Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Wow Nairo and ZeRo got bodied in game 4 and 5 respectively.

So ZeRo still hasn't taken a super major this season.

 

[The-Technique]

So Nairo just took a national tournament all the way from loser's side, defeating his greatest demon Zero in Grand Finals. This man is a legend.

Never, ever sleep on ZSS.

 

[ARGHETH]

So Nairo just took a national tournament all the way from loser's side, defeating his greatest demon Zero in Grand Finals. This man is a legend.

Never, ever sleep on ZSS.

Between beating MKLeo, Mr. R, and Zero twice, I think Nairo beat all his demons today. This losers run one of the best in Smash 4 history...

EDIT: except maybe Salem?

 

[C0rvus]

I wanna say James used his Luigi in singles as well.

 

[Yonder]

I wanna say James used his Luigi in singles as well.

Against Diddy Dyr and MVD, winning them yes.

Btw, we live in a world with a Smash Bros game where Bowser helped win a supermajor. (Took games off Leo apparently)

Let that sink in.

 

[|RK|]

I'll never get over how similar ZSS and Bayonetta are lmao, especially after today.

 

[Yonder]

I'll never get over how similar ZSS and Bayonetta are lmao, especially after today.

Also displays how much more dominant it is to have a ladder/vertical kill option as opposed to horizontal. You have to account for how well you can land or break out of juggles in the air, which is much harder without super armor, invulnerability, or intangent frames.

 

[ARGHETH]

(Took games off Leo apparently)

He went 1-1 with ZSS, then switched to Bowser and won games 3 and 4.

 

[Yonder]

Super Smash Con winners

(Lot of Corrins in the top 32)

Minor winners
(Shinji and Seth solo placing in the 30s is good for them)(Showed the Diddy MU is still a good one for Luigi)

Losers

(Most drowned)(Underperformed, for Fox's meta status)(Asides from Samsora...I expected more Peach)

 

[Heracr055]

I think Ryu is a minor winner, too. THUNDER and Darkshad placed 17th and 13th place, respectively. Not to mention THUNDER taking a set from Tweek.

 

[verbatim]

Minor winners
(Shinji and Seth solo placing in the 30s is good for them)

Sinji got DOUBLE eliminated by Nairo and got 25th. Makes you think what might of happened had that not been the case.
And had he not been seeded into Komorikiri and THEN Tweek.

 

[L9999]

ZSS sucks and she is going down, am I right? Seriously, people need to stop underrating her.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

So when are we gonna ban zss guys?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Also displays how much more dominant it is to have a ladder/vertical kill option as opposed to horizontal

I thought pre-patch Sheik showed a lot of people that. The 50/50 wouldn't have mattered if it was horizontal.

Hell, 1.1.5 Sheik still shows that.

ZSS sucks and she is going down, am I right? Seriously, people need to stop underrating her.

K, can we leave the knee jerking at this comment only please. Maybe the end of a large tournament won't be so insufferable that way.
EDIT: NEVER MIND THEN

 

[Bowserboy3]

If anyone ever complains about Bayonetta being dishonest but loves ZSS and her combos etc then you need to sit down in a cold dark room and have a stern word with yourself.

Very strange how Bayonetta laddering you and killing you off of a read at 20% is dumb and stupid (which I will note has been happening less and less these days as top players adapt), but ZSS doing the same thing is great and hype (which I'll also note still happens, because, shock, this is actually harder to adapt to once she's got you)...

On the topic of ladder combos and such, I honestly feel that if more players used Meta Knight and showcased him more, he could easily be top tier. There's not much of a difference in the comeback factor of ZSS and Meta Knight. Are there any outright problem MU's he has with the top tiers? I can't see any. That and him having a notable MU vs Rosalina only boosts his strengths.



Also, 10 different top 64 players used at some point (6 in top 32).

Just 6 's (2 in top 32).


Oh dear, Bayonetta is totally taking over the meta right guys? Let's just leave it a few months before we ban her, k?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Wow Nairo and ZeRo got bodied in game 4 and 5 respectively.

So ZeRo still hasn't taken a super major this season.

Does Nairo Saga not count?

 

[Myollnir]

If anyone ever complains about Bayonetta being dishonest but loves ZSS and her combos etc then you need to have a sit down in a cold dark room and have a stern word with yourself.

THANK YOU.

 

[Nu~]

Honestly, I don't know whats more annoying

The circlejerk of "omg guise, ZSS and Bayo are like, totally the same deal guise!!1! Every1's a hypocrit!!" every time Nairo does well...

Or the complaining about bayo complainers

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Does Nairo Saga not count?

No, that was still part of the last PGR season (v3).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Honestly, I don't know whats more annoying

The circlejerk of "omg guise, ZSS and Bayo are like, totally the same deal guise!!1! Every1's a hypocrit!!" every time Nairo does well...

Or the complaining about bayo complainers

Unfortunately, the latter will never go away as long as the people who are more willing to whine about characters rather than adapt continue to shout loudest.

MKLeo's set with Salem just goes to show you what happens when you actually sit down and learn. Heck, if we look back at how Dabuz used to get wiped by Bayonetta in the past, and how he often defeats her these days, that's another example.

Yes, I know adaptation can only take you so far, and it doesn't stop Bayonetta being amazingly silly at times, but adaptation clearly is key, and it does work if you try hard enough.

To be honest, not enough top players in general have been willing enough to break down Bayonetta it seems; that or showcase to the rest of the community what to actually do to counter her. Sure, they have likely been learning themselves what best to do but in order for the whiners to stop they need to show them exactly what to do.

The only player I can think of that has actually attempted to show us is ESAM - but even then, he's far more interested in showing us why "ZSS is overrated", and would rather spend more time showing us how to beat her instead... smh (though that's kind of ironic when you consider the SSC 2017 result lol).

I'm just glad that Bayonetta wasn't the most common character this time and that Diddy was. Not only does it show you that Bayonetta is very beatable, it also shows that Diddy clearly still has stuff left in the tank after people were starting to write him off a little. It says a huge deal about the character when he's one of the most common mains or even secondaries.

And speaking of which, yes, Bowser did indeed assist somebody as a secondary, allowing him to win a tournament.

Wut?

 

[kynlem]

If anyone ever complains about Bayonetta being dishonest but loves ZSS and her combos etc then you need to sit down in a cold dark room and have a stern word with yourself.

Very strange how Bayonetta laddering you and killing you off of a read at 20% is dumb and stupid (which I will note has been happening less and less these days as top players adapt), but ZSS doing the same thing is great and hype

While I think all low percent ladder combos are stupid, what you are saying is not a valid point. ZSS ladders are much more risky and thus less common than Bayonetta combos, which can lead to more "hype" as you put it.

First of all, ZSS has to take a huge risk to get a ladder combo by going for a grab, a nair, or if you are really lucky, a falling up air. Even then, all of these set ups usually rely on platforms unless rage is involved.

On Bayo's side, there are a lot more options that are all better than ZSS. Up air, up tilt, up b, side b, down tilt, up throw on fast fallers, and witch time can all lead into an early percent ladder, though again it likely won't kill without platforms.

All of Bayonetta's options to start a ladder are waaaaaaay more safe than ZSS's. A missed Witch Twist usually will not get you hit with a major punish. A missed grab from ZSS will definitely cost you a stock at high percent and a hardy punish at low percent.

What I am trying to say is that it when ZSS gets a ladder it feels more earned. You won't see ZSS landing a ladder every game either, but you are guaranteed to see at least 3 Bayo ladders, lethal or not, per game.

Also I never want to type the word 'ladder' ever again.

 

[Illusion.]

ZSS takes substantially more risk when trying to do a ladder combo considering it usually starts from a frame 16 grab with lots of endlag.

Meanwhile, Bayonetta has access to a frame 4 Witch Twist.

Was probably mentioned before, but since it was ignorantly mentioned again, complaining and adapting are NOT mutually exclusive actions. You can learn the Bayonetta MU and still dislike her design.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Whether one character's feels more rewarding, or is a bit easier to start is not the point. The point is both characters have the ability to kill people off the top at ludicrous percents, yet one is seemingly acceptable (or at least nobody moans about it), the other isn't. I could go on about how people likely have less issue with ZSS because it's Nairo bias, but I'll stay on track.

Bayonetta might have access to frame 4 Witch Twist, but Bayonetta is also lumbered with extremely high SDI modifiers and multiple different hitboxes/timing with different angles (looking at you ABK), which in turn make is a lot easier to actually escape her combos. Bayonetta has to react and predict far more than ZSS does. People just assume that Bayonetta starts a Witch Twist and what comes next is free, and this is far from the truth. SDI and simple DI can affect far more than actually escaping. If you don't escape you may get hit by a different hitbox what the Bayonetta was not predicting and that can really change how the combo plays out. No amount of SDI will save you from ZSS's combos.

It is also incredibly delusional to simply assume that ZSS starts her combos from that frame 16 grab. No, this is not the case.

Let's take Nairo's GF's set vs ZeRo shall we?

• Game 2: The very first stock, Nairo took on ZeRo was thanks to him reading aerial movement at 60%, allowing him to hit an Uair, into another, into a Boost Kick, which KO'd.
  
  
• Game 3: Again, stock 1, Nairo simply DI'd out of a Diddy "combo", allowing him to counter with a Nair at 50%, which in turn allowed 2 Uair's into a Boost Kick, which KO'd.
  
  
• Game 6: Diddy at 67%, Nairo was able to land a Dsmash, which of course, led into an Uair into Boost Kick which KO'd.
  
  
• Game 7: Nairo landed an amazing tomahawk grab (which on a side note was an amazing play) at 41%, into various platform assisted Uairs to a Boost Kick, which KO'd.
  
  
• Game 8: While not what I'd call a true ladder combo, Nairo got ZeRo in the air with a few Uairs, then waited and reacted to ZeRo's options/aerial movement, predicted correctly, and landed a finishing Uair to Boost Kick at 72%, which KO'd.
  
  
• Game 10: Nairo reads a bad back roll by ZeRo, capitalises with a dash grab, kills him with a ladder combo at 30%. And thanks to some shoddy camera work, it's hard to see what exactly happened on the last stock, but it looks like Nairo once again correctly read some aerial movement, nabbing an Uair into Boost Kick, which KO'd.

Now, while we clearly don't see this happen every single game, if we just consider the GF's one huge 10 game set, ladder kill combos happened in 6 of them; that's 60% of the games in the whole set. That's not what I would call uncommon. The counterplay to actually get out of ZSS's combo is very minimal. No amount of SDI or differing hitbox angles will assist you here. You've just got to mix up your general DI and hope this throws the ZSS off. Not only does this analysis show that ZSS ladder combos are certainly not uncommon, it also shows you that she doesn't outright need that punishable grab to set them up. Simply predicting correctly, or landing an alternate move like Nair is more than enough to spell death for the opponent.

Now, if we take a Bayonetta 10 game example, which luckily we have, thanks to EVO, Salem only killed with one single Bayonetta ladder combo, which was reading ZeRo's aerial movement at 30% and capitalising. Every other ladder combo during the set did not lead to a kill because ZeRo was using the correct counterplay to actually get out of the combo. So in comparison, just 10% of the games in that set had a Bayonetta ladder combo kill.

I think the difference here is, that Bayonetta's combos happen more commonly due to how easy they are to start, but they tend to KO less often due to the amount of variables that can affect it. ZSS may or may not have a harder time setting them up, but by god when she gets you in one you better get praying to your lucky stars you come out alive.

These are just two examples however, so nothing here is definite, but what it does do is paint a good picture as a whole. I think the sooner people start realising that ZSS doesn't always start her kill combos from a grab, and that she actually has enough other viable ways to start the combos, people will realise actually how dumb and busted her ladder combos are in comparison.

 

[Illusion.]

The ease and availability of starting said combos is absolutely a viable point. It's not logical to say the two ladders are equal when the availability simply isn't the same. That's like trying to argue that Greninja's drag-down Uair > footstool is just as good as Fox's drag-down Fair > footstool even though Fox has moves that setup into it while Greninja does not.

There's a reason I said "usually" in my initial post, I am very well aware ZSS' ladder combos aren't exclusively started by a grab, just like how Bayonetta's ladders aren't exclusively started by Witch Twist. Here's another thing: ZSS can't grab in the air, Nair while on the ground, but Bayonetta can Witch Twist any time she wants. If she doesn't Witch Twist, she can Dtilt, Utilt, Uair, Fair, or even Witch Time; we've all seen these ladders happen from different moves; we've even seen Bayonetta carry people even to the side at criminally low percents. Some of those moves even happen to be safe pokes. The "single-hit" Witch Twist that has high BKB is also a thing.

Are ZSS' ladder combos devastating and frustrating to die to? Absolutely, I will not deny this. My point is, it's not reasonable to say they are just as bad as Bayonetta's when she has more opportunities to get them started.

 

[Bowserboy3]

@illusion - very good points.

If then, ease and availability of starting said combos is absolutely a valid point, how much of a valid point is the counterplay of the same combos when it comes to how effective they are?

I understand precisely what you are saying, but how come then (speaking solely off of a top level experience) do we see ZSS's ladder combos killing more often than Bayonetta's?

Does this not tell us that perhaps ZSS's are more effective? Could this perhaps tell us that the counterplay to Bayonetta's is actually very real and very usable? Does it tell us that there is less you can do to avoid ZSS's combos?

Surely that deserves some light too. I am just very curious as to why the community in general is more focused on Bayonetta's laddering prowess when nowadays, we see very little of it actually killing in general, when ZSS does it multiple times every set.

 

[Illusion.]

@illusion - very good points.

If then, ease and availability of starting said combos is absolutely a valid point, how much of a valid point is the counterplay of the same combos when it comes to how effective they are?

Counterplay is also a valid point, like how you mentioned Bayonetta having higher SDI multipliers. The problem is I hear so many different things from different Bayonetta players on what to do when you get hit by X or Y that I actually have no idea what to say on that matter. It's why I didn't comment on that point of your post.

I understand precisely what you are saying, but how come then (speaking solely off of a top level experience) do we see ZSS's ladder combos killing more often than Bayonetta's?

I'd say it's due to most of her ladder combos starting at later percents (higher percent = closer you are to death) i.e. her ladder from a Dthrow > Boost Kick doesn't start working until 70-80ish (?) and even then it won't kill unless it's done near the ledge, with platform assists, with rage, or it's done on a very light character. Can't remember what tournament it was, but Salem had Witch Timed Nairo and just carried him off the top at 0 from the left T&C platform. ZSS definitely would not have been able to do that at 0.

Does this not tell us that perhaps ZSS's are more effective? Could this perhaps tell us that the counterplay to Bayonetta's is actually very real and very usable? Does it tell us that there is less you can do to avoid ZSS's combos?

Point I was making is that Bayonetta doesn't have to work as hard or put herself in as much risk as ZSS in order to get a ladder started since she has much more options that are safer. Whose is more effective is another topic that I'd rather not get into while I'm at work and don't have time to look through VODs to support whatever side I take. Anecdotes don't count here, but I've seen Bayonetta, in person and just watching streams, kill way earlier in ways ZSS never can.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So I am not sure if this was brought up. B8t it seems Bowser can do pretty well vs Cloud. I am not saying Bowser wins the MU by any means and Cloud has lots of advantages . But the Koopa King has tools to hold his own in the MU

For one Bowers fire breath or his intangability of his d-tilt at ledge will almost always drove Cloud to recover high or burn his limit if he has it

Bower has enough reach to deal with Clouds massive disjointes and of course his grab kill-confirm

(Which I like to call. the shell-
shock. I hate the name Koo-Pah..) has a decent range window vs him.

 

[PK Bash]

If anyone ever complains about Bayonetta being dishonest but loves ZSS and her combos etc then you need to sit down in a cold dark room and have a stern word with yourself.

Very strange how Bayonetta laddering you and killing you off of a read at 20% is dumb and stupid (which I will note has been happening less and less these days as top players adapt), but ZSS doing the same thing is great and hype (which I'll also note still happens, because, shock, this is actually harder to adapt to once she's got you)...

On the topic of ladder combos and such, I honestly feel that if more players used Meta Knight and showcased him more, he could easily be top tier. There's not much of a difference in the comeback factor of ZSS and Meta Knight. Are there any outright problem MU's he has with the top tiers? I can't see any. That and him having a notable MU vs Rosalina only boosts his strengths.



Also, 10 different top 64 players used at some point (6 in top 32).

Just 6 's (2 in top 32).


Oh dear, Bayonetta is totally taking over the meta right guys? Let's just leave it a few months before we ban her, k?

OK so not everything I'm saying is aimed at you and you alone, but there's a lot I want to respond to and most of it is relevant to what you have been saying. And you make some valid points but I want to address what I consider the more questionable ones.

First thing is first, Bayo killing you off a read at 20% is dumb and stupid. That's Smash 4 as a whole though and you've got to accept dumb **** if you choose to play this game. There's a lot more reasons you're ignoring that makes Bayo's combos particularly stupid but I'll be covering that later when we talk about why ZSS combos are also stupid but to a lesser degree.

I get that this is an aside but let's put in a counterargument now before it snowballs into something bigger: Meta Knight is not top tier material. There are a number of fundamental problems with the character (which, yes, includes problem MUs with the top tiers - the legit top tiers that is) that prevent him from ever being a top tier in this game, being able to end stocks or have a "clutch" or "comeback factor" is not enough to make a character "top tier" - this term is used FAR too liberally in this thread.

Bayo may not be taking over the meta yet. Yeah OK she's not Brawl Meta Knight we get it, we can retire this comparison now. For less ridiculous top tiers than him, their evolution to dominance is typically more gradual. Melee Fox was always top 3 afaik but it took him a number of years to reach the number 1 spot. Which is indicative of why arguing any character is the "definitive number 1" at this point is a fallacy, but on the other side of the coin also arguing that one clearly dominant character isn't dominant because of multiple highly variable factors (one of which basically being chance and the way Smash 4 has developed up until now) is also a fallacy. We've gotta be careful with this issue and how we approach it.

As a sidenote, can we keep the berating out of this thread? That's not me being a backseat mod it's just me reminding people that it's doing far more harm than good in this thread, and it's been painful enough to read these last few months even without the bespoke berating seriously bringing down the quality of the thread. I don't come here to read Reddit 2.0, I come here because, by and large, the posts are interesting, informed and insightful, would be nice if that was maintained.

Now let's look at ZSS and Bayo together. I don't think it should have come to this tbh but whatever. Hopefully I can do this without rehashing Illusion's points because I agree 100% with everything he has said on the matter.

ZSS combos are ****ing stupid I agree. But they are marginally less dumb because they're less consistent, more risky and require more precision (many reasons have already been brought up). In other words they are more situational than Bayo combos. Yes I get that Bayo can't just kill you every time she presses up B. But the opportunities are far more readily available to her than to ZSS. Look at any Bayo set and count the number of times she starts a combo and death is a very real possibility. Compare that to a ZSS set. Difference is stark. And well that's your reason why they're more hype even if they're not honest.

It's been mentioned before but there's more to add to the point that ZSS is more risky to attempt it with. I know she doesn't *need* a grab to start a death combo, but she does need to do an up B to finish it and then she's in a helpless state. This is not rocket science but sometimes it's the obvious things we overlook. ZSS can miss with up B and that's a disaster. Bayo does not have this weakness. Even if Bayo misses the situation will probably still favour her because of what she still has access to. She has more numerous viable options than whoever has just escaped the combo, that's for certain.

As to why the counterplay isn't all there with ZSS, it certainly exists, trouble is that it isn't being applied. Good of you to call this out. You can DI (and I think SDI is effective too but don't quote me) the starting hits of Boost kick to potentially avoid the second hit, and said second hit is also prone to DI.

Nobody has learnt the counterplay to this to the same extent as they have Bayo because ZSS isn't as infamous as Bayonetta.
That doesn't mean ZSS is honest.
And Bayonetta isn't infamous solely because she can Stairway to Heaven you.
It's when you consider the other absurdities of Bayonetta's design and then add this mess to it that you understand exactly what it is about Bayonetta that people take offence to.
There is more to this can of worms than simple combos and I know you know that.
--

As a footnote, give me a reminder in like a week's time if you still want an analysis of one of your top 8 games or sets at Arms race and I haven't sent it to you yet. (and if I don't log in here, catch me on Discord, if you look hard enough you'll find me lurking in the UK or EU Discord somewhere.) I have a lot of other commitments but I enjoy analysing vods and coming up with answers and I'm totally happy to analyse your vods if you're still up for that.

No hard feelings, but I had to respond because I had a lot to say. Feel free to counter my points but don't think less of me if I don't respond - I've got enough to do and worry about without continuing this debate and I don't have many more productive points to bring up anyway!

 

[HoSmash4]

Witch Twist ladders:
+ Frame 4, can be done OOS, mid air, strong vertical hitboxes
+ Confirms off dtilt, fair, double jump/full hop uair, utilt, heel slide, afterburner kick (most easily setup in a reversal off the run off ledge abk)
+Often leads to heavy damage, but kill confirms are becoming less and less common as people optimise their sdi and di
- Bayonetta commits to the 25 frames of lag + has to try to land - which often means vs patient shield heavy players, to retreat to the ledge as up-b to side-b away has 26 frames of landing lag
- Weak horizontal range
- Loses to shield

ZSS Grab:
+Massive horizontal range which pulls in unsuspecting opponents
+Confirms off grab, zair nair,paralyser and dsmash (Latter two usually have better followups off nair/kill move or something)
+ Can reliably lead to kill confirms especially with platforms where di or sdi wont save you.
+Certain percents where dthrow uair uair up-b is 100% confirmed kill with rage e.g vs Sheik on t&c
- 69 FAF on standing, 72 on dash grab, 34/36 frames of recovery after last hitbox, is grounded after whiff
-startup of 16 frames means empty land grabs, oos grabs, and reactive grabs are harder to land
- Her safe on shield options in neutral generally have a lot of startup as well meaning its hard for her to overwhelm the opponent with frame data like say sheik to land the grab

 

[TDK]

Can we talk about ? On paper, he seems like a candidate for the worst in the game, but Sinji made a deep run with the character at Smashcon and Zage also got 49th. Is Pac better than we think or was it matchup inexperience on the part of their opponents?

 

[origamiscienceguy]

ZSS's combos are locked behind a frame 16 grab, wheres Bayonetta's combos are locked behind a frame 4 special move with stupidly large hitboxes.

Stop trying to say they are the same.

 

[irokex13]

If you think that ZSS only starts her combos from a grab, I really doubt your experience fighting against ZSS. If you really, honestly believe that ZSS HAS to throw out a RAW frame 16 grab, you should not be talking about what ZSS does.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm leaning towards matchup inexperience, in one of the games I saw Sinji play vs Nairo, Sinji almost won because to me it looked like he did not respect Pac Man's tools.

 

[|RK|]

ZSS's combos are locked behind a frame 16 grab, wheres Bayonetta's combos are locked behind a frame 4 special move with stupidly large hitboxes.

Stop trying to say they are the same.

I just want to say the fact that people can watch ZSS matches and still say "locked behind a frame 16 grab" is getting frustrating. ZSS players do way more than grab to start their combos. Luhtie is the perfect example of this at Civil War - he didn't even go for that many grabs. Nair, uair, dsmash, paralyzer, instant tether trump... all viable options to get things going.

Anyways, came here to post this:

Yeah it's greninja, gonna start playing him and gonna have a legit secondary for once, I gotta stop being addicted to bayonetta. 🦋

— Salem (@SalemBane_) August 14, 2017

Kero

 

[Illusion.]

I don't think he'll stick with it considering he's the best of his character who is also the best in the game, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

 

[Yonder]

Having a secondary for Bayo is purely for throwig off people with matchup inexperience or breaking their rhythm if they adjust to Bayo. That being said, it can be valuable, losing as your main, winning as your secondary, and winning as your main again has been seen before.

I think Greninja could work out nicely for him. No one really knows how to fight him yet, then again he's like ...permanent Speed Shulk without the range, to be blunt. Bad frame data is still such a hassle.

 

[Myollnir]

Counterplay is also a valid point, like how you mentioned Bayonetta having higher SDI multipliers. The problem is I hear so many different things from different Bayonetta players on what to do when you get hit by X or Y that I actually have no idea what to say on that matter. It's why I didn't comment on that point of your post.

Yeah lol, most Bayonetta players don't know how to SDI. Salem died to things he shouldn't have against Mistake yesterday.

First thing is first, Bayo killing you off a read at 20% is dumb and stupid

If you die at 20% from ONE read that means you got Witch Timed near the ledge or on a platform with rage. Which is entirely your fault.

Otherwise, Bayonetta can't kill with solely one read. She needs to read DI/SDI as well.

Melee Fox was always top 3 afaik but it took him a number of years to reach the number 1 spot

This is not something you can refer to. During 2002-2006 (Fox is n°1 since 2006), metagame growth wasn't really fast lol and games were slower to develop. Time has changed. Your point still stands, just wanted to point that out.

It's been mentioned before but there's more to add to the point that ZSS is more risky to attempt it with. I know she doesn't *need* a grab to start a death combo, but she does need to do an up B to finish it and then she's in a helpless state. This is not rocket science but sometimes it's the obvious things we overlook. ZSS can miss with up B and that's a disaster. Bayo does not have this weakness.

You realize that Bayonetta has extremely hard landing lag to make up for that, right?
You also realize people falling out of boost kick is something that entirely depends on the ZSS while falling out of Bayo combos is entirely dependant on YOU?

You can DI (and I think SDI is effective too but don't quote me) the starting hits of Boost kick to potentially avoid the second hit, and said second hit is also prone to DI.

DI will only make you avoid it if she angles it poorly (not going to talk about characters that naturally fall out of it like Cloud & Bayo). SDI multiplier is litterally zero on the middle hits. SDIing the first hit is possible, but considering its hitlag & SDI multipliers are x1 I don't believe it'll ever make adifference.

Nobody has learnt the counterplay to this to the same extent as they have Bayo because ZSS isn't as infamous as Bayonetta.

But people have learnt the ZSS counterplay. ZSS used to be even better (I don't know if she was super dominant, I didn't play Smash4 at the time). By now, everyone knows how to regular DI on boost kick to avoid dying to D-Throw U-air U-air UpB.

90% of the people saying Bayonetta is above the rest of the cast have no idea how her specials work. I like to ask them how many UpB's and SideB's Bayonetta have and the conditions for her to get another one. They don't know. Same for her jump.

A lot of people don't punish the weaknesses she has and they respect options she hasn't.
Something I've noticed is that among the players I've met so far that have played Bayonetta just for fun (and don't even use her in tournament), no one thinks she's broken.

She's hard to learn, and most people are lazy, so they don't even bother learning what she does unless they really care about getting good.

TL;DR :Bayonetta forces you to play her game, and if you don't want to, you're giving her a free win.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

If you think that ZSS only starts her combos from a grab, I really doubt your experience fighting against ZSS. If you really, honestly believe that ZSS HAS to throw out a RAW frame 16 grab, you should not be talking about what ZSS does.

I understand that. I was making a point. about how ZSS and Bayonetta are not on the same level. Bayonetta can also start combos with things other than Witch Twist.

 

[Nu~]

Can we talk about ? On paper, he seems like a candidate for the worst in the game, but Sinji made a deep run with the character at Smashcon and Zage also got 49th. Is Pac better than we think or was it matchup inexperience on the part of their opponents?

Tea got 7th at Sumabato too ^^

At this point, im not sure. Sinji keeps performing better and better (He was double eliminated by nairo at smashcon...imagine if he didn't run into nairo the 2nd time) and every time he performs well he comes back with new insights on MUs previously deemed horrible for Pac-Man. May be a good thing to note: At SmashCon, Sinji took out the best ZSS player in Florida, Zeta. Sinji's hyper evasive and patient style seems to help him get around Pac's weakness to shield.

Tea on the other hand...it can almost feel like he's trolling you the entire time he's playing.

Spoiler

Set ups everywhere, Bonus fruit cancel tech utilized to its extreme, z drop terror...the dude embodies Pac-Man in a sense. But due to this, he's prone to bustering out a lot when he goes too far and does something needlessly unsafe.


Im not sure how long this pacman fever is gonna last, but i do think it shows us that he has a bit more stuff to bring to the table

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I don't think we can assume that everyone knows how to DI Zero Suit Samus's Boost Kick.