Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[FeelMeUp]

Any character with over 3 matchups worse than 6:4 is awful.

 

[Nah]

DK is just polarized nonsense, like a lot of stuff in this game

 

[C0rvus]

Now that's something I can agree with. DK's strength is in his simplicity, so if anything he seems like a player counterpick because he does carry a number of lousy matchups.

 

[Illusion.]

ARFI 17 (57 entrants: Austin, Texas)
http://austinsmash4.challonge.com/arfi17

1st. GT MB | Whispy
2nd. Deluxemenu
3rd. SU | BC
4th. Alxxne

 

[williamsga555]

Really hope some of Zaki's matches were recorded on stream. Footage of him is pretty scarce, but the biggest takeaway I've had from the few matches I've seen in the past is that his movement with D3 is amazing. He's super good at mixing up fastfalls with sudden jumps to bait people near the ledge. Hard to explain, but the way he times it has been unlike any other D3 I've seen.

Good stuff to him, though. Glad to see he's started using a secondary to push his results a little further.

 

[Y2Kay]

DK's strengths are very one dimensional and situational. Not a very good character if you plan on maining him. Decent enough as a counter-pick.

 

[Aaron1997]

Super Smash Con top 32 Character diversity







Secondaries



Note's

Wow where did all the monkey's come from.
Still pretty popular
Taking over the metagame right?
Best performance by far at a S tier
Edit: Oh boy, Best Tourney By far is a understatement
Is this the First Solo main top 32 at a Super Major?
He's back
Also Back and will only get better as long Tea stays active and Sinji keeps getting better
Uhhh Mario, are you ok? You don't look to good

 

[The-Technique]

Huh, what happened to the Bayo-apocalypse? And Diddy Kong looking as strong as ever.

 

[|RK|]

For all the Bayos that straight up drowned, I wonder how many top players will still be like "Bayo is the answer"?

Beating a dead horse, I know.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Super Smash Con top 32 Character diversity







Secondaries



Note's

Wow where did all the monkey's come from.
Still pretty popular
Taking over the metagame right?
Best performance by far at a S tier
Is this the First Solo main top 32 at a Super Major?
He's back
Also Back and will only get better as long Tea stays active and Sinji keeps getting better
Uhhh Mario, are you ok? You don't look to good

Could I ask who that Yoshi is?

 

[Aaron1997]

Skeeter Mania Seth

Edit: I hate making posts like this so I just put this here lol

 

[Frihetsanka]

Huh, what happened to the Bayo-apocalypse?

Perhaps people will laugh at this post in 2-3 years, but I think people worry too much about Bayonetta. She may be the best character in the game, but she doesn't seem as dominant as 64 Pikachu (), Melee Fox (), or Brawl Metaknight (). We'll probably see some more players switching to Bayonetta, but I don't think we'll see even 30% of the top players playing Bayonetta anytime soon.

Top 33 in Melee EVO 2017 had 51.51% players primarily playing Fox, or 17/33. If you add Falco (who, to be fair, is fairly similar to Fox), you get 20/33, or 60.60%. Plus also used some Fox (though he apparently used more Sheik).

Top 33 in Brawl Apex 2013 had 17/33 Meta Knights, and two using him secondarily.

Top 33 in Smash 4 EVO 2017? 8/33, or 24.24%. Even in Melee and Brawl, where Fox/Meta Knight were fairly dominant, they only had around 50% usage in top 33 or so. We might keep seeing Bayonetta around 20-25%, perhaps even 30%, but I highly doubt she'll reach 50%. Time will tell though.

Let's talk about Mario (). With ANTi possibly switching to Bayonetta and Ally seemingly feeling less motivated, how bright is Mario's competitive future? In 2016 many seemed to believe that he was top 5, yet such a statement seems highly unlikely right now. Personally I'm not even sure he's top 10, there's quite a bit of competition for that spot. With that being said, at worst Mario is at the top of high tier*, he has too many good tools not to be.

*Depends a bit where you consider high tier starts too and where top tier ends.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

He's back

Shulk never left, the only Shulk many players are exposed to in the U.S, is Nicko.

 

[Heracr055]

I've noticed a surge of Corrin players on FG as of late (good ones too). The prevalence of a character is typically the result of said character's placement in a recent tourney. If I recall correctly, Corrin's placing pretty well lately and has been taking sets from some good players. Granted, the only specific instance I can think of right now is Salem losing to MKLeo's Corrin, which just happened. Is Corrin starting to get the results to merit her controversial spot on the tier list?

 

[The-Technique]

Mistake making a very interesting decision to use ZSS against Falln, taking games 1 and 2. Isn't Bayo considered a better ZSS here?

Edit: Scratch that, a super convincing 3-0 courtesy of Mistake's ZSS. Looks like his old main is still looking good.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ok Yes there were only 2 Bayo mains that made top 32 at SSC. A lot of Bayo's were upset and beaten here. So yes it does look like the meta is not going to be dominated by Bayo.

But those 2 Bayo mains did manage to get into top 8 Only one of the 4 Clouds or 2 of the 5 Diddy's also made it to top 8.
Bayo is just a top tier character. Like Diddy, Sheik and Cloud and whoever else you think is on that level

Bayo is not overpowered or broken like the rest of the top tiers, she is perfectly beatable like the rest of the top tiers.

Bayo can do as well as you can expect the rest of the top tiers will do.

Bayo can sometimes do exceptionally well, get multiple placings in top 8 or win an S-Tier events like a top tier

Bayo can sometimes be upset, or occasionally underpreform at times like other top tiers

Bayo is just a very stromg character, strong enough to be among the best characters in the game, but can be beaten like them.

Bayo is nothing more, nothing less

 

[ARISTOS]

One tournament does not reverse a relative period of meta dominance

 

[NairWizard]

Larry, Dabuz, Aba, Zack, and Ally also got 33rd at this tournament. I guess they're not top players any more, right?

 

[|RK|]

One tournament does not reverse a relative period of meta dominance

Meta dominance? You mean two tournaments?

 

[ARISTOS]

Meta dominance? You mean two tournaments?

Closer to a month of strong performances across a wide mix of different as opposed to one tournament that isn't even over.

Meta dominance was a strong word. Call it extremely well performing in the meta

 

[blackghost]

But can we address the blatant double standard at play here? The community is just ready to pounce on a character for virtually no reason besides a well known top player won back to back events. It's absolutely stupid.

mk Leo did what competitors do he practiced and learned and he conquered. He still needs to finish off The event tho. The main issue we as a community is having complainers and not enough true competitors. I dont know how to correct it when it's this far out of control but we see it in "top" players tweeting to ignorant posts on YouTube or Reddit.

 

[NairWizard]

The only double standard I see is the way Bayo players address her matchups. If a Bayo wins a matchup, his opponent played it incorrectly, made mistakes, DI'ed wrong, didn't know the MU.

If Bayo loses an MU, the other player "learned and conquered." So Salem didn't make mistakes against Leo? He didn't show matchup faults in the Corrin MU?


The only problem I have with the complaining is when dislike of Bayo and her playstyle bleeds over into dislike of her players. That's not justifiable at all. I totally sympathize with Bayo players like Mistake who are feeling villified for their character choice. Mistake is a great player and doesn't deserve any hate. His conversions are so incredibly fluid and entertaining. He actually makes Bayo fun to watch, unlike any other Bayo. Mad props to him.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I just got caught up on a little bit of the tourney.....but my head already hurts. Who's in and who's out now?

 

[blackghost]

The only double standard I see is the way Bayo players address her matchups. If a Bayo wins a matchup, his opponent played it incorrectly, made mistakes, DI'ed wrong, didn't know the MU.

If Bayo loses an MU, the other player "learned and conquered." So Salem didn't make mistakes against Leo? He didn't show matchup faults in the Corrin MU?


The only problem I have with the complaining is when dislike of Bayo and her playstyle bleeds over into dislike of her players. That's not justifiable at all. I totally sympathize with Bayo players like Mistake who are feeling villified for their character choice. Mistake is a great player and doesn't deserve any hate. His conversions are so incredibly fluid and entertaining. He actually makes Bayo fun to watch, unlike any other Bayo. Mad props to him.

But when bayo players present evidence for bad di (such as zero sdi up in the last tournament) it gets dismissed. At this point how many top players fight her correctly? What is your honest guess on that is say it's around 4 or 5. Larry, komo, zero (sometimes), void.
bayo players in mirror matches almost never get carried to the top Zack especially makes it look extremely difficult to combo him with bayo. If you are going to bring up mistakes in a match at least have some sort of reference point or example. But if Salem did make mistakes then does Leo deserve special props for punishing him? That's just playing the mu correctly. The fact he did it to Salem is very impressive.
I'm temrs.of double standard I was referring to how bayo is less used than cloud, less event wins than most top he trip tiers (rip shiek), has no examples of a top player switching and dominating with her, and her results rest in a handful of what 4 players? Yet She is op and constantly brings out angry mobs for simply performing well at an event.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What are your guys thoughts on players who only use or think of SDI when Bayonetta is their opponent, yet forget about it when fighting other characters and some with non multi-hit moves where SDI can help to get out of a combo string or live a kill confirm?

 

[NairWizard]

But when bayo players present evidence for bad di (such as zero sdi up in the last tournament) it gets dismissed. At this point how many top players fight her correctly? What is your honest guess on that is say it's around 4 or 5. Larry, komo, zero (sometimes), void.

How many top players fight Mario "correctly"? Cloud? Pikachu? How many top players even play their own character "correctly" (looking at complaints about Mr. R's Sheik here)? It's really easy to say that top players aren't playing correctly. Mistakes work for both sides of a matchup, it's simply disingenuous to say that one side losing means that that that side is playing incorrectly and that the other side losing means that that side is getting punished appropriately. The Bayos are making just as many mistakes. Salem isn't even winning with combos off the top 90% of the time.

I'm temrs.of double standard I was referring to how bayo is less used than cloud, less event wins than most top he trip tiers (rip shiek), has no examples of a top player switching and dominating with her, and her results rest in a handful of what 4 players? Yet She is op and constantly brings out angry mobs for simply performing well at an event.

She's got the highest results in Das Koopa's results chart, but most of the argumentation against her is about her objective risk:reward. She's beatable, no one is saying that she isn't (or very few, at least), but the numbers are just in her favor. This was also the case with pre-nerf Sheik, pre-nerf Luigi (except against a few characters), pre-nerf Diddy, and pre-nerf MK; the numbers were stacked in their favor. When pre-nerf Diddy gets much more reward for dash grabbing you (a fundamental part of any level of play) than you get for evading his dash grab or hitting him with a read it doesn't matter how many tools you have to outplay him, he just wins the matchup against you. Dealing 20% at a 50% chance of hitting vs. taking 40% at a 65% chance of hitting is just a favorable result for the latter, that's just numbers, nothing subjective at all.

She's clearly overtuned. As for the angry mobs, well. What are you going to do? That's competition. There'll always be people who hate the best character for being the best. It doesn't matter if those people complain or not. The people who are truly motivated to learn to beat Bayo will learn to beat Bayo regardless of any complaining.

Contrary to what you might believe, complaining on a forum (or Twitter) and labbing a matchup are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Now that's something I can agree with. DK's strength is in his simplicity, so if anything he seems like a player counterpick because he does carry a number of lousy matchups.

DK is nice to carry as a secondary if you can play him well. Good character that can surprise the hell out of people. And he's somewhat effective against Mario. I myself at least much rather play DK against Mario than Diddy. DK is pretty cool but easily gimped. He can take stocks as easily as Mewtwo, and lives a long time if able to stay on the stage.

 

[blackghost]

How many top players fight Mario "correctly"? Cloud? Pikachu? How many top players even play their own character "correctly" (looking at complaints about Mr. R's Sheik here)? It's really easy to say that top players aren't playing correctly. Mistakes work for both sides of a matchup, it's simply disingenuous to say that one side losing means that that that side is playing incorrectly and that the other side losing means that that side is getting punished appropriately. The Bayos are making just as many mistakes. Salem isn't even winning with combos off the top 90% of the time.



She's got the highest results in Das Koopa's results chart, but most of the argumentation against her is about her objective risk:reward. She's beatable, no one is saying that she isn't (or very few, at least), but the numbers are just in her favor. This was also the case with pre-nerf Sheik, pre-nerf Luigi (except against a few characters), pre-nerf Diddy, and pre-nerf MK; the numbers were stacked in their favor. When pre-nerf Diddy gets much more reward for dash grabbing you (a fundamental part of any level of play) than you get for evading his dash grab or hitting him with a read it doesn't matter how many tools you have to outplay him, he just wins the matchup against you. Dealing 20% at a 50% chance of hitting vs. taking 40% at a 65% chance of hitting is just a favorable result for the latter, that's just numbers, nothing subjective at all.

She's clearly overtuned. As for the angry mobs, well. What are you going to do? That's competition. There'll always be people who hate the best character for being the best. It doesn't matter if those people complain or not. The people who are truly motivated to learn to beat Bayo will learn to beat Bayo regardless of any complaining.

Contrary to what you might believe, complaining on a forum (or Twitter) and labbing a matchup are not mutually exclusive concepts.

More people are obviously fighting Mario correctly has his results have been fluctuating as of late. Cloud also has had fewer and fewer solo mains in singles do well consistently.
Complaining on Twitter and labbing aren't mutually exclusive but it's not what people see and it doesn't bode well for the community when anti, ally, and others sound off on Twitter all the time that's not good for the community internally and it's not good for its external perception. The bayo's that make mistakes aren't getting as far. If we ever get to the point where bayo just outclasses the entire cast in BOTH theory and results we can have a discussion on bans.

But the main issue I have are statements like this:
"Dealing 20% at a 50% chance of hitting vs. taking 40% at a 65% chance of hitting is just a favorable result for the latter, that's just numbers, nothing subjective at all."
Where do you have any evidence to back a statement like that up?

 

[|RK|]

Said it before, but Zenyou levelling up is Mario's last hope.

Mario is maybe the only character these days where the top player isn't also the meta leader.

Salem and ZeRo are both true masters of their characters' potential. Same for Dabuz w/ Rosa, Larry w/ Fox, so on and so forth.

 

[C0rvus]

Ally would rather whine on Twitter than lab his character. Mario is more or less a solved character, but Ally could at least strive to optimize his character a little more. Relying mostly on fundamentals can only get you so far.

 

[NairWizard]

But the main issue I have are statements like this:
"Dealing 20% at a 50% chance of hitting vs. taking 40% at a 65% chance of hitting is just a favorable result for the latter, that's just numbers, nothing subjective at all."
Where do you have any evidence to back a statement like that up?

I was talking about pre-nerf Diddy Kong here.

 

[blackghost]

I was talking about pre-nerf Diddy Kong here.

my mistake then. sorry man

 

[verbatim]

Ally would rather whine on Twitter than lab his character. Mario is more or less a solved character, but Ally could at least strive to optimize his character a little more. Relying mostly on fundamentals can only get you so far.

You realize that he's recovering from surgery right? Otherwise he'd be a lot more active.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

You realize that he's recovering from surgery right? Otherwise he'd be a lot more active.

Wait, what kind of surgery did he get?

 

[Myollnir]

Stuff

I seriously hope that you think other top tiers are overtuned too. Otherwise your thinking doesn't make any sense.

Edit for above : I think it was eye surgery? Not entirely sure though.

 

[verbatim]

He's recovering from eye surgery. He was wearing protective glasses during pools.

 

[The-Technique]

WTF....Salem eliminated by....Mistake?!

 

[blackghost]

WTF....Salem eliminated by....Mistake?!

Mistake played well but he used a thing that bayo mains hate. Bayonetta herself is the most vulnerable character in the game to witch time. A combination of bayo frame data, her movement pattern, and bullet arts make getting witch timed in the mirror very easy. In the mirror it's very common to see the bayo prevail that is the most liberal with witch time win.
It's one of the main reasons captain Zack will often play wii fit in the mirror if he gets witch timed a lot in game one of a mirror match set.

 

[verbatim]

Any character with over 3 matchups worse than 6:4 is awful.

Maybe in Melee or Brawl, but this is a different game.


The difference in tournameny payout dollars betwen 3rd place and the 2nd place (or first...) that Nairo's going to win with a character that gets anihilated by Rosa (also ZSS, ironically) is more than most competitive players make in their lives.

 

[TDK]

Super Smash Con 2017 (1531 Entrants) (MDVA)

1st: Nairo
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Mr. R
5th: WaDi
5th: Mistake
7th: Salem
7th: Shoyo James
9th: Falln
9th: 6WX
9th: Dyr
9th: VoiD
13th: Tweek
13th: MattyG
13th: ESAM
13th: DarkShad
17th: THUNDER
17th: Rideae
17th: Cashmere
17th: Mr. E
17th: Legit
17th: MVD
17th: Komorikiri
17th: Fatality
25th: Light
25th: Seth
25th: Cosmos
25th: Sinji
25th: JJROCKETS
25th: Ryuga
25th: Nicko
25th: Luhtie

Spoiler: rest of top 64

33rd: Dabuz
33rd: Abadango
33rd: Dainosuke
33rd: Tyroy
33rd: Captain Zack
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: SuperGirlKels
33rd: Puppeh
33rd: Peabnut
33rd: Rich Brown
33rd: Ally
33rd: JK
33rd: Larry Lurr
33rd: Ke-Ya
33rd: Dekillsage
33rd: Ned
49th: Dark Wizzy
49th: RFang
49th: Tengu
49th: DSS
49th: Seagull Joe
49th: Aarvark
49th: Colinies
49th: IcyMist
49th: Smasher1001
49th: Frozen
49th: NameLess
49th: Lycan
49th: Xaltis
49th: Samsora
49th: Zage
49th: Dandy Penguin

That was the best completed losers run in this game so far.