentees:
Trela (#1 in Texas & Houston, now retired if you didn't know)
Cosmos (former PR, inactive)
SU | Megafox (#4 in Texas, #1 in San Antonio)
DJ Fliphop (#5 in Texas, #3 in Houston)
Papa Wall (#8 in Texas, #4 in Houston)
Twi (#10 in Texas, #8 in Houston)
SU | Hakii (#1 in Austin)

 

[TDK]

Donquavious has been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Donquavious has been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

Nice, Donquavious is the best player in North Carolina he will have a very solid run if you've never seen him play your in for a treat

 

[Luco]

In case anyone who's keeping up with the Australian scene is interested, Aus PR v2.0 is coming out atm in preparation for BAM, they're releasing it one player a day (kinda Pgr-style), so it's kinda stressful but also really exciting so if you'd like to see how we're stacking up in preparation for our biggest tournament of the year now's your chance to do so.

There are 11 players slated on the PR, today saw the release of #11, SB's very own @Pazx (ACT) who has been showing off his immense talent as of late and is looking to only get stronger in the future. Released yesterday were the inactives and HMs, who some people here might know:

Inactives:
Jezmo (Qld)
Jaice (Qld)
Saucydancer (NSW)

HMs:
Snugs (Vic)
Sriks (ACT)
Jeese (NSW)

I realise it's just a PR and it's also just Australia, but it is a continent thriving with at least 11 different active scenes (probably more) and we're only a couple weeks away from BAM (May 12-14) which will be featuring NAKAT and potentially FOW at least so please indulge in the hype with us.

https://qldsmash.com/Blog/Article/1065/australian-smash-wiiu-power-rankings-version-20

 

[Mr. Johan]

So anyone who says Bayonetta does not need an LGL is just objectively incorrect.

 

[blackghost]

So anyone who says Bayonetta does not need an LGL is just objectively incorrect.

Mvd didn't ever try to challenge her. He also plays cloud as a secondary He allowed that to happen even the commenrators were saying he waa too passive. Zach could have done the same thing with wii fit trainer mvd didn't adjust at all.

 

[Meatbag]

So anyone who says Bayonetta does not need an LGL is just objectively incorrect.

Asking for a nerf before asking what MVD did wrong seems kinda silly. MVD didn't know how to play around it so he got bodied.

 

[Jjab430]

Bear's already on it

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[blackghost]

Bear's already on it

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That shouldn't be how this works. PLAYERS want to be bailed out for not learning stages, matchup, and strategies. Go learn the ***** matchup. There is no data that a campy bago is unbeatable. On this thread alone several ways to combat this were shown days ago. Mvd lost for not adjusting. Period.

 

[TDK]

If LGL actually gets added for a game with no ledge invincibility just because there was two sets of it happening where the Bayo was vastly better than the other player and the other player refused to adapt, this community is a bunch of ****ing babies and I'm ashamed to be a part of it.

 

[DunnoBro]

A lack of ledge invincibility was proven it can't prevent any kind of ledge abuse sans custom villager. Also it's pretty offensive to both Zack and MVD to just cry 'adapt' as if it isn't a legitimate tactic which all Bayos implement to some degree. Zack's the only one to simply design a playstyle around it.

 

[blackghost]

A lack of ledge invincibility was proven it can't prevent any kind of ledge abuse sans custom villager. Also it's pretty offensive to both Zack and MVD to just cry 'adapt' as if it isn't a legitimate tactic which all Bayos implement to some degree. Zack's the only one to simply design a playstyle around it.

Custom villager was a unique case where a character had on stage presence and zoning while simultaneously being offstage. That logic doesn't apply here. She is vulnerable doing this it doesn't need a rule against it.