Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Das Koopa]

CEO Dreamland (April 14th-16th) (Florida) (376 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: TSM | ZeRo ,
2nd: Mr. R ,
3rd: NRG | Nairo ,
4th: RNG | Dabuz
5th: Samsora
5th: ESAM ,
7th: DNL | Marss
7th: CLG | VoiD
9th: Raito
9th: Circa | 6WX
9th: DMG | Captain Zack
9th: MVG | ScAtt
13th: IMT | ANTi ,
13th: Manny
13th: PG | Rich Brown
13th: MSF | Larry Lurr
17th: Ookami , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Cashmere
17th: Blank (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: MVG | Salem
17th: ZD (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Bloodcross , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Wormynugget (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: RvL | Xzax
25th: TNF | Child
25th: saj
25th: FX | Karna
25th: NAKAT ,
25th: Rideae (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: JJROCKETS (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Player-1 (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: P1 | Tweek ,

Spoiler: Sumabato 17 (April 16th) (Kansai) (223 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Edge
2nd: Ron
3rd: Ranai
4th: ikep
5th: Aki ,
5th: Earth ,
7th: komorikiri
7th: Atelier
9th: HIKARU
9th: Chanshu
9th: Sigma
9th: Rizeasu
13th: Kuro
13th: Kie
13th: Masha
13th: Tatsutsuyo

Spoiler: Roll Dynasty Tournament (April 14th-16th) (Spain) (106 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Rydle
2nd: El_Pitika ,
3rd: Robo~Luigi
4th: Marcbri
5th: MVL ,
5th: marcpq
7th: Pepo ,
7th: El_Bardo ,

Spoiler: GGWP 10 (April 15th) (Netherlands) (85 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: iStudying
2nd: BYOC | S1
3rd: PsY’
4th: Badr
5th: Supahsemmie
5th: Patrick ,
7th: T-J
7th: Tatuman

Spoiler: Zotcade ’17 (April 15th) (Southern California) (64 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Elegant
2nd: ImHip .
3rd: Razio
4th: Phoenix

Spoiler: MIUS Tempest (April 15th) (Midwest) (87 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Miloni
2nd: Ozone
3rd: Boobear
4th: Nom

Spoiler: GatorLAN Spring 2017 (April 15th) (Florida) (56 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Noble | Ryo ,
2nd: RoguePenguin
3rd: Pantyraid
4th: AGman

Spoiler: Yamabura 2 (April 16th) (Chugoku) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Nanchan ,
2nd: HIDE
3rd: Yamanyon ,
4th: Mattun

Spoiler: Smash the ICE! (April 16th) (Rocky Mountains) (69 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: BestNess
2nd: Z
3rd: JK
4th: Caculus

LAST WEEKEND

Spoiler: Karisuma 13 (April 22nd) (Chubu) (106 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Earth ,
2nd: Ranai ,
3rd: Taiheita
4th: Edge ,
5th: ikep
5th: Ri-ma
7th: Masashi
7th: Mangalitza
9th: NGA
9th: Masha
9th: Sigma
9th: 9B
13th: Kisha
13th: Kento
13th: FILIP
13th: Lickey

Spoiler: Multiverse Hopping (April 23rd) (Midwest) (144 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: 8BitMan
2nd: Dath
3rd: NameLess
4th: Sinnyboo242
5th: Skorpio
5th: Cookietec
7th: Stevenshark790
7th: PowPow

Spoiler: ICARUS III (April 22nd-23rd) (Italy) (114 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: quiK
2nd: Fire .
3rd: Robo~Luigi ,
4th: iStudying
5th: MarthForever ,
5th: Shunf
7th: ElMoro ,
7th: Dinamirer

Spoiler: The Come Up 2017 (April 23rd) (East Canada) (150 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Mistake ,
2nd: Blacktwins ,
3rd: Yoh ,
4th: LetsTickle
5th: Chrim Foisch
5th: KiddyKong
7th: FALGOD
7th: Poke

Spoiler: CouchWarriors Ranking Battle April (April 22nd) (Australia) (86 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Eternal
2nd: Ignis ,
3rd: Extra ,
4th: Xettman
5th: InsertName71
5th: haiku
7th: HydroPimp
7th: Duon ,

Spoiler: TSC 5 (April 22nd) (Tohoku) (60 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Es ,
2nd: Maguro ,
3rd: Shiki
4th: No

Spoiler: Fusion 4 (April 22nd) (Southeast) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Fatality
2nd: LordMix ,
3rd: ScAtt ,
4th: Player-1

Spoiler: Donut Dub 4 (April 23rd) (Southeast) (51 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: 6WX ,
2nd: RFang ,
3rd: Ferf
4th: Leaf FC

Spoiler: Xenosaga VII (April 23rd) (Tristate) (55 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Vinnie
2nd: Dill ,
3rd: Gen
4th: Unknown

Spoiler: Invasion 14 (April 23rd) (New England) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MattyG
2nd: Zoan
3rd: Pelca ,
4th: Squidboy

Spoiler: CMU Showdown 2 (April 23rd) (Midwest) (59 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Rayquaza07
2nd: LOE1 ,
3rd: BooBear ,
4th: DKDudeMan

Spoiler: Smash U Underground (April 23rd) (Germany) (58 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: LoNg0uw
2nd: Schligger ,
3rd: Haeschen
4th: wusi

Spoiler: Calyptus Cup Essen (April 23rd) (Germany) (64 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Jaller
2nd: SirJon ,
3rd: Meutrich
4th: TCL zyclone ,

Spoiler: Sweet Spot 3 (April 23rd) (Midwest) (56 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MJG ,
2nd: Dirtybomb ,
3rd: Toffee ,
4th: Doom Bot ,

Spoiler: Sea Crest Smash (April 22nd) (New England) (50 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: Raffi-X
4th: Koolaid

Spoiler: Storm The Rock (April 22nd-23rd) (East Canada) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Raziek
2nd: Vapor ,
3rd: zhao_guang
4th: Twan

 

[soniczx123]

Rage increases your knock back.

X factor increases damage, makes you faster, improves your frame data, makes you immune to chip damage, AND let's you regenerate red health faster.


I'll fight 20 max aura lucarios before I fight ONE Dark Strider. Jesus.

I remember Dark Phoenix with Level 3 X-Factor in vanilla Marvel 3 was complete bonkers

 

[TDK]

Toryumon Weekly Tournament (41 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: RAIN
2nd: Kirihara
3rd: Choco
4th: Kuro

To give you an idea of how stacked this was:

5th: Abadango
7th: Raito , Nietono
9th: Tsu-
13th: T
17th: KEN

(The other 5th place was Paseriman )

 

[MistressRemilia]

Toryumon Weekly Tournament (41 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: RAIN
2nd: Kirihara
3rd: Choco
4th: Kuro

To give you an idea of how stacked this was:

5th: Abadango
7th: Raito , Nietono
9th: Tsu-
13th: T

(The other 5th place was Kishiru )

Meanwhile, at this very same tournament:
Gigabasu 2-1 Abadango

Gigabasu was the player that sent Abadango to losers, leading into KEN vs Abadango for 17th, so KEN got 17th.

Also noteworthy, Pon got 9th with, as you may be able to guess, Ganondorf , beating Taranito in the process.

 

[BTVolta]

Toryumon Weekly Tournament (41 Entrants) (Japan)

(The other 5th place was Kishiru )

Paseriman got 5th. Kishiru got 9th.

 

[Ulevo]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

 

[verbatim]

Consistent and wide range:
: Uthrow
: Bell --> usmash
: Up b into up b 2 (hammer)


REALLY Specific
: Small % range where you can frame trap Downthrow --> fair --> up b if they air dodge the fair
: The "Gunginir" combo.
:Nair --> up-smash
: Dash attack --> up b rage jank on floaties
: Item infinite's


Mixups/NOT TRUE:
: Back Throw --> Flare Blitz
: Down Throw --> Up Air: this is not true, you have to read their DI (left/right) and whether or not they'll air dodge

 

[TDK]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

has Dsmash - Gordo - Uair, though it can be tricky to set up it is true on connection
has Dthrow Uair (The Razzle Dazzle)
has Any throw -> Can at really late percents
has Nair -> Uair
has Uthrow
has Late Nair > Waft or Uair > Waft or Bike > Waft

Of course, the actual mains of these characters can answer better, this is what I know (Dedede's my third most played character, after my mains, but actual mains would still know better).

Also...

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/857326550420570112

Oisiitofu, Lea, Shiki, Stroder, WaveGuider, and Elexiao (All , Waveguider also uses and Elexiao also uses ) can all be fundraised to attend Greninja Saga, most of them would be making their first overseas appearance and to my knowledge all of them would be making their first Saga appearance.

2GG also mentions more are coming, so I think Some isn't on here because he's already being flown out seperately.

Get your OSFrogs ready, everyone.

 

[adom4]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

Unfortunately Ganon doesn't have anything super reliably outside of raw power because flame choke is techable but he does have some other setups:
* D-throw -> Fair/RAR Bair is a confirm from about 60-90 depending on the character if they don't DI D-throw optimally
* Aerial flame choke can lead into D-smash/F-smash on a good amount of characters depending on their action after air choke (it's an actual 50/50 on )
* Sourspot DA can lead into Fair at around 70-100 but it's rather hard to do on reaction because you need the DA sourspot to confirm into it.
* And of course flame choke has follow ups on about 80% of the roster if they miss the tech

 

[williamsga555]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

For Dedede:

Generally, no. There are some gordo setups that are true, but all of them are highly situational. If gordos could stick to ledge 100% reliably, there would be some edgeguarding confirms, but gordo ledge sticking is...finicky, to put it lightly.

Otherwise, the only reliable setup he has is sour nair→uair. This is 100% true and has a pretty generous window where it works, but landing sour nair cleanly isn't safe. The hitbox is too small, D3 is too horizontally slow to get directly over the opponent reliably, and it's unsafe on block.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

I know that has down throw -> Fair that works at a variety of percents against many characters. This spreadsheet shows the percentages it connects and on what characters.

has down throw -> Uair. This post explains it in great detail.

has late DA -> Uair or Fair at around 80-100% on most foes, though easiest to pull off on heavies.

has late Nair -> Fair at certain ranges.

That's about all I know.

 

[jet56]

Bit off topic, but a couple decent sized AZ tourneys happened over the past week.

Sink or Swim 28, Wednesday April 12 (42 entrants)
http://challonge.com/SOS28Smash4

1st - Mexicutioner
2nd - Coco
3rd - Cybrus
4th - Wulfn

Smashing 4 Discoveries 11, Saturday April 15 (40 Entrants)
http://challonge.com/S4DNR11S

1st - Stroder
2nd - Spearwing
3rd - Silver
4th - Luhtie

May or may not be worth mentioning, but AZ has been getting decent numbers last couple of tournies, with some strong players showing.

Das Koopa

I take it neither of these tournaments made the requirement to be categorized and recorded das koopa? that's fine, but just want to double check and made sure you saw this.

On a different note, coming out of lurker mode for a sec here and saying that rage, while frustrating, really isn't problematic on a regular basis. It's about as wacky as most other mechanics in this game can be. Not to mention, if you take the first stock, then you are sitting on a bunch of rage, so the better player can take advantage of rage and get a 2 stock possibly.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

Doc has DownThrow to Fair on a majority of the cast minus floaties.
However, the combo gets screwed over by Rage fairly easily, but it is possible to get it at earlier % on some characters.

Some members here may believe that Dthrow to Fair only works on about 1/3rd of the cast but the video in which the combo and %s in which Doc's Downthrow to Fair works is outdated & partially wrong. There's a much more complete sheet of Doc's Dthrow to Fair true combo%, i'll link it as soon as i find it.

Edit: Skeeter Mania posted the sheet, everything you need to know about the combo is explained here.

Edit 2: That aside, even though Ik it's only a mixup, Doc has a great Jab and the possibilties of getting Jab 1 2 -> UpB, UpSmash, Dsmash, Forward Smash, and Forward Air by reading the jump out ( Which can be sometimes frametrapped if the opponent airdodges, you just need to autocancel it and land for a Smash or UpB )

 

[The-Technique]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

Palutena has d-throw u-air if opponent doesn't DI, and b-air if they DI away.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

Falco can airborne phantasm to back air within a percent range

Double jab to dtilt isn't true but works

 

[Floor]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

Charizard has Upthrow which is a kill throw by itself; can kill at like 60 of used on a BF, DL, or TAC platform.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

What is it with all the people saying zards up throw is consistent? It is VERY easy to DI and you can live decently long since it's angle is really bad, it's only somewhat useful if you get to the top platform of battlefield and town and city.

 

[Yonder]

I know that has down throw -> Fair that works at a variety of percents against many characters. This spreadsheet shows the percentages it connects and on what characters.

has down throw -> Uair. This post explains it in great detail.

has late DA -> Uair or Fair at around 80-100% on most foes, though easiest to pull off on heavies.

has late Nair -> Fair at certain ranges.

That's about all I know.

In addition, all these characters can get some sort of damage racking from a throw, with probably Doc, Palutena, and DDD having the guarantee to do so at low percents. Pac has dash attack outta d throw too, Falco has something, I think the rest has DI possiblity.

And WFT has squat out of any throws as far as I know, except a very situational u throw to u air.

Speaking of which, i think WFT is starting to take the throne of least talked about smash 4 character, previously held by like, Game and Game and Watch. Does Wii Fit Trainer have any hopes of leaving Low tier? (Like Samus who WILL be next list). Despite WFT's hitboxes being fixed, you can still feel it in the heat of battle at times. Fair, u tilt, and u smash have cost me games before when they whiffed despite being right next to them. And that grab game is virtually worthless with a weak pummel, slow grab, no range, no follow ups...It's virtually Cloud tier, but even Cloud can sometimes get side b out of D throw with bad DI.

But WFT has a beautifully good bair, great jab, a pretty decent f tilt which packs a wallop with decent speed, and a nice damage racking Nair. Soccer ball and dropping it, as seen by John Numbers, is probably the fundamental of WFT play which will create gimps and a nice wall for WFT.

WFT isn't slow moving or attacking...Just feels kinda wonky with hitboxes and doesn't have much reward or easy play.

I'm not an expert on WFT though but thought I'd stimulate discussion for them

 

[outfoxd]

Wario has Fthrow to kill with at mid high percents at least

 

[Floor]

What is it with all the people saying zards up throw is consistent? It is VERY easy to DI and you can live decently long since it's angle is really bad, it's only somewhat useful if you get to the top platform of battlefield and town and city.

If you're going to refer to what i said, you can @ me so we can discuss. I never ever ever said it was consistent. Pretty much all kill throws can be DI'ed against well but that still doesn't stop it from being a throw that kills. And also, yes, I was mainly mentioning it's absurd use on TAC and BF/DL

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Wario has Fthrow to kill with at mid high percents at least

Wario also has a handful of waft setups and waft combos. It's waftless Wario that has killing issues

 

[outfoxd]

Wario also has a handful of waft setups and waft combos. It's waftless Wario that has killing issues

Yeah. Waftless they're just expecting his stubby grab or a stray f tilt or smash.

 

[MistressRemilia]

In addition, all these characters can get some sort of damage racking from a throw, with probably Doc, Palutena, and DDD having the guarantee to do so at low percents. Pac has dash attack outta d throw too, Falco has something, I think the rest has DI possiblity.

And WFT has squat out of any throws as far as I know, except a very situational u throw to u air.

Speaking of which, i think WFT is starting to take the throne of least talked about smash 4 character, previously held by like, Game and Game and Watch. Does Wii Fit Trainer have any hopes of leaving Low tier? (Like Samus who WILL be next list). Despite WFT's hitboxes being fixed, you can still feel it in the heat of battle at times. Fair, u tilt, and u smash have cost me games before when they whiffed despite being right next to them. And that grab game is virtually worthless with a weak pummel, slow grab, no range, no follow ups...It's virtually Cloud tier, but even Cloud can sometimes get side b out of D throw with bad DI.

But WFT has a beautifully good bair, great jab, a pretty decent f tilt which packs a wallop with decent speed, and a nice damage racking Nair. Soccer ball and dropping it, as seen by John Numbers, is probably the fundamental of WFT play which will create gimps and a nice wall for WFT.

WFT isn't slow moving or attacking...Just feels kinda wonky with hitboxes and doesn't have much reward or easy play.

I'm not an expert on WFT though but thought I'd stimulate discussion for them

It's just that Wii Fit Trainer is generally a character that people don't know much about, and i would be lying if i told you that my Wii Fit knowledge is sufficient to talk in depth about her. I think the issue of Wii Fit Trainer lies in the fact that a fair amount of her tools end up being situational or specific or generally awkward & unpractical to use. The ledge zoning Wii Fit is capable of, as well as her zoning pressure through Sun Salutation & Header airdodge cancels. That aside, i can't really think of many consistent & reliable tools that Wii Fit has. She does have a respectable advantage state, but her starters are extremely awkward, with rather poor range & lack of shield safety for some of them ( I don't think Nair is safe, reverse Ftilt certainly isn't ).
Killing can also turn out to be pretty awkward at times, even though Deep Breathing makes things a little better with her becoming threatening to the opponent's shield with an okay kill throw at disposal, as well a a decently safe Ftilt becoming stronger. I believe that she has pretty neat tricks with her zoning to overwhelm others offstage, with Header being able to force a more linear recovery if they're far away, making edgeguarding easier. Her disadvantage is alright, i think?

That' s all i have to say about Wii Fit Trainer really, i don't know much about her matchups aside from the fact that dealing with small characters seems to be a pain for her, an that the rest of the cast is decent enough for her, but usually not stellar. So yeah, she's okay, but this does not seem to be sufficient to step outside of the Low Tier. I'd gladly see more representation & more discussions about her though, as she may have enough uniqueness to have a niche in the metagame. I'm not some kind of universally right person about things as well, so maybe this awkwardness i've been talking about may turn out to be a good thing in the hands of a competent player. I don't know honestly.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

For Falco not reallyh he does have D tilt to RAR Uair to bair but can be ignored with DI away if you get hit by it but Falco risking his butt alot of the time soooooo.

 

[Pyrover]

I'm not an especially great player or anything, but I've secondaried Wii Fit for 2 years now. She has the capacity to be a mid tier, but with John Numbers not traveling and most people not bothering to learn her, she lacks any whorthwhile results.

Her frame data is solid on most non-smash attacks, with F-Tilt in particular being very fast. She has a respectable camping game with her strong ledge options, healing, and projectiles. She also has a pretty good disadvantage state since she doesn't mind the ledge and actually wants to be offstage in some cases. Her damage racking capabilities are actually quite good, but she has to take risks to confirm her better combos. Short hop hair can easily lead into 40-50%, or possibly even a kill, but it's telegraphed and unsafe on block.

Her main weaknesses are that her throws are just for positioning between 5-130%, issues with small characters, an advantage that's hard to start if people won't chase you offstage, and wonky hitboxes that aren't always in the most useful places.

Her matchups are weird. Very few characters can beat her at zoning (only Villager, Olimar, and maybe Megaman), but she can't really keep people out with her lack of disjoints. Fastfallers get eaten alive if she touches them, but she's just as easily combo'd. Reflectors are problematic in general, and anybody that can block her attempts to grab ledge without going offstage is problematic.

Basically, she's a character with a very underdeveloped metagame. Soccer ball tricks can be fantastic ways to control the neutral. She forces approaches, but doesn't have a lot to capitalize in close range outside of nair and F-Tilt. Her moves are plenty strong, but she won't kill below 130% without deep breathing or a hard read for a smash. Her offstage shenanigans are incredible, as are her combos. However, she doesn't seem to have great ways to start her game. As such, she mostly relies on throwing things at you to slowly rack up damage, and then using grab and F-Tilt to get you off her when she can't do that. Her approach game needs to be better refined, because she struggles too much if her projectiles don't scare you. Furthermore, people need to work on ways that she can start combos more creatively. I'm certain that she has fair spike setups or soccer ball confirms that don't see use yet, so it's a matter of looking deeper into her toolkit.

So she needs better combo starters, and a better CQC game beyond short hop nair. And then she needs some results. Those developments would help her rise to at least mid tier, but as it stands, her metagame has stagnated.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

A few of Charizards neutral tools kill at reasonable perfects while up throw is an amazing kill throw
Falco has dtilt confirms, jab > up smash mixups, dair things, and bair in general
DH has confirms out of Can
Samus has a lot of things, soft f tilt for example is a confirm for charge shot regardless of how you tech

Don't know much about everyone else

 

[BTVolta]

Charizard has Upthrow which is a kill throw by itself; can kill at like 60 of used on a BF, DL, or TAC platform.

With good DI you won't be dying at these percents. Down and away murders the launch speed and gives you the best DI. In training mode Mario is living at 120% on the top plat. Of coarse Zard is very much a character that loves, abuses and is designed to use rage which makes it better, but you get the point

Wii Fit stuff

I'd say there's no chance of her leaving low tier. She possibly doesn't win a single MU(DDD, Ganon, Miis are generally seen as positive, but could honesly be even), and her bad MUs are incredibly bad. She's awkward to play, unpopular and bad leading to a small playerbase of low skill which itself leads to a slow metagame advancement.

Even her good qualities aren't so good likely due to having deep breathing choke her potential as a balancing point. Bair does a nice 13.5%(16.2 in DB), but the sweetspot is 24% SMALLER then ZELDA'S lighting kicks. She thankfully has good mobility to make it somewhat work. Oh and it has 20 frames of LL slapped on it, so you have to space it well on shield to make it safe-ish. Her Jab buries and allows for unique follow ups, but it's short ranged and hit's high while being frame 4(back hit frame 5) and only has a tiny hitbox under her foot that actually buries, so smaller or floatier character generally don't have to worry about it. Header setups are pretty good, but require a bit of space to get started.

Her grab game is awful with Up throw Uair which only works at 0 for the most part. Other throws lead to nothing but positional advantage which she likes, but it's still a non threatening grab. Up throw does kill but the percents are atrocious without DB. About 180 on average ceilings without it and 150 with it, while max rage drops it to 130 w/o and 110 with.

And then there's Deep Breathing which is actually a ridiculous move that increases her parameters by 20%(damage, walk speed, walk acceleration, a bit of survive ability somehow ) and heals 2%, but it only lasts for about 8 seconds making her susceptible to camping due to lack of approach game. So then all those good points about DB tend to go out the window once people figure out not to engage. DB also allows her to mix up her landing since it stalls and allows her to instantly change her direction along with giving her another option on the ledge with a ledge jump DB letting her instantly land on stage.

Most of what I've said has been really negative, but there has been some metagame advancements in the works for a while now. It's mostly more header cancels, but down throw can lead to jab lock set ups on platforms at 0-10% on most characters along with bFtilt at 11-20% depending on weight and Utilt at mid percents. Wii Fit can get some nice damage and even kill with the right set up, but it doesn't really remedy her core issues. Just make her a bit more potent.

TL;DR Wii Fit is a linear character that does have strengths(camping, damage racking, survive abillity), but crippling weaknesses(no approach, linear, bad frame data, low range, ETC), unpopularity, and difficulty in play leave her in low tier with no real chance in making it to mid tiers.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

It's just that Wii Fit Trainer is generally a character that people don't know much about, and i would be lying if i told you that my Wii Fit knowledge is sufficient to talk in depth about her. I think the issue of Wii Fit Trainer lies in the fact that a fair amount of her tools end up being situational or specific or generally awkward & unpractical to use. The ledge zoning Wii Fit is capable of, as well as her zoning pressure through Sun Salutation & Header cancels. That aside, i can't really think of many consistent & reliable tools that Wii Fit has. She does have a respectable advantage state, but her starters are extremely awkward, with rather poor range & lack of shield safety for some of them ( I don't think Nair is safe, reverse Ftilt certainly isn't ).
Killing can also turn out to be pretty awkward at times, even though Deep Breathing makes things a little better with her becoming threatening to the opponent's shield with an okay kill throw at disposal, as well a a decently safe Ftilt becoming stronger. I believe that she has pretty neat tricks with her zoning to overwhelm others offstage, with Header being able to force a more linear recovery if they're far away, making edgeguarding easier. Her disadvantage is alright, i think?

That' s all i have to say about Wii Fit Trainer really, i don't know much about her matchups aside from the fact that dealing with small characters seems to be a pain for her, an that the rest of the cast is decent enough for her, but usually not stellar. So yeah, she's okay, but this does not seem to be sufficient to step outside of the Low Tier. I'd gladly see more representation & more discussions about her though, as she may have enough uniqueness to have a niche in the metagame. I'm not some kind of universally right person about things as well, so maybe this awkwardness i've been talking about may turn out to be a good thing in the hands of a competent player. I don't know honestly.

As a relatively noobish Wii Fit main, I can say this all sounds about right. I would argue though, that it is less that Wii Fit has very situational moves, and more that she has a lot of moves that can be beaten out by a variety of tactics, meaning most of the cast has at least some sort of answer for everything she has, and she struggles for different reasons in different matches.

To start off with, while WFT has one of the best projectile pressure games against certain characters who don't have good answers to it, there are a lot of characters who can work around this, either by means of reflectors/absorbers, stronger projectiles that trump Sun Salutation, faster projectiles that can interrupt charging, projectiles with hurtboxes that eat hits with less commitment, or in a few dreaded cases (like Kirby), crouching under them. So good projectile zoning on paper, but with many different workarounds, and WFT doesn't have a strong approach game if people force you to.

WFT also has a relatively good footsie game. She hits hard, her hitboxes use weird angles to exploit potential blind spots, and her few combos do ridiculous damage, making her really good at dealing with slower characters that she can dance around and avoid their attacks. However a poor grab game means character with strong OOS options tend to do well by merit of WFT just rarely wanting to grab except on a read. Also, in the case of many small character (like Kirby) WFT's attacks just flat out can't hit them due to a large gap between the stage and the hitbox for F-tilt/Jab 1/Grab

Advantage state is... fine. WFT doesn't have many true combos, but her high damage moves mean she still does a considerable bit of work even on reads, and bigger, heavier targets are easier to combo for longer. However, WFT struggling to kill means even lightweights (like Kirby) usually live for a long time.

Disadvantage... could be worse. WFT doesn't have any good "get off me" moves due to the precise hitboxes on her faster aerials, but after getting knocked around she's very good at retreating to the ledge to reset, especially against slower characters. Only issue opponents with long combo strings (like Kirby) will get a lot of damage in first.

WFT does thrive off-stage. Three spikes, a long recovery, and varied angles of projectile pressure make her very scary for characters with poor recoveries but again, some issues. All of her aerials that are useful off-stage have an FAF of 45+, so if she misses any attack you can usually slip past, granting an advantage to characters with unpredictable specials or multiple jumps. Other floaty characters who have spikes of their own (like Kirby) can also be a pain, as once you've been hit downward even by a weak spike WFT has to come back up with Super Hoops, which doesn't hit above her, meaning you'll just get spiked again.

So, long story short, F&#! Kirby.

 

[|RK|]

I wanna clear up a misconception on Palutena (because I only recently learned myself) - dthrow uair is true regardless of DI on most characters. While rage messes it up, Diddy is the only one that escapes it with DI away.

 

[BSP]

verbatim no Fair -> Key mention for Pac-Man confirm?

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt's frisbee kill confirms hard, but it scales from medium risk to high risk.

It true combos into dair, uair, bair, at higher percents it frame traps with trick shot, and with rage it can just true combo into itself as low as 60% to kill. I've actually gotten three in a row > uair vs Donkey Kong's and Bowser's. It's a sad matchup for them.

There's also ledge dthrow > uair. Like other characters, if duck hunt dthrows on the ledge there's less knockback. He can set this up either by pivot grabbing a roll, or standard.

On certain fast fallers (sheik, ryu, falcon) raw Dthrow > Bair is a thing too (or uair if they don't di away)

Duck hunt's has issues killing, but the real issue is even the SMALLEST punish of just getting grabbed and thrown offstage is a huge issue for him. In addition to a poor recovery, he has poor ledge options too. (despite having above average ledge jump data) And unlike pacman, he has trouble developing his zone from disadvantage state.

 

[The-Technique]

I wanna clear up a misconception on Palutena (because I only recently learned myself) - dthrow uair is true regardless of DI on most characters. While rage messes it up, Diddy is the only one that escapes it with DI away.

If it is true on most characters then DI must at least make the KO percent window smaller. A lot of the time I'll d-throw my opponent and they're nowhere near close enough for uair to connect, then a little later I'll d-throw again and they end up at the perfect distance for uair.

 

[Jaguar360]

Consistent and wide range:
: Uthrow
: Bell --> usmash
: Up b into up b 2 (hammer)


REALLY Specific
: Small % range where you can frame trap Downthrow --> fair --> up b if they air dodge the fair
: The "Gunginir" combo.
:Nair --> up-smash
: Dash attack --> up b rage jank on floaties
: Item infinite's


Mixups/NOT TRUE:
: Back Throw --> Flare Blitz
: Down Throw --> Up Air: this is not true, you have to read their DI (left/right) and whether or not they'll air dodge

You can't airdodge out of D-throw U-air if Zelda times it right. It is just a DI mixup with right execution.

I have a question for those of you who are familiar with or main these characters:



Do any of these characters have reliable, consistent, safe kill confirms? Either out of a grab or a set up that is low to medium risk?

Zelda has close D-tilt -> U-air in addition to the D-throw U-air 50/50.

Zard doesn't exactly have reliable kill confirms outside of outright killing with u-throw/b-throw/f-throw, but Jab2 -> Fly or U-smash will generally work well (you could see Fire catch people with the latter a good amount at Icarus III last weekend). As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of his neutral or often-used tools like d-tilt, f-air and even jab 3 will kill at reasonable percents. Having that trait + kill throws is really good. Same can be said for Doctor Mario to a lesser degree.

 

[Y2Kay]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/857326550420570112

Oisiitofu, Lea, Shiki, Stroder, WaveGuider, and Elexiao (All , Waveguider also uses and Elexiao also uses ) can all be fundraised to attend Greninja Saga, most of them would be making their first overseas appearance and to my knowledge all of them would be making their first Saga appearance.

2GG also mentions more are coming, so I think Some isn't on here because he's already being flown out seperately.

Get your OSFrogs ready, everyone.

He got the palletes for the gren players mixed AND miss spelled Elexiao. >_<

 

[Trifroze]

Good gosh, the fact that you can see something from a certain viewpoint if you try really hard doesn't mean that viewpoint is a reasonable one.

Saying that rage punishes players for not being able to get the kill ignores the reality of getting kills in Smash 4. A reasonable kill percent, i.e. somewhere most characters can get kills without taking really dumb risks, is around 100-120%. Rage starts at 35 and ends at 150, so at ~110% you've already taken most of the benefit rage has to offer. If rage started after 100% then this "punishes for not killing early enough" argument would make at least some sense.

Rage as it exists now is a comeback mechanic that makes killing easier for the losing player and then makes comboing harder for them when the opponent respawns at 0% because in most situations they are now the losing player (not sure if this part is intended but in practice it slightly increases the rubberband factor).

Stop overthinking rage. Seeing it differently from the majority just because you can doesn't make you smarter or more special. Rage is uncompetitive and the only good thing about it is that Sheik isn't super good and that a few heavies traditionally bad in Smash now have a fighting chance. But then those characters are DK and Bowser who no one wants to play against in bracket. Well ****.

 

[TDK]

He got the palletes for the gren players mixed AND miss spelled Elexiao. >_<

I was aware of Elexiao's name being misspelled, but I wasn't aware about the palettes. Now I'm interested, which palettes do they actually use?

 

[Y2Kay]

I was aware of Elexiao's name being misspelled, but I wasn't aware about the palettes. Now I'm interested, which palettes do they actually use?

waveguider's and elexiao's skins are swapped.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What do you guys currently think of Olimar?

 

[Nobie]

I pointed this out a couple of threads ago, but even the earliest fighting games had "comeback mechanics." Street Fighter II, that granddaddy of the modern fighting game, secretly made it so that your characters did slightly more damage at low health. Fatal Fury 2 had desperation moves that only worked at low health.

But let's say that Rage is a comeback mechanic. Is that really "inherently uncompetitive?" You can argue that it is, simply because it "rewards the losing player," but one thing that's only been skimmed on the surface in previous posts but not highlighted is just how differently Rage affects all the difference characters in Smash 4. The fact is that part of a character's competitive design is how much they're affected by Rage.

It's not just that Bowser has this crazy early-kill combo, it's that he's got all this survivability. If you think of a character's health as a resource, Bowser has more of it, and it's what encourages a player to take risks with him. Bowser can handle it. Because he's so heavy, he also can stay in rage for LONGER. This means more chances for a comeback, more chances for the opponent to mess up.

But characters like Bowser are extreme examples. Let's look at Mewtwo. Does Mewtwo benefit from Rage? The answer is, as any Mewtwo player will tell you, that it's a severe double-edged sword. Mewtwo with Rage is a monster and a half because a lot of his attacks have high base knockback + high damage, and he can finish opponents early with a variety of moves. However, being the second lightest character in the game, Mewtwo really only takes advantage of Rage if the opponent is too hesitant to commit to a kill option, or perhaps has knocked Mewtwo out of a reliable range for a kill confirm. Even so, there's a cap on how much Mewtwo can rely on Rage because he theoretically shouldn't be long for this world.

The result of a lot of 1v1 interactions with Rage taken into account is that priorities have to shift throughout a match, and I think it can seem very counter-intuitive to players who are used to "If I stick to my game plan as it is, and do the reliable thing, I'll be sure to win." When your opponent is at a lower percent, you can afford to take more risks. If they're at a higher percent but you've still got little damage on you, then barring the really extreme cases (Bowser, Lucario, Rosalina, etc.), you still have wiggle room to take risks.

Someone said earlier something along the lines of, "If Rage means hitting the opponent with a dtilt as a punish means they get access to a kill combo, should I not dtilt? That's dumb." But why is it dumb? Just because we've been taught to eke out damage wherever we can?

I've been playing Fire Emblem Heroes lately, a way different game of course. In it, certain abilities are only active when a character is under a certain amount of health, while other abilities only work when a character is above a certain amount of health. And while FE Heroes isn't competitive in that true multiplayer doesn't exist, even if it were competitive I don't think that the former abilities would be automatically considered "anti-competitive," while the latter would be, I don't know, "extra-competitive?" They're just different mechanics and features you have to exploit and try to work around at the same time.

And when you think about it, the higher damage = fly further aspect of Smash is itself arguably a "comeback mechanic." You get hit further, which means combos have a harder time connecting, which gives you more opportunities to escape things.

Actually, that brings up another question: If a game actually punished you extra hard for losing things, would it be considered more competitive than a game that didn't?

 

[OverTime]

What do you guys currently think of Olimar?

I don't.