Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Aaron1997]

Raito's MU chart for DH

Note: "Good match-up" = Even

He also answered some questions on some placements


worst then ? He Said that She can fight around the Can better and her off-stage is easier then Marth.

Doing better then? He said that because of Ganon's good Dash Attack, not relying on grab's (Trapping/zoners characters are really good vs grab heavy characters) and great edgeguarding makes it much easlier for ganon

 

[Illuminose]

i think raito's chart is a tad optimistic (bayo is worse than -1, pika is not even, a couple of even mus could also be argued even or -1), but it's really not that far off

duck hunt is pretty good lol

 

[Lord Dio]

Doing better then? He said that because of Ganon's good Dash Attack, not relying on grab's (Trapping/zoners characters are really good vs grab heavy characters) and great edgeguarding makes it much easlier for ganon

this is indeed strange. dash attack and egdeguarding game are enough to put him as a harder mu to win than dk and bowser? Not sure if I want to believe it, though I have always been of the opinion ganon's ledge game and edgeguard game is better than most people think....regardless, ganon is slower, and does arguably worse against projectiles........

Also, I'm looking back at the v2 discussion for reasons, and I'm at the week up to Frostbite. This is good stuff, especially with the downplaying of zss, and the diddy zss matchup being summarized as "everything ZeRo didn't do against nairo that he should have done"

It's often said we should reflect on the past, and tbh the past is proving very fascinating.

 

[Nobie]

I don't recall seeing any discussion here about the most recent Beefy Smash Doods video, which is about the best characters for intercepting a teammate who's about to die.

I won't lay out the entire list so that the BSD fellas get some actual views, but the #1 might surprise people: Yoshi.

While we've generally been down on Yoshi as of late, the Doods make a good argument. Combining his mobility and the fact that you can angle his Up B, Yoshi's eggs can reach almost anywhere quickly. They also have huge hitboxes, stop all momentum (thus preventing Yoshi from accidentally adding knockback and killing his teammate), and just in general aren't strong enough to team kill.

#2 is Bayonetta. Combined with being a better overall character, this means that Bayo is likely the better team character, but it does mean that Yoshi potentially excels at being a kind of reverse stock tank: constantly keeping his teammate's stocks intact. I do wonder what character would best synergize with a Yoshi built around this tactic, though.

I feel like you'd need a character with a nice disjoint/ranged game who can reliably save Yoshi from getting footstooled.

 

[PK Gaming]

4.) Once Corrin players start to really figure out that Nair OOS is pretty gross, life gets better for them.

Good Corrin's already make use out of Nair OOS when applicable, but it's not like liberal use of it is going to make a big difference. Top tier pressure is simply too strong for it, and Corrin players want to stay out of shield for as much as possible.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wasn't it a few weeks ago after LTC5 that someone said Lima gets away with more than he should? I would honestly love to see Fatality punish those things. The pre-EVO video karma has lasted too long.

and if Lima wins I will officially believe in anything relating to superstition and curses. Because there is no way Fataility cursed himself as soon as he made that video

 

[ぱみゅ]

#2 is Bayonetta. Combined with being a better overall character, this means that Bayo is likely the better team character, but it does mean that Yoshi potentially excels at being a kind of reverse stock tank: constantly keeping his teammate's stocks intact. I do wonder what character would best synergize with a Yoshi built around this tactic, though.

They didn't explain it and I can test it, but I wonder if this applies to both Witch Twists.
Also, in Teams the meta is a complete separate world from Singles, you can't just say one is "overall better" since their functions in teams are usually wildly different.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Yeah, doubles is a completely different meta. For example, Puff is much better with a partner than by herself, because easy combos into rest, and your partner can wake her up. But she's garbage in singles.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On the topic of v

Yeah, Corrin isn't really a CP to Bayonetta. Bayonetta in general has the advantage, but it's certainly not a shut out for Corrin in the slightest. Corrin's combo game is rather effective on Bayonetta; the combination of Bayonetta being a fast faller and on the heavier scale of lightweights mean Fair and Nair set up combos very well, and Fair -> Uair works for quite a long time. Bayonetta is in general too slow to reliably punish Pin's kicks if her shield is pinned, so that's a good safe option.

Though one thing I want to see more people do in this MU from the Bayonetta side of things is Witch Time on Dragon Ascent. The hitboxes on that thing are huge, and it's relatively easy to Witch Time, so if you can force Corrin to recover low, that should be a free Witch Time into potential death, be it from a simple reverse Twist 1 (grab ledge) into Dsmash. I do this a fair bit vs Corrin (it got me both stocks in game 1 of a tournament set I won recently).

And while I think Lima was overexaggerating about/ outright beating Bayonetta, he was right in the fact that if they play reactionary, they have more than enough to beat Bayonetta. Maybe a slight advantage for the pair perhaps. The ability to use Counter on ABK when she's attempting to recover is a huge boon too; can KO as early as 70% if done correctly.

And on v/

While Lucina's raw ability off stage can be more reliable against a recovering Duck Hunt, if you use Dolphin Slash to attempt to stage spike the Duck Hunt player, Duck Hunt's wall tech is unique in the fact that it puts him out in the perfect range for tipper Bair, moreso that almost any other character. It's relatively easy to get it vs this tech than most others, especially due to his overall hurtbox being small too, which means there's less room to screw up landing that tipper (bigger hurtbox in that situation could mean a sourspot hits by mistake).

Also having the ability to decide how far back you want to knock the can back with Ftilt (not far with sourspot, further with tipper) can help reversing the mindgames.

He's also strangely one of the few characters that isn't a fastfaller where landing tipper side B 4 is relatively easy (as opposed to stupid easy) to kill near the ledge. I think it's a combination of his weight and fall speed, meaning he falls into it easy enough while his weight isn't enough to let him survive it too long.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

View attachment 132197
Raito's MU chart for DH

Note: "Good match-up" = Even

He also answered some questions on some placements


worst then ? He Said that She can fight around the Can better and her off-stage is easier then Marth.

Doing better then? He said that because of Ganon's good Dash Attack, not relying on grab's (Trapping/zoners characters are really good vs grab heavy characters) and great edgeguarding makes it much easlier for ganon

I don't agree with Zard's tier placement on this list....have I been bodied by good DHD? Yes. Was it a two-stock slaughterfest? Not even remotely.
The issue is that while DHD has two projectiles that can follow-up and frustrate zard zard only needs flamethrower to beat them both.
Flamethrower redirects can, shatters clay pigeon and afterwards hits DHD behind it. DHD always needs to dash in order to redirect the can back to where he wants it to go, so a good timed spotdodge, dodge roll, or air dodge and can becomes more of a liability because DHD has to go fetch the can in a set time frame to put it back towards zard. However, once zard actually has to jump he's in trouble because DHD uair is nasty and can juggle zard without a problem, on top of that any advantage zard has is lost once he gets knocked upwards, he loses easy answers to can and clay pigeon, even wild gunman can throw zard off. Offstage zard can use dair, uair, fair and bair to make DHD miserable, thing is DHD can use those same moves on an offstage zard plus can, clay pigeon and wild gunman so it's a toss-up once one gets offstage.
I'd say it's roughly around +1 for DHD. It's winnable but not nearly as much as the MU chart says it is.

 

[Bowserboy3]

What's hilarious about v is that a measly little rusty can stops a giant flying lizard encased in flames from barrelling towards you with force

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is really good in doubles. His mobility gives him access to the whole stage very quickly, he can stock tank really well, he can start combos from far (egg toss) and his smashes, aerials and downB are really strong combo finisher.
And Yoshi is everywheeere.

 

[Kofu]

They didn't explain it and I can test it, but I wonder if this applies to both Witch Twists.
Also, in Teams the meta is a complete separate world from Singles, you can't just say one is "overall better" since their functions in teams are usually wildly different.

Assuming you're talking about Egg Throw and Witch Twist interrupting launched teammates, it seems like the second of two hits will always override any knockback the target was experiencing before, regardless of how weak the hits are. Interesting mechanic; I assume that the first hit resets the target, so to speak, such that even if the first hit doesn't completely interrupt the momentum from being launched the second will be able two because the weaker first hit is now what the game is checking to see if momentum can be changed.

I know in Brawl windboxes would stop any momentum but that doesn't seem to be the case in Smash 4.

 

[Luco]

Interesting that Raito placed Ness as such a good MU when I remember @DunnoBro talking about Ness like he was one of DH's worst MUs in a customs off meta.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I do not like the saving partners video from the Beefy Smash Doods because they only cover a few characters who moves they believe are great for stopping kill moves when I would have preferred if they covered moves to get out of the opponent's combos, witch time, saving your opponent when they are too far from the stage to recover (includes if they lost a double jump or their up special will not reach), or moves to use when you have no way to avoid friendly fire.

As for how they covered the video, I did not like how they treated Lucas. In addition to Pk Thunder, he can use Nair, Bair (meteor spike), Pk Fire, and PK Freeze to stop momentum from a killing move.

As for PK Thunder, it is a nice option in theory, but in an actual match (happened to me in friendlies before) ,the opponent that is not fighting your partner has more than enough time to charge a full smash attack if they so choose to due to Lucas being vulnerable during the entire move's duration plus the huge endlag that comes with the move, not to mention Lucas's PK Thunder is slower than Ness's which can make it much harder to hit your partner in time if say you were to start Lucas's PK Thunder from the ground on one side of the stage. You would have to use it before the high knockback move is performed or be on a platform or in the air where your partner may be sent flying towards for it to work.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

What's hilarious about v is that a measly little rusty can stops a giant flying lizard encased in flames from barrelling towards you with force

According to the game itself Flare blitz is stopped once it hits an opponent, the stage or 'an obstacle'. Can is considered 'an obstacle' so flare blitz crashing into can sets it off prematurely. (though zard shouldn't be using Flare Blitz in the first place in neutral due to the fact that it leaves him vulnerable to jablock if DHD so much as shields or is able to intercept it.)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

According to the game itself Flare blitz is stopped once it hits an opponent, the stage or 'an obstacle'. Can is considered 'an obstacle' so flare blitz crashing into can sets it off prematurely. (though zard shouldn't be using Flare Blitz in the first place in neutral due to the fact that it leaves him vulnerable to jablock if DHD so much as shields or is able to intercept it.)

Are gunmen and clay pigeons also considered obstacles?

 

[Krysco]

Pretty sure anything or nearly anything with a hurtbox can stop Flare Blitz. Duck Hunt's stuff, Zelda's Phantom, Luma, Villager tree, Wario's bike etc. Not sure about certain things like D3 gordos, Link/Tink bombs, Jr. Mechakoopa and Olimar Pikmin Toss

 

[outfoxd]

Are gunmen and clay pigeons also considered obstacles?

Yeah, all three of DHs projectiles project a hurtbox in some way. They can completely negate non transcendant projectiles just by being there.

 

[Game7a1]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-13-2ggc-scr-saga.449631/
Weekend thread is up. Also, to add onto this Duck Hunt discussion, I thought Little Mac does well in the matchup. I wonder why Raito puts it as an easy matchup.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

tbh, the only projectiles that flare blitz punches through are things like samus' homing missiles (not the power shot) pikachu's thundershock, ZSS stun charge shot (only uncharged), uncharged aura spheres and shadow balls, and that's about all I know, it has damage protection but it's very light. Like I said I don't use it due to it being one of the only moves that leaves zard vulnerable to jablock.

 

[Nah]

tbh, the only projectiles that flare blitz punches through are things like samus' homing missiles (not the power shot) pikachu's thundershock, ZSS stun charge shot (only uncharged), uncharged aura spheres and shadow balls, and that's about all I know, it has damage protection but it's very light. Like I said I don't use it due to it being one of the only moves that leaves zard vulnerable to jablock.

Pretty sure Flare Blitz will also punch through Robin's Thunder and Elthunder (but not Arcthunder or Thoron), though I'd need to double check that. Probably cuts through peanuts from Diddy's peanut gun too since those seem to lose to like everything.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

tbh, the only projectiles that flare blitz punches through are things like samus' homing missiles (not the power shot) pikachu's thundershock, ZSS stun charge shot (only uncharged), uncharged aura spheres and shadow balls, and that's about all I know, it has damage protection but it's very light. Like I said I don't use it due to it being one of the only moves that leaves zard vulnerable to jablock.

In addition to the above I've also punched through Lucas' PK Fire with flare blitz

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Punching through stuff depends on when you do it and what thing you are hitting.

Luigi's fireball has stopped me sometimes as a coolidable object.

 

[jet56]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-13-2ggc-scr-saga.449631/
Weekend thread is up. Also, to add onto this Duck Hunt discussion, I thought Little Mac does well in the matchup. I wonder why Raito puts it as an easy matchup.

For the same reason little mac loses the pac man mu: Can forces mac into the air. It covers Macs ledge options very well, he can get sniped offstage with can or clay pigeon, and duck hunt has the same win condition as everyone else does: Play defensive and camp. Expect for duck hint this is much easier. While little mac does indeed have very good zone breakers, the fact he can't press advantage if his opponent jumps leads to a very uphill battle where he takes big risks to break zones with little reward. The signs of a bad character.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

In addition to the above I've also punched through Lucas' PK Fire with flare blitz

That's strange, Lucas' PK fire always stopped me cold. I've never punched through it with flare blitz.

 

[Krysco]

Just checked Kuroganehammer and it says Flare Blitz has Damage based armor of 15%. I'm guessing that means it can take hits up to that percent without being stopped such as the aforementioned Samus homing missile. Would also explain why fully charged Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball and Charge Shot stop it. I'm at the very least aware that if Zard hits a hurtbox with Flare Blitz, he goes into that animation that leaves him laying on the ground. If something as weak as a Luigi fireball stops it, I'm guessing it either hits during the frames there is no armor or perhaps the range of % it can take decreases as Zard takes damage, much like Bowser's Tough guy and Yoshi's double jump.

I'm also no expert on the character at all so if I'm wrong, I'll gladly be corrected.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I have stopped Charizard's who use Flare Blitz from a little over half a stage/ screen away. I wonder if the Lucas player you fought used PK Fire just when you got near him, maybe your hit connected first and then his PK Fire came out, or he threw it out enough times during that match that it got stale.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

People want people get
Decided to update since my look on the game is more positive now.
Last one for 1.1.6 though
Throw your opinions at me pic.twitter.com/gdncqqHsPe

— Nicko (@2Scoops_Nicko) August 18, 2017

Nicko has made his shulk matchup chart

 

[outfoxd]

For the same reason little mac loses the pac man mu: Can forces mac into the air. It covers Macs ledge options very well, he can get sniped offstage with can or clay pigeon, and duck hunt has the same win condition as everyone else does: Play defensive and camp. Expect for duck hint this is much easier. While little mac does indeed have very good zone breakers, the fact he can't press advantage if his opponent jumps leads to a very uphill battle where he takes big risks to break zones with little reward. The signs of a bad character.

Dh can also can blast out of ko punch as a last resort.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

People want people get
Decided to update since my look on the game is more positive now.
Last one for 1.1.6 though
Throw your opinions at me pic.twitter.com/gdncqqHsPe

— Nicko (@2Scoops_Nicko) August 18, 2017

Nicko has made his shulk matchup chart

Completely agree with this. I hardly ever get bodied by a Shulk player but the ones that know which arts to switch between can make the MU a pain in the tuckus. Smash and buster arts aren't a big deal, since it works both ways and shulk doesn't get a massive boost to his other stats.
It's when he goes into speed and jump mode that it becomes a pain.
Speed mode makes zard combo food for as long as it's out and unless zard is really good at reaction he'll be toast really fast. Jump mode can surprise a zard (especially me) because that extra air speed makes Shulk hard to catch up with, not to mention being out of range on most of zard's ground moves and being able to beat Zard's aerials.
However, if zard plays the waiting game or camps Shulk has a hard time because of one thing:flamethrower. That single solitary move makes any approach on Zard a royal pain for Shulk. Back slash? Flamethrower intercepts it. Vision? Unless zard is spamming flamethrower or not using any mix-ups or if zard set off vision before forget it. Air Slash? Properly spaced even Air Slash 2 will be intercepted by flamethrower after it's used (note I said 'properly spaced' edgeguarding using flamethrower on Air Slash is surprisingly difficult). It turns into a game where Shulk has to approach Zard since he doesn't have any projectiles to force the approach himself which is just the way zard wants it. Thing is with his arts his stats are constantly switching around.
While Zard has an answer for anything Shulk might do the same can be said for Shulk.
I believe it's even but volatile and dependent on arts and art cooldown.

 

[BSP]

Yeah, all three of DHs projectiles project a hurtbox in some way. They can completely negate non transcendant projectiles just by being there.

We don't have a word for what you're trying to say. DH's stuff stops projectiles that don't continue through one hurtbox, regardless of it they're transcendant or not. Can stops Fox's lasers doesn't it? Those are transcendent.

I say "piercing" for stuff like Robo beam, Thoron, Metal Blade, Pac-Man's Key, etc.

 

[outfoxd]

We don't have a word for what you're trying to say. DH's stuff stops projectiles that don't continue through one hurtbox, regardless of it they're transcendant or not. Can stops Fox's lasers doesn't it? Those are transcendent.

I say "piercing" for stuff like Robo beam, Thoron, Metal Blade, Pac-Man's Key, etc.

I am misinformed. Probably heard transcendant somewhere and never rectified my concepts.

 

[PJB]

Interesting, intuitively I wouldn't expect shulk to beat marcina, could anyone elaborate on why this might be?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Wow it's pretty rare that a mu-chart has the Palu mu right.

This shulk mu-chart locks really good.

 

[The-Technique]

Interesting, intuitively I wouldn't expect shulk to beat marcina, could anyone elaborate on why this might be?

"Nicko: Whenever marth hits me i dont care whenever ike hits me i could die. It isnt toohard for ike to catch shulk due to deceptive anti airs

Q: Curious on the Marcina MU, I've never played a skilled shulk so I'm interested on how you feel you slightly win the MU. Not doubting though

Nicko: Marth and lucina have to respect shulk since bigger range perfect weight for every setup gets circle camped by speed and jump mode"

And in general its how the characters interact. Shulk outranges Marth so Marth has to get in Shulk's zone to put him in disadvantage, but Shulk can also circle camp Marth with Speed and Jump arts. Combine Marth's poor landing options with Shulk's decent anti-air coverage and ledge traps, life can be difficult for Marth.

Wow it's pretty rare that a mu-chart has the Palu mu right.

This shulk mu-chart locks really good.

Helps that TLTC is in his region, too.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

With over 100 entrants and lots of top level talent out of state, today's Curtain Call held in West Michigan event had some very interesting results that may be worth a look for you all, and was the largest and most stacked Smash 4 tournament hosted in the West MI area to date! The stream can be found here.

Curtain Call (103 Entrants) (Midwest)
1st: Ned
2nd: Marss
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Gravity | Blank
5th: Nom
5th: Nero
7th: King James
7th: FS | SETHsational

 

[Nathan Richardson]

With over 100 entrants and lots of top level talent out of state, today's Curtain Call held in West Michigan event had some very interesting results that may be worth a look for you all, and was the largest and most stacked Smash 4 tournament hosted in the West MI area to date! The stream can be found here.

Curtain Call (103 Entrants) (Midwest)
1st: Ned
2nd: Marss
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Gravity | Blank
5th: Nom
5th: Nero
7th: King James
7th: FS | SETHsational

It's too bad I live on the EAST side of Michigan. This would've been something to see.

 

[TDK]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Cloud has almost as many wins in doubles as the other 57 characters in smash 4 put together.

What do you guys think about Cloud in doubles?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Cloud has almost as many wins in doubles as the other 57 characters in smash 4 put together.

What do you guys think about Cloud in doubles?

Personally I think all Cloud Team should not be banned, but Cloud should be limited to just one user a team. Leo and Komokiri show that while Cloud is crazy enough in doubles. But the synergy, combos and kill setups he has with himself is just way to ridiculous.

Leo and Komo have dominated 2 doubles competions in a row with their dual Cloud team