Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

WaveGuider confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga

Holy cow Australia is fast

 

[|RK|]

So, ZeRo was explaining why he doesn't think Diddy is super amazing AND why he picked up Lucina.

He says it's because he doesn't feel like Diddy is amazing at pressing an advantage (e.g., if he catches someone shielding on a platform, all he gets is Monkey Flip), and he feels like Diddy has no X-Factor. So it's like - if he's behind, it can be very difficult to make it up. Lucina, on the other hand, can break a shield if she catches someone shielding too long. She can die, come back and hit her opponent with an fsmash at 60% and even up the game, etc.

That's in line with his answer to "which is more fun, Diddy or Lucina" on stream the other day. He says they're both fun, but Diddy can be frustrating to play in tournament sometimes.

 

[Monete]

Olimar is top 15, much better if played agresive but the hardest character to use that way. Doesnt have super bad m.u.

Shuton and Myran are the best using his toolls. Wont ever be popular as you have to play his disadvantage much harder than any other character on his level.

 

[NairWizard]

Sounds like the reasoning Nairo gave for switching to ZSS from Pit way back in the day.

Take notes, folks! Advantage state.

 

[Rizen]

@ last page:

RK mentioned Palutena's Uair combos. Thank you. People assume bad characters can't have nice things. Palu's Uair is a contender for the best in the game. It's huge, disjointed and powerful. Palu has scary options in advantage from below.

IMO WFT is in the same boat as characters like Pit in the sense that she's solid and well rounded but doesn't have anything scary or unusually good high tier MUs. WFT is worse than Pit and plays differently of course. Like all SSB4 characters, she can wreck in the hands of a really good player like John Numbers and she has creative possibilities with header ball. I've watched JNumbers and thought "wow, that is a cool use of header I never would have thought of". You have to think of SSB4 low tier as "somebody has to be here" and WFT is simply worse than mid-tiers.

Olimar was looking good but hasn't seen the spotlight lately. It's kind of hard to judge him when he has little exposure. He's at the lower end of high tier imo.

@ people complaining about getting haymakered by heavies, look at the other side: sheik dances circles around you, Fair strings you 3 or 4 times offstage and gimps you. Well damn, that sucks. Marth or other characters who can oppress your landings get you in the air and you'll take 50% easily. ZSS grabs you and that's that. It feels like heavies have insane reward for winning neutral, and that's not wrong, but they get wrecked by losing neutral too.

 

[Myollnir]

@ last page:

RK mentioned Palutena's Uair combos. Thank you. People assume bad characters can't have nice things. Palu's D-Throw is a contender for the best in the game. It's huge, disjointed and powerful. Palu has scary options in advantage from below.

Fixed.

Palutena's U-air is powerful & disjointed, yes, but its landing lag is 24 (which is huge), it has a slow FAF (52), and a TERRIBLE autocancel window (<64). It doesn't even autocancel from a FH and you have to do another move before landing so that you don't suffer the 24 frames of lag.

Also, D-Throw into U-air is indeed a thing even with DI. I know Kirby dies at 88+% from that.
In fact, I was extremely surprised that it worked even with DI, but the % is strict and rage messes it up. I know it can also be a 50-50, and spinning animation can also help on some characters.

 

[Rizen]

Fixed.

Palutena's U-air is powerful & disjointed, yes, but its landing lag is 24 (which is huge), it has a slow FAF (52), and a TERRIBLE autocancel window (<64). It doesn't even autocancel from a FH and you have to do another move before landing so that you don't suffer the 24 frames of lag.

Also, D-Throw into U-air is indeed a thing even with DI. I know Kirby dies at 88+% from that.
In fact, I was extremely surprised that it worked even with DI, but the % is strict and rage messes it up. I know it can also be a 50-50, and spinning animation can also help on some characters.

That's a good point, it needs a good setup, but I do think her Uair is really good. It has slow FAF/auto cancel but also attacks frames 8-26 (except frame 24 for some reason) and has great reach above and to the sides.
https://gfycat.com/FrigidSmoothAplomadofalcon
It's one of the aerials you shouldn't use when you have to land but with a hitbox that big that outlasts dodges it's incredible for killing. It's just not a juggling Uair.

 

[Nu~]

Stop overthinking rage. Seeing it differently from the majority just because you can doesn't make you smarter or more special.

Well, shoot.

And here I thought I was the messiah themself for sharing my perspective.

Silly me .

 

[Bowserboy3]

In regards to confirms, actually has a lot he can confirm off of his Dash Attack, be it sweetspot at lower percents and sourspot at higher percents; the latter KO on a more consistent basis due to not needing things like rage and stuff.

That and he has a lot of viable 50/50 setups, most of which can come off of Flame Choke.

There's a really good YT channel that focuses on Ganon tech, info etc. I can't remember the name of the channel, but he's done things on Nair and Dash Attack from what I've seen.

To be honest, I don't feel Ganon is as bad as many people assume; I certainly think he isn't bottom 5, and to be honest, they way I've seen Ganon played, I could personally see him as high as 10th from bottom (essentially, bump him up to above Wii Fit on the current 4BR Tier list), but I digress. He still has many issues, which I can't ignore, which will keep him from ever being better than a lower tiered character/character ranked in the bottom quarter, but damn I wish everybody had an actual good Ganon to play against. He's got a lot of options people don't know about.

Then again, I probably have bias seeing as I am friends with, team with, and play every week with the best Ganon in the UK; that and have seen and been on the receiving end of almost everything Ganon has to offer too many times to count.

It's hard to explain the best way to play Ganon; I'll have to ask him how he plays and what goes through his head. He's really good at reads and covering options based on said read, and it kind of shows all of us in our area that Ganon can simply rely on getting bodied all game and then getting 2 simple reads and you're even/winning.

Example; last night at our weekly, he was playing arguably the best (if not top 2) player currently in our area; a Yoshi player. Game 3, first stock, Yoshi won neutral around 6 times, got hits, confirms etc, all good. Ganon won neutral twice, once with a Dthrow Nair, another with Dash Attack Fair and he was already winning.

The next time he won neutral, he confirmed an Fsmash off of a Flame Choke getup read, and Yoshi lost his stock.

This is nothing new to us, but I really wish people got more exposure to what Ganon has up his sleeve in comparison to other lower ranked characters.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

What do you guys currently think of Olimar?

A bit like Pit in the sense that you have to have a good understanding of the neutral and the character to play him well. If the meta wasn't shifting towards extending your advantage state we would probably be seeing him a lot more.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Ganon has a fear factor that forces you to keep looking at the way your opponent plays, probably more than for 75% of the cast.
The raw power of every single move he has (even his Jab is strong dammit) forces your opponent to either try to contest you as safely as possible, which lets you close the gap between you and your opponent, or dance around you, which leaves them open for a hit...

But Ganon generally has trouble against Projectile users because he has no real way of going through them. He has a decent recovery, but can get hit really hard once he gets offstage. That forces you to start tanking some hits if you can, because simply walking towards your opponent already makes them go into full alert mode.

That's from the small experience I had facing & playing Ganon online, so if anything isn't right, feel free to correct me. My Ganon is pretty bad...

 

[The-Technique]

I think it needs to be stated again that being bottom 5 doesn't necessarily mean being terrible, just that the character is less good compared to the rest of the cast.

In Ganon's case, he does have some good traits, but you're gonna have to do some explaining in order to place him above the likes of Pac Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr, and Falco.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Myollnir

it doesn't really matter that it can't AC out of fullhop because before you land you can either jump or cancel the lag with fair which has way less landing lag.(saved me many times because the oponent tought he could punish me now)
You can't do something about it out of shorthop tough.
It outranges like 95% of all the dair, does ok damage and kills.

Other than dthrow to upair which is true on every character expect for diddy(some with spinning animation) (ok rage messes with it) you can do dthrow to bair(isn't as affected by rage) which also kills if you are decently near the ledge and confirms longer than dthrow upair.
More unreliable: Dthrow to airdodgeread upsmash(if opponent jumps away you can follow them with a doublejump upair instead)
Jab to jumpcancel upsmash can be nasty as well for the opponent. This is not true of course but a mixup at about 110% because jab starts to launch them higher. Jab to nair is nice as a mixup as well.

Oh and btw regardless of rage dthrow upair works everytime on the ledge because everybody fears the evil offstage and di's in lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganon is a character that almost completely falls apart when you play around exactly what he wants. He's bottom tier for a reason. He definitely has an eminent fear factor to him, but that's only if you let him scare you. He has great edgeguarding and reward off reads/conversions (mainly off DA), but his terrible neutral and approach options will hold him back against almost everyone in the cast.

For example, take the v MU. Imagine these are two high level players of their character fighting each other. How is Ganon going to reliably deal with my retreating fair & bair, particularly in Buster? Or my mobility and movement options in Speed and Jump? Or that I can practically run away and camp by switching between Jump and Shield whenever I have a lead? How is Ganon going to ever recover against a Shulk proficient in his edgeguarding?

 

[adom4]

Ganon has a fear factor that forces you to keep looking at the way your opponent plays, probably more than for 75% of the cast.
The raw power of every single move he has (even his Jab is strong dammit) forces your opponent to either try to contest you as safely as possible, which lets you close the gap between you and your opponent, or dance around you, which leaves them open for a hit...

But Ganon generally has trouble against Projectile users because he has no real way of going through them. He has a decent recovery, but can get hit really hard once he gets offstage. That forces you to start tanking some hits if you can, because simply walking towards your opponent already makes them go into full alert mode.

That's from the small experience I had facing & playing Ganon online, so if anything isn't right, feel free to correct me. My Ganon is pretty bad...

Projectile users are generally not his biggest issue because stuff like dash attack and wizkick can close gaps relatively well, he has bigger problems with heavy pressure because his OOS is very poor & characters that can edgeguard him for free.

Ganon is a character that almost completely falls apart when you play around exactly what he wants. He's bottom tier for a reason. He definitely has an eminent fear factor to him, but that's only if you let him scare you. He has great edgeguarding and reward off reads/conversions (mainly off DA), but his terrible neutral and approach options will hold him back against almost everyone in the cast.

For example, take the v MU. Imagine these are two high level players of their character fighting each other. How is Ganon going to reliably deal with my retreating fair & bair, particularly in Buster? Or my mobility and movement options in Speed and Jump? Or that I can practically run away and camp by switching between Jump and Shield whenever I have a lead? How is Ganon going to ever recover against a Shulk proficient in his edgeguarding?

I play vs a good Shulk relatively often and while it's def a losing MU for Ganon i don't feel like it's terrible at all.
I will give you the edgeguards it's definitely the hardest part in this MU but other than edgeguards Shulk is not that good at killing Ganondorf and smash art is near worthless vs Ganon because it makes everything stupidly unsafe vs him.
While Ganon still gets outranged because lol Shulk he still outranges him on the ground for the most part because his D-tilt is enormous & dash attack/wizkick punish bad Fairs/Bairs & from there he wants to juggle Shulk as hard as he can with DA/Uair/Wizkicks.

Flame choke is also relatively good on Shulk because Ganon gets D-tilt/F-tilt on missed techs & Shulk's techroll is mediocre so it's not too hard to chase if he does tech well.

 

[FullMoon]

Also...

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/857326550420570112

Oisiitofu, Lea, Shiki, Stroder, WaveGuider, and Elexiao (All , Waveguider also uses and Elexiao also uses ) can all be fundraised to attend Greninja Saga, most of them would be making their first overseas appearance and to my knowledge all of them would be making their first Saga appearance.

2GG also mentions more are coming, so I think Some isn't on here because he's already being flown out seperately.

Get your OSFrogs ready, everyone.

IIRC Somé won't be able to go, or at least that's what I've been told.

And I have to say it would be rather funny if Waveguider ended up using more WFT than Greninja at Gren Saga.

 

[Rizen]

How is Ganon going to reliably deal with my retreating fair & bair, particularly in Buster?

Or my mobility and movement options in Speed and Jump?

Or that I can practically run away and camp by switching between Jump and Shield whenever I have a lead?

How is Ganon going to ever recover against a Shulk proficient in his edgeguarding?

Powershield.

Hope you're playing on a stage smaller than Temple and work with the stage control Shulk relinquishes by jumping around.

Grab/command grab shield arts and try to knock Shulk offstage.

The same way Ganon recovers vs all disjoints, hope Uair hits, possible sideB fakeout and prayer.

 

[Iron Kraken]

What do you guys currently think of Olimar?

Top 15 character easily.

I'm not sure most people realize just how good Shuton's results have been. Arguably, only Kirihara has produced better results among Japanese players in the last several months (relative to attendance). And I don't really hold the fact that only one player is getting such incredible results with Olimar against the character, because Olimar always struck me as one of those characters who was low-key really good, but just doesn't have many great players interested in using him. Hell, I think in truth he might even be better than characters like Mario and Fox, but he's never going to get the overall results of those characters because he's never going to have their frequency of use.

 

[The-Technique]

He says it's because he doesn't feel like Diddy is amazing at pressing an advantage (e.g., if he catches someone shielding on a platform, all he gets is Monkey Flip), and he feels like Diddy has no X-Factor. So it's like - if he's behind, it can be very difficult to make it up. Lucina, on the other hand, can break a shield if she catches someone shielding too long. She can die, come back and hit her opponent with an fsmash at 60% and even up the game, etc.

I find that very interesting. Diddy always struck me as a character that's never truly "behind" as long as he can wear down the opponent with banana shenanigans and guaranteed conversions from d-tilt and grab.

 

[TDK]

Stroder has been fully funded for 2GGC: Greninja saga.

 

[Bigbomb2]

What do you guys currently think of Olimar?

Very solid, even when the opponent knows the MU. I don't know really where to put him on a tier list, but he's upper levels for sure. He can rack up a lot of damage safely, and can jump between aggression and defensive play well. Being light with oddly easy-to-juggle attributes, and a linear recovery hurt him some, but everyone has to have a couple flaws, right?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

He shouldn't downplay getting a monkeyflip on an shielding oppoenent. Does like 15% damage thats pretty solid.

 

[chaos11011]

He shouldn't downplay getting a monkeyflip on an shielding oppoenent. Does like 15% damage thats pretty solid.

Not to mention the stage control you gain. Catch a flip grab on someone on a Battlefield platform and as long as they were at mid percents or higher, you're looking at a Diddy covering ledge against a recovering opponent shortly after.

 

[|RK|]

He shouldn't downplay getting a monkeyflip on an shielding oppoenent. Does like 15% damage thats pretty solid.

True, but using his example, that's 15% when it could be a stock. Probably even more frustrating when you're playing from behind.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Tsu continues the trend of Japanese players being superb when it comes to making charts.

まじめなキャラダイヤ、一応左右差ありです。
Lucario MU chart
my opinion from my experience😀 pic.twitter.com/OZOo4v0Amr

— Tsu (@tkmtbs) April 27, 2017

 

[my_T]

True, but using his example, that's 15% when it could be a stock. Probably even more frustrating when you're playing from behind.

using what example?

 

[TDK]

Tsu continues the trend of Japanese players being superb when it comes to making charts.

まじめなキャラダイヤ、一応左右差ありです。
Lucario MU chart
my opinion from my experience😀 pic.twitter.com/OZOo4v0Amr

— Tsu (@tkmtbs) April 27, 2017

Why is Wario that bad? Considering his weak kill power without Waft, I'd have thought it'd be better for Lucario.

 

[Luigi player]

True, but using his example, that's 15% when it could be a stock. Probably even more frustrating when you're playing from behind.

To be fair only 2 characters can somewhat reliably/safely do that (Marth and Lucina).
DKs sideB almost always leaves them with a tiny bit of shield left and in the end you'll just end up trying to chase them down while they're running away or attacking to regain shield. It's also so laggy that most of the time you'll just get punished as well.

Limit Cross Slash could be another contender since the opponent will be scared of uair as well, but that's only really if the opponent is at KO-% from Cross Slash, otherwise it isn't as scary and they have no reason to keep shielding if it would break.

It's great to even have such a tool as Diddys sideB which can be pretty safe to try to catch someone in shield from the air.

But I agree with Zero. Diddy takes time to build up % and him being great combo-food makes it very annoying to ever get hit.
He has a nice neutral and can play somewhat safely with bananas, but I still think Zero is just outplaying his opponents most of the time / or they just don't react/pre-react correctly to counter some of Diddys stuff.

The one big thing Diddy has going for him is his dtilt stuff. It's a mostly reliable and safe poke that can take stocks at higher %, which is pretty dumb.
Dtilt and even fair can be scary enough for people to stay in shield and get grabbed instead, where Diddy has a decent reward from as well and sets him back up in a great position (to pull another banana and get stagecontrol while the opponent might have to try to get back down).

(I still think they should nerf his dtilt a bit by giving it more KBG so it still combos at low %, but at high % you don't get a kinda free usmash or even fsmash. This would make Diddy much less scary once you're at like 100+.)

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why is Wario that bad? Considering his weak kill power without Waft, I'd have thought it'd be better for Lucario.

@Poisonous made an excellent post on it a week or two ago. Check his history.

 

[|RK|]

Why is Wario that bad? Considering his weak kill power without Waft, I'd have thought it'd be better for Lucario.

Probably Waft shenanigans. It's notable that Dog w/ Hips (who has played Reflex) thinks it's 55:45 Wario, and not that bad.

But MU charts are personal experience anyways, so ye - probably Waft shenanigans. Similarly, DK is b/c Hikaru lol.

 

[TDK]

Similarly, DK is b/c Hikaru lol.

 

[Floor]

Hell, I think in truth he might even be better than characters like Mario and Fox, but he's never going to get the overall results of those characters because he's never going to have their frequency of use.

Exactly why I hardly touch results with a ten foot stick when I make tier lists. Frankly results are just about the last thing I consider. Olimar is currently 27th on the last disaster of a tier list... I think Olimar is better than 27th for sure but, theorywise, I would imagine he struggles with disjoints and rushdowns. As someone who mains a swordie, characters like Mario, Ness, Yoshi, and Olimar are easy pickings. I think Olimar is a perfect example of why the last tier list missed the mark; but I wouldn't jump the gun and call him top 15 until I see some players optimize him (not to be confused with results).

 

[FeelMeUp]

you're a little too focused on numbers for nothing.
at the time, it's not exactly surprising to see people think Olimar was roughly equal to . going by our current official tier list, I feel Olimar should be around Pikachu and Corrin.

 

[Floor]

you're a little too focused on numbers for nothing.
at the time, it's not exactly surprising to see people think Olimar was roughly equal to . going by our current official tier list, I feel Olimar should be around Pikachu and Corrin.

Honestly high tier is so messed up it's hard for me to say where Olimar is (I agree that we shouldn't be focused on nnumbers for no reason). I think Olimar is about as good as Peach and Lucario.

 

[PJB]

I definitely agree with olimar being a top 15 or so character. I just think he is overall the most solid projectile zoner (above mega man, villager, etc) due to how much better his kill potential is than other characters of his type.

The difference to me is how reliable his kills are (throws, purple smashes, red aerials) compared to mega man relying heavily on bair and villager on edge guarding. Olimars disadvantage is the only thing preventing him from being truly top tier in my opinion

 

[FeelMeUp]

I definitely agree with olimar being a top 15 or so character. I just think he is overall the most solid projectile zoner (above mega man, villager, etc) due to how much better his kill potential is than other characters of his type.

The difference to me is how reliable his kills are (throws, purple smashes, red aerials) compared to mega man relying heavily on bair and villager on edge guarding. Olimars disadvantage is the only thing preventing him from being truly top tier in my opinion

Absolutely.
Neutral is superb, that disgusting tiny frame, floaty, kill options range from consistent(blue uthrow, safe smashes, fair) to borderline ridiculous(dthrow rar purple bair), very good stage choices, great damage racking, strong grab game, etc.
But when you take full stage control from him the poor guy struggles to get back. Look at Shuton vs Kameme's and you'll understand what I mean.

 

[The-Technique]

I definitely agree with olimar being a top 15 or so character. I just think he is overall the most solid projectile zoner (above mega man, villager, etc) due to how much better his kill potential is than other characters of his type.

The difference to me is how reliable his kills are (throws, purple smashes, red aerials) compared to mega man relying heavily on bair and villager on edge guarding. Olimars disadvantage is the only thing preventing him from being truly top tier in my opinion

Is his disadvantage that bad? I've seen Shuton super armor through moves and convert them into KOs. Not many characters can boast that kind of option

 

[Illusion.]

is good. Results in Japan are way too consistent (Shuton) for him to not be somewhere in high tier. Myran also has done work in Florida.

And yes, results really do matter whether you like it or not.

 

[PJB]

When I say "bad" I mean relative to other top tiers. Is olimar's disadvantage comparable to dk? Of course not, it's much better. But it's certainly a lot worse than basically any other accepted top tier other than mayyyyyybe fox.

The super armor point is very valid though. It seems less reliable to me than in brawl, but if shuton or someone else proved that it was a reliable way to limit punishes, I'd certainly change my mind

 

[Krysco]

Something I find curious about discussion around results is how with someone like Bayo, a character that's often considered to be top 4 and also often considered #1, hasn't won a major or supermajor, whichever one it was (whatever qualifies as one. Seems to change from person to person). At the same time, there's only 1 spot for 2nd place at a tournament and we've had the likes of Mega Man and Lucario take that spot. It's not as impressive as 1st obviously but it's more impressive than every other possible spot at a tournament. Yet there's some people who have said they think Lucario is as low as mid tier (I don't pay enough attention to remember who exactly says what in this thread so this isn't some call out where I purposely don't mention a name). That's not to say a mid tier or lower can't get impressive results but it depends how high or how many times a result has to be met before a character is generally consider high/top tier.

On that note, depending on what's considered a major or supermajor, what all characters have gotten 2nd or higher at one? I recall there being a post showing the characters that have won a major, but I'm curious about the characters that could have taken that spot in GF.

Also, when it comes to saying where a character should be or could be, there seems to be 2 ways of looking at it, both of which have their flaws. Saying character is top x, usually a multiple of 5 is arbitrary since nothing magically happens to make whoever is 16th way worse than 15th. On the other hand, there's character w could/should be around characters x, y and z. Problem with this one is if you only say a character should be around the rank of one other character, you're not exactly saying the first character should be any better. I've got a number of posts in the older tier list threads where I point out how Lucas was so very often said to be 'around or better' than Ness and I don't see that much anymore. Lucas has hardly gone up but Ness fell from possible top tier and definite high tier down to the top of mid tier. If there's anyone who wants to say Lucas could or should be high tier, they can't use Ness as a reference point anymore since he himself isn't high tier.