Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Das Koopa]

Low Tier City 5 (August 5th-6th) (South) (384 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: P1 | Tweek
2nd: TSM | ZeRo
3rd: Mistake
4th: PG | ESAM
5th: SWG | Lima
5th: P1 | Captain Zack
7th: MSF | Larry Lurr ,
7th: PG | Abadango ,
9th: SRC | Light the Lantern ,
9th: 4BR | Illusion ,
9th: UG | Deluxemenu
9th: FX | Karna
13th: Chuck Nasty
13th: BTB SM | Kurry
13th: BTB SM | ARMY
13th: Twi


Smash Factor 6 (August 4th-6th) (Mexico) (319 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
2nd: beast | Mr. R
3rd: CLG | NAKAT ,
4th: DNG | Kameme ,
5th: TSG | Bedgar
5th: HY 6S | Javi ,
7th: TR/MH | Rox ,
7th: Sucarella | Serge ,
9th: CS | Wonf ,
9th: SF | Captain Levi ,
9th: Chag
9th: LF | Chaplin
13th: OBA
13th: Waymas
13th: Richi
13th: IMT | ANTi ,

Spoiler: Kingslayer 4 (August 5th) (Midwest) (105 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Cosmos
2nd: Dyr
3rd: JK
4th: Zinoto
5th: LOE1 ,
5th: Myran
7th: Nom
7th: Midnight

Spoiler: Clash of the Carolinas (August 5th) (Southeast) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Fatality
2nd: RFang ,
3rd: Donquavious
4th: Peabnut
5th: Eldin
5th: DachiTea
7th: Ferf
7th: Ak8s Phantasmagoria

Spoiler: Old Fashioned (August 5th) (Midwest) (113 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: DarkShad
2nd: JJROCKETS
3rd: StardusT
4th: Mystearica
5th: Sells
5th: SNooFL
7th: Percy
7th: JDB!

Spoiler: COUNTERPICK (August 5th) (Florida) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Day
2nd: Kiki
3rd: saj ,
4th: Zeta

Spoiler: TGL Monthly 18 (August 5th) (Florida) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MVD
2nd: Mute Ace
3rd: Blank
4th: Xaltis

Spoiler: Invasion 18 (August 5th) (New England) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Light
2nd: Pugwest
3rd: Marss
4th: Raffi-X

Spoiler: Salt Mines 2017 (August 5th) (West Canada) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Exodia
2nd: Silver
3rd: MOOBESOR
4th: Alphicans ,

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 548
Diddy Kong: 539
Cloud: 432
Sheik: 368
Sonic: 321.5
Fox: 308
Mario: 303
Zero Suit Samus: 246.5
Rosalina & Luma: 246
Ryu: 185.5
Mewtwo: 170.5
Corrin: 138
Mega Man: 129
Meta Knight: 125
Pikachu: 117
Donkey Kong: 116
Peach: 113.5
Ness: 108.5
Marth: 108.5
Captain Falcon: 108
Luigi: 99
Villager: 92.5
Greninja: 87.5
Bowser: 84
Lucina: 69.5
Olimar: 66.5
Toon Link: 64.5
R.O.B.: 63
Lucas: 62.5
Samus: 55.5
Lucario: 54.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Yoshi: 43.5
Little Mac: 42.5
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 33.5
Wario: 30
Charizard: 28
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Link: 22.5
Pac-Man: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

 

[Rizen]

I want to address something, this:

Low tier 5 results were whack

I'm not talking about Zero getting second. I was expecting Zero in Grand Finals. LOL it's against Cloud, who is good against Diddy, and Zero vs Esam was hype.

What I didn't like were who was in top 8. Aside from Tweek, Zero, Esam and Larry Lurr, there were four Bayonettas. FOUR. That's CRAZY. Yea there were alot of good players but why are so many of them BAYONETTA? She's an annoyance and all but this is ridiculous.

Results here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Low_Tier_City_5

...Is not an unreasonable post. He's not saying "ban bayo" or "Bayo can't be beaten". 4 Bayos in the top 8 is something; you don't see Sheik popping up like that. Bayo is leading in Das Koopa's rankings and imo the meta currently revolves around her more than any other character.

We don't need people to respond by calling it whining or saying his posts don't belong here. Give constructive criticism or don't respond. You know who you are.

 

[Y2Kay]

That's not a competitive insight. All he did was say he disliked seeing 4 bayo's in top 8 of a tournament. So bruh? He isn't even making a point. He could at least explain to us why having half of top 8 being bayo (for just ONE tournament, mind you) is ridiculous.

 

[Rizen]

That's not a competitive insight. All he did was say he disliked seeing 4 bayo's in top 8 of a tournament. So bruh? He isn't even making a point. He could at least explain to us why having half of top 8 being bayo (for just ONE tournament, mind you) is ridiculous.

Referring to current results is nothing new in this thread and no one else got this kind of hate for doing it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Referring to current results is nothing new in this thread and no one else got this kind of hate for doing it.

We already had the results for LTC 5 posted, and slapping on a "bayo is ridiculous" comment doesn't make it more useful.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Low Tier City 5 (August 5th-6th) (South) (384 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: P1 | Tweek
2nd: TSM | ZeRo
3rd: Mistake
4th: PG | ESAM
5th: SWG | Lima
5th: P1 | Captain Zack
7th: MSF | Larry Lurr ,
7th: PG | Abadango ,
9th: SRC | Light the Lantern ,
9th: 4BR | Illusion ,
9th: UG | Deluxemenu
9th: FX | Karna
13th: Chuck Nasty
13th: BTB SM | Kurry
13th: BTB SM | ARMY
13th: Twi


Smash Factor 6 (August 4th-6th) (Mexico) (319 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
2nd: beast | Mr. R
3rd: CLG | NAKAT ,
4th: DNG | Kameme ,
5th: TSG | Bedgar
5th: HY 6S | Javi ,
7th: TR/MH | Rox ,
7th: Sucarella | Serge ,
9th: CS | Wonf ,
9th: SF | Captain Levi ,
9th: Chag
9th: LF | Chaplin
13th: OBA
13th: Waymas
13th: Richi
13th: IMT | ANTi ,

Spoiler: Kingslayer 4 (August 5th) (Midwest) (105 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Cosmos
2nd: Dyr
3rd: JK
4th: Zinoto
5th: LOE1 ,
5th: Myran
7th: Nom
7th: Midnight

Spoiler: Clash of the Carolinas (August 5th) (Southeast) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Fatality
2nd: RFang ,
3rd: Donquavious
4th: Peabnut
5th: Eldin
5th: DachiTea
7th: Ferf
7th: Ak8s Phantasmagoria

Spoiler: Old Fashioned (August 5th) (Midwest) (113 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: DarkShad
2nd: JJROCKETS
3rd: StardusT
4th: Mystearica
5th: Sells
5th: SNooFL
7th: Percy
7th: JDB!

Spoiler: COUNTERPICK (August 5th) (Florida) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Day
2nd: Kiki
3rd: saj ,
4th: Zeta

Spoiler: TGL Monthly 18 (August 5th) (Florida) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MVD
2nd: Mute Ace
3rd: Blank
4th: Xaltis

Spoiler: Invasion 18 (August 5th) (New England) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Light
2nd: Pugwest
3rd: Marss
4th: Raffi-X

Spoiler: Salt Mines 2017 (August 5th) (West Canada) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Exodia
2nd: Silver
3rd: MOOBESOR
4th: Alphicans ,

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 548
Diddy Kong: 539
Cloud: 432
Sheik: 368
Sonic: 321.5
Fox: 308
Mario: 303
Zero Suit Samus: 246.5
Rosalina & Luma: 246
Ryu: 185.5
Mewtwo: 170.5
Corrin: 138
Mega Man: 129
Meta Knight: 125
Pikachu: 117
Donkey Kong: 116
Peach: 113.5
Ness: 108.5
Marth: 108.5
Captain Falcon: 108
Luigi: 99
Villager: 92.5
Greninja: 87.5
Bowser: 84
Lucina: 69.5
Olimar: 66.5
Toon Link: 64.5
R.O.B.: 63
Lucas: 62.5
Samus: 55.5
Lucario: 54.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Yoshi: 43.5
Little Mac: 42.5
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 33.5
Wario: 30
Charizard: 28
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Link: 22.5
Pac-Man: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

Wow Chuck Nasty made it pretty dang far with Solo Zard.

Props to him for that.

 

[kynlem]

4 Bayos in the top 8 is something; you don't see Sheik popping up like that.

Literally 5 Sheiks in Top 8 at Smash Factor. Should we freak out about her too?

 

[Nu~]

What is the general consensus on zard at this point anyway?

 

[Rizen]

Literally 5 Sheiks in Top 8 at Smash Factor. Should we freak out about her too?

The only people freaking out are the people denying Bayo's success. This is what I'm talking about; anyone who mentions Bayo racking up results is labeled as "freaking out", "whining" and told "not to post in this thread anymore". People are complaining about Bayo being banned when it was never even brought up in this thread. Did anyone say these things to people who talk about Sheik's success? No. This thread has devolved into unproductive clicks.

And about Sheik: Bayo has almost 200 more points.
Bayonetta: 548
Diddy Kong: 539
Cloud: 432
Sheik: 368

Maybe I'll try back some other time but this is getting on my nerves. Peace.

 

[Illusion.]

Das Koopa Not sure if this matters, but the only time I played in bracket was against ZeRo and I lost. The entirety of my run was basically solo

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

What is the general consensus on zard at this point anyway?

Third best superheavy, behind Bowser and DK. Good b&b in dthrow fair, great jab and dtilt, and plenty of viable kill options (if few confirms). Suffers from lack of approach options, difficulty escaping combos, and few good landing options outside of downb mixups. Has potential to break into mid tier (and supporters to say his meta is there), but almost universally agreed to be within bottom 15 or 20.

 

[Laken64]

I had never heard of Mistake, Lima, and JK before they picked up Bayo. That's not to say they weren't good players, so someone fill in the details if you can - but I can say with confidence these Bayos mains have ascended the ladder at an unusual pace.

Mistake was the #1 in his region as a ZSS main (or at least a regional threat) b4 bayo came out. IDK about the rest tbh (lima is a naifu???) , but in relation to what you've said and what i've seen on NL analysis so far is that Mistake and Lima like to swing, A LOT. They know how to do their conversions and read sdi and di (for the most part) in order to get the stock but when in neutral they try to force their hand and bully their way past neutral so they can reach the advantage state they know so well. This is something i've noticed from mistake and lima in general, you make a mistake (shoot) and they know how to convert that into heavy damage or a stock but in neutral you'll see them trying to get in with heel slides and misspaced fairs ect. Dark.Pch hit the mark by saying they aren't patient and because of this players who are (Zero tweek) can take advantage and win neutral most of the time to eventually lead into a stock, but because its bayo screw up once and it doesnt matter what lead you have.

But with Bayo, it's on a completely different level.

Bayo is the performance enhancing drug of Smash 4.

And like any drug it has its side effects, you have "exponential growth" on one aspect while you have "stunted growth" on the other side. RN seeing Mistake and Lima (The new Bayos in the spotlight) the "growth" is a devastating punish game and the knowledge of conversions and abusing the disadvantage of your opponents character to the fullest while the "stunted growth" is in neutral in general followed by a lack of patience. Now one would wonder why is neutral stunted and the answer is simple: Bayos disadvantage state. Bayo has the best disadvantage state by far and is the only character who doesn't care what part of the stage she's at, offstage? cornered? she doesn't care. She is also the only character in the entire game to convert her disadvantage state into her devastating advantage state which can lead into heavy damage or a stock. Up b, BW and WT are all tools she can use to turn the tide and kill you, not to mention rage and rage up b. Try to edgeguard her? She can hit you with up b fair you to the blast zone and still make it back just because you wanted to challenge her offstage. When you give all these tools to someone who a mid lv player neutral becomes less of a focus. After all, why focus one neutral when if im down by 100% and on last stock with my opponent I can kill them off of one small mistake they make even though they've clearly controlled the whole match until then. Look at zero vs mistake winners side game 3 last stock. Mistake side b'ed into Zero countless times in neutral and got punished but zero slipped once and died for it. Zero adapted hard and bodied him everytime in every way in neutral to a 3-0. Also look at lima vs tweek and zero, the stuff he does in neutral is simply not ok by any means but as long he gets the one win in neutral to took stocks but lost in the end because tweek and zero both bodied him in neutral. This is why bayo irks me, before her the closest thing to her was ZSS but she had clear weaknesses, laggy grab and a lacking neutral, you can make rage comebacks but if it was by grab you take a huge gamble, bayo doesn't have to gamble at all for that. My main fear is that those who pick up bayo for the very reasons i've talked about will cripple themselves down the line and it will become a sad trend among new and upcoming bayo mains as a whole (Like westballz and the new generation of s impact i've heard in melee) not to mention when counterplay arises many of them will be in for a rude awakening.

@blackghost you are the local bayo around here so please correct me if I have said anything wrong here, this is just based off my observations during ninjalink's stream so any critic or further insight would be helpful and much appreciated

 

[TDK]

you don't see Sheik popping up like that.

Smash Factor 6 (August 4th-6th) (Mexico) (319 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: FOX MVG | MKLeo
2nd: beast | Mr. R
3rd: CLG | NAKAT
4th: DNG | Kameme
5th: TSG | Bedgar
5th: HY 6S | Javi
7th: TR/MH | Rox
7th: Sucarella | Serge

The only people freaking out are the people denying Bayo's success. This is what I'm talking about; anyone who mentions Bayo racking up results is labeled as "freaking out", "whining" and told "not to post in this thread anymore". People are complaining about Bayo being banned when it was never even brought up in this thread. Did anyone say these things to people who talk about Sheik's success? No. This thread has devolved into unproductive clicks.

The thing is, since LTC5 we've had a few posters who've come in to do nothing but complain about Bayo. It's not the posts themselves, but rather the low quality of a lot of the Bayo-directed posts in here, especially from people who don't post here regularly.

This isn't the Competitive Complaining Institution, and if you're just coming in here to whine or bemoan about Bayo (or any character) just stay out.

 

[R3D3MON]

(Like westballz and the new generation of s impact i've heard in melee)

Sorry but this is incorrect lol. Westballz has extremely good neutral game that efficiently baits out mistakes from opponents while making tons of mixups with ground (e.g. dash dancing) and platform movement (e.g. shield dropping).

Westballz suffers from a combination of areas of the game he has yet to fully polish. One is his lack of laser use which can limit the amount of space he takes up in neutral as well as pressure to the opponent. Another is that he does not do very well during pressure moments. Finally, his edgeguarding can sometimes be poor because he somewhat overreaches in situation he doesn't need to (this also extends to his punish game somewhat).

Don't just pick up incorrect stuff from reddit or drunk mang0 please.

 

[Laken64]

Sorry but this is incorrect lol. Westballz has extremely good neutral game that efficiently baits out mistakes from opponents while making tons of mixups with ground (e.g. dash dancing) and platform movement (e.g. shield dropping).

Westballz suffers from a combination of areas of the game he has yet to fully polish. One is his lack of laser use which can limit the amount of space he takes up in neutral as well as pressure to the opponent. Another is that he does not do very well during pressure moments. Finally, his edgeguarding can sometimes be poor because he somewhat overreaches in situation he doesn't need to (this also extends to his punish game somewhat).

Don't just pick up incorrect stuff from reddit or drunk mang0 please.

Ah Sorry i didn't actually know who it was from but I've heard it going around the community and i felt it was relating to what i was typing. My bad.

 

[Krysco]

With all the doom and gloom about Bayo, if she is centralizing the meta or will likely do so in the future then I think this would be an appropriate way to direct the conversation into something more appropriate: what character(s), if any has the best chances at handling Bayo? Which ones have the highest chance of getting positive mu's vs her and which ones currently go even with her? Most I recall is Cloud, Sheik, Rosa and maybe Diddy? Further down the tier list, I know I used to see Greninja's name mentioned (probably just due to SSHC or whatever it's called) and I believe Ness and Toon Link are still brought up from time to time.

What stages are best or perhaps the least bad to fight Bayo on? Obviously that depends on the character she's fighting but is there a general consensus? I recall it being mentioned that Lylat can be pretty bad since the tilt lets her use neutral b on the entire cast more effectively. I also recall FD being mentioned but it not mattering too much since Bayo's can stagestrike it.

And I'll even go ahead and ask a question pertaining more to myself. As someone who's only fought Bayo's on FG, when I do start going to tournaments in Ontario (will likely start this month or next) which of my 3 best has the least awful chance against Bayo? . My immediate guess would go to M2 simply due to him being a top tier but the other 2 have more disjoints, Robin has Checkmate and Roy tends to have good combos and tech chases on fastfallers which I believe Bayo is considered? I would list too but I don't focus on them as much nor am I anywhere near as polished with them as I am with the other 3.

 

[TDK]

Mega Smash Mondays 108 (102 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: VoiD
2nd: Falln
3rd: Eon
4th: Elegant
5th: Aarvark
5th: Charger
7th: Razo
7th: S2H

 

[NairWizard]

As someone who's only fought Bayo's on FG, when I do start going to tournaments in Ontario (will likely start this month or next) which of my 3 best has the least awful chance against Bayo?

whichever is your best

seriously, if you've never been to tournaments before and only have FG experience, you're going to find yourself losing not to Bayo but just to better players in general, so pick your best character and stick with it until you get good enough to top 3 your events, then you can think about character counterpicks

 

[Bowserboy3]

I went to a relatively small tournament over the weekend in the UK. Amidst all of the Bayonetta discussion (and seeing as she's one of my three best characters), I decided to myself that I would go Bayonetta for pretty much all of the tournament. I wanted to use this chance to not only develop my own skills, but to also see how many people actually know what to do against her.

I used Rosalina for one game during pools which I won, and Marth for three games; one during pools, once during doubles, both of which I won, and once to try in GF's, which I lost. Everything else I went Bayonetta, and I managed to get 2nd place.

Now, one important thing I picked up on while playing her, is that while people are giving her way too much respect (people really aren't punishing landings after using aerial specials), more importantly, from the pool of players I faced that weekend, people are also overextending FAR too much when they get advantage, which leads to big openings for Bayonetta.

What I am getting at, is if your "combo" isn't actually going to combo, stop. Don't try to overextend. This is another thing players need to adapt to while playing against Bayonetta, arguably more than knowing the best SDI. SDI can save you, but if you're putting yourself in terrible positions in the first place, why bother?

I got at least 6 different Witch Times during the whole tournament run off of people trying to overextend combos that aren't true. Luckily, I got two of them on stream as examples.

Examples:
https://youtu.be/jAM4soK-Y64?t=470
https://youtu.be/ZSBMnNjQl64?t=625

We rarely see this kind of thing at top level, because players usually know their boundaries and limits, and don't try to push too hard if there is no combo. But I though it was worth bringing up. If you aren't sure whether your move will combo, don't try it.

Also, I am a big advocate that Bat Within isn't always as dumb as people make it out to be; it can be, but it still puts Bayonetta in bad positions a lot of times.

This, however, was not one of those moments. This is by far the silliest thing I've had happen to me with Bat Within:
https://youtu.be/ZSBMnNjQl64?t=84

(as a side note, I'd appreciate it if anyone would watch through my top 8 run and analyse my play and give me some advice - really looking to improve after this; this was the best I've ever played. This is my first game -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAM4soK-Y64. You can private message me or something if you like. Much appreciated!)

 

[Nobie]

Sorry but this is incorrect lol. Westballz has extremely good neutral game that efficiently baits out mistakes from opponents while making tons of mixups with ground (e.g. dash dancing) and platform movement (e.g. shield dropping).

Westballz suffers from a combination of areas of the game he has yet to fully polish. One is his lack of laser use which can limit the amount of space he takes up in neutral as well as pressure to the opponent. Another is that he does not do very well during pressure moments. Finally, his edgeguarding can sometimes be poor because he somewhat overreaches in situation he doesn't need to (this also extends to his punish game somewhat).

Don't just pick up incorrect stuff from reddit or drunk mang0 please.

To be at the very highest levels of Melee, you have to have at least a decent neutral, so it would be wrong to say that his neutral is awful. However, I noticed something about your choice of words in describing how Westballz does well, which is that you emphasized the tech used in neutral like dash dancing and shield dropping.

This sticks out to me because when I see other players with fantastic neutral talked about in Melee and Smash 4, it's not the tech that gets the spotlight but the decision-making. When you see people talk about PPMD's neutral, it's not just that he dash dances, but that he's so smart about it that even Armada calls it the best there is. When you see ZeRo talk about Ranai's neutral, he talks about the mental challenge of trying to outwit each other.

I might be mistaken, but I feel like that says something, like Westballz is very good at using tech to bolster his neutral, and the lesson younger Falcos take from this is that getting good in the neutral is just about learning the right "tricks."

That's where I think it's not that far off to say that Bayo is sort of Melee Falco-esque. It's like her combo game can overshadow her neutral, but, unlike Falco, Bayo also has a crazy disadvantage state that lets her get away with more mistakes.

However, I think this might be why Little Mac has been giving CaptainZack so much trouble.

Against a lot of other characters, Bayo can quickly turn the tables on an overextension and eliminate a stock. They chase her into the air, hoping to land that last hit, only to get witch twisted and die. But it's not like Little Mac is going to pursue anyone into the air. Instead, he pressures from the ground and his damage comes from short and sweet combos. It doesn't matter as much how good her disadvantage state is if it never factors into Mac matches. On top of that, the strength of Bayo's neutral is that it's like a smokescreen: huge hitboxes + lots of burst movement + the threat of witch time makes it difficult and confusing to challenge. But Mac's tools can eat through that. Armor powers through big hitboxes. Superior frame data lets him land hits others wouldn't And you know what can keep a Bayo fearful of throwing out Witch Times? A KO punch.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Good post Nobie .

Though I read one point, and made me think...

Just a friendly reminder to all that you can indeed Witch Time KO Punch...

 

[Nobie]

Good post Nobie .

Though I read one point, and made me think...

Just a friendly reminder to all that you can indeed Witch Time KO Punch...

Thanks. Though with the KO Punch vs Witch Time thing, I was thinking not about direct KO punch vs Witch Time interaction, and more how KO punch (or setup into KO Punch) is an incredibly efficient whiffed Witch Time punish.

 

[kynlem]

The only people freaking out are the people denying Bayo's success. This is what I'm talking about; anyone who mentions Bayo racking up results is labeled as "freaking out", "whining" and told "not to post in this thread anymore". People are complaining about Bayo being banned when it was never even brought up in this thread. Did anyone say these things to people who talk about Sheik's success? No. This thread has devolved into unproductive clicks.

You're right, my phrasing was bad there. What I was trying to show is that this is not as huge if a deal as people are making it out to be.

5 Sheiks in a Top 8 and no one even notices, as evidenced by your post. But as soon as Bayonetta does the same thing she is broken. People are going out of their way trying to find a reason to be mad at Bayonetta. I have no idea why (maybe all of that going 0-2 is finally getting to them) but until she completely dominates every single event we don't have a problem.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh look, another post about

Furiating character design aside, am I wrong for saying the way Bayonetta has elevated many of the players who picked her up is kind of unprecedented? I believe the matter deserves some attention.

Salem is probably the worst example of this simply because he was a great Brawl player and is obviously very talented in Smash 4 with a variety of characters. Nonetheless, he wasn't getting any notable Smash 4 results until he picked up Bayo.

Captain Zack was a very talented Peach main before he picked up Bayo, but his results weren't much to speak of. I had a few sessions against his Peach back in 2015 myself, and we went back and forth. I never imagined he would soon be a top 10 player.

I had never heard of Mistake, Lima, and JK before they picked up Bayo. That's not to say they weren't good players, so someone fill in the details if you can - but I can say with confidence these Bayos mains have ascended the ladder at an unusual pace.

But new players always emerge, you might say...

Yet this kind of meteoric ascendancy in the middle of Smash 4's life cycle just doesn't seem to happen with the other 57 characters in nearly the same way.

Take , for example. The best Cloud mains are Komorikiri and Tweek. Komo was already one of the best players in Smash 4 as a main. Tweek certainly wasn't on the level he is now as a main, but I would argue that he got freakishly good results for using such a trash-tier character, and very obviously was destined to become one of the better Smash 4 players if he picked up just about any decent character.

I'm not saying Bayo players are the only ones who have emerged from the depths of nowhere well into the game's life cycle. Another player I used to grind against on WiFi, DarkShadTheLegend (a.k.a. DarkShad) rose tremendously after dropping for . Few people knew about Elegant this time last year and now but he singlehandedly made relevant again and is widely regarded as one of the better Smash 4 players.

So, I'm not saying this doesn't happen at all with the other 57 characters.

But with Bayo, it's on a completely different level.

Bayo is the performance enhancing drug of Smash 4.

What does this mean? I think we're going to get more and more Smash 4 players who are tired of their middling results and devote themselves to learning Bayo, and that the meta will continue to centralize around her more and more. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

So basically meta knight in brawl but not as easy and not as strong.

Because It was literally the same thing in Brawl.

This is what happens when you have STRONG characters that are not overly dificult to play or become good with.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

The trouble with only going for true combos against Bayo is that most characters don't have true combos that reliably do a large amount of damage. By contrast, if Bayo ladders you but doesn't kill you, she probably still did about 40%. So if you spend all your time only going for safe things, you'll get out-damaged by a ton. Winning in one aspect, losing overall. At some point, you have to take the risk. Interactions in neutral/outside of hitstun usually involve some amount of chance, so you have to hope that the chance you take doesn't burn you. Some optimized characters can avoid this by having legit long true combos (Sheik), crazy damage output off of single hits (Cloud, M2, maybe Lucario), or having their damage count more since they kill early via confirms (Bowser and DK).

I think my main suspicion as an observer is that Bayos should be much more willing to throw out Witch Time. Even if you stale it, you don't really lose much by using it liberally, in my opinion. At high percents, a short Witch Time does just as well as a long one. The risk-reward ratio is in Bayo's favor.

About Diddy: is ZeRo's unusual patience masking some of the character's flaws? This occurred to me while watching him play ESAM at LTC5. ESAM got out to a lead fairly often, particularly in Game 4, where he took an early stock and had about 50% on him at the time. ESAM backed off and started using TJolt to force ZeRo to approach, and ESAM got to build more damage while retreating with Quick Attack as necessary. But then he just started going in again, and ZeRo got the better of him. This is a particularly glaring example, but I think ZeRo knows that most players will eventually lose patience against him even when they have the lead. So if he plucks a banana and dashes back and forth, his opponent will come rushing at him like he's a matador waving a cape.

Diddy isn't the best at approaching, and he's also incredible at reacting, countering, and stuffing his opponents. This ties into ZeRo's matchup chart and his and WaDi's opinion that Diddy-M2 is even. If you have the lead against Diddy, for the love of God, don't go in swinging against his fortress. You earned that lead. Make him work.

Is that why I may be wrong about Bayo? I think she's good, but I don't expect her to be in her own tier. But I've been judging by how people played her, and Smash players aren't known for patience. Salem is the exception. If he has the lead, he will wait all day for you to approach. Maybe that makes all the difference.

 

[Luigi player]

I also don't know why Luigi has a favorable matchup against Bayo and Diddy. Can someone explain this to me? Diddy to me in particular seems like he would shutdown Luigi HARD in neutral and win the game from his kill confirms, while Luigi has to essentially fish for edgeguards, up smash, or back throw.

People've just been riding on the few wins Elegant got against Bayo and then he even beat Salem. Likely most Bayos didn't know the MU at all. I mean it's probably not really bad, but having an advantage against Bayo is pretty laughable to me. It's even at best and imo it's -1. Luigi gets juggled really hard and has a super hard time punishing anything from her when she finally has to land. In this situation you can also mostly just go for grabs because anything else is too risky because of witchtime. And one tiny misspace or punish-messup and you're in her combos that do 30% or possibly KO. She can wall out Luigi with bairs and even dtilt is scary because it converts into an uair-kill at like 110 unless you DI away and is almost unpunishable (about as annoying as Diddys imo). Her possible options to get combos and everything are just too safe. Trying to punish her landings with anything besides grabs is too risky because you could die for it if the Bayo predicts it.

Against Diddy in neutral Luigi has his Fireballs. They stop banana/sideB and give Diddy a rough time trying to go in. You have to camp with them and choose the right times to stop/go in for grabs or whatever. Luigi also combos Diddy really well and can trap his landings easier than most with his usmash. And then he also has his long lasting downB hitbox to possibly gimp Diddys upB when he drops low (force that with Fireballs and threaten monkey flip with bairs), although if Diddy charges upB from far away it's in his favor to not get hit by anything, but it's still a sticky situation.
I'm not completely sure if Luigi has the advantage, but it's possible.
From what I've seen from Elegant he doesn't camp enough with Fireballs against Diddy.


Also I've seen Concon do work as well, not just Elegant. Getting like 33rd and stuff at very big/stacked tourneys. So even though it's not as high as Elegant it's still pretty decent. Other Luigis could do well too but are kinda scattered around the world and/or only have him as a 2nd/co-main.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Witch Time can counter Jigglypuff's Sing for some reason. It doesn't even do any damage!

 

[Game7a1]

Witch Time can counter Jigglypuff's Sing for some reason. It doesn't even do any damage!

Well, all counters are programmed to activate against Sing in this game. It partly is why it's one of the few moves that can give some counter users Stun Jacket.

 

[R3D3MON]

Spoiler

To be at the very highest levels of Melee, you have to have at least a decent neutral, so it would be wrong to say that his neutral is awful. However, I noticed something about your choice of words in describing how Westballz does well, which is that you emphasized the tech used in neutral like dash dancing and shield dropping.

This sticks out to me because when I see other players with fantastic neutral talked about in Melee and Smash 4, it's not the tech that gets the spotlight but the decision-making. When you see people talk about PPMD's neutral, it's not just that he dash dances, but that he's so smart about it that even Armada calls it the best there is. When you see ZeRo talk about Ranai's neutral, he talks about the mental challenge of trying to outwit each other.

I might be mistaken, but I feel like that says something, like Westballz is very good at using tech to bolster his neutral, and the lesson younger Falcos take from this is that getting good in the neutral is just about learning the right "tricks."

That's where I think it's not that far off to say that Bayo is sort of Melee Falco-esque. It's like her combo game can overshadow her neutral, but, unlike Falco, Bayo also has a crazy disadvantage state that lets her get away with more mistakes.

However, I think this might be why Little Mac has been giving CaptainZack so much trouble.

Against a lot of other characters, Bayo can quickly turn the tables on an overextension and eliminate a stock. They chase her into the air, hoping to land that last hit, only to get witch twisted and die. But it's not like Little Mac is going to pursue anyone into the air. Instead, he pressures from the ground and his damage comes from short and sweet combos. It doesn't matter as much how good her disadvantage state is if it never factors into Mac matches. On top of that, the strength of Bayo's neutral is that it's like a smokescreen: huge hitboxes + lots of burst movement + the threat of witch time makes it difficult and confusing to challenge. But Mac's tools can eat through that. Armor powers through big hitboxes. Superior frame data lets him land hits others wouldn't And you know what can keep a Bayo fearful of throwing out Witch Times? A KO punch.

LOL at dash dancing being a high level "tech". Dash dancing is so good in neutral because it is the ultimate mix up tool for forcing bad approaches or mistakes. I think you totally missed the point of my post when I said westballz has great mixups. That's why he's a top level falco because falco actually requires some of the most precise and smart neutrals in order to play him at the level westballz is playing. Oh btw, PP's falco also uses extensive dash dancing along with lasers, which is why PP's neutral is even stronger than westballz (he has even more tools to pressure and force bad options from his opponents). Just because dash dancing is a little trick and almost non existent as a proper neutral tool in Smash 4 doesn't mean the same thing in melee.

Shield dropping is also another thing. Everybody in high-top level melee can shield drop. The hard part is actually using it as another mixup option in neutral along with dash dancing (this is why Plup is so good at shield dropping; as leffen said he can accurately predict and react to opponents' commitments with shield drops and platform movement in general)


Stop trying to compare Smash 4 to melee or Bayo to Falco please. It really doesn't make any sense and is not warranted.

 

[Nobie]

LOL at dash dancing being a high level "tech". Dash dancing is so good in neutral because it is the ultimate mix up tool for forcing bad approaches or mistakes. I think you totally missed the point of my post when I said westballz has great mixups. That's why he's a top level falco because falco actually requires some of the most precise and smart neutrals in order to play him at the level westballz is playing. Oh btw, PP's falco also uses extensive dash dancing along with lasers, which is why PP's neutral is even stronger than westballz (he has even more tools to pressure and force bad options from his opponents). Just because dash dancing is a little trick and almost non existent as a proper neutral tool in Smash 4 doesn't mean the same thing in melee.

Shield dropping is also another thing. Everybody in high-top level melee can shield drop. The hard part is actually using it as another mixup option in neutral along with dash dancing (this is why Plup is so good at shield dropping; as leffen said he can accurately predict and react to opponents' commitments with shield drops and platform movement in general)


Stop trying to compare Smash 4 to melee or Bayo to Falco please. It really doesn't make any sense and is not warranted.

I'm well aware that dash dancing and to a lesser extent shield dropping are basically fundamental building blocks of high level Melee, and my point wasn't to dismiss that as being merely "tech." Nor was it to say that Bayonetta is just like Falco. If anything, it was to say that, much like how a lot of aspiring Falcos end up focusing too much on their punish game and don't sufficiently develop other aspects, this can potentially happen to Bayo.

It's not Westballz's fault that his fans only see his combos and not necessarily how he navigates the stage, or his smart decisions. But due to the nature of Melee and it's mechanical difficulty, it becomes easier to confuse "being able to do neutral things" and "being able to play good neutral."

No character in Smash 4 has the kind of basic tech requirements of a Melee Falco or Fox, but the strengths of Bayonetta are such that she can likely get away with a lot of things because of how tricky and dangerous her neutral tools are. She can take out a lot of lower level players without being "smart." There's still plenty of room for smart players to excel with her though.

 

[R3D3MON]

Spoiler

I'm well aware that dash dancing and to a lesser extent shield dropping are basically fundamental building blocks of high level Melee, and my point wasn't to dismiss that as being merely "tech." Nor was it to say that Bayonetta is just like Falco. If anything, it was to say that, much like how a lot of aspiring Falcos end up focusing too much on their punish game and don't sufficiently develop other aspects, this can potentially happen to Bayo.

It's not Westballz's fault that his fans only see his combos and not necessarily how he navigates the stage, or his smart decisions. But due to the nature of Melee and it's mechanical difficulty, it becomes easier to confuse "being able to do neutral things" and "being able to play good neutral."

No character in Smash 4 has the kind of basic tech requirements of a Melee Falco or Fox, but the strengths of Bayonetta are such that she can likely get away with a lot of things because of how tricky and dangerous her neutral tools are. She can take out a lot of lower level players without being "smart." There's still plenty of room for smart players to excel with her though.

Then you should compare bayo's neutral to melee sheik's neutral, since both have neutral options that are known to be "noob slayers".

 

[Y2Kay]

LOL at dash dancing being a high level "tech". Dash dancing is so good in neutral because it is the ultimate mix up tool for forcing bad approaches or mistakes. I think you totally missed the point of my post when I said westballz has great mixups. That's why he's a top level falco because falco actually requires some of the most precise and smart neutrals in order to play him at the level westballz is playing. Oh btw, PP's falco also uses extensive dash dancing along with lasers, which is why PP's neutral is even stronger than westballz (he has even more tools to pressure and force bad options from his opponents). Just because dash dancing is a little trick and almost non existent as a proper neutral tool in Smash 4 doesn't mean the same thing in melee.

Shield dropping is also another thing. Everybody in high-top level melee can shield drop. The hard part is actually using it as another mixup option in neutral along with dash dancing (this is why Plup is so good at shield dropping; as leffen said he can accurately predict and react to opponents' commitments with shield drops and platform movement in general)


Stop trying to compare Smash 4 to melee or Bayo to Falco please. It really doesn't make any sense and is not warranted.

This is little off topic but you need to chill. Nobie is the last guy in this thread who deserves your “not warranted” snark.

 

[TDK]

To distract from this... mess here's an update of the Ryus confirmed for SCR Saga so far:

Locus (Pacific Northwest)
Takera (Japan)
Dunkmaster Ragna (Western Canada)
Gen (Tristate?)
Nathan (South America)
Patrino (Europe)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Wow, nearly five hours between the last two posts...on a more positive note what are the differences between character usage and character results? I mean a lot of people can use the same character but not get results....right?

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Of course. There are a crap ton of Links on For Glory, but very little tournament results.

 

[Kofu]

To distract from this... mess here's an update of the Ryus confirmed for SCR Saga so far:

Locus (Pacific Northwest)
Takera (Japan)
Dunkmaster Ragna (Western Canada)
Gen (Tristate?)
Nathan (South America)
Patrino (Europe)

If I can find the page, y'all can help us (Utah) get PiXL and Diablo out!

 

[freeziebeatz]

If I can find the page, y'all can help us (Utah) get PiXL and Diablo out!

A little background. I know PiXL has taken sets from Cosmos (Nairo Saga), IcyMist (EVO), and SS (Rise) this year. Diablo took a set from Charliedaking (MSM 100) but I don't know much else from there.

 

[|RK|]

So CaptainZack, Chag, and Pink Fresh have all lost to Little Mac now. Thoughts?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So CaptainZack, Chag, and Pink Fresh have all lost to Little Mac now. Thoughts?

That Bayos have trouble with characters that sport an absurd ground game and powershields on smash attacks? I dunno but bayos have been losing to little macs as of late.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Bayo players often have terrible disadvantage states and bad neutrals.
Mac blows them up for it.
Nothing out of the ordinary imo.