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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Envoy of Chaos

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So Bayo Planking: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/67bpcs/in_this_ceo_dreamland_set_between_captain_zack/

I've actually been looking into this for a while now. Lima won the nairo tournament largely abusing this, and while there's only maybe a third of the cast which it's truly viable against, it's pretty unacceptable tbh. It's actually easier, and more rewarding than the custom villager ledge stall. (post-patch)

Mario, Sonic, Marth, Fox, etc can't do anything about it. Cloud has to burn his limit for regular blade beam to challenge her.
This is this first time I've seen this planking thing with Bayonetta so pardon my ignorance but it could Manny not hit Bayonetta when she bounces off the ledge with DABK? She bounces and flips before grabbing onto the ledge. I feel like seeing as you follow a general pattern while doing this you have brief periods where you can be hit.

Not trying to defend this it looks dreadful to play against but it doesn't look 100% safe to me even for characters that don't have a projectile that can hit her out of it
 

DunnoBro

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What other characters can challenge that tech?
Most really, Yoshi can egg, Diddy can peanuts, zelda can din's fire (lol)
Just maybe a third can't properly challenge it.

This is this first time I've seen this planking thing with Bayonetta so pardon my ignorance but it could Manny not hit Bayonetta when she bounces off the ledge with DABK? She bounces and flips before grabbing onto the ledge. I feel like seeing as you follow a general pattern while doing this you have brief periods where you can be hit.

Not trying to defend this it looks dreadful to play against but it doesn't look 100% safe to me even for characters that don't have a projectile that can hit her out of it
Ledge bounce is just used as a stall, they wouldn't(or shouldn't) do it if they're in risk of a punish. There's no real need to do that.
 

TDK

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I don't know if Link can challenge Bayo's projectile camping. Would you, Rizen Rizen ?

In other news, ESAM released a video showing a new pratfall setup for Pika that is true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5m8VezBvTE

In case you can't watch the video now, I'll paraphrase:

On triplats at 0, you can do Uthrow > Nair > Jab Lock > Followups against certain characters. It works on both Battlefield and Dream Land, though against different characters on each stage weirdly, and on Dream Land you have to turn around in order to jab lock (Why?).

Here's a list of who ESAM said it works against on both stages:

Battlefield: :4cloud2: (Limit doesn't change anything) :4sheik: :4bayonetta2: :4falcon: :4greninja: :4falco: :4feroy: :4dedede: :4ganondorf:
Dream Land: :4sheik: :4diddy: :4megaman: :4ryu: :4corrinf: :4link: :4bowserjr: :4myfriends: :4falco: :4feroy: :4dedede:
Both: :4sheik: (!!) :4falco: :4feroy: :4dedede:

Just a tidbit. It's pretty interesting, and it has the potential to make you think twice about stage bans vs Pika (Now if you're worried about this you can't just instaban lylat)

Pretty neat.
 

Lord Dio

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Might just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but it looks like after the side-b Salem footstools and then in the middle of the footstool animation hits them with up-b.
Did I see that right?
 

Yikarur

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1. LoNg0uw :4rob:
2. Schligger :4mewtwo: :4robinm:
3. Haeschen :4diddy:
4. wusi :4fox:

@Das Koopa
 

blackghost

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Lol the irony that this bayo thing is probably because of the patch to witch twist.
We've seen this before in a match from black Yoshi it's in a top ten Janko kills video I believe. I'm much more interested if this bayo plank is actually as strong as some people are saying. Because in the clips Zach is clearly vulnerable after hitting the ledge with abk.
Is this even viable when the stage transitions? Doesn't look like it.
 
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mimgrim

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Since rage is currently being discussed, I'll come out of lurk mode real quick.

In terms of how it rewards players or gives "lesser" players an "unfair" advantage or whatever other hogwash is being discussed. None of that really bothers.

What I'm surprised is how it was only slightly touched upon about how rage affects kill confirms and combos, thats my only gripe with it. I don't like that I kill my opponent but bow can't combo them like I can when I'm at lower precents, kinda feels like I'm getting punished for having taken a stock off my opponent. I mean its not really punishing as you still have the reward of having taken their stock but I digress.
 

Ziodyne 21

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If all new Bayo tech ends up being competitively viable , then Zack may have beem right when he said that Bayo players were only using a fraction of what she is fully capable of.
 
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Rizen

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I think you could make the argument that % lead is a pretty subjective 'lead criteria,' and that we should assign way less importance to it. The player with the most forward position in a racing game isn't necessarily in the best position to win, strategically, even in games without comeback mechanics. Similarly, on a golf course the longest possible shot towards the hole isn't necessarily the most optimal one to take on any given stroke. i.e you have to consider the impact of the rough, sand pits, etc. possibly in a similar way you may consider rage a factor.

All-in-all, it may be wise to distance ourselves from the idea that a lead in any strict sense = "is currently winning". Not only might that interpretation not be accurate, it may also be detrimental towards our mindsets in game, as well.
The only reason I disagree with this is the timeout factor.
I don't know if Link can challenge Bayo's projectile camping. Would you, Rizen Rizen ?
You mean her planking? Link can challenge that fine with bombs. Arrows and boomerang curve down but with ledge invulnerability only happening the first grab he doesn't need them. Link has to be aware of bullet climax and arts and not jump into them but he can out camp her.
When I say out-camp I mean 'force to approach with projectiles'. You can't camp the entire game; you'll be caught and have to switch to sword zoning. Link can't pure camp. Everything he does relates to spacing and creating openings while limiting options.

That's a nice thing about Link: he can safely challenge any recovery with projectiles then Ftilt when they can't grab the ledge. Even scary recoveries like Marcina's.


Neat little thing about rage: it makes Link's Bair1>land>combo into turn around jab/ground spin attack window bigger. Bair 1 has hitstun but no KB whatsoever.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Pretty much anything disjointed, intangible or with super armour can beat, or at least challenge Bayonetta's planking with ease.

This includes things like :4charizard:'s Rock Smash; it's risky in a sense because of how it can be punished, but the hitboxes and spewing rocks put out hitboxes in lots of places so it's quite easy to hit her.

Know what else work fine? :4bowser:and :4dk:tilts, namely Ftilt and Dtilt; particularly the latter in Bowser's case. I myself have been KO'd by a rage Bowser at 60% from his Dtilt while attempting to plank him on the ledge.

Bowser and Charizard also have Fire Breath and Flamethrower respectively too.

Relatively strong projectiles are also good at it; Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball etc.

Also, remember whenever Bayonetta grabs the ledge (any character for that matter), unless she buffers a getup option, there are a few frames she cannot act before releasing it again to repeat. If you simply shield and have a move that hits below the ledge, you can hit her for trying to rinse and repeat. Most characters at least have a move that hits on/below the ledge. If you time her regrab right, just think of those sweet Falcon Dair punishes.

Even if Bayonetta attempts to land straight on stage after using all of those special moves to refresh her ledge invincibility, she's going to be eating 40+ frames of landing lag. Why are people not attempting to punish that? Look at this almost directly at the start; https://clips.twitch.tv/EmpathicGracefulEggOSfrog. Why did Manny not punish her for landing on stage with all that lag (arguably easiest with Sonic too thanks to his speed)?

Counter moves are also quite good at hitting her. :4marth: for example can Counter near the ledge. This is good because you don't even need to hit Bayonetta to trigger the move; if she's using held Nair or Uair, the bullets can trigger the counter move and because she extends her hurtbox while using both of those moves, you can hit her quite easily. Even if the attack doesn't hit her, that's a free stun jacket for you to utilise to help you edgeguard her; hit her with a stun jacket powered Dtilt on her ledge regrab and follow up with an easier move off stage (Counter her recovery, potential Fair etc).


Honestly with all this combined, I am starting to see the Marth (and Lucina) becoming more and more appealing as ways of dealing with her. Their MU's have never been very bad with her, and what they bring to the table is only becoming more and more relevant as time passes.

Remember that :4cloud:'s legs during his Dtilt are also intangible; another potentially strong move to counter this (Cloud also possessing disjointed hitboxes thanks to the Buster Sword is also a huge boon, as explained above).

:4sheik:'s needles are also enough to hit Bayonetta as she comes above the ledge, for example... I could go on for most characters but I'll leave it here. Point is if you look hard enough at your character, there's usually something they have that can help combat this (even characters like :4bowserjr:, whose Mechakoopa can clash with Witch Twist as she goes past or to the ledge; this is notable because when she hits it, it explodes).

And in regards to Salem's "Invincible" Tech, I think he was merely trying to hype it up to get it viewed (which, lets be fair, is a good idea); there were many points in little showcase that you could DI or SDI; simply SDI'ing the first Witch Twist upwards would force Bayonetta to use her jump if she wants to catch you with her ABK, making it almost impossible to get that first hit of the 2nd Twist. It's one of those things we've known about for a very long while now, but it hardly ever gets utilised due to how inconsistent it is and how many variables there are that can prevent it (DI, SDI, rage, weights etc).

I simply say chalk it up with all the other inconsistent and dumb jank in the game, such as :4diddy:'s 0-to-death, :4peach:'s 0-deaths, :rosalina: and Luma's Uair KO'ing off the top at 10%, :4lucario: in general, etc etc etc.

If anything, things like :4fox:'s Fair to footstool death combo are both more reliable and threatening due to lack of variables to prevent it as well as overall simplicity; this is much easier to do and perform, only backed up by the amount of times we've seen this performed in game situations. Bayonetta's have known about the first hit of Witch Twist for ages now and the fact we've rarely seen this (in fact, never this specific combo) only shows to me that it's not something that will be overly utilised.

At least not yet - things could well develop in time I suppose.

In it's current form however, nah, I'm not sold yet. There are far too many times you could still DI or SDI during it.
 
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HoSmash4

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Bayo 'planking' is a viable option but only toxic if you dont know when and what you can punish. Easier said than done as Bayo has a lot of mixups out of an aerial state.

The only reason it was so effective vs Manny was because he refused to approach as that is not his game.
 
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DunnoBro

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Pretty much anything disjointed, intangible or with super armour can beat, or at least challenge Bayonetta's planking with ease.
.
You'd think, wouldn't you?

Cloud's dtilt doesn't work, she can put out enough hitboxes before touching the ledge to keep him from getting too close. Oh and Cloud will probably die if he gets hit with witch twist and edgeguarded trying to dtilt. (He can blade beam though)

Same issue with DK, Marth, though bowser/zard have a plethora of options to mix up so probably fine. (Bowser bomb, flame breath, dtilt)

Marth can counter, hit nothing, then get punished in his endlag. So that's out too.

And 40 frames of lag isn't actually that much if you're not within range. Which she won't be because she doesn't HAVE to land onstage.

It's just broken vs many characters. Let's admit that and move on.

Lol the irony that this bayo thing is probably because of the patch to witch twist.
We've seen this before in a match from black Yoshi it's in a top ten Janko kills video I believe. I'm much more interested if this bayo plank is actually as strong as some people are saying. Because in the clips Zach is clearly vulnerable after hitting the ledge with abk.
Is this even viable when the stage transitions? Doesn't look like it.
That was a pre-patch kill. I'm fairly certain this 1-hit witch twist still just kills with rage, not sure it was ever changed.
 
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Vyrnx

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Salem's kill combo is being down played.

First off, it doesn't matter if it ends up being something we see every game or every set. It matters if a non DI-able kill combo exists for Bayo at all. Secondly, Salem claims it is reliable and that there are multiple ways to start it, including on aerial opponents.

This could potentially be the biggest game changer we've seen this patch.
 
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Zalezus

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Profile pic hitbox of Witch Twist has set KB, pops up at the same distance and angle from 0 to 999 but affected by rage/staling. It's an autolink hitbox like Luigi's tornado, Fox's Fair, and the like. Bayo can reach the top blastzone after two jump cancelled Witch Twists and a double jump, so connecting two autolink hits can kill from the ground at 0%.

On top of all that it's frame 4 B) feels good man

As for the plank, it's pretty effective if Bayo has her double jump. She has access to literally all but two of her major combo tools after bouncing from the ledge with ABK and can just kill someone from a stray hit at the ledge if the percent is right, if you shield the ABK she can just do it again or Fair bounce over your shield to get back to stage. The big kicker with the plank is Back air shield pressure (get it? lol): after taking one strong Bair to the shield, Witch Twist can poke feet and interrupt your ledge guard attempt.. or you just get back aired through the corner of the ledge and that hurts more.

The japanese Bayo Ikep showcased some obscure death combos a while back featuring step dashing and single hit Twist strings. Good to see this out of the lab and spilling some tears.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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So Bayo Planking: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/67bpcs/in_this_ceo_dreamland_set_between_captain_zack/

I've actually been looking into this for a while now. Lima won the nairo tournament largely abusing this, and while there's only maybe a third of the cast which it's truly viable against, it's pretty unacceptable tbh. It's actually easier, and more rewarding than the custom villager ledge stall. (post-patch)

Mario, Sonic, Marth, Fox, etc can't do anything about it. Cloud has to burn his limit for regular blade beam to challenge her.
A lot of people in the comments pointed out how he could have beaten this.

Glad doing this against Zard gives him a free kill with angled down Ftilt/Dsmash or just damage with flame thrower.
 

|RK|

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A lot of people in the comments pointed out how he could have beaten this.

Glad doing this against Zard gives him a free kill with angled down Ftilt/Dsmash or just damage with flame thrower.
Honestly, the more I watch it is the more beatable it looks.

I know Dunnobro is our resident Mario, but I can't see how FLUDD isn't perfect here. Even if it only shoots her upwards, now you can take over her space on the ledge and catch a landing or something, no?

Also what's the issue with just... shielding and picking a punish?
 

Rizen

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I can see how :4bayonetta2:'s planking really cripples many characters: her hit boxes are huge. Like it was in Brawl, planking is beatable but requiring you to put your character at a disadvantage, possibly risking death, every time Bayo retreats to the ledge with a lead really sucks.
This might rearrange the meta to favor characters who can deal with her planking. Many can (:4link::smirk:) but I sympathize with those who can't. Especially in this case where it's one character doing it. :/

IDK about the combos Bayo does that can't be SDIed but if those get refined and are true Bayo could easily take the top spot on the tier list. She's getting better as people flesh out her options.
 

|RK|

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Unlike Brawl though, you can't get invincibility back without touching the stage. Which means she repeatedly comes back up, and *has* to throw out a hitbox to protect herself.

When Manny got hit by a stronger conversion in the first clip, it was because he tried to use spring to hit her and got caught in the air.
 

DunnoBro

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Here's why it works: You can't shield a regrab witch twist AND punish her. Your shield drop frames won't allow it. You HAVE to be able to punish it from afar, or with raw speed like another divekick. Sonic despite his speed, can't hit on ledge out of his dash.

And if you shield a bair, witch twist will poke.

Instead of invincibility, Bayo has jumps with gigantic hitboxes that generate equally gigantic advantage. Instead of safety, she just has HUGE reward.

Here's a less extreme example without the non-aggression: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/67ddgo/domo_hits_chit0_with_a_bayo_combo_and_the_crowd/

Both these stocks were lost because Bayo was camping near the ledge, and fox decided to approach and challenge. The risk/reward IS ALWAYS in her favor vs certain characters.

I was only gathering data for witch twist kills, but after watching so many bayo matches, I saw a LOT of areas where bayo was losing neutral, gets super campy near the ledge and clears a stock.

Please recall that players are still human, and even with brawl planking now indisputably considered 'broken' most players not m2k still didn't resort to it as it's a very boring way to play for an otherwise VERY fun character with the tools to be aggressive. But understand, the reason this isn't yet implemented is because she has more fun options, not better ones.

Oh, and don't forget landing a fresh witch time at the ledge can be death at any percent 30%+ (simply bair > dsmash)

There's counterplay, and don't misunderstand me for saying it's anywhere near as broken as brawl planking. But the parallels are there, and for those that recall, Pikachu was capable of similar before the nerf.

They nerfed pikachu's ledge grab timer(so timing is less lenient and punishing regrabs is more possible), and qa hurtbox. And it STILL wasn't as potent since pikachu couldn't kill off QA confirms. If THAT was grounds for a nerf, then this is too.
 
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Locke 06

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Here's why it works: You can't shield a regrab witch twist AND punish her. Your shield drop frames won't allow it.
Minimum 25 frames between hitboxes, or 20 frames if she buffers a ledge option with invincibility. :/

If I remember how long you have to hold on to ledge correctly. (20f based on pikabunz/beefysmashdoods, but bsd says it varies from character to character and pikabunz says it can be 22 if recovering from below, aka 2frame is added)
 
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DunnoBro

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Minimum 27 frames between hitboxes, or 22 frames if she buffers a ledge option with invincibility. :/

If I remember how long you have to hold on to ledge correctly.
Between hitboxes? What are the numbers of just oos dtilt vs dropping from ledge to safety? Because in my testing Mario, sonic, etc couldn't dtilt after shielding witch twist. (Not to mention she might just hold down and witch twist again)
 
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Locke 06

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Between hitboxes? What are the numbers of just oos dtilt vs dropping from ledge to safety? Because in my testing Mario, sonic, etc couldn't dtilt after shielding witch twist. (Not to mention she might just hold down and witch twist again)
After she grabs the ledge, she has to hold the ledge for 20 or so frames.

If she's frame perfect, she can let go for a frame and then up-B (f4).

The mixup is when she grabs the ledge during her up-B. But witch twist does minimal shield stun, so whatever.
 

|RK|

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Here's why it works: You can't shield a regrab witch twist AND punish her. Your shield drop frames won't allow it. You HAVE to be able to punish it from afar, or with raw speed like another divekick. Sonic despite his speed, can't hit on ledge out of his dash.

And if you shield a bair, witch twist will poke.
I see a lot of held nairs that could have been punished. Personally, I'm thinking Sonic could have sat outside of bair range on ledge instead. Punish her falling down instead of giving her space to reset invincibility.
 

DunnoBro

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I see a lot of held nairs that could have been punished. Personally, I'm thinking Sonic could have sat outside of bair range on ledge instead. Punish her falling down instead of giving her space to reset invincibility.
Well then let's hope people become frame perfect on their reads and counterplay then. I'm not interested in discussing it beyond what my characters can do about it as it's already met the line of 'imbalanced' to me.
 

Bowserboy3

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You'd think, wouldn't you

Cloud's dtilt doesn't work, she can put out enough hitboxes before touching the ledge to keep him from getting too close. Oh and Cloud will probably die if he gets hit with witch twist and edgeguarded trying to dtilt. (He can blade beam though)

Same issue with DK, Marth, though bowser/zard have a plethora of options to mix up so probably fine. (Bowser bomb, flame breath, dtilt)

Marth can counter, hit nothing, then get punished in his endlag. So that's out too.

And 40 frames of lag isn't actually that much if you're not within range. Which she won't be because she doesn't HAVE to land onstage.

It's just broken vs many characters. Let's admit that and move on.
I'm not interested in discussing it beyond what my characters can do about it as it's already met the line of 'imbalanced' to me.
And there we have it; my characters cannot deal with this = clearly broken.

Why must we adopt this attitude and "move on"? It clearly isn't "broken" (very strong, yes, but not broken), which is why people are putting their heads together and sharing valuable information about this. If your character cannot deal with it, then unfortunately, tough. Play somebody else who can deal with it, because there are a lot who can.

Most of the examples I gave in my initial post were about punishing her ledge regrab with her invulnerability gone; as such, Marth and Cloud's Dtilt's are more than capable of doing this.

Marth can indeed Counter if he's close enough to the ledge. Bayonetta's attacks all involve her putting her hurtbox in range to be hit by something intangible or disjointed, with enough range; yes, even Witch Twist. If you stand close enough to the ledge while she's throwing out her hitboxes, you can easily Counter them and hit her. I mean, that's exactly what you use Counter moves for...

Also, Duck Hunt's can is safe enough to throw out at a safe distance and edge out there to add some pressure onto Bayonetta for attempting to plank, especially if she's used up her ledge invulnerability.

And let's not overreact to things; dropping shield the moment a character grabs a ledge is definitely within the realm of reaction time to drop and react with an attack. The reason why certain moves like Marth and Cloud Dtilt are quite good at this is because of the propeties of the moves, you can even just stand out of range of the ledge where Bayonetta can hit you and use the move on reaction as she grabs the ledge; Marth's Dtilt works because it's disjointed and has range, and Cloud's moves him forward, essentially giving it range (it being intangible is also a nice bonus).

One simply doesn't have to stand next to the ledge and face a barrage of attacks; there are other options.

If your character has access to a throwing item too, like Link(s), Peach, Bowser Jr etc, you can also simply throw these down to punish ledge vulnerability.

Bayonetta's planking is certainly an amazing option she has at her disposal and I am in no way trying to downplay it. However, simply refusing to accept the fact that there may be counterplay and dismiss it as "broken" is not the way to go about improving the fight against it.

For example, do you think we'd have gotten this far into developing the Luma counterplay if we just stopped at phase one and said "no, this is broken, my character can't deal with this"?

I don't think so.
 
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TDK

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This weekend, DreamHack Austin will happen, featuring...

ZeRo :4diddy: :4lucina:
Ally :4mario:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
VoiD :4sheik:
MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
Zinoto :4diddy:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:
ESAM :4pikachu:
Samsora :4peach:
Day :4lucario:
Locus :4ryu:
MVD :4diddy:

And more. It's shaping up to be pretty big.
 

Y2Kay

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People complaining about Rage and Aura usued to annoy me, but after playing nothing but Marvel for the past few months, I find it quite laughable.

I get it. It sucks to blow an advantage to your opponent. However, just because you're in the lead at one point in the game doesn't mean you're entitled to win.

:150:
 

Ark of Silence101

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This weekend, DreamHack Austin will happen, featuring...

ZeRo :4diddy: :4lucina:
Ally :4mario:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
VoiD :4sheik:
MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
Zinoto :4diddy:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:
ESAM :4pikachu:
Samsora :4peach:
Day :4lucario:
Locus :4ryu:
MVD :4diddy:

And more. It's shaping up to be pretty big.
Although it's 100% unlikely, ZeRo's :4lucina: VS MkLeo's :4marth: pls.
 

verbatim

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Hope we get to see Samsora vs Leo. That's something I can see them winning.

ESAM vs ZeRo would also be cool but probably less likely.
 

|RK|

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People complaining about Rage and Aura usued to annoy me, but after playing nothing but Marvel for the past few months, I find it quite laughable.

I get it. It sucks to blow an advantage to your opponent. However, just because you're in the lead at one point in the game doesn't mean you're entitled to win.

:150:
I hear Marvel is merciless when it comes to teaching that lesson lol.
 

Ziodyne 21

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This weekend, DreamHack Austin will happen, featuring...

ZeRo :4diddy: :4lucina:
Ally :4mario:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
VoiD :4sheik:
MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
Zinoto :4diddy:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:
ESAM :4pikachu:
Samsora :4peach:
Day :4lucario:
Locus :4ryu:
MVD :4diddy:

And more. It's shaping up to be pretty big.

Well we will see if Zack will try to use Salem's single hit Witch Twist combo tech or see how effective his planking tech will turn out.
Don't know if Salem or any other notable Bayo mains are gong to be there, but I wonder if there going to be trying any of this.
 
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ぱみゅ

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This "new" Bayo combo has already been implemented by Ikep, with mixed success.
More often than not he loses to players/characters with better neutral game, or wins because the opponents don't mix up the DI and the combo would connect anyway. The combo rarely even gets to be implemented.
And I am yet to see the first hit of Witch Twist killing with rage on purpose, it often just launches opponents towards the last hit.
:196:
 

Rizen

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And I am yet to see the first hit of Witch Twist killing with rage on purpose, it often just launches opponents towards the last hit.
:196:
There was a tournament video where a Japanese Bayo player witch timed the opponent after taking their stock, so Bayo still was at a high %, then witch twisted 2 or 3 times in a row on the suspended character so the first hit BKB built up without connecting to the final hit. It killed at or close to 0% on SV.

Does anyone know what video I'm talking about? Sorry but I can't remember who played in it :facepalm: I'll see if I can find it.
 

Y2Kay

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I hear Marvel is merciless when it comes to teaching that lesson lol.
Rage increases your knock back.

X factor increases damage, makes you faster, improves your frame data, makes you immune to chip damage, AND let's you regenerate red health faster.


I'll fight 20 max aura lucarios before I fight ONE Dark Strider. Jesus.

:150:
 
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