Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[FeelMeUp]

The amount of people that even bother comparing ladders to 's shows that none of you have any idea how ZSS works.
Her ladders are insanely specific(outside of raw uair) against most of the cast and give the opponent plenty of room for counterplay.

Not Bayonetta-like counterplay where you can get out and MAYBE punish after taking 40, but ACTUAL hard counterplay where you can get out after eating 20% and potentially just kill her for it.

Play the character yourself and you'll come to appreciate just how impressive it is that Nairo can land grabs AT ALL against players like ZeRo and Mr. R. I've been using her to potentially replace Diddy and come to wonder how the hell Nairo makes things work against top level reps of half the top tiers.

 

[BunbUn129]

If anyone ever complains about Bayonetta being dishonest but loves ZSS and her combos etc then you need to sit down in a cold dark room and have a stern word with yourself.

Very strange how Bayonetta laddering you and killing you off of a read at 20% is dumb and stupid (which I will note has been happening less and less these days as top players adapt), but ZSS doing the same thing is great and hype (which I'll also note still happens, because, shock, this is actually harder to adapt to once she's got you)...

On the topic of ladder combos and such, I honestly feel that if more players used Meta Knight and showcased him more, he could easily be top tier. There's not much of a difference in the comeback factor of ZSS and Meta Knight. Are there any outright problem MU's he has with the top tiers? I can't see any. That and him having a notable MU vs Rosalina only boosts his strengths.



Also, 10 different top 64 players used at some point (6 in top 32).

Just 6 's (2 in top 32).


Oh dear, Bayonetta is totally taking over the meta right guys? Let's just leave it a few months before we ban her, k?

Meta Knight's overall reward is much more inconsistent. His combo moves generally send at worse angles, except for sourspot dash attack, but that starter is easily punishable and can lose him games in the same manner that a whiffed grab from ZSS will. Up tilt sends at a really good angle for combos, but the move is unwieldy; the grounded hitbox is weaker but much harder to hit, and again it's easy to punish, and while the tipper is easier to land and beats out a lot of landing options, it's harder to follow-up.

ZSS's grab requires a lot more work to land than an MK dash attack, but in the end down throw's consistent angle and lower overall scaling give her more varied follow-ups at most percents. Even if you DI properly, she has faster mobility and a higher initial jump, so in general, combined with more favorable hitboxes and durations on her aerials (especially up air), not only does ZSS have better true combos, she can chase you down and extend them into juggles more effectively. Furthermore her damage-per-hit is somewhat better and combined with the previous points, she can make better trades even if it's still not ideal for her.

There are other things that make ZSS a noticeably better character than Meta Knight, like amazing landing aerials that can be covered with a fast jab or lead into a grab/aerials/down b, a projectile, more varied KO methods (d smash set-ups, ladder stuff, bair, nair -> down b, etc,), and an even better disadvantage state, so I don't think you can replicate ZSS's success with MK by focusing on his ladders. But there are two very important areas where MK wins out: better burst and stronger options on the ground.

Oh, and, this might be obvious, but Cloud does well vs Rosalina and he requires much less maintenance as a secondary. MK may go +2 on Rosalina but you still need to put in a certain level of effort to understand your secondary for the CP to work. Rosalina mains have seemingly figured out this MU (at least partially) for a while, too, making it even less worthwhile.

I do think MK's current results don't match his actual theory, but I have hope in the "new generation" of Meta Knights, as I like to call them, being Urameshi and DSS (Tyrant, Leo, Abadango, and Ito being the "old generation").

 

[TurboLink]

The amount of people that even bother comparing ladders to 's shows that none of you have any idea how ZSS works.
Her ladders are often insanely specific(outside of raw uair) against most of the cast and give the opponent plenty of room for counterplay.

Not Bayonetta-like counterplay where you can get out and MAYBE punish after taking 40, but ACTUAL hard counterplay where you can get out after eating 20% and potentially just kill her for it.

Play the character yourself and you'll come to appreciate just how impressive it is that Nairo can land grabs AT ALL against players like ZeRo and Mr. R. I've been using her to potentially replace Diddy and come to wonder how the hell Nairo makes things work against top level reps of half the top tiers.

Having non ****ty run speed does wonders for a character with a tether grab. Makes you that much harder to react to in midrange and your tether grab having more active frames doesn't hurt either.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Can we talk about ? On paper, he seems like a candidate for the worst in the game, but Sinji made a deep run with the character at Smashcon and Zage also got 49th. Is Pac better than we think or was it matchup inexperience on the part of their opponents?

I said it months ago, but it still stands that I cannot watch a Pac-man set where it doesn't look like the opponent could've avoided anything Pac-man hit them with. Fruit tricks, Hydrant shenanigans, Trampoline setups, everything looks gimmicky and avoidable.
Sinji and Tea had good placements, but at the same timeFatality made Pac-man look bad last time I saw him playing against one.




RE: Bayo. While I'll try not to comment much on the matter due to my obvious bias, there is not "potential death everytime you get hit by WTw". It's only truly dangerous if she gets you pretty high in the air or a platform. Otherwise dying to it is almost entirely your fault.

As an unpopular opinion I have, I think every single Sm4sh player should pick Bayonetta. Not main her, or even use her seriously at all, but at least to understand why do her combos fail and what they themselves can do to avoid them. I mean, the reason Bayo players preach that DI is your savior is not because we don't want to recognize the character is crazy good, but because it does make a Bayo's win condition significantly more difficult to achieve.
Her results are great and all but we still do see players taking poor DI decisions (and I'm internally screaming "please do DI up everytime against me too!")

I wanted to make a Youtube channel dedicated to analyze Bayo's combos in top level sets (not even reads like Dabuz does, ONLY focused on combos and why they worked/missed), but I don't have the equipment to do so.


RE: ZSS. ESAM's video pointed out that Boost Kick is, DI-wise, a 50/50, ZSS has to read whether direction you take to correctly connect it. It also explained that the correct angle for the last hit is Diagonal Down and AWAY. People should NOT be dying off the top from that one hit (but they can get carried by the others and can do pretty much nothing about it).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Having non ****ty run speed does wonders for a character with a tether grab. Makes you that much harder to react to in midrange and your tether grab having more active frames doesn't hurt either.

The runspeed and burst grab strengths were heavily nerfed when they altered it to allow you to both roll through and spotdodge.
Now the punishes for her grab whiffing are pretty severe. If your grab gets spotdodged the opponent can do whatever they want and most likely kill you or do 30% minimum almost regardless of the character.

 

[Fenny]

Looks like Salem's gonna pick up Greninja as a serious secondary

Yeah it's greninja, gonna start playing him and gonna have a legit secondary for once, I gotta stop being addicted to bayonetta. 🦋

— Salem (@SalemBane_) August 14, 2017

Rejoice frog mains

 

[Aaron1997]

I said it months ago, but it still stands that I cannot watch a Pac-man set where it doesn't look like the opponent could've avoided anything Pac-man hit them with. Fruit tricks, Hydrant shenanigans, Trampoline setups, everything looks gimmicky and avoidable.
Sinji and Tea had good placements, but at the same timeFatality made Pac-man look bad last time I saw him playing against one.

Yet Sinji almost went to game 5 and probably would of beaten Fatailty if he didn't throw out a unsafe grab at a time he had no reason to.

There will never be a point in time where people can avoid all his stuff no matter what. Pac Abuses the fact that no human is perfect and can't dodge everything forever. There's been people like John#, Dekillsage, Angle Cortez that have been playing vs Sinji FOR YEARS and they still can't dodge everything despite knowing every trick in the book.

I feel Pac's need to start using some of their set-up's to condition opponents/Pressure instead of always going for the damage. You'll be surprised at the Dodging and shielding Habits. (Shielding if very effective vs Pac but shielding to much at certain times should be 100% be a free grab or Shield break opportunity) It could lead to early Killing opportunity's/ edgeguards.

 

[The-Technique]

ZSS's combos are locked behind a frame 16 grab, wheres Bayonetta's combos are locked behind a frame 4 special move with stupidly large hitboxes.

Stop trying to say they are the same.

Why do people act like ZSS has to reach for a raw grab every time she wants to start a combo? If you actually observe matches with ZSS, Nairo confirms grabs with either n-air, z-air, or jab 1. ZSS also confirms combos and KOs with d-smash, n-air, and raw u-air. Like did everyone forget d-smash at ledge into down B spike that she's had since forever?

 

[ARGHETH]

Why do people act like ZSS has to reach for a raw grab every time she wants to start a combo? If you actually observe matches with ZSS, Nairo confirms grabs with either n-air, z-air, or jab 1. ZSS also confirms combos and KOs with d-smash, n-air, and raw u-air. Like did everyone forget d-smash at ledge into down B spike that she's had since forever?

Nairo confirms with Nair/etc a lot, but also goes for a lot of raw grabs, which gets him killed as much as it gets a good reward.

I'm actually not entirely sure I saw any dsmash->downB at the ledge at all during his set during Zero, and I'm pretty sure it was only done a few times in his losers run. He usually just went for Fsmash.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I like you, but I don't want people to get caught up and not think about how situational a lot of these are.

Why do people act like ZSS has to reach for a raw grab every time she wants to start a combo? If you actually observe matches with ZSS, Nairo confirms grabs with either n-air

~40 frame commitment that is easily powershielded or reacted to with a fast aerial

z-air

Only works if you get caught by the fullhop Uair after her Zair connects with an airborne opponent. Meaning she read your unnecessary jump with a raw Uair and killed you for it. If you watch Nairo's sets, he'll always fish for dash grab or fullhop Uair after connecting a zair because she doesn't get heavily rewarded off the hit itself.

jab 1

Semi-fraudulent mixup. People get caught by jab 1 and tap shield then proceed to get grabbed because they have hard airdodge landing lag or are sitting in shield not reacting to the grab animation itself. If ZSS throws a jab at you don't even bother pressing shield at all. Use a fast grounded option(sub f6 sounds good) or aerial(at higher %s) and she'll either get hit for delaying jab 2 or hit you before you can do anything.

ZSS also confirms combos and KOs with d-smash

A frame 20 move on a character that doesn't have good enough grounded options to make it relatively safe. It's -7 on shield drop so you CAN punish it.

raw u-air.

Can be pretty silly but the hitbox horizontally is garbo and only tall characters(Sheik, Falcon, Rosa, etc) need to worry about it for the most part. it's generally a non-issue while you're playing a grounded neutral but if you're obsessively fullhopping and going platform to platform....well, yeah, it'll kill you in an extremely generous % window

did everyone forget d-smash at ledge into down B spike that she's had since forever?

Why neutral getup when she has enough trouble covering aerials off ledge, ledge jump, and ledge roll? There's no real reason to. Spaced dsmash generally only covers getup attack and normal getup so just don't choose those options and you'll never get hit unless she hard reads a roll.

Also feel the need to mention that ZSS is even worse at killing than Bayo and Mario once the opponent passes that tiny % window where Dthrow>Fresh Uair works and actually kills. Her only options are utilt(around 135-140ish no rage) and back air. She functionally has no grab after you pass setup percent and nair will always fail to lead to something.
Dsmash works, but I dunno what you're doing to get hit by a f20 dsmash in neutral at 130.

 

[williamsga555]

So I am not sure if this was brought up. B8t it seems Bowser can do pretty well vs Cloud. I am not saying Bowser wins the MU by any means and Cloud has lots of advantages . But the Koopa King has tools to hold his own in the MU

For one Bowers fire breath or his intangability of his d-tilt at ledge will almost always drove Cloud to recover high or burn his limit if he has it

Bower has enough reach to deal with Clouds massive disjointes and of course his grab kill-confirm

I agree.

I've briefly touched on it before, but Bowser has the tools needed to give Cloud some headaches: a potent ground game with good OOS options, the ability to reliably take stocks earlier than Cloud can, and ledge coverage options that are both deadly and ignore Climhazzard's massive protective hitbox. In the past, too many people saw a big-bodied superheavy and assumed Cloud destroyed them because of how hard they get punished by his juggling and corner pressure (which is still at least somewhat true), without really looking into how things played out (or in other words: "Wow, Cloud's up-air sure is good against the big and the slow, huh? 60-40 minimum.")

Whether or not the general community still looks at this matchup type the same way, I can't say, but Bowser definitely should not be written off against Cloud.

Side note: I would imagine that Charizard likely fares well against Cloud for similar reasons, but honestly, I just don't know enough to give a proper comment on that one. Or in other words, it wouldn't shock me if Zard-Cloud is close to even, but I don't actually have any idea. I feel like DK probably loses more convincingly but can never be counted out because DK is disgustingly lethal in general.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Zard does do well against cloud....in comparison to the other top tiers. It's ridiculously volatile though because Cloud excels at everything that zard is bad at and vice versa.
Zard's flamethrower essentially beats every ground based move Cloud can use plus it applies excellent shield pressure.
Problem is, even though zard can angle the flamethrower up Cloud can just jump out of it. Here's where things get painful. Cloud has better air speed and acceleration than zard does plus he can combo and juggle zard effortlessly unless zard gets the rock smash in making zard rely almost exclusively on flamethrower for landings, making zard easy to read once he gets in that position. Plus cloud can exchange with and beat zard's aerials in the air because the frame data on most of Cloud's aerials is just so much better than zard's.
So how does zard fight cloud? By anchoring himself to the ground and using utilt and usmash which outranges Clouds dair.
Once Cloud gets to a certain percentage zard can use jab to hit cloud off the stage and here's where things get interesting, for all the strengths cloud has on the stage, once he gets off-stage his recovery is actually pretty linear. If he recovers low zard can edgeguard him with flamethrower, this can also cause Cloud to lose limit without regaining it because flamethrower interrupts limit climbhazzard. This can and will result in an early stock loss for cloud.
If Cloud recovers high Zard has all the speed he needs to dash to where cloud is going to land and get in more hits.
TL;DR Cloud beats zard on stage but loses hard to him off stage. The trick to winning with zard is to keep Cloud offstage as much as possible. For Cloud he should avoid going offstage at all costs.

 

[Vyrnx]

Not really competitive analysis, but one of the best things to happen to competitive Smash 4 in 2017 from a spectating viewpoint is the resurgence of the ZeRo Nairo rivalry. With 4 of the last 5 sets going Nairo's way, this is really a true rivalry once again and the most consistently well Nairo has done vs ZeRo since Brawl.


Some other things from this weekend:


-ZeRo came within one hit of winning both of what will be the two largest/arguably most desired Smash 4 tournaments in 2017 (and a combined ~$16,000…). I don’t think anyone can imagine how awful that would feel and it makes it that much worse when people taunt him for being upset in situations where anyone would be upset. Regardless, I feel like ZeRo’s mentality has somehow improved lately.


-ZeRo’s record vs Leo in 2017 extended to 9-0, the worst set record between two top players right now and one of the worst ever.


-Nairo’s kill percents vs Mr. R at SSC were pretty lol:

33%

56%

146%

27%

60%

50%

71% (almost 29%)


If you’re a Sheik main, you need to be banning T&C vs ZSS always because her “rage up b” kills work on Sheik here with zero rage.


-Choco is continuing a trend. Choco’s placements at Japanese majors in 2017:

SGC - 3rd

Sumaboto 15 - 3rd

Umebura JM 2017 - 3rd

Umebura 27 - 3rd

Umebura 28 - 3rd


I can’t believe he’s never come to the U.S. for a tournament.

ぱみゅ small aside:

Boost Kick is only a 50/50 when ZSS connects the move from Hit 1 when the opponent is at the edge of the hitbox. This typically happens when ZSS uses a grounded Boost Kick because from an aerial combo the ZSS will either bypass Hit 1 and connect with Hit 2, or otherwise position Hit 1 so the opponent isn’t at the very edge of the hitbox (like when a ZSS uairs to dj boost kicks). When ZSS connects with the opponent closer into the Hit 1 hitbox, the opponent can DI either way, but instead of immediately escaping from Hit 1 they will have to escape from Hits 2-5, which is why after factoring in hitlag the ZSS can just follow DI (the actual ascent of boost kick on hit is something like 50 frames). With a grounded boost kick and the opponent at the edge of Hit 1, if the opponent DIs away, they will escape Hit 1 before the ZSS can react and will escape, so the ZSS has to read the DI. But if ZSS expects this and boost kicks angled forward and the opponent DIs in, they will escape. But if ZSS expects this and boost kicks angled backwards, she will connect it, making it a 50/50.


Also worth noting that when ZSS has max rage and connects Boost Kick from Hit 1, several characters (based on weight [and hurtbox size?]) can always escape Boost Kick by holding away. This makes Boost Kick OOS virtually unusable with max rage vs these characters because you can’t rely on them failing to DI. But since ZSS’s rage boost kick kills come from initiating the move from below an airborne opponent and bypassing Hit 1, or by intentionally popping opponents out of Hit 1 by connecting from slightly below, that use of the move is unaffected.


If ZSS does an aerial combo and connects beginning on Hit 2 from slightly below the opponent, Boost Kick is inescapable and will end with Hit 8 launching as long as the ZSS doesn’t for whatever reason hold a direction (this is the version of the move that you will see by far the most from Nairo, Marss, etc.). If ZSS connects Hit 2 from too low, the opponent will pop out of the move. This is always the Zero Suit player’s fault and is preventable (it usually means the percentage range for whatever combo the ZSS attempted has passed--this is when you should see the ZSS go for a damaging combo like uair x3 or uair fair instead). And finally if ZSS connects Hit 2 from even farther below this last scenario, the opponent will be launched by the middle hits. This is the position intentionally abused with rage. So when the opponent escapes an aerial Boost Kick, it can almost always be attributed to one of the three: the ZSS connected the move from Hit 1 without positioning Hit 1 properly (there are several more specifics for how to do this), the ZSS connected from Hit 2 without positioning Hit 2 properly (sometimes happens because the ZSS didn’t position the preceding uair properly and angles the Boost Kick to try to compensate), or the opponent is playing either Cloud or Bayo. So unless you have DLC privilege, escaping an aerial boost kick at the percents where moves true combo into it can be attributed to the fault of the ZSS, not some crazy DI from the opponent.


I encourage people to watch Esam’s videos on ZSS, but take some things with a grain of salt. When I went to watch his ZSS deal-with-it stream and he was talking about how you can always avoid the nair flip kick combo by DIing the nair up, I put in chat that you would do a nair uair dj boost kick instead. He tried it, it killed easily, and he just ignored it and moved on.

Or if you think now that ledge roll is a good option vs ZSS, watch Nairo vs VoiD from this weekend.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

You know It might just be ZSS is still really good or something. Maybe ZeRo had a point when he put her as #6 in his own personal tier list. Personally I think she may be on the lower end of top 10, but she is still top 10.

I wonder with the sets vs ZeRo. Diddy likey still wins the MU. But ZeRo lost some stocks due to his usual habit of spamming monkey flip when he is in a disadvategous situation. You do not want to constantly use a punishable option vs a character with a insane punish game as ZSS or Bayo as we have seen with his sets vs Salem and Mistake

 

[Das Koopa]

Looks like Salem's gonna pick up Greninja as a serious secondary

Yeah it's greninja, gonna start playing him and gonna have a legit secondary for once, I gotta stop being addicted to bayonetta. 🦋

— Salem (@SalemBane_) August 14, 2017

Rejoice frog mains

bruhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

updates coming soon after I get some oxygen to cope with this amazing news

 

[TDK]

I can't tell if ZSS is solo viable or not. Some of her matchups seem really bad, but she does have rage Boost Kicks to keep her in, so it's a tough call.

I think ZSS + Bowser is great as a pair though.

 

[FeelMeUp]

1 ledge roll unpunished in G1.
0 punished.
2 ledge rolls rolls unpunished in G2.
0 punished.
0 ledge rolls in G3.
Nairo catches on to the rolls in G4 and punishes one with a Dsmash read(like I mentioned) at 10:33 in the video and kills VoiD at 85%.
Same game VoiD chooses a ledge roll while Nairo rolls to the exact same spacing as last time and kills him.

Only 2 were punished after Nairo fails to do anything about them for 3 games straight.
I'll stand by the idea that it's a good option against her unless you get predictable, which VoiD did.
That aside, the information you posted was fantastic, Vyrnx .
Great work.

 

[The-Technique]

I can't tell if ZSS is solo viable or not. Some of her matchups seem really bad, but she does have rage Boost Kicks to keep her in, so it's a tough call.

I think ZSS + Bowser is great as a pair though.

According to Nairo, ZSS has Diddy, Bayonetta, and Sheik down as -1 matchups, Cloud as "volatile even" and everyone else is either even or winning.

Bowser originally started out as his "haha I troll you" pick versus his friends and twitch subs, and I still think that holds true today except now he gets to troll players nationally, lol.

 

[blackghost]

According to Nairo, ZSS has Diddy, Bayonetta, and Sheik down as -1 matchups, Cloud as "volatile even" and everyone else is either even or winning.

Bowser originally started out as his "haha I troll you" pick versus his friends and twitch subs, and I still think that holds true today except now he gets to troll players nationally, lol.

does he have reasoning for listin bayo as -1? becuase the only bayo he struggles with is salem and that statement is true for all the top players at this point.

 

[Das Koopa]

Super Smash Con 2017 (August 10-13th) (MD/VA) (1531 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st:

NRG | Nairo ,
2nd:

TSM | ZeRo
3rd:

FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
4th:

bc | Mr. R
5th:

EMP | WaDi
5th:

EMG | Mistake ,
7th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

DMG | Shoyo James ,
9th:

dyr
9th:

CLG | VoiD
9th:

6WX
9th:

StDx | Falln
13th:

P1 | Tweek
13th:

PG | ESAM
13th:

E2C | DarkShad
13th:

DMG | MattyG ,
17th:

SSN | THUNDER
17th:

Edax | Rideae
17th:

RvL | Mr. E
17th:

Cashmere
17th:

CL | Legit
17th:

PG | MVD
17th:

2GG | komorikiri
17th:

YP | Fatality
25th:

E2C | Seth
25th:

Light
25th:

Cosmos
25th:

DA | Sinji
25th:

JJROCKETS
25th:

Ryuga
25th:

2S FAD | Nicko
25th:

Luhtie
33rd:

cR | dekillsage
33rd:

Ned
33rd:

MSF | Larry Lurr
33rd:

C9 | Ally
33rd:

RNG | Dabuz ,
33rd:

LG | Abadango ,
33rd:

PG | Rich Brown
33rd:

Ke-ya ,
33rd:

PES | Peabnut
33rd:

BOT RB | SuperGirlKels
33rd:

Yatta | JK
33rd:

Puppeh
33rd:

P1 | Captain Zack
33rd:

LGS EMG Bkr | Blacktwins ,
33rd:

Dainosuke
33rd:

E2C | tyroy
49th:

Dark Wizzy
49th:

CL | DSS
49th:

PES | RFang ,
49th:

Tengu
49th:

InC | Seagull Joe ,
49th:

BSD | Aarvark
49th:

colinies
49th:

IcyMist
49th:

smasher1001 ,
49th:

Ho3K | Frozen
49th:

NameLess
49th:

Yatta | Lycan
49th:

ATR | Xaltis
49th:

Samsora
49th:

Zage
49th:

Dandy Penguin

Spoiler: Sumabato 19 (August 12th) (Kansai) (273 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: HIKARU
2nd: SHI-G | 9B
3rd: Edge
4th: Kiosk ,
5th: Zaki
5th: Masha
7th: Tea
7th: YOC
9th: Gomamugitya
9th: Masashi
9th: ikep
9th: Ri-ma
13th: Poro ,
13th: Agehasama
13th: Kie
13th: Saiya

Spoiler: Umebura 28 (August 12th) (Kanto) (256 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: KEN
2nd: SG | Rain ,
3rd: Choco
4th: Kirihara
5th: bAhuto
5th: Shu
7th: SX | Shogun
7th: Brood
9th: Eim
9th: Lea
9th: Kisha
9th: Shky
13th: RYO
13th: Some
13th: KaPMK
13th: DNG | Nietono

Spoiler: Gwinnett Brawl August (August 12th) (Southeast) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: ScAtt
2nd: HyperKirby
3rd: Salt One
4th: LordMix ,
5th: RosaGetsFit
5th: Masamune
7th: Fanttum
7th: Danye

Spoiler: Respawn 5 (August 12th) (Germany) (124 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Glutonny ,
2nd: Purple~H ,
3rd: IxisNaugus
4th: cyve ,
5th: quiK
5th: LoNg0uw
7th: Rendon
7th: Afro Smash

Spoiler: BIFROST II – Ginnugagap (August 12-13th) (Sweden) (74 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Nathan
2nd: M
3rd: Lelize
4th: Whiny

Spoiler: Throwdown LX 25 (August 12) (Portugal) (18 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MikeMostan
2nd: TJay ,
3rd: BigLord ,
4th: Nepthys

Spoiler: LAN Hero Monthly 5 (August 12th) (Southern California) (42 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Zenyou
2nd: Eon
3rd: K9sbruce ,
4th: Slither2Hunter

Spoiler: Grand Capital Smash 4 (August 12th) (East Canada) (55 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Deathorse
2nd: DarkAura
3rd: Fairlines
4th: Fwed

Spoiler: Newtown Aero Dive Episode 6 (August 12th) (Australia) (62 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Killy ,
2nd: Luco ,
3rd: Enn
4th: Dr. Ainuss

Spoiler: AllMid Smash 4 Regional (August 12th) (Midwest) (56 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: PSI | Sells
2nd: Percy
3rd: Mac Attk
4th: Skorpion Disciple

Spoiler: Updated Character Results

Diddy Kong: 640
Bayonetta: 622.5
Cloud: 511
Sheik: 409
Sonic: 360
Fox: 349
Mario: 343
Zero Suit Samus: 285.5
Rosalina & Luma: 272
Ryu: 203.5
Mewtwo: 199
Corrin: 167
Mega Man: 150.5
Pikachu: 134
Meta Knight: 132
Donkey Kong: 127
Captain Falcon: 125
Marth: 123.5
Peach: 119.5
Ness: 112
Luigi: 104.5
Villager: 97.5
Bowser: 96.5
Greninja: 93.5
Lucina: 69.5
Olimar: 69.5
Toon Link: 68.5
Lucas: 66.5
R.O.B.: 65
Samus: 61.5
Duck Hunt: 59
Lucario: 56.5
Yoshi: 50.5
Little Mac: 44.5
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 39.5
Pac-Man: 37
Wario: 36
Robin: 32
Charizard: 28
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Link: 22.5
Shulk: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
King Dedede: 14
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 3
Dark Pit: 2

 

[sleepy_Nex]

So Diddy Kong actually is back to first place in results.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

According to Nairo, ZSS has Diddy, Bayonetta, and Sheik down as -1 matchups, Cloud as "volatile even" and everyone else is either even or winning.

Bowser originally started out as his "haha I troll you" pick versus his friends and twitch subs, and I still think that holds true today except now he gets to troll players nationally, lol.

What about Cloud and Pikachu?

 

[TDK]

MSM 109 (117 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Abadango
3rd: JK
4th: Komorikiri
5th: Elegant
5th: K9Sbruce
7th: S2H
7th: Ghost

9th: Ven

 

[origamiscienceguy]

If didn't exist, where would be on the tier list?

 

[Wintermelon43]

If didn't exist, where would be on the tier list?

He would be one spot higher due to the removal of a character above it.

Although people would be discussing why Mario was removed for Dr. Mario more than they would be discussing Dr. Mario viability.

 

[Heracr055]

^Yeah, that's not how it works. A big reason Doc is so low on the tier list is because Mario exists with more desirable qualities (better combo d throw, mobility, etc). If Mario was patched out in the next patch (lol), Doc usage would likely increase due to character loyalty, some of Mario's strategies and frame data carrying over, etc. This increase in usage would bolster his results and he would rise. It could just be one spot, but it wouldn't be for the reason you described.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So Diddy Kong actually is back to first place in results.

Guess those 10 Top 64 Diddys really made a difference.

better combo d throw

At least Doc has a kill confirm out of his down throw (even if the opponent air dodges at higher percentages, Doc can get a guaranteed Fsmash).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

If didn't exist, where would be on the tier list?

I'd imagine roughly the same, probably a bit higher since he's a decent character.

Keep in mind though people don't use Doc just because Mario exists. People don't use Doc because he has Mario's weakness but worse on top of his own. Slower speed means even harder time getting through zones, bad recovery means hard life off stage, higher knock knockback while getting kills sooner means fewer combos and good strings which amplify that harder time he has getting a neutral win.

That's why people don't use Doc, it doesn't help Mario is better in pretty much every regard with similar functions, you could even argue Mario's combo game is strong enough that the damage they do per hit isn't as relevant.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I'd imagine roughly the same, probably a bit higher since he's a decent character.

Keep in mind though people don't use Doc just because Mario exists. People don't use Doc because he has Mario's weakness but worse on top of his own. Slower speed means even harder time getting through zones, bad recovery means hard life off stage, higher knock knockback while getting kills sooner means fewer combos and good strings which amplify that harder time he has getting a neutral win.

That's why people don't use Doc, it doesn't help Mario is better in pretty much every regard with similar functions, you could even argue Mario's combo game is strong enough that the damage they do per hit isn't as relevant.

You don't see Dark Pit suffering from a lack of players, even though most people will say he is objectively worse. It doesn't make sense to have his position be so low just because nobody uses him.

 

[Nu~]

Super Smash Con 2017 (August 10-13th) (MD/VA) (1531 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st:

NRG | Nairo ,
2nd:

TSM | ZeRo
3rd:

FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
4th:

bc | Mr. R
5th:

EMP | WaDi
5th:

EMG | Mistake ,
7th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

DMG | Shoyo James ,
9th:

dyr
9th:

CLG | VoiD
9th:

6WX
9th:

StDx | Falln
13th:

P1 | Tweek
13th:

PG | ESAM
13th:

E2C | DarkShad
13th:

DMG | MattyG ,
17th:

SSN | THUNDER
17th:

Edax | Rideae
17th:

RvL | Mr. E
17th:

Cashmere
17th:

CL | Legit
17th:

PG | MVD
17th:

2GG | komorikiri
17th:

YP | Fatality
25th:

E2C | Seth
25th:

Light
25th:

Cosmos
25th:

DA | Sinji
25th:

JJROCKETS
25th:

Ryuga
25th:

2S FAD | Nicko
25th:

Luhtie
33rd:

cR | dekillsage
33rd:

Ned
33rd:

MSF | Larry Lurr
33rd:

C9 | Ally
33rd:

RNG | Dabuz ,
33rd:

LG | Abadango ,
33rd:

PG | Rich Brown
33rd:

Ke-ya ,
33rd:

PES | Peabnut
33rd:

BOT RB | SuperGirlKels
33rd:

Yatta | JK
33rd:

Puppeh
33rd:

P1 | Captain Zack
33rd:

LGS EMG Bkr | Blacktwins ,
33rd:

Dainosuke
33rd:

E2C | tyroy
49th:

Dark Wizzy
49th:

CL | DSS
49th:

PES | RFang ,
49th:

Tengu
49th:

InC | Seagull Joe ,
49th:

BSD | Aarvark
49th:

colinies
49th:

IcyMist
49th:

smasher1001 ,
49th:

Ho3K | Frozen
49th:

NameLess
49th:

Yatta | Lycan
49th:

ATR | Xaltis
49th:

Samsora
49th:

Zage
49th:

Dandy Penguin

Spoiler: Sumabato 19 (August 12th) (Kansai) (273 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: HIKARU
2nd: SHI-G | 9B
3rd: Edge
4th: Kiosk ,
5th: Zaki
5th: Masha
7th: Tea
7th: YOC
9th: Gomamugitya
9th: Masashi
9th: ikep
9th: Ri-ma
13th: Poro ,
13th: Agehasama
13th: Kie
13th: Saiya

Spoiler: Umebura 28 (August 12th) (Kanto) (256 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: KEN
2nd: SG | Rain ,
3rd: Choco
4th: Kirihara
5th: bAhuto
5th: Shu
7th: SX | Shogun
7th: Brood
9th: Eim
9th: Lea
9th: Kisha
9th: Shky
13th: RYO
13th: Some
13th: KaPMK
13th: DNG | Nietono

Spoiler: Gwinnett Brawl August (August 12th) (Southeast) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: ScAtt
2nd: HyperKirby
3rd: Salt One
4th: LordMix ,
5th: RosaGetsFit
5th: Masamune
7th: Fanttum
7th: Danye

Spoiler: Respawn 5 (August 12th) (Germany) (124 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Glutonny ,
2nd: Purple~H ,
3rd: IxisNaugus
4th: cyve ,
5th: quiK
5th: LoNg0uw
7th: Rendon
7th: Afro Smash

Spoiler: BIFROST II – Ginnugagap (August 12-13th) (Sweden) (74 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Nathan
2nd: M
3rd: Lelize
4th: Whiny

Spoiler: Throwdown LX 25 (August 12) (Portugal) (18 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MikeMostan
2nd: TJay ,
3rd: BigLord ,
4th: Nepthys

Spoiler: LAN Hero Monthly 5 (August 12th) (Southern California) (42 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Zenyou
2nd: Eon
3rd: K9sbruce ,
4th: Slither2Hunter

Spoiler: Grand Capital Smash 4 (August 12th) (East Canada) (55 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Deathorse
2nd: DarkAura
3rd: Fairlines
4th: Fwed

Spoiler: Newtown Aero Dive Episode 6 (August 12th) (Australia) (62 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Killy ,
2nd: Luco ,
3rd: Enn
4th: Dr. Ainuss

Spoiler: AllMid Smash 4 Regional (August 12th) (Midwest) (56 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: PSI | Sells
2nd: Percy
3rd: Mac Attk
4th: Skorpion Disciple

Spoiler: Updated Character Results

Diddy Kong: 640
Bayonetta: 622.5
Cloud: 511
Sheik: 409
Sonic: 360
Fox: 349
Mario: 343
Zero Suit Samus: 285.5
Rosalina & Luma: 272
Ryu: 203.5
Mewtwo: 199
Corrin: 167
Mega Man: 150.5
Pikachu: 134
Meta Knight: 132
Donkey Kong: 127
Captain Falcon: 125
Marth: 123.5
Peach: 119.5
Ness: 112
Luigi: 104.5
Villager: 97.5
Bowser: 96.5
Greninja: 93.5
Lucina: 69.5
Olimar: 69.5
Toon Link: 68.5
Lucas: 66.5
R.O.B.: 65
Samus: 61.5
Duck Hunt: 59
Lucario: 56.5
Yoshi: 50.5
Little Mac: 44.5
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 39.5
Pac-Man: 37
Wario: 36
Robin: 32
Charizard: 28
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Link: 22.5
Shulk: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
King Dedede: 14
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 3
Dark Pit: 2

Lit. PAC-MAN is finally above the likes of Robin and Pit in terms of results.

My day is MADE.

Small victories :,)

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

You don't see Dark Pit suffering from a lack of players, even though most people will say he is objectively worse. It doesn't make sense to have his position be so low just because nobody uses him.

You don't see Dark Pit because he's a much more direct clone than Doc is to Mario. From what I understand from Pit mains you have no reason to use him over Pit but for a few MUs because they simply aren't different enough to really warrant a separate player base so yes Dark Pit as a individual would be lower simply because no one uses him.

The same thing, although a little looser is why Doc is lower than he theoretically could be. Doc and Mario like I said are different enough to warrant them being individuals but ultimately they will play the same, try to accomplish the same things and it's pretty safe to say if you can use Doc you can use Mario without a lot being different. Because of that why if your trying to be the best would you pick Doc over Mario?

Now as I said before Doc theoretically is a decent character and I think he might have some upsides in MUs that Mario might not.

 

[C0rvus]

Dark Pit is slightly worse than Pit, but any Pit player who is playing a matchup where they want an earlier kill option in Electroshock Arm and/or find arrows to be less useful can pick Dark Pit instead. So often you'll find players sort of co-main the two characters, obviously favoring regular Pit heavily. His arrows are one of his best tools.

I really wish the two characters were more like Doc and Mario, just to give me an actual reason to play Dark Pit other than I like his taunts and win quotes more.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I found some interesting things out about last night. Some of this may be known but sharing it here just incase...



Most people already know that Marth's Ftilt and Utilt will move him forward slightly when you use the moves repeatedly (effectively, when you buffer the second Ftilt/Utilt), similar to how his Brawl Dtilt did the same thing.

However, I discovered last night that this extends to all the moves in his moveset.

Effectively, if you use an Ftilt/Utilt, and buffer the following attack, it will start that small step forward. It doesn't matter what move you use, be it a Jab, a Dtilt, a smash attack, or even a special attack, the buffered move will start a small step forward.

This does extend to aerials, however the small step forwards extends instead to a small momentum boost to your buffered jump. I haven't tested if this extends to his standing grab, but something tells me this is an exception.

You can test it yourself if you like; pick Marth and roll to one side of a stage so you're exactly on the ledge facing inwards. Using Tilt Stick, Ftilt and then buffer a Jab or a Dtilt. Do this around 3 times and you'll notice Marth is now standing a small distance away from where he started.

It isn't something revolutionary, but it's an interesting property. There may be a random time when somebody air dodges Utilt on their way to the ground and you buffering Fsmash will give it that extra reach needed to tipper it, who knows, but at least now we know why it would happen.

I love looking into things like this.



Oh, and this doesn't work with because her Ftilt and Utilt do not move her a step forward when she buffers them.

But at least she keeps a tiny bit of momentum from a walk if she uses Jab, Utilt or spotdodge out of it.

Oh, and 's Dsmash won't hit Lucina when she's stood underneath a battlefield platform, but it will hit Marth.

Yay for minor differences!


-----

And I saw a post about / somewhere above which got me thinking...

I used to think that Pit was the far superior character out of him and Dark Pit; to me, Dark Pit was pointless.

However, my friend & doubles partner, and the best Ganondorf in the UK, has been picking up a couple of objectively better characters to help alongside Ganon (for reference, he's been using Palutena and Dark Pit too).

I can tell you now that he's much better with Dark Pit in ways that him playing as Pit would not reward him as well.

It's possibly a side effect of playing Ganon, but his reading ability and ability to read/predict airdodges etc is very good. It's not fun him predicting an air dodge at 70% and dying to an aerial Electroshock, or him reading the correct getup option and dying to a grounded one at 65%.

We have been killed by Electroshock at sub 20% before too (Thanks, Smashville platform).

While I still think that Pit is arguably the better of the two, the differences are minimal overall and Dark Pit has niche's about himself that can indeed mesh with certain playstyles better than Pit does.

 

[PK Bash]

Minor nitpick, Lucas Dsmash DOES hit a standing Lucina under a Battlefield platform. Same for Dreamland platforms.
Rest of that post is interesting though, I never realised that.

I guess I need to say something else to make this post less of a waste of space. Going a bit further up the page to a topic I can actually talk about without pulling words out of my arse then, someone said something about if ZSS is solo viable or not and said how clutch factor might be enough to trump having bad mus with the best characters. Well I dunno how good or bad her matchups are or how we're defining "solo viable" here but I am confident that being able to kill someone mad early is not enough on it's own to make someone solo viable if they have crappy matchups with common characters. Consistency is key and if the character is not capable of being consistent, I wouldn't trust that character to be solo viable.
To be a consistent character in this game, I would have said you need to have a reliable neutral, reliable kill potential, capable punish game and workable disadvantage state as a bare minimum. Having that explosive factor on it's own is nice and being able to apply it may get you very far, especially with a good mindset and if your raw skill outstrips the vast majority of the attendees at a tournament, but it's not something you can always rely on when you need it.
Just my thoughts on that matter, for what they're worth.

 

[|RK|]

I haven't seen Pit do enough with his arrows to make him not mediocre, despite the fact everyone claims that makes such a big difference.

As a result, I still don't understand the preference for him over Dark Pit. I remember when Dark Pit was buffed, Nairo said the Electroshock improved him due to being able to force people into shield more.

Taking the above post into account (and watching ZeRo play a Dark Pit as Ike the other day), I'm inclined to believe that Dark Pit has a much better pressure game than Pit. Genuinely not sure how Pit's arrows save him against any of the top tiers in this game.

But a pressure tool? I can see how that's genuinely valuable in today's meta. Could be wrong, ofc. But.

 

[Illuminose]

I haven't seen Pit do enough with his arrows to make him not mediocre, despite the fact everyone claims that makes such a big difference.

As a result, I still don't understand the preference for him over Dark Pit. I remember when Dark Pit was buffed, Nairo said the Electroshock improved him due to being able to force people into shield more.

Taking the above post into account (and watching ZeRo play a Dark Pit as Ike the other day), I'm inclined to believe that Dark Pit has a much better pressure game than Pit. Genuinely not sure how Pit's arrows save him against any of the top tiers in this game.

But a pressure tool? I can see how that's genuinely valuable in today's meta. Could be wrong, ofc. But.

it's worth taking some time to watch some sets of earth to understand how he's using arrows. he uses arrows to pressure people offstage, giving him good damage and sometimes gimps, and to pressure their landings so he can trap them into up smashes and such. it really extends his advantage state a lot in ways that dark pit simply doesn't have access to. i've played against a pit in the past that had decent control of arrows, and it makes landing/recovery much trickier. dark pit can be scarier because of the read tool that electroshock arm presents, but arrows are a much more consistent extension of pit's advantage state and a versatile tool.

 

[TDK]

It depends on what you need for the matchup. You play if you need better arrows to tag on percent and annoy your opponent while they're landing, and against certain characters the arrow snipes offstage can even be fatal. If you don't need that and would rather have a very strong kill option off a read, play . Because really, due to how similar they are, if you play one you can play both.

 

[|RK|]

it's worth taking some time to watch some sets of earth to understand how he's using arrows. he uses arrows to pressure people offstage, giving him good damage and sometimes gimps, and to pressure their landings so he can trap them into up smashes and such. it really extends his advantage state a lot in ways that dark pit simply doesn't have access to. i've played against a pit in the past that had decent control of arrows, and it makes landing/recovery much trickier. dark pit can be scarier because of the read tool that electroshock arm presents, but arrows are a much more consistent extension of pit's advantage state and a versatile tool.

I just watched Earth vs ZeRo from EVO 2016 & Earth vs VoiD from a WNF. The first set I watched because I figured Diddy has one of the most exploitable recoveries, but ZeRo had no trouble getting around arrows. Vs VoiD, I saw the potential a little bit more, but it still didn't actually do much. Like a Fox laser, kinda - he took some damage when recovering, and that's it.

But then in the related videos, I saw something interesting - Earth using Dark Pit for CaptainZack's Bayonetta. Evidently, he's also done this against 9B (last month, even). Lost both sets, but clearly he doesn't think Pit's arrows are worth in that MU. That's a meta relevant MU.

More importantly, a consistent advantage is great, for sure. But if there's anything Smash 4 shows, it's that an extending consistently without a kill isn't necessarily the best option, and fear factor + kill power is godlike in many MUs. I think Pit's arrows are great and all, but I'm not convinced it's better than having that fear factor and kill power ready to punish a single neutral error.

 

[ARGHETH]

But then in the related videos, I saw something interesting - Earth using Dark Pit for CaptainZack's Bayonetta. Evidently, he's also done this against 9B (last month, even). Lost both sets, but clearly he doesn't think Pit's arrows are worth in that MU. That's a meta relevant MU.

I mean, that's nice and all, but he uses Pit for every other meta relevant MU.

Also, Side B has almost 50 frames of endlag. That's as much as Ike's Fsmash.

 

[Myollnir]

Can we not forget that has a weaker F-Tilt in terms on knockback?

Picking him means that you effectively give up a really good killmove (especially in ledgetrapping situations).

To me, is a lot better than and I don't think I'll ever change my mind on that. Arrows are a LOT more useful than SideB, and their most effective use is racking up damage during edgeguarding. can't do that.

The only use of his SideB (compared to ) is reading a ledge option and killing early with it with rage. And you're giving up a safe killmove during that same situation at higher % (in terms of F-Tilt). Additionnally, 's SideB killing of the top means it will always kill regardless of where you're standing (and will kill earlier on platforms). For example, if recovers with SideB and hits the opponent before snapping to the ledge, there's almost no chance that it'll kill.

isn't terrible, he's just weaker than .