Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Y2Kay]

Am I the only one who plays Pit over Dark Pit because Forward Tilt actually kills at the ledge? I just love using that move for ledgetrapping.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Me too, I prefer the tipper and knockback on Pit ftilt over Dark Pit.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Is there any advantage to Dark Pit's ftilt? It kind of bothers me that you trade better arrows for a better electroshock arm with Dark Pit, that's fine, but then his ftilt is just weaker for no reason. Is it useful for combos or anything like that?

 

[Krysco]

Is there any advantage to Dark Pit's ftilt? It kind of bothers me that you trade better arrows for a better electroshock arm with Dark Pit, that's fine, but then his ftilt is just weaker for no reason. Is it useful for combos or anything like that?

If I'm not mistaken, it leads to more tech chase scenarios which can compliment Electro Shock. I also recall there being a patch that did something with Pit's multijab or multijab finisher that left Dark Pit's alone. Don't recall what exactly it was though.

Edit: looked up the patch I was talking about. They increased the hitbox size of Pit's multijab finisher and decreased it's z-axis displacement in 1.1.0. In that same patch, all they did for Dark Pit was make his neutral b do more damage, make the arrows fly faster and for both Pit's, the endlag was reduced by 3 frames. Pit hasn't been touched by a patch since while Dark Pit got his side b buffed to what it is now in 1.1.3 and in 1.1.4 his Final Smash got visual changes.

 

[|RK|]

I'd agree with you guys in the earlier days of Smash 4, but when the best Pit loses to one of the most gimpable characters I'm the game, I'm not really seeing where the perceived strength of these arrows is coming from.

Additionally, this meta centered around an X-factor is extremely unkind to Pit. Pit is a character centered around playing an extensive neutral, but without amazing neutral tools. Nor does he have a powerful confirm from that neutral.

Dark Pit doesn't necessarily improve in most of those areas, but he does gain an option to end a stock significantly earlier than Pit can. So he doesn't necessarily have to go through the grueling neutral every single time.

Like, if Pit had a top tier neutral, I'd agree his arrows were more useful. But he does not.

Beyond that, again quoting Nairo - the existence of Electroshock scares opponents more than Upperdash does. As a result, at relatively early percents, you get way more grabs and the ability to force the opponent offstage at an unsavory angle for them.

On top of that, I see you guys mentioning ledge traps and how Electroshock is scary if you read the correct ledge option... but not putting those two things together. It's like a less extreme Limit Cloud - his ledgetrapping actually *improves*.

So you get a boosted neutral, better ledgetrapping, and an X-Factor so you don't have to play neutral as long as Pit does for clutch cases. I genuinely think all of those things are more valuable than what I've seen Earth do with Pit's arrows - but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: The tech chase thing is super interesting, and something I didn't know about. I'd love to see it in action, but if that's the case, it's even *better*.

 

[Aarrow]

ElectroShock is for catching landings and most likely the reason why you 'd see Earth use him over vs
Arrows would have little to no affect on Bayo's recovery, and ability to punish landings with the SideB harder than his counterpart is an obvious advantage against , who's bound to be jumping since her ground game is admittedly lacking.
Basically has an undeniably better edgeguard game but has better potential to kill off of juggles/hard reads.
A clear example: forces to use his dbl jump on FD, assuming he can't get to ledge,only landing options are airdodging to the ground (would be hit by grounded ElectroShock) or Bair/Attack as he lands (still gets beaten by ElectroShock - it's literally what the armor on the move is for).could probs edgeguard him to death, but wouldn't kill as early in the situation above. I have no idea what's up with the Ftilt though, Sakurai's just cheeky sometimes

 

[TDK]

Speaking of Pit...

Touryumon Weekday Tournament #9 (48 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Kuro
3rd: Fuwa
4th: Mao

It looks like Kuro's in the market for a new character.

 

[Krysco]

Edited my last post with the patch I was thinking of but another thing to consider is that while the lower knockback of Dark Pit's ftilt helps with tech chasing, the hitbox lasts from frames 10-14 and the faf is 40 so best case scenario, you're waiting 26~ frames before you can act again and in the case of Electro Shock, the hurtbox/projectile detector isn't active till frame 16 at the earliest and after detecting something to hit, the actual attack comes out on frame 2 (so it's possible to detect someone laying on the ground but then their getup option makes them avoid your attack). The tip of ftilt does 10% compared to 7% from the rest of the move so it's better to be close up at higher percents. The move does also have the chance of causing the untechable spin, making the threat of Electro Shock even greater.

 

[krazySyko]

Speaking of Pit...

Touryumon Weekday Tournament #9 (48 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Kuro
3rd: Fuwa
4th: Mao

It looks like Kuro's in the market for a new character.

Kuro has always had a secondary fox, and he actually did go all fox for at least 1 tourney a while ago, so it'll remain to be seen if this is the new norm for him or he's doing what earth did for a little bit going all one or the other in different tourneys.

 

[BTVolta]

May be a good thing to note: At SmashCon, Sinji took out the best ZSS player in Florida, Zeta.

Zeta is not the best ZSS in Florida. Nick Riddle still kinda holds that title and even then Tumultus is still higher than Zeta. So at best he's 3rd.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

So you get a boosted neutral, better ledgetrapping, and an X-Factor so you don't have to play neutral as long as Pit does for clutch cases. I genuinely think all of those things are more valuable than what I've seen Earth do with Pit's arrows - but maybe that's just me.

What do you mean by X-Factor?

 

[TDK]

What do you mean by X-Factor?

a X-Factor, sometimes referred to as a "Smash 4 factor", is, in smash 4 terms, the ability to kill very early when you need to, often bolstered by rage. Good examples include:

- Ding Dong/Koopa Scoopa
- Limit Cross Slash
- Luma
- High Aura + Rage
- Bayonetta anything

... I think.

 

[krazySyko]

Update on kuro, according to Twitter he is indeed maining fox now.

As a Pit/Dpit player it makes me sad, but can't blame him for it. I'm hoping he'll still keep the Pit as a secondary. Will be interesting to see how the change works out for him, that weekly seems to be a good start.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well Kuro now using Fox is rather poetic considering the recent discussion. It would seem...

Both Pit and Dark Pit suck; use a top tier instead!

 

[The-Technique]

Why neutral getup when she has enough trouble covering aerials off ledge, ledge jump, and ledge roll? There's no real reason to. Spaced dsmash generally only covers getup attack and normal getup so just don't choose those options and you'll never get hit unless she hard reads a roll.

Also feel the need to mention that ZSS is even worse at killing than Bayo and Mario once the opponent passes that tiny % window where Dthrow>Fresh Uair works and actually kills. Her only options are utilt(around 135-140ish no rage) and back air. She functionally has no grab after you pass setup percent and nair will always fail to lead to something.
Dsmash works, but I dunno what you're doing to get hit by a f20 dsmash in neutral at 130.

Super late to reply to this, but something Nairo has been touching on in his recent streams is the whole "never neutral getup against ZSS" thing, and how it just makes it easier for him to read ledge options when opponents stop using one of them all together. The problem that the majority of players have is that they time normal ledge getup very poorly, causing them to get reacted to and punished. It isn't a bad option by any means, just don't get predictable with it (like all options pretty much)

When you describe dsmash that way, it does seem like kind of a cruddy move, but given how consistently Nairo converts dsmash into fsmash/Boost Kick finishers against top players, I can't imagine its that terrible of a kill confirm (or it very well is bad and Nairo is just on a whole different level from other players that he can land it while others fail to do so)

Unrelated tangent, but I remember ZSS used to carry the stigma of being a "braindead" character. Even taking into account her pre-patch days, when I play with this character I can barely wrap my head around how her neutral is played, let alone optimizing all of her offstage and onstage movement options and mixups. This character can move lightning fast but it definitely takes practice to use all of her tools effectively.

 

[Bowserboy3]

when I play with this character I can barely wrap my head around how her neutral is played, let alone optimizing all of her offstage and onstage movement options and mixups. This character can move lightning fast but it definitely takes practice to use all of her tools effectively.

This is so true, especially the part about neutral game. This was by far the biggest hurdle getting over when I was learning ZSS.

But when you realise how good Nair, Bair and Zair are and get good with them it becomes relatively easy. Essentially, spacing is key, like most characters. ZSS is just gifted with incredible movement which allows her to move around her opponent. It's then just utilising this in tandem. It's not just spacing a clear Nair or Bair on shield. It's things like mixing up cross up Bair/Nair, or baiting the opponent into shielding/powershielding and then simply tomahawk grabbing.

Though Zair alone is probably her best neutral tool; converts into grab, and is safe on shield due to range/literally no landing lag.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Something I am surprised has not been brought up yet is how well has been doing vs Bayo as of late. MKLeo has beaten Salem twice convingly using Corrin where both his Cloud and Marth have stuggled in the paat. Salem also lost to Cosmos too at an MSM a while back if I remember.
. Zack also recently lost to Ryuga as well as SSC

I wonder what Corrin has that seems to be giving Bayo so much trouble It Corrin looking to legit do well vs Bayo or is the MU going to go the way of or and become better for Bayo mains once they learn the MU better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

"There is a deadzone on the control stick where you decelerate at a separate rate equal to air friction (except for Ryu, he's coded specially)"

Emblem Lord is going to riot about this

I mean we already knew Ryu has specifically coded limitations meant to hold back his mobility. Finding out how these limitations were implemented is not that serious.

There is a reason why running from Ryu and forcing him to commit is the best action plan against him.

 

[Minordeth]

Something I am surprised has not been brought up yet is how well has been doing vs Bayo as of late. MKLeo has beaten Salem twice convingly using Corrin where both his Cloud and Marth have stuggled in the paat. Salem also lost to Cosmos too at an MSM a while back if I remember.
. Zack also recently lost to Ryuga as well as SSC

I wonder what Corrin has that seems to be giving Bayo so much trouble It Corrin lookijg to be a CP for Bayo or is the MU going to go the way of or and become better for Bayo mains once they learn the MU better.

Nah, Corrin's not a CP to Bayo. MK Leo is just finally learning Bayo a bit better and he happens to be using Corrin. Corrin does have a few things that work where Bayo is weak though:

1.) Pin. Bayo is actually to slow to punish kick-away from the pin, and the max range for Pin is right around where Bayo can't do anything without committing to an option that is largely reactable.

2.) DFS. Nothing like catching landings that allows Corrin to get closer to. You also see Leo use this to punish Heelslide in neutral. This will be less of a factor once Bayo players realize that Heelslide is not a substitute for neutral (looking at you Mistake).

3.) Combos. Corrin has a bunch of short and sweet true combos that do hefty damage and start from her main aerials in Fair and Nair.

4.) Once Corrin players start to really figure out that Nair OOS is pretty gross, life gets better for them.

Other things: Corrin has a fantastic dash to shield and initial dash, which makes microspacing and baiting around Bayo pretty effective. Not many players other than maybe Cosmos and Frozen(?) do this, though.

Hot take: Marth and Cloud are both better for Bayo. Cloud is the king of anything aerial, and Bayo has no safe ground buttons. Which is also why Marth is gross in general. That Dtilt is pretty great.

 

[|RK|]

I know Lima put Marcina and Cloud as Bayo's only losing MUs, so you may be on to something there.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Ziodyne 21
In my opinion Bayo struggles with disjointed moves that outrange her own moves. People focus on Witchtime and grabs alot for the mu but for example Cloud whose considered to be a 55:45 vs bayo doesn't have a good grabgame. I also always tought that Marcina does well vs Bayo.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ziodyne 21
In my opinion Bayo struggles with disjointed moves that outrange her own moves. People focus on Witchtime and grabs alot for the mu but for example Cloud whose considered to be a 55:45 vs bayo doesn't have a good grabgame. I also always tought that Marcina does well vs Bayo.

Lima was the only Bayo user that put them was losing. Most other pro Bayo and Marth maubaput the MU as even at worst for Bayo. Corrin has been doing better vs Bayo than Marcina even when they were at thier peak.

 

[Lord Dio]

sooooo with Kuro......who's gonna bring Pit back to the top now?

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I guess it is down to earth.

You do indeed have to be quite humble to play such a character.

 

[Minordeth]

Lima was the only Bayo user that put them was losing. Most other pro Bayo and Marth maubaput the MU as even at worst for Bayo. Corrin has been doing better vs Bayo than Marcina even when they were at thier peak.

I don't think most top players have any real idea how the Bayo MU really plays out. It's still rapidly evolving. A benefit of Bayo is that she makes a very forgiving game less forgiving, which pushes players to actually be more precise, more safe, and should, in theory, make them actually study the game they play. On the flipslide, at this current transitive state of the meta, Bayo players have been able to get away with really, really dumb and unsafe options because their opponents don't know what they are doing.

An example: Pro Bayo players use heelslide as a neutral tool like it's safe (Mistake literally did this from 2/3 of the stage away, right into Shadow Ball). They still use FHFF and SHFF Nair over the heads of opponents like it's a free button. Players with the most Bayo experience seem to at least have an intuitive understanding of what to do in a given a situation. Look at WaDi vs Mistake for a messy, but demonstrative set of how to bait and punish Bayo.

Edit: You know who Bayo should struggle with? Characters with burst/high mobility, couple with strong ground buttons and anti-airs.

 

[blackghost]

I don't think most top players have any real idea how the Bayo MU really plays out. It's still rapidly evolving. A benefit of Bayo is that she makes a very forgiving game less forgiving, which pushes players to actually be more precise, more safe, and should, in theory, make them actually study the game they play. On the flipslide, at this current transitive state of the meta, Bayo players have been able to get away with really, really dumb and unsafe options because their opponents don't know what they are doing.

An example: Pro Bayo players use heelslide as a neutral tool like it's safe (Mistake literally did this from 2/3 of the stage away, right into Shadow Ball). They still use FHFF and SHFF Nair over the heads of opponents like it's a free button. Players with the most Bayo experience seem to at least have an intuitive understanding of what to do in a given a situation. Look at WaDi vs Mistake for a messy, but demonstrative set of how to bait and punish Bayo.

Edit: You know who Bayo should struggle with? Characters with burst/high mobility, couple with strong ground buttons and anti-airs.

talk about giving away secrets. lol.
Spread th eknowledge man. but i dont think any competent bayo main believes heelslide is safe we just know most players are generally too scared of bayo to actually do anything. (people stil lact like bayo could witch time at any moment which continues to be the biggest fallacy protecting bayo players on the lower end of the spectrum.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I'm personally going to be breaking down the Bayonetta match up for my own sake at some point. I have a few questions to jump off of the two post above.

-What leads to players getting caught by Heel slide most often, and what are my options to both avoid it and play around it?
-What situations are people over respecting witch time and what can be done to circumvent the issue?
-Why should Bayonetta theoretically fear high mobility and burst range?
-What vods should we be watching if we want to learn the Bayonetta match up?
-Any more anti-Bayo secrets to spread?

 

[Illuminose]

Minordeth I was following your post (generally) until I got to this:

Bayo has no safe ground buttons

down tilt is pretty safe on shield when spaced. the shield advantage numbers might fool you into believing it isn't (-7 on drop/-14 on oos), but keep in mind the range and how much bayo shrinks her hurtbox when she does dtilt. there aren't really good oos options out there to punish it, and it's pretty hard to punish a -7 on drop move at a range that most characters don't have a grounded option to hit.

I'm personally going to be breaking down the Bayonetta match up for my own sake at some point. I have a few questions to jump off of the two post above.

-What leads to players getting caught by Heel slide most often, and what are my options to both avoid it and play around it?
-What situations are people over respecting witch time and what can be done to circumvent the issue?
-Why should Bayonetta theoretically fear high mobility and burst range?
-What vods should we be watching if we want to learn the Bayonetta match up?
-Any more anti-Bayo secrets to spread?

1) heel slide usually catches players for hitting too many buttons instead of playing more reactive, aside from catching landings. you avoid it by playing more reactive and knowing what your options are to punish it, as players panic and get hit by heel slide for no reason sometimes.

2) it's hard to overrespect witch time, imo, until you really understand how the opposing bayo is using witch time. many lesser bayos, and even some top bayos, overuse witch time in ways that are fairly predictable and punishable. however, all it takes is not respecting one of those witch times to get punished, so that's the gamble they're taking. if she's really using witch time a lot, keep the timer cooldown in mind because there is a period where she can't witch time and get much of anything off it. on the flip side, a player like salem or 9b only uses witch time sparingly, saving it for the moments where their opponent least expects it. with these players, you don't have to respect witch time as much, but you really do still need to watch out for it in certain situations - they're mostly trying to use it to kill you. you're basically gambling less but they're also leaving fewer opportunities for you to punish.

3) the main reason for bayo to fear characters with high mobility and burst range is that they have an easier time punishing things. for example, if bayo does a bad witch time, they'll be able to react and punish it from a decent range. if she has to land, they might be able to chase dive kick. furthermore, they make it a bit harder for her to just decide 'i don't want to play' and camp, so she's forced to engage with you a little more and leaves more openings. high mobility+burst range doesn't make your bayo mu good or even decent, but it helps.

4) it depends on the character you're looking to use in the matchup. i think tweek is the best player in the world at fighting bayo, but he's also playing the closest thing she has to a losing matchup. players like tweek, void, and leo recently should give you good footage showing how you deal with bayo stuff, though.

5) it's not just sdi - you need to know how to di stuff like up b side b up b and stuff like that so it doesn't hit you (or at least convert into death). myolinir's guide in this forum has a lot of stuff so look at that.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

When you guys talk about Zero Suit Samus's down smash and I think of the Nairo matches I've watch, to me it seems like he fishes for the down smash a lot (looks like spamming to me), and his opponents freak out with spot dodges and rolls. Whenever I see this I just think of holding magnet and getting free heals if he were to that vs me.

Like, problem solved.

Edit: Ever since I first saw vods of Bayonetta players getting away with full screen heel slides and heel slide kick 2 on shielded or aerial opponents trying to punish them I was baffled. Now seeing them STILL get away with these habits now is hilarious.
I wish I would fight a Bayonetta in bracket; if they ever try to heel slide at me from a distance, I'll happily meet them with a tether grab, f-tilt, pk fire, or an f-smash of my choosing.

I also agree with playing reactive, I believe that players I watch (love watching pools matches) try to hard to be the player that gets the first button out on screen.

 

[Locke 06]

Heelslide can be safe. Wtf. I hate you smashboards.

"Learn the matchup. Heelslide is so unsafe!"

"Heelslide has decreased endlag if it hits a shield. Instead of being -49, it's ambiguously between that and -25 on shield as she moves through you, so OoS options don't work sometimes and you're too far away to punish a 18f window after shield drop (or 22f window if you try and dash grab)."

"Heelslide has decreased endlag after hitting a shield? Ohh, that's why I can spotdodge everyone's grab and convert into a full combo."

 

[MercuryPenny]

When you guys talk about Zero Suit Samus's down smash and I think of the Nairo matches I've watch, to me it seems like he fishes for the down smash a lot (looks like spamming to me), and his opponents freak out with spot dodges and rolls. Whenever I see this I just think of holding magnet and getting free heals if he were to that vs me.

Like, problem solved.

down smash definitely isn't an energy projectile

even if it was, the endlag on zss' down smash is significantly lower than psi magnet, so your opponent would get a free punish that would outdo the damage you healed anyway

 

[Minordeth]

I'm personally going to be breaking down the Bayonetta match up for my own sake at some point. I have a few questions to jump off of the two post above.

-What leads to players getting caught by Heel slide most often, and what are my options to both avoid it and play around it?

Okay, most players don't know frame data, and most of them don't look at hitbox data. Bayonetta has a range, about one and a half of her body lengths, that within it you can't react to her options, and staying just outside of it forces her to commit to something. That "something" and the level of commitment is going to vary by character and their options.

For instance, heel slide is frame 15. If Bayo is at that aforementioned distance, she can shoot some bullets (block and punish), ABK (duck, literally), or heel slide (reactable). Every other non-special option she has, dash in, dash attack, jump in, requires extra frames and she is slow.

The basic rule of thumb is, know her options and don't be caught pressing buttons.

-What situations are people over respecting witch time and what can be done to circumvent the issue?

Witch time is really powerful, obviously. But it also has about 30 frames of recovery. Basically, if they initiate it, they have to wait nearly a second to do another action. For now, Bayo's are using it to cover landings, which they get away with because no one wants to be witch timed. It's not a get out of punishment free card tho, even Bats Within can do more harm than good if they are caught using it as a crutch.

-Why should Bayonetta theoretically fear high mobility and burst range?

Because they can hang out in that zone I was talking about and punish Bayo's options, especially if she tries to force an approach with Bullett Climax. If they also have a projectile that's even better. Bayo shouldn't be able to camp these characters, basically.

-What vods should we be watching if we want to learn the Bayonetta match up?

Ninjalink's twitch is honestly the best resource for both Bayo counter play, and just being a better competitor. As for matches:

Wadi vs Mistake from SSC - sloppy but demonstrably shows how to punish the most common Bayo stuff.

WaDi vs Any Bayo. He's not perfect, by far, but by virtue of location he has a massive amount of Bayo experience and it's slowly starting to produce results on the national level.

Dabuz vs Captain Zack - probably the Civil War semis. You can see how unsafe even something like dABK is when the opponent anticipates it. When he was on, Dabuz was just anti-airing everything. Zack couldn't even get away with Fair 1 on shield.

-Any more anti-Bayo secrets to spread?

The number one habit I see, and used to do, even when players have the punish, they go for a grab. This isn't just because of fear of witch time. Top players do this all the time when a more optimal punish would easily seal the stock. When you see Mr. R go for a grab on a death percent Bayo rather than a Usmash, you know autopilot mode is engaged.

Don't let that happen to you. Bayo especially lives on players auto piloting.

 

[TDK]

down smash definitely isn't an energy projectile

even if it was, the endlag on zss' down smash is significantly lower than psi magnet, so your opponent would get a free punish that would outdo the damage you healed anyway

Down smash doesn't look like it, but it is able to be absorbed, and it is an energy projectile. Can't reflect it though. Sorry Mario mains.

Also, you can do stuff like this out of magnet:

PSA: Just came to realize that you can still JCUS OOM from a ledgejump as long as youre fast enough to get a grounded PSI Magnet. Have fun! pic.twitter.com/kB2MnxJlH6

— Magnetgoat (@itsamagnetgoat) August 14, 2017

Also, this is a thing:

 

[Minordeth]

Illuminose - yeah, Dtilt is reasonably safe. I should have clarified, in the context of Marth, it's not quite as effective. I'll have to retest the range, tho.

Locke 06 - it can be safe, in a mix up sort of way. I'm not saying it's the most unsafe thing in the world here. But it can be reacted to, and it can be stuffed. It's not safe to throw it out like Mistake or Lima or occasionally Salem do. It's safety, more than anything else, due to the startup, is absolutely dependent on spacing.

 

[Lord Dio]

When you guys talk about Zero Suit Samus's down smash and I think of the Nairo matches I've watch, to me it seems like he fishes for the down smash a lot (looks like spamming to me)

It's because it's great for catching rolls and getups, and sets uo for a kill move. You can see in one match ZeRo uses normal getup, and is hit by d smash. Funnily enough, ESAM said in his zss guide to never do normal getup against her.

 

[TDK]

SCR Saga pools are out! 6 people advance per pool, with 2 through winners and 4 in losers. Then, the two winners of the pool fight each other in top 48.

B1: ZeRo vs K9Sbruce and Falln vs Samsora , Tyrant and Sandstorm in losers
B2: Salem vs Takera and Captain Zack vs JK , Lui$ and Mr. Con Con in losers
B3: Nairo vs Aarvark and Fatality vs Lima , Skorpio and Phoenix in losers
B4: Mr. R vs Rich Brown and Komorikiri vs Zenyou , Venom and Stroder in losers

C1: MKLeo vs Ac and Ally vs Locus , Razo and SS in losers
C2: VoiD vs Chanshu and Mistake vs Charliedaking , Exodia and Zan in losers
C3: Tweek vs TLTC and ANTi vs Kameme , Captain L and Saiki in losers (Ven is also in this pool)
C4: Larry Lurr vs Luhtie and Abadango vs Eon , PiXL and Dunkmaster Ragna in losers

 

[Nah]

Something I am surprised has not been brought up yet is how well has been doing vs Bayo as of late. MKLeo has beaten Salem twice convingly using Corrin where both his Cloud and Marth have stuggled in the paat. Salem also lost to Cosmos too at an MSM a while back if I remember.
. Zack also recently lost to Ryuga as well as SSC

I wonder what Corrin has that seems to be giving Bayo so much trouble It Corrin looking to legit do well vs Bayo or is the MU going to go the way of or and become better for Bayo mains once they learn the MU better.

It's more likely to be the latter if you ask me.

I still maintain the stance that the community in general has yet to truly figure out how to fight the character and that when people do, opinions about Corrin won't be so optimistic.

4.) Once Corrin players start to really figure out that Nair OOS is pretty gross, life gets better for them.

explain to me

not saying I agree or disagree, just want to hear more on why you think this

 

[jet56]

SCR Saga pools are out! 6 people advance per pool, with 2 through winners and 4 in losers. Then, the two winners of the pool fight each other in top 48.

B1: ZeRo vs K9Sbruce and Falln vs Samsora , Tyrant and Sandstorm in losers
B2: Salem vs Takera and Captain Zack vs JK , Lui$ and Mr. Con Con in losers
B3: Nairo vs Aarvark and Fatality vs Lima , Skorpio and Phoenix in losers
B4: Mr. R vs Rich Brown and Komorikiri vs Zenyou , Venom and Stroder in losers

C1: MKLeo vs Ac and Ally vs Locus , Razo and SS in losers
C2: VoiD vs Chanshu and Mistake vs Charliedaking , Exodia and Zan in losers
C3: Tweek vs TLTC and ANTi vs Kameme , Captain L and Saiki in losers (Ven is also in this pool)
C4: Larry Lurr vs Luhtie and Abadango vs Eon , PiXL and Dunkmaster Ragna in losers

Interesting things to Note:

AZ's top 4 players Saiki, SS , Stroder, and Luhtie, as well as other strong representatives (ezreal, wulfn, Coco,Skylar) will be in attendance. This can be a huge chance for AZ to showcase it's strength, as all these players have very solid wins (coco over JK at rise 2017, wulfn over tearbear, ezreal over Xxax at genesis saga and placing 25th and the rest having already made names for themselves from their visits to socal and other majors)
Im actually quite interested with how AZ was seeded (Luhtie seeded for 25th, saiki ss and stro seeded for 33rd, wufln coco skylar and ezreal seeded for loser's semis of their pool). Luhtie was seeded higher despite being 4 on AZ PR over his other AZ brethern. perhaps due to his performance at majors?

Utah also has some strong players going (bestness#!, Pixl #3, Calculus #6). done very well at some regionals in AZ and around the southwest.

 

[Laken64]

The amount of people that even bother comparing ladders to 's shows that none of you have any idea how ZSS works.
Her ladders are insanely specific(outside of raw uair) against most of the cast and give the opponent plenty of room for counterplay.

Not Bayonetta-like counterplay where you can get out and MAYBE punish after taking 40, but ACTUAL hard counterplay where you can get out after eating 20% and potentially just kill her for it.

Play the character yourself and you'll come to appreciate just how impressive it is that Nairo can land grabs AT ALL against players like ZeRo and Mr. R. I've been using her to potentially replace Diddy and come to wonder how the hell Nairo makes things work against top level reps of half the top tiers.

Just wondering but what you do think of Choco's ZSS compared to Nario and Marss? He plays at a patient pace compared to them both and he seems to hit and know his confirms more than the U.S ZSS (Nair Flip kick, Zair confirms ect.) not to mention he actually uses side b which Nick riddle says is a underrated move. Do you think his way of playing ZSS is efficient compared to Nairo and Marss?

 

[Lord Dio]

Fatality vs Lima

Wasn't it a few weeks ago after LTC5 that someone said Lima gets away with more than he should? I would honestly love to see Fatality punish those things. The pre-EVO video karma has lasted too long.