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Alternate End was a special tournament that banned DLC characters. IDK if it should count for the ranking project (iirc it doesn't count for the Chicago PR).[
1st: NiTe
2nd: PowPow
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Panda Bair
Why ban all DLC? Only Bayo and Cloud would make sense, and that's obviously going on a HUGE stretch.
Bayonetta won't usually kill you at random percents unless you're really poor at the MU. Also, Bayo's edgeguarding is typically strongest at exhausting resources - less so at directly killing the opponent (but she does that too at times). Lucario has to be put into the blastzone, or he's usually not going to die.
Yes, due to that very fact that characters were omitted from competing that are otherwise legal at every other tournament and players like Tyroy obviously could not use his primary character and if Ned wanted to compete he was basically out of luck without Coud. It was confirmed in the Chicago Smash 4 group it wasn't a PR eligible event due to these reasons and thus won't effect their PR stats. Very odd Dreamland was legal in a DLC-less tourney, though, you'd think they'd go the whole mile with that and keep it banned for this particular event...oh well.
NairWizard
.This is interesting. Why so?
Interesting stuff to think about I suppose.
I think Sheik wins bc of how smothering she can be in neutral and advantage, but Smash is a player v player game first and foremost so Sheik players can get read and give openings and Lucario has massive punishes on Sheik if she cannot secure the kill, which happens to pretty much every Sheik but Void is better at killing early.
is considered around even now, and Bayo mains have been adapting and getting better vs other previous MU people though were suspect such as also seem even at worst. and she slightly beats ....maybe and maybe but the advantage heavily depends on the stage . has been said to beat Bayo in theory. But there has been so few recorded sets in the MU it's hard to say for sure.
developing into a troublesome MU for Bayonetta, especially if they all start playing it the way Dabuz plays it.is not a winning MU it once was. It's even at worst, and I personally feel Cloud has enough going with him to beat her.should be doing pretty well against Bayonetta. Sheik is the perfect character to get easily combo'd and killed early by Bayonetta stuff however, which can skew how things should go. On paper, Sheik has the tools to out neutral Bayonetta, as well as outcamp her (needles).is troublesome if you don't camp. If you play dumb by combining camping, utilising platforms (so banning FD), and forcing him to come to you, I feel he's manageable. It's a similar story for . Don't overcommit, just play it steady, and get the lead. Make him come to you and there's not a while lot he can do to you in general. It's when you're forced to go in yourself for the kill that it becomes an issue (overall bad approach options = easily shielded into Bthrow).will always be an iffy one if just because of Fair chaining him off stage, but that aside, Fox actually has more than enough to contest with Bayonetta himself. He is arguably one of the best top tiers at punishing her for making a wrong move (be it a poor landing after a dropped combo, or a missed Witch Time), thanks to his sheer speed and power with Up Smash. I'd also say that Fox has developed one of the most too, like Cloud, and I can honestly see this MU as more even these days. has the tools and options to beat Bayonetta good enough. In recent times, Diddy players not knowing how to deal with Bayonetta (thinks back to MVD vs Zack) and just barely losing (ZeRo vs Salem) may have shifted general opinion into thinking it's now even, but I still believe Diddy has enough in his tank to deal with her.,,,,, though might be a minor disadvantage on paper, but as Locus proved in that set I showed previously, it's more than do-able.(though I will admit that if we see enough of Diddy losing, could be even)and, but I can't form a proper opinion on these tbh. Pretty much every other character in the game though, Bayonetta should be beating to varying degrees IMO.Toon Link was considered a tough matchup for prepatch Bayo, back when Hyuga was still competing a lot. Now since Hyuga is back maybe well get to see how the matchup plays out for real
Not going to bother with ratios, but...
If I'm being brutally honest, I could see
Bayonetta has some good moves for getting rid of Luma, but they're all easily shielded or put Bayonetta in a position where she can absolutely be punished for attempting, be it by something committal like a Smash or Uair, or non-committal like a simple grab.
I have personally been having issues in this MU too. What's more, I have also been struggling less and less vs Bayonetta as Rosalina myself (though part of that could be due to me just becoming better with Rosalina after talking with/getting help from some of her UK top players).
Though in terms of other MU's, I definitely think
I also think that
And I still think that
And honestly, I don't think ANY of the top tier characters outright lose to her. I feel like they can all do enough when played correctly to at least keep up with her; this includes the likes of
So, in short, my opinions on Bayonetta's Top Tier MU's:
Minor (+Potential) Disadvantage:
Even:
Minor Advantage:
Non top tier characters that notably good against her include the likes of
struggles a lot with bayo's evasive capabilities, often finding difficulty even landing hits presuming that the bayo commits to a defensive gameplan. bayo has an unparalleled ability to essentially ignore mario's footsies and escape his pressure by abusing platform camping, planking, and general defensive spacing with her large hitboxes to combat mario's poor range and average mobility. mario doesn't have a disjointed poke or projectile to play wth safely against bayonetta; he has to commit to finding some way into bayonetta's space. i honestly believe that this matchup could be as bad as 6-4 if the bayonetta plays optimally, but it's at least a slight advantage for her. mario's combination of survivability and punish game give him the ability to win in the long game if he manages to land the hits he needs, but it's just so hard to land those hits in the first place because bayonetta has arguably the best pure defense in the cast. it's also risky to poke at bayo on platforms because mario can't really kill her for doing witch time, meaning she has no reason not to go for witch times that could result in mario's death. there's also a significant strike to mario's survivability in that bayonetta is one of the best characters at edgeguarding mario.would do so much better against bayonetta if it weren't for his large frame and light weight. the fact of the matter is, though, mewtwo gets abused pretty hard by bayo, even though his projectile and overall defensive kit give him a solid neutral. if mewtwo plays the strong keepaway game and can avoid getting hit, he does a really good job against bayonetta, especially because he doesn't have much trouble killing her consistently. the issue is that bayonetta's punishes on him are borderline unfair. he gets comboed almost as bad as heavies (sdi doesn't necessarily help him escape) without the weight to survive uair and bair for a decent amount of time. his weight+size combo is so bad in this mu that i can't see it as even; he doesn't win neutral enough overall to compensate.really seems to just get outclassed by bayo - it's not a good matchup for her at all. she's used to struggling against good neutrals, and she does in this matchup with the combination of bayo's really low crouch, effective anti-airs, and good burst escape options, but there's another big issue - she has a worse punish game. zss loses neutral and loses the punish game, so how does she even up this matchup? she has to rely on punish game with less room to make mistakes than her opponent, which is just a losing battle. the best thing zss has going for her is that she doesn't really get camped, but bayonetta has the ability to shut down her options regardless of this. we've seen this come to fruition at top level play in the numerous dominating encounters salem has had with nairo. nairo is not even remotely bad at fighting bayo, but salem abuses zss's weakness in brutal fashion. aside from a solitary 0-3 defeat at ceo, salem has dominated nairo throughout this year, with two 3-0 wins and two 3-1 wins. this matchup is bad on paper and has been shown to be brutal for zero suit at top level on numerous occasions.vs bayo will never be even no matter how much fox players push it unless he learns some magical way to escape guaranteed combos. fox is one of the best characters at pressuring bayo and punishing her for picking the wrong options, but the punish game is far too dumb. it's sort of like how sheik definitely beats fox despite the fact that he has a lot going for him in neutral and punishes himself; one hit can easily lead to death. this matchup will look worse as bayonetta players remember how to do the (guaranteed) forward air string on fox that they aren't executing consistently right now. fox cannot just expect to win neutral and play perfectly because a lot of the things he does in neutral to find openings are inherently commitments that bayo can capitalize on.beating bayo is an idea i've floated before based on dabuz's success, but ultimately i concluded that dabuz is just really good at the matchup. this is reinforced to me by the fact that dabuz still says the matchup is even despite his prowess in it, and not top bayo or rosa player says the matchup is worse than even for bayo. if you break down the actual sets, dabuz makes a ton of small good decisions when fighting bayo, to the point where it's very obvious that he's outplaying his opponent. couple that with the relatively small sample size of sets, especially in recent months, i'm just not convinced that dabuz's dominance in the matchup shows more of rosa's prowess in the matchup than his own skill in the matchup, especially seeing how much the other top rosas tend to struggle with bayonetta. i'd need a really strong argument based on rosa's options and how she deals with bayous counterplay to believe that this matchup is in rosa's favor.has never, at any point, had a winning matchup against bayonetta. bayonetta players have been doing well against diddy for much longer than evo, including 2 past wins over the best diddy kong (zero) by salem himself in september of last year. as bayo players across the board have improved at the matchup, results that seemed to favor diddy kong at some point have all but evaporated. salem, captain zack, mistake, and 9b (those are the main ones) have gone head-to-head with numerous top diddy kong players and either come out on top or had very close sets on nearly all occasions. diddy is essentially forced to play a war of attrition against bayo because he can't really force her to do anything. the risk/reward on hitting buttons and pursuing bayo is really bad, so diddy is forced to play a long defensive game. as we've seen, bayonetta absolutely has the options to apply pressure to diddy kong, and severely outrewards him to the point where it doesn't matter if she gets hit a few times when trying to approach. i've played and watched this matchup so many times that i can't see diddy winning it at all.is one of the best characters at fighting bayo because she is one of the few characters that can both apply pressure and play safely against bayo. sheik's speed, projectile, and solid grab game give her solid options to deal with bayo. i actually think the biggest issue with this matchup is that sheik doesn't have enough good stages. if sheik could consistently play on fd or town, she'd beat bayonetta. the issue is that you only get one of these picks per set unless the bayonetta player lets you. sheik is really bad at dealing with bayonetta's platform camping, to the point where winning on a tri plat stage is really hard. you'd think smashville is good for sheik, but she can make a lot of use of the platform there as well. lylat is obviously a good bayonetta stage, but in his set against salem, void pretty much ran out of options and was either forced to deal with lylat bayo or bayo on smashville.has the best matchup in the game against bayo and is probably by far the closest character to beating her. cloud's combination of large, noncommittal disjoints and mobility give him uniquely effective options to fight her in neutral and create an actual advantage state against her. this is another matchup i've played a lot, and it's true that cloud has a lot of strengths. the reason i (and most cloud players) hesitate to say that cloud actually wins is that his disadvantage state leaves too much open against bayo. she can be losing for extended periods of time, but she gets so much out of her overall advantage state and edgeguarding that it takes very consistent and careful play to maintain an advantage against bayonetta. it's simple to say 'just edgeguard cloud', but in most matchups his general advantages in neutral and polarizing advantage state make it very difficult to put him in that position. bayonetta has consistent setups to hit cloud offstage from anywhere on the stage and eliminate his stocks, even if he has limit recovery online. she doesn't even do that bad in neutral if she plays patiently around cloud's options and goes for safe pokes. if bayo loses a matchup, it's this one, but i really think it's just even.
As JK said it's tsu being too aggressive in the MU, this was also mentioned above but if lucario is patient and plays more of a reactive role in the MU and is aware on how to DI/SDI her combos he's almost always going to live past 100% and at that point it becomes much easier to exploit her rather mediocre approach game (remember guys poor approach =/= poor neutral) with aura sphere and wave-bounce force palm flames.
Who are you to criticize better players, mate?
If you have to be better than the people who you're criticizing/offering tips to on their play, explain to me why in god's name would the best players in smash would ever think about having a coach go ahead I'll wait.
Only because knowledge?
It's possible to see what better players are getting punished for while still acknowledging the fact that they're better players.
I don't have to be a chef to know if a dish is bad.
A few things which are unsafe on hit. side-B, f-tilt, interrupted (landing) multi hit aerials.
All these are just game mechanics. I know he's not the only one to have low-percent tilts be punishable on hit, and the aerials are mainly a result of Pit having rather poor landing lag numbers.
I can name one character who has a move that is punishable even if it kills
i think people need to realize if a move is stale it's less safe on shield...or am i just stupid spouting nonsense LOL
— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) August 1, 2017
Less safe doesn't mean it still isn't safe. Range, disjoint, and shield pushback are also things to consider.
Sure, but the extra few frames you get when a Mario has usmashed your shield after using it seven times in a row could be the difference between getting a stock or resetting to neutral.
So thats why sometimes I can dash attack Mario upsmash oos sometimes and other times I get blown away.
