Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

Good lord. Happy to see representaion, but eight different characters across two players?! Wow.
Fatality will likely have to fight Kameme at SSC, right? I could see him getting the win with Wario, as it's the only one of those four Fatality doesn't have much experience with (plus he lost to Glutonny, so if he hasn't learned from that it's on him).

It (Fatality vs Glutonny) was a close set, and Kameme doesn't have anywhere near the level of skill (with Wario) that Gluto has to take stocks early. I doubt it'd work if he tried.

Here's everyone who used four characters and how they used them (I didn't catch most of the tournament but from what I did see + what I've been told:

MKLeo
: Used vs Mr. R (Won 7, lost 4) at least, probably more
Used vs Javi (Won at least once)
used vs Kub_4444 (Won 1-3 times) and Javi (Won at least once)
used vs a Cloud main who's name I can't remember in pools (Won twice)

Kameme
Used vs Serge :4lucario (Won twice):, Chaplin (Won three, lost one to the Samus), Captain Levi (Lost twice), Richi (Won two, lost one), and Salva (Won three?)
Used vs Richi (Won once) and Serge (Won once)
used vs Captain Levi (Won once, lost once)
used vs NAKAT ? (Won at least once)

NAKAT
used vs Bedgar (Won three) at least, might've used him vs Kameme but since it's his main he probably used him vs more people?
used vs Chag (Won three, lost one), Regi (Lost once) and Rox (Won three, lost one)
used vs Regi (Won twice)
used vs Regi (Won once), heard a rumour about him using DK vs Kameme but can't confirm


Sorry it's incomplete but here you go.

 

[Rizen]

Can't jab>upB?

This brings up a good topic: what kill confirms does your character have?

can:
Dthrow>uair, Bair1>land>turn around upB/Utilt, jab2>upB, Bomb Fthrow>Fair, bomb Dthrow from above>F/Uair, Nair>arrow lock>Fsmash/DA, Zair1>smash/upB. Dtilt>Fair might kill at the ledge. Utilt is frame 8 and kills around 120% and Uthrow stock cap kills at 160%-180%+. (did I miss any?)

 

[Lord Dio]

It (Fatality vs Glutonny) was a close set, and Kameme doesn't have anywhere near the level of skill (with Wario) that Gluto has to take stocks early. I doubt it'd work if he tried.

Here's everyone who used four characters and how they used them (I didn't catch most of the tournament but from what I did see + what I've been told:

MKLeo
: Used vs Mr. R (Won 7, lost 4) at least, probably more
Used vs Javi (Won at least once)
used vs Kub_4444 (Won 1-3 times) and Javi (Won at least once)
used vs a Cloud main who's name I can't remember in pools (Won twice)

Kameme
Used vs Serge :4lucario (Won twice):, Chaplin (Won three, lost one to the Samus), Captain Levi (Lost twice), Richi (Won two, lost one), and Salva (Won three?)
Used vs Richi (Won once) and Serge (Won once)
used vs Captain Levi (Won once, lost once)
used vs NAKAT ? (Won at least once)

NAKAT
used vs Bedgar (Won three) at least, might've used him vs Kameme but since it's his main he probably used him vs more people?
used vs Chag (Won three, lost one), Regi (Lost once) and Rox (Won three, lost one)
used vs Regi (Won twice)
used vs Regi (Won once), heard a rumour about him using DK vs Kameme but can't confirm


Sorry it's incomplete but here you go.

Even more diversity.
So eleven characters across 3 people. That's incredibly impressive.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Can't jab>upB?

This brings up a good topic: what kill confirms does your character have?

can:
Dthrow>uair, Bair1>land>turn around upB/Utilt, jab2>upB, Bomb Fthrow>Fair, bomb Dthrow from above>F/Uair, Nair>arrow lock>Fsmash/DA, Zair1>smash/upB. Dtilt>Fair might kill at the ledge. Utilt is frame 8 and kills around 120% and Uthrow stock cap kills at 160%-180%+. (did I miss any?)

Jab to up B isn't true. It relies on people not knowing its a thing.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Zard can't true combo into any of his jabs, the only way to pull off a jab-cancel combo is if the opponent deliberately fell since they can recover before the FAF of zard's jabs, it's best just to finish the jab combo.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo made a Diddy matchup chart:

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/894442882857349120
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/894446725846507520

General points:

- I love that he wrote out details on the matchup instead of arbitrary numbers
- is a counter.
- Definitively loses to
- seem to be slightly losing?
- also seem to be slightly losing with the potential to get worse
- seem to be "Winning but Volatile"
- the rest is pretty self-explanatory

Overall extremely agreeable and an excellent reference for Diddy's matchups.

Also, if she wasn't so hard to play well I feel like we'd see a lot more secondaries (or mains), since her matchups are actually insane:

- Considered to be the only character in the game with a clear advantage vs
- Counters , having the best matchup in the game vs all three of these
- Demolishes
- Can beat but that require a lot of investment and a specific playstyle, still a harder matchup for bayo if you know what you're doing (although only Dabuz might have the skill to pull it off?)
- Loses to MK (but nowhere near as bad as people say), Cloud (which is getting better for her) and nobody else, all of which can be covered by your main or just beaten with Rosa.

Rosalina's matchups are unique in the sense that she doesn't stomp some of the low tiers as hard as the other top tiers, but exchanges it for having a lot of +2s and even some +3s with more relevant high tier characters.

 

[Konneh]

I don't like the fact that he didn't specify any details as to why he thinks Rosalina wins that match up so hard, because I disagree entirely and I would like to learn from his perspective.
Most notable Rosalinas have listed the matchup anywhere between slight advantage and slight disadvantage, while Dabuz seems to think it's even.
Diddy needs to adapt his playstyle and play around the possibility (and endlag) of gravitational pull, but I've seen it work plenty of times.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Nothing to do with Grav Pull. Diddy has no reliable approaches and no strong ways to get rid of Luma without taking massive risk. The only time Grav Pull matters to the Diddy is when he's trying to fullhop banana over Luma. It's probably his worst matchup.

 

[Illuminose]

i do agree that kinda bodies diddy. it's hard for diddy to get rid of luma efficiently without committing to risky monkey flips or smash attacks other than racking up a lot of damage and stringing her off the side. he also gets severely outrewarded because rosa's advantage state can be outright oppressive for diddy to deal with, including devastating juggles, good ledge trapping, and highly efficient/consistent edgeguarding tools. furthermore, luma adds hitlag and makes it really easy for rosa to punish fair, in addition to preventing banana from being a serious threat to her on the ground. her ability to use luma for boxing means that she can engage diddy head-on without risking down tilt. neutral is difficult for diddy, but this matchup becomes doable because diddy can abuse rosa's questionable disadvantage state, making a decent amount out of stage control and ledge trapping. once he does get rid of luma, it can be hard for rosa to regain stage and even allow diddy to get kills pretty early because rosa is so light.

 

[The-Technique]

Ignore this

 

[NotLiquid]

ZeRo's matchup chart had me thinking; where's this guy at in the meta right now? He's currently 26th on the tier list, and within that range he strikes me as the most lopsided character of the bunch. Pre-patch shenanigans at one point propelled the idea that he was Top 10 material with a more braindead game plan than hoo-ha/ding dong flowcharts, and despite a good deal of his results bottoming out after the nerfs he's still a baffling character in more ways than one. He's speculated to have good matchups against Bayo and Diddy, the two best characters in the game, but is inversely thought to have a bad matchup against Rosa (and I think Cloud?), arguably the best after that.

Does this character have room to grow? With Mario being back on a downturn, I'm curious about this can of worms.

 

[The-Technique]

ZeRo's matchup chart had me thinking; where's this guy at in the meta right now? He's currently 26th on the tier list, and within that range he strikes me as the most lopsided character of the bunch. Pre-patch shenanigans at one point propelled the idea that he was Top 10 material with a more braindead game plan than hoo-ha/ding dong flowcharts, and despite a good deal of his results bottoming out he's still a baffling character in more ways than one. He's speculated to have good matchups against Bayo and Diddy, the two best characters in the game, but is inversely thought to have a bad matchup against Rosa (and I think Cloud?), arguably the best after that.

Does this character have room to grow? With Mario being back on a downturn, I'm curious about this can of worms.

The cloud matchup is very interesting for Luigi. Despite everything on paper being horrendous for Luigi, like how he's a floaty character with horrid traction and shield pushback, Elegant manages to win sets against top Clouds like Komorikiri, or failing that he's able to keep things very close. People rave about how explosive Mario's punish game is, but Luigi somehow gets less attention despite having far more potent combos on top of having a frame 8 kill move that kills at around 50-70%, and in general having more options to close out stocks with.

 

[Nobie]

Do you know where I could find this? We've brought this up before, and I'd like to see what the results.

I've been trying to find it but I just cant. I recall it was posted to Reddit though.

Also, re: Mewtwo vs. Diddy, ZeRo agrees that Wadi plays the matchup right.

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/894447111806353408

 

[blackghost]

Actual discussion on the Bayo matchup, thank you. Could you help me clarify a few things? I don't think I'll get the chance to analyze this for a while now.

For Tweek's ability to land punishes: how is he setting up punish opportunities, both with spacing and moves? Are punishes more dependant on the openings the Bayo player leaves or the ones their opponent creates? What traits make a character good at finding punish opportunities?

SDI: It's my understanding that a good Bayo can punish no matter how you SDI, but mixing up yor options can free you from the combo. Do any Bayo players claim they can react to SDI as opposed to guessing options?

ESAM and pressure: Was it a viable option for ESAM's opponents to wait and allow Pika to approach? What traits allow characters to remain patient and wait for the Bayo to commit to an approach before engaging them?

I'll go through the matches as soon as I can to give specifics but in general a few things remain consistent.
The only bayo that gives tweek problems is Salem. This is important becuase only salem consistently plays a strong neutral game and doesn't overextend. Tweek is punishing because he rapidly processes and tracks bayo's specials and movement. The matches vs lima it is a lot easier to see. Besides sdi knowledge, di knowledge, and good approaches tweek counts her specials. When lima does multiple specials and tweek sdi out or escapes, he applied pressure be getting beneath bayo. If bayo has used two or more specials a d the opponent is beneath her she has two options:land with witch time or try to get to the ledge. But the thing is she cannot always get to the ledge and knowing that is the key. If she whiffs abk in her combo string she will have a hard time getting there. When she is forced to land with witch time her opponent has to wait for her to hit the ground. When you see her landing recovery frames charge a smash or get a good punish.

I will also say this most bayo's play more like lima than Salem. I don't mean in terms of aggressiveness or combo game. I mean in extensions. Bayo players know what they do has recovery on the landings a d they know that when an opponent gets out They are in a bad place but people are scared to punish her so bayo players play like they cant or won't be punished. It is very rare to see her properly punished that bayo players overextend by habit even when it's a plot decision. That is why when characters with one move punishes are matched agoasnt her bayo players will often freeze up or die for their over extensions. You see this when Zack fights mac and on older sets vs Luigi.

I'll try to go through tweek set and the others tonight. I also suggest you watch a breakdown from either ninjalink or Dabuz. Ninjalink is brutally honest about many players habits and Dabuz just has a wealth of knowledge.

 

[Bigbomb2]

can:
Dthrow>uair, Bair1>land>turn around upB/Utilt, jab2>upB, Bomb Fthrow>Fair, bomb Dthrow from above>F/Uair, Nair>arrow lock>Fsmash/DA, Zair1>smash/upB. Dtilt>Fair might kill at the ledge. Utilt is frame 8 and kills around 120% and Uthrow stock cap kills at 160%-180%+. (did I miss any?)

I think there's some more but those would be more character specific/situational. A lot of kills also come from frame traps with forcing them to airdodge

 

[Galaxeon]

Mewtwo is actually relatively unaffected by losing a top player. Someone did a chart a while bag showing what happens when a character loses their best player, and Mewtwo went from consistent top 8 to... Consistent top 8.

It only means something if every character loses its top player though. So this will still affect Mewtwo's results somehow, not to mention they seem to get a little worse as of late.

But who knows whether Aba dropped Mewtwo completly or not.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Pretty sure he's co-maining Mewtwo and Bayonetta now

 

[420quickscoper]

Pretty sure he's co-maining Mewtwo and Bayonetta now

That doesn't seem like it's true anymore. At EVO, he used more Bayonetta than Mewtwo and so did he at LTC5. After the loss to CaptainZack the Mewtwo seems kind of rusty and unreliable bar some MUs (like Luigi).

 

[Rizen]

ZeRo made a Diddy matchup chart:

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/894442882857349120
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/894446725846507520

General points:

- I love that he wrote out details on the matchup instead of arbitrary numbers
- is a counter.
.

Zero never Rosa was a counter but that she was Diddy's worst MU. Rosa counters characters like Ganon, not Diddy. It's just a disadvantage.


I think is being overrated a little. You have to remember she's ranked 55th in weight, lighter than Kirby, with a large hurtbox and no hit bubbles on her upB. That makes her extremely vulnerable to combos and aerial juggles. She loses hard to characters like MK and ZSS (I think?). She's also easy for defensive characters like Villager to wall out. She has tools to outplay opponents but when she doesn't she's brittle. Rosa has really good things going for her but is not without weaknesses. 5th or 6th best imo.

 

[Iron Kraken]

ZeRo made a Diddy matchup chart:Rosalina's matchups are unique in the sense that she doesn't stomp some of the low tiers as hard as the other top tiers.

You're going to have to tell me which low tier characters to which you're referring because I'm pretty sure that Rosa stomps the lesser characters as well as anyone.

 

[TDK]

Zero never Rosa was a counter but that she was Diddy's worst MU. Rosa counters characters like Ganon, not Diddy. It's just a disadvantage.

I consider Rosa vs Characters like Ganon a hard counter, not just a counter. That being said, ZeRo did say "It's better just going a secondary" which to me constitutes a counter.

You're going to have to tell me which low tier characters to which you're referring because I'm pretty sure that Rosa stomps the lesser characters as well as anyone.

and from the bottom tiers, and depending on how low we're talking add are all a lot closer than you think. Rosa still beats them all but it's not the crazy insane matchups that someone like Bayo has vs the low/bottom tiers.

 

[Locke 06]

I'll go through the matches as soon as I can to give specifics but in general a few things remain consistent.
The only bayo that gives tweek problems is Salem. This is important becuase only salem consistently plays a strong neutral game and doesn't overextend. Tweek is punishing because he rapidly processes and tracks bayo's specials and movement. The matches vs lima it is a lot easier to see. Besides sdi knowledge, di knowledge, and good approaches tweek counts her specials. When lima does multiple specials and tweek sdi out or escapes, he applied pressure be getting beneath bayo. If bayo has used two or more specials a d the opponent is beneath her she has two options:land with witch time or try to get to the ledge. But the thing is she cannot always get to the ledge and knowing that is the key. If she whiffs abk in her combo string she will have a hard time getting there. When she is forced to land with witch time her opponent has to wait for her to hit the ground. When you see her landing recovery frames charge a smash or get a good punish.

Up-B side-B has 26f landing lag and makes BAir -10 on shield drop. You run up shield to anticipate the BAir, and you see she doesn't BAir. You've wasted somewhere between 7 and 15f of your punish because you shield>drop shield.

Now, will you try your f12-15 fsmash?

Spoiler

Turns out, the time it takes to recognize the no BAir landing and make the decision of fsmashing cost you 12 frames before you dropped shield. 12+7f shield drop + 12f fsmash. 31 frames? Oh no! You got witch timed.

Maybe you should learn the matchup, they say. These windows are there. You just have to punish them with that "good punish."

Edit: adjusted for a real person's reaction time.

 

[|RK|]

Usmash OOS? Use a disjoint? Projectile? Wouldn't all of those work?

 

[Kaze Arashi]

Low tier 5 results were whack

I'm not talking about Zero getting second. I was expecting Zero in Grand Finals. LOL it's against Cloud, who is good against Diddy, and Zero vs Esam was hype.

What I didn't like were who was in top 8. Aside from Tweek, Zero, Esam and Larry Lurr, there were four Bayonettas. FOUR. That's CRAZY. Yea there were alot of good players but why are so many of them BAYONETTA? She's an annoyance and all but this is ridiculous.

Results here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Low_Tier_City_5

 

[Kofu]

Up-B side-B has 26f landing lag and makes BAir -10 on shield drop. You run up shield to anticipate the BAir, and you see she doesn't BAir. You've wasted somewhere between 7 and 15f of your punish because you shield>drop shield.

Now, will you try your f12-15 fsmash?

Spoiler

Turns out, the time it takes to recognize the no BAir landing and make the decision of fsmashing cost you 12 frames before you dropped shield. 12+7f shield drop + 12f fsmash. 31 frames? Oh no! You got witch timed.

Maybe you should learn the matchup, they say. These windows are there. You just have to punish them with that "good punish."

Edit: adjusted for a real person's reaction time.

I've actually been curious about the numbers for Bayo's landing lag after using differing amounts of aerial specials. How much does it increase?

 

[Nah]

I've actually been curious about the numbers for Bayo's landing lag after using differing amounts of aerial specials. How much does it increase?

It's listed on her kurogamehammer page actually, at the very bottom.

Apparently the lowest is 19 frames (a single Witch Twist), max is 43 frames when alternating between Witch Twist and ABK (using each twice)

 

[HoSmash4]

There were 4 Bayonettas because they were seeded to be in top 8.
Lets not forget they collectively they had a 1-7 record in top 8 (Only win being the Bayonetta ditto between Captain Zack and Mistake)

Bayonetta is beatable. She is simply the best character, if not the top tier with the highest amount of good players.

 

[TDK]

What I didn't like were who was in top 8. Aside from Tweek, Zero, Esam and Larry Lurr, there were four Bayonettas. FOUR. That's CRAZY. Yea there were alot of good players but why are so many of them BAYONETTA? She's an annoyance and all but this is ridiculous.

How long are we going to have to deal with stuff like this?

 

[Kaze Arashi]

How long are we going to have to deal with stuff like this?

IDK but it'll be a long time. I don't blame it tho. Most of the time Bayonetta just dominates.

 

[FeelMeUp]

IDK but it'll be a long time. I don't blame it tho. Most of the time Bayonetta just dominates.

Your posts do not belong here.

 

[Nu~]

Find it weird that ZeRo didn't include diddy when he said that Bayo and Cloud are the 2 chars with the most room to develop.

Think he's underrating diddy's potential here. Not long ago did he say that diddy kong's weakness is his weak combo game but...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ADHD has been behind the scenes cooking up some nasty stuff.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Diddy's growth hit a plateau because ZeRo is the only one at the top level carrying his meta.
No other Diddy sets up traps as well as he does. He hasn't really implemented stuff from other Diddys. Other Diddys haven't really implemented his tactics.
I said it a while before, but Diddy still has many underused tools and only time will tell if the character actually grows or we'll settle with ZeRo's opinions and call the character done.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Oh look, another post about

Furiating character design aside, am I wrong for saying the way Bayonetta has elevated many of the players who picked her up is kind of unprecedented? I believe the matter deserves some attention.

Salem is probably the worst example of this simply because he was a great Brawl player and is obviously very talented in Smash 4 with a variety of characters. Nonetheless, he wasn't getting any notable Smash 4 results until he picked up Bayo.

Captain Zack was a very talented Peach main before he picked up Bayo, but his results weren't much to speak of. I had a few sessions against his Peach back in 2015 myself, and we went back and forth. I never imagined he would soon be a top 10 player.

I had never heard of Mistake, Lima, and JK before they picked up Bayo. That's not to say they weren't good players, so someone fill in the details if you can - but I can say with confidence these Bayos mains have ascended the ladder at an unusual pace.

But new players always emerge, you might say...

Yet this kind of meteoric ascendancy in the middle of Smash 4's life cycle just doesn't seem to happen with the other 57 characters in nearly the same way.

Take , for example. The best Cloud mains are Komorikiri and Tweek. Komo was already one of the best players in Smash 4 as a main. Tweek certainly wasn't on the level he is now as a main, but I would argue that he got freakishly good results for using such a trash-tier character, and very obviously was destined to become one of the better Smash 4 players if he picked up just about any decent character.

I'm not saying Bayo players are the only ones who have emerged from the depths of nowhere well into the game's life cycle. Another player I used to grind against on WiFi, DarkShadTheLegend (a.k.a. DarkShad) rose tremendously after dropping for . Few people knew about Elegant this time last year and now but he singlehandedly made relevant again and is widely regarded as one of the better Smash 4 players.

So, I'm not saying this doesn't happen at all with the other 57 characters.

But with Bayo, it's on a completely different level.

Bayo is the performance enhancing drug of Smash 4.

What does this mean? I think we're going to get more and more Smash 4 players who are tired of their middling results and devote themselves to learning Bayo, and that the meta will continue to centralize around her more and more. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[OverTime]

Low tier 5 results were whack

I'm not talking about Zero getting second. I was expecting Zero in Grand Finals. LOL it's against Cloud, who is good against Diddy, and Zero vs Esam was hype.

What I didn't like were who was in top 8. Aside from Tweek, Zero, Esam and Larry Lurr, there were four Bayonettas. FOUR. That's CRAZY. Yea there were alot of good players but why are so many of them BAYONETTA? She's an annoyance and all but this is ridiculous.

Results here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Low_Tier_City_5

Welcome to the:
Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Complain, Whine and Cry Foul

I think K9 said it best when he stated that it's not Bayo causing problems, its uncompetitive people masquerading as competitive players that cause the problem. (Paraphrased)

Yes, good players playing the best character will do very well. I realize this may be shocking news.

I say this pretty loosely. If you're not a community figurehead or you find something truly gamebreaking, stay quiet and figure out how to deal with it, because your opinion realistically does not matter.

 

[R3D3MON]

ZeRo's matchup chart had me thinking; where's this guy at in the meta right now? He's currently 26th on the tier list, and within that range he strikes me as the most lopsided character of the bunch. Pre-patch shenanigans at one point propelled the idea that he was Top 10 material with a more braindead game plan than hoo-ha/ding dong flowcharts, and despite a good deal of his results bottoming out after the nerfs he's still a baffling character in more ways than one. He's speculated to have good matchups against Bayo and Diddy, the two best characters in the game, but is inversely thought to have a bad matchup against Rosa (and I think Cloud?), arguably the best after that.

Does this character have room to grow? With Mario being back on a downturn, I'm curious about this can of worms.

Rosa, Cloud, and especially M2 murder this character. Any character with any form of disjoint and speed can just wall luigi out and deny him from landing. Just watch Elegant's more recent sets with Aba and Komo during nationals (the 2GG sagas are good ones).

I also don't know why Luigi has a favorable matchup against Bayo and Diddy. Can someone explain this to me? Diddy to me in particular seems like he would shutdown Luigi HARD in neutral and win the game from his kill confirms, while Luigi has to essentially fish for edgeguards, up smash, or back throw.

Stop overrating this character please, lopsided MUs mean Luigi cannot do well at high-top level gameplay realistically. This is evidenced by the fact that Elegant is the only one carrying Luigi at the highest level.

Spoiler

Oh look, another post about

Furiating character design aside, am I wrong for saying the way Bayonetta has elevated many of the players who picked her up is kind of unprecedented? I believe the matter deserves some attention.

Salem is probably the worst example of this simply because he was a great Brawl player and is obviously very talented in Smash 4 with a variety of characters. Nonetheless, he wasn't getting any notable Smash 4 results until he picked up Bayo.

Captain Zack was a very talented Peach main before he picked up Bayo, but his results weren't much to speak of. I had a few sessions against his Peach back in 2015 myself, and we went back and forth. I never imagined he would soon be a top 10 player.

I had never heard of Mistake, Lima, and JK before they picked up Bayo. That's not to say they weren't good players, so someone fill in the details if you can - but I can say with confidence these Bayos mains have ascended the ladder at an unusual pace.

But new players always emerge, you might say...

Yet this kind of meteoric ascendancy in the middle of Smash 4's life cycle just doesn't seem to happen with the other 57 characters in nearly the same way.

Take , for example. The best Cloud mains are Komorikiri and Tweek. Komo was already one of the best players in Smash 4 as a main. Tweek certainly wasn't on the level he is now as a main, but I would argue that he got freakishly good results for using such a trash-tier character, and very obviously was destined to become one of the better Smash 4 players if he picked up just about any decent character.

I'm not saying Bayo players are the only ones who have emerged from the depths of nowhere well into the game's life cycle. Another player I used to grind against on WiFi, DarkShadTheLegend (a.k.a. DarkShad) rose tremendously after dropping for . Few people knew about Elegant this time last year and now but he singlehandedly made relevant again and is widely regarded as one of the better Smash 4 players.

So, I'm not saying this doesn't happen at all with the other 57 characters.

But with Bayo, it's on a completely different level.

Bayo is the performance enhancing drug of Smash 4.

What does this mean? I think we're going to get more and more Smash 4 players who are tired of their middling results and devote themselves to learning Bayo, and that the meta will continue to centralize around her more and more. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Have you ever played melee or brawl? If bayo gets centralized then CP will develop sooner or later. If it doesn't then it means the S4 community lacks competitive merit.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Have you ever played melee or brawl? If bayo gets centralized then CP will develop sooner or later. If it doesn't then it means the S4 community lacks competitive merit.

I'm not quite sure what your point is. No doubt that any character that becomes centralizing will be subject to a vast amount of counterplay development. And while that does help keep any given character in check to a certain extent, it just speaks to the dominance of the character in the first place. I am sure that no character was the subject of more CP than Meta Knight, but it sure as heck didn't stop him (not saying Bayo = Smash 4 MK, but you get my point).

And at the same time, the Bayos are just going to keep getting better and better. That's what I've always said about this character. There's so much potential in her move set that it's inevitable that the Bayo meta will just continue to grow deadlier over time.

I don't think Bayo is beatable and I don't think she's ban-worthy, but I do think she's going to dominate the game more and more over time (if left unchecked by Nintendo).

 

[R3D3MON]

I don't think Bayo is beatable and I don't think she's ban-worthy, but I do think she's going to dominate the game more and more over time (if left unchecked by Nintendo).

Is that a problem? If people drop characters with less viability than bayo for competition sake, they have the mentality of a winner and that's a good thing. Since character fanatics and biases seem to be especially present in this community, someone will have the desire to further a lower tier character's meta, regardless of Bayo's impact on the meta (in fact Bayo might be a fuel for those wanting to further a different character's meta).

 

[Dream Cancel]

-snip-

Stop overrating this character please, lopsided MUs mean Luigi cannot do well at high-top level gameplay realistically. This is evidenced by the fact that Elegant is the only one carrying Luigi at the highest level.

I'm not a Luigi specialist nor do I know much about Luigi's MUs, but;

If someone on Elegant's level played Luigi, would they get the same kind of results? In my opinion, they would. Results do not mean everything. Just because people stop playing the character or there's only one standout player does not mean the character sucks or is overrated. That just means they're really damn good at this game and we should be closely observing how they traverse seemingly hard MUs.

 

[Nobie]

Do you know where I could find this? We've brought this up before, and I'd like to see what the results.

Managed to find it after all: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6iqhzf/with_pgrv3_ending_this_is_what_a_highest/

 

[Lord Dio]

Managed to find it after all: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6iqhzf/with_pgrv3_ending_this_is_what_a_highest/

Here's the link to the tier list: https://twitter.com/Team_DRX/status/877701360531030018
Note that there are some errors due to highes/most placements, such as Iota as Wario's best instead of Glutonny, andomo for sonic instead of KEN.