Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Das Koopa]

JULY DATA

Diddy Kong +1%
Sheik +0.9%
Fox +0.6%
Donkey Kong +0.5%
Bayonetta +0.4%
Rosalina & Luma +0.4%
Pikachu +0.3%
Sonic +0.2%
Mario +0.2%
Corrin +0.2%
Other +0.2%
Peach +0.2%
Ryu +0.1%
R.O.B. +0.1%
Ness = 1.8%
Luigi = 1.7%
Bowser = 1.4%
Toon Link -0.1%
Marth -0.2%
Villager -0.2%
Greninja -0.2%
Lucina -0.3%
Captain Falcon -0.3%
Olimar -0.4%
Mega Man -0.4%
Lucas -0.4%
Zero Suit Samus -0.5%
Mewtwo -0.5%
Meta Knight -0.7%
Cloud -0.8%

Spoiler: Full Results July

Bayonetta: 516
Diddy Kong: 510
Cloud: 410
Sheik: 344
Sonic: 313.5
Fox: 296
Mario: 295
Rosalina & Luma: 242
Zero Suit Samus: 236
Ryu: 179.5
Mewtwo: 169
Corrin: 127
Mega Man: 119
Meta Knight: 116.5
Donkey Kong: 113
Pikachu: 112
Peach: 107.5
Ness: 102.5
Captain Falcon: 100
Marth: 97.5
Luigi: 96
Villager: 92.5
Bowser: 82
Greninja: 81.5
Lucina: 66.5
Toon Link: 64.5
Olimar: 63.5
Lucas: 62.5
R.O.B.: 62
Samus: 52.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Lucario: 46.5
Yoshi: 43.5
Little Mac: 42
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 29
Wario: 26.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Charizard: 25.5
Link: 22.5
Pac-Man: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

Spoiler: Phase 4-5 Combined

Cloud: 1042.5
Diddy Kong: 1029.5
Bayonetta: 1028.5
Sheik: 791
Fox: 644.5
Sonic: 592.5
Mario: 582.5
Rosalina & Luma: 472.5
Zero Suit Samus: 471.5
Mewtwo: 368.5
Ryu: 348.5
Marth: 277.5
Meta Knight: 263
Corrin: 244
Captain Falcon: 242.5
Mega Man: 228
Donkey Kong: 219.5
Peach: 217
Ness: 213
Luigi: 209.5
Villager: 205
Pikachu: 204
Greninja: 178
Olimar: 166
Toon Link: 161
Lucina: 148.5
Bowser: 146
R.O.B.: 141
Lucario: 139
Duck Hunt: 110.5
Lucas: 106.5
Samus: 90
Mr. Game & Watch: 89.5
Robin: 80.5
Pit: 78.5
Shulk: 74.5
Yoshi: 72.5
Ike: 68
Link: 61.5
Little Mac: 60.5
Roy: 59.5
Wario: 58.5
Charizard: 53.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 44.5
Pac-Man: 37
Palutena: 32.5
Falco: 23
Dark Pit: 16.5
King Dedede: 13.5
Mii Brawler: 12.5
Ganondorf: 11
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Dr. Mario: 7
Zelda: 7
Bowser Jr.: 5
Kirby: 2
Mii Gunner: 1
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xANyxbGsV8-JKT4PHyrIKbveXVqL93Y0Leb0NALmAsY/edit

Previous Month(s): https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-117#post-21792526

 

[Frihetsanka]

Corrin #12. Interesting.

Cloud #3. I remember a year ago or so a lot of people argued that Cloud was not top 5 and would eventually be figured out and would fall down to maybe #6-8. Do people still believe this, or do most people now believe that Cloud is a top 5 character?

Also, I've said it before, Fox is underrated by many. I think he could be top 6, potentially.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Corrin #12. Interesting.

Cloud #3. I remember a year ago or so a lot of people argued that Cloud was not top 5 and would eventually be figured out and would fall down to maybe #6-8. Do people still believe this, or do most people now believe that Cloud is a top 5 character?

Also, I've said it before, Fox is underrated by many. I think he could be top 6, potentially.

Isnt Cloud considered by many to be among the very best of tbe best right up tberewith Bayo, Sheik and Diddy. Rosa and Fox are looking good candidates for #5-6

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Poor Kirby doesn't even have a point, also Shulk mains please go to tournaments again lol.


Also Ness is still holding top 20 which is just fantastic.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Corrin #12. Interesting.

Cloud #3. I remember a year ago or so a lot of people argued that Cloud was not top 5 and would eventually be figured out and would fall down to maybe #6-8. Do people still believe this, or do most people now believe that Cloud is a top 5 character?

Also, I've said it before, Fox is underrated by many. I think he could be top 6, potentially.

If you want something easy on the eyes, I made this:
(January 1st - July 31st, thanks a bunch Das Koopa for the data, you're a hero as always)

• It's safe to say that Cloud is unquestionably top 5 based on results, and, in my opinion, a probable top 3 character. He gets results at all levels of play.
• Fox is actually 5th so far, results-wise.
• It's important to take context into account when considering character's results thus far.

-----

Something I'd like to point out, is that, since the beginning of this year, about 12% (Top 7) of characters got about 50% of the total results, and about 38% (Top 21 or 22) of characters get about 80% of results

(Villager and Pikachu are 21 and 22, respectively, and they're only separated by 1 point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

Take this graph and statement as you will. I'm not the best with analysis.

 

[toonito]

feelsbadman
& are very close for number 1 in July as well as combined Phase 4 and 5.
number 3 in July but still #1 overall.

dat 200 point gap between & are clear top 3

are clear top tier withfighting for the last spot. Results wise been a top 10 character over the summer while trailing at 11 overall

is #12 (July) and #14 overall. another character who somehow crept into high tier.

as always great work Das Koopa

 

[Lord Dio]

Rosalina's 8th on that chart is incredibly interesting to look at, considering she's won an S Tier and an A tier and consistently gets top 8s.
I wonder why this is.....

 

[Pyrover]

I always see Corrin doing really well on these charts, and obviously she has to be getting results somewhere for that to happen, but I don't really get what makes this character good.

She has an excellent advantage state for sure, primarily through juggling, and her range is definitely enough push a lot of matchups into favorable territory, and Dragon Lunge is as crazy as always, but I'm not really seeing how she does so well. The character is completely lacking in safe options outside of back air, with literally all of her other normal being punishable on shield at maximum range. Her recovery is hard to mess with but doesn't get much distance. Her mobility isn't a liability but it's nothing to write home about. Her grabs are really only good for her eventual kill throw. Her projectile is honestly really bad. What makes this character do so well? How can someone with such an unsafe neutral do so well? Corrin has always struck me as a strong mid tier, so obviously I must be missing something, unless her players are secretly just really good.

 

[RonNewcomb]

All these are just game mechanics. I know he's not the only one to have low-percent tilts be punishable on hit, and the aerials are mainly a result of Pit having rather poor landing lag numbers.

I know, but I don't care why it is so, I just want it fixed. What's a swordie with unsafe tilts, a flyer who lands harder than a gorilla?

Apologies to for calling him Cpt Falcon with a sword -- we should've said Pit.

 

[Krysco]

I know, but I don't care why it is so, I just want it fixed. What's a swordie with unsafe tilts, a flyer who lands harder than a gorilla?

Apologies to for calling him Cpt Falcon with a sword -- we should've said Pit.

Even that seems a bit disingenuous. Pit's fair and bair have 20 frames of landing lag while the other 3 aerials have 24. The only aerial Roy has with that sort of landing lag is his dair with 23 frames (next worse is bair with 16) and Falcon has 30 frames from his fair and 21 from his dair. The other 3 are 12 or less.

As for unsafe tilts, Pit's are way worse than either Falcon's or Roy's. Pit's ftilt, dtilt and utilt are -16/-15 (tipper), -13 and -26 on shield drop respectively while Falcon's are -8, -9 and -7 and Roy's are -10/-7, -2/+1 and -19-17. Second numbers being the base hits.

Roy's closer to Falcon in both regards since Pit's numbers are just that bad.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Going to average out VoiD's kill percents across all YT sets at DHATL.
Like before, I'll show the % they were at both before and after the hit/string/combo killed.
Post should be done within the night or so. May do the same for Mr. R and Vinnie if I have time.
Going to personally note the characters Sheik has trouble killing as well.

 

[Das Koopa]

Rosalina's 8th on that chart is incredibly interesting to look at, considering she's won an S Tier and an A tier and consistently gets top 8s.
I wonder why this is.....

brief comparison of playerbases using phase 5 data between fox/rosa

24
-Dabuz
-Kirihara
-Falln
-Xaltis
-Rayquaza07
-Atelier
-UtopianRay
-Crazycolorz5
-Tatuman
-DOOM!
-9Tails
-Midnight
-Homika
-SpaceMario
-Eldin
-Yuzu
-Karinole
-Vanitas
-DanGR
-RosaGetsFit
-embryo
-MyLife
-C. Falcon

Secondary: 6
Dan
Vinnie
Abadango
PokePen
Winks
Sim-Max

35
-Larry Lurr
-Charliedaking
-ZD
-Eon
-Xzax
-Ghost
-NAKAT
-Light
-Tension
-Jill
-ThisGuy
-colinies
-Wusi
-Dr. Ainuss
-Con
-Kenta
-iModerz
-Thundersz
-JaySon
-Fwed
-El Pitika
-Freye
-dekillsage
-Comet
-Keen
-Patrino
-Yuno
-Xyro
-Bishly
-Cougycougs
-Woker the Hero
-Mace
-GrimTurtle
-Candy
-Cali

Secondary: 13
VoiD
WormyNugget
Griffith
Shinkou
Scr7
Luckywinds
Ralphie
Lee
Duon
Kai
Stroder
Braixen
Eternal

Bigger install base, better regional performances, etc.

Trend is generally the same with other characters - more common, or their playerbases () are way more consistent at results output. Sonic & Rosa have the same playerbase number but more than 4-5 Sonic players do well in better regions.

 

[Rizen]

sorry for the lack of caps; wrist problems. :/

my thoughts on the phase 4 and 5 combined scores:


Cloud: 1042.5
Diddy Kong: 1029.5
Bayonetta: 1028.5
.....there are many characters who can beat cloud and bayo but their risk/reward ratio is what keeps them on top. diddy's the only character proven to be on par with them.
Sheik: 791
.....sheik is extremely capable, more than the above characters, but she has a harder time winning. even top players can't play like a tas. the character who has an easier time winning comes out on top, which is why clutch factors are important.
Fox: 644.5
Sonic: 592.5
.....anyone who thinks sonic is underrated needs to watch ken play, lol.
Mario: 582.5
Rosalina & Luma: 472.5
.....imo rosa and fox are 5th and 6th.
Zero Suit Samus: 471.5
Mewtwo: 368.5
Ryu: 348.5
.....ryu's just shy of top tiers. his weaknesses are real but his strengths are better.
Marth: 277.5
.....marth>lucina even after the lucy boom. they play similar enough i wouldn't mind them parred tho.
Meta Knight: 263
Corrin: 244
Captain Falcon: 242.5
.....don't doubt the captain.
Mega Man: 228
Donkey Kong: 219.5
.....dk>bowser. clutch kills are very relevant in the meta.
Peach: 217
Ness: 213
.....ness>lucas. lucas has good zoning and is better rounded but ness' extremes are better. here's the clutch factor again.
Luigi: 209.5
.....imo should be higher.
Villager: 205
Pikachu: 204
Greninja: 178
Olimar: 166
Toon Link: 161
Lucina: 148.5
.....too low.
Bowser: 146
R.O.B.: 141
Lucario: 139
.....too low.
Duck Hunt: 110.5
.....imo link is better than dh but dh consistently places higher. i should reevaluate.
Lucas: 106.5
Samus: 90
.....told you samus would jump over link/shulk.
Mr. Game & Watch: 89.5
Robin: 80.5
Pit: 78.5
Shulk: 74.5
Yoshi: 72.5
Ike: 68
.....for all their meh, ike and pit are cemented in mid tier. they're just too good to be low tier.
Link: 61.5
.....link had his day in the sun but has to work hard to win. it shows even lower mid-tiers can do well in extremely stacked tournaments like civil war. marveleatyourheartout.
Little Mac: 60.5
Roy: 59.5
Wario: 58.5
Charizard: 53.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 44.5
Pac-Man: 37
Palutena: 32.5
Falco: 23
Dark Pit: 16.5
.....should be parred with pit
King Dedede: 13.5
Mii Brawler: 12.5
Ganondorf: 11
.....interesting to see ganon over bowser jr, dr.mario. he's mr.read the opponent to win.
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Dr. Mario: 7
.....too low. maybe because he's the worse mario?
Zelda: 7
Bowser Jr.: 5
Kirby: 2
.....too low, what's the deal?
Mii Gunner: 1
Mii Swordfighter: 0

 

[FeelMeUp]

As an added bonus, I threw in the percents VoiD died at when they were available.
vs Russky: https://youtu.be/KIqhzDN2yS4
Final Destination
- Jabbed out of barrels at 11%
- Forward Throw > Up Smash. Initially grabbed at 85%, but died after the hit at 115%
VoiD then went Fox for Battlefield(he and most Sheiks dislike fighting Diddy here) so there's no data for that.
VoiD's death percents were: 59%(SD)


vs MVD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V48hbCkYT5M
Lylat Cruise
- Down Tilt > Up Air starting at 130% and killing at 143%
- Forward Smash connecting off an onstage Barrel punish at 125% but killing at 139%
Town and City
- Back Throw > Uair. MVD was grabbed at 120% and died off the top at 140%
Final Destination
- Up Air Connected at 111% and killed at 118%
- Back Air > Forward Smash. Bair connected at 111% and MVD died at 129%
VoiD's death percents were: 180%(Fair), 169%(Up Smash), 202%(Up Air)


vs Whiskey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmgAQdLvl0
Smashville
- Forward Throw > Stuff. Initially grabbed at 26% after a tilt combo from 5% and died to SV Sheik cheese at 57%.
- Needles > Bouncing Fish at 119%. Falcon died at 138%
Town and City
- Down Tilt > Up Smash starting at 76% and ending at 97%
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 128% and ending at 145%
VoiD's death percents were: 95%(SD) and 94%(Raptor Boost)


vs Ally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TWi_BokQqU
Final Destination
- Vanish connected at 78% and killed at 90%
- Forward Tilt > Up Air starting at 113% and killing at 120%
Final Destination
- Up Air > Down Smash starting at 138% and ending at 150%
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 96% and ending at 113%
Final Destination
- Neutral Air > Up Smash starting at 98% and ending at 118%
Town and City
- Soft Down Throw > Up Air 50/50 starting at 118% and ending at 134%
- Jab2 > Down Tilt > Uair starting at 133% and ending at 151%
VoiD's death percents were: 152%(Forced Error, not necessarily an SD), 146%(Up Smash), 123%(Up Smash), 132%(Back Throw)


vs Samsora: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxgFOZ9YD9o
Final Destination
- Neutral Air > Bouncing Fish starting at 148% and ending at 165%
Final Destination
- Needles > Bouncing Fish starting at 114% and ending at 136%, 0 to Death.
- Forward Smash starting at 135% and ending at 144%
Smashville
- Forward Throw > Bouncing Fish starting at 87% and ending at 110%
- Jab2 > Forward Tilt starting at 189% and ending at 195%
Lylat Cruise
- Neutral Air > Up Smash starting at 89% and ending at 110%
Final Destination
- Bouncing Fish starting at 121% and ending at 132%
- Bouncing Fish starting at 163% and ending at 175%
VoiD's death percents were: 129%(Forward Air), 124%(Dash Attack), 115%(Back Air), 160%(Forward Air), 68%(Forward Air), 116%(Up Smash)


vs Larry Lurr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux69QU_WkiM
Lylat Cruise
- Forward Throw > Bouncing Fish starting at 115% and ending at 136%
- 93%. Lylat.
Battlefield
- Utilt > Lock > Tipper Up Smash. Started at 62% and ended at 101%
- Bouncing Fish starting at 160% and ending at 172%
Battlefield
- Up Smash starting at 123% and ending at 138%
- Stagespike Back Air starting at 82% and ending at 89%
VoiD's death percents were: 146%(Back Air), 109%(Up Smash), 107%(Up Air)


vs Tweek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IhrHfkzxmI
Town and City
- Shield Drop Back Air > Forward Smash starting at 116% and ending at 135%
Town and City
- Forward Throw > Up Smash starting at 85% and ending at 111%
- Up Throw > Up Air starting at 143% and ending at 157%
Town and City
- 0 to Death gimp sequence ending at 40%
- Up Throw > Up Air starting at 143% and ending at 159%
VoiD's death percents were: 131%(Down Air), 121%(Back Air), 148%(Back Air), 110%(Back Air)
Tweek then switches to : https://youtu.be/9IhrHfkzxmI?t=10m48s
Dream Land
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 116% and ending at 133%
Lylat Cruise
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 145% and ending at 162%
- Forward Tilt > Up Air starting at 98% and ending at 109%
VoiD's death percents were: 96%(Up Air) and 133%(Up Air)


vs Salem: https://youtu.be/FPIjhzZYg04
Smashville
- Bouncing Fish starting at 135% and ending at 146%
- Neutral Air > Untechable Back Air starting at 103% and ending at 115%
Smashville
- Up Throw > Up Air starting at 125% and ending at 140%
- Death string starting at 64% and ending at 100%
Smashville
- Bouncing Fish starting at 124% and ending at 137%
Town and City
- No stocks taken
Lylat Cruise
- Forward Smash starting at 111% and ending at 124%
VoiD's death percents were: 178%(Neutral Air), 111%(Up Smash), 92%(Witch Twist), 142%(Forward Throw), 113%(Up Air), 143%(Up Air), 151%(Back Air), 168%(Back Air)

vs Salem: https://youtu.be/FPIjhzZYg04?t=18m42s
Town and City
- Back Air > Bouncing Fish starting at 102% and ending at 119%
- Back Air > Up Smash starting at 125% and ending at 146%
Town and City
- Up Air starting at 139% and ending at 145%
Smashville
- Down Throw stagespike > Back Air starting at 131% and ending at 149%
Smashville
- Needles > Bouncing Fish starting at 131% ending at 150%
VoiD's death percents were: 185%(Back Air), 172%(Back Air), 133%(Back Air), 162%(Back Air), 140%(Neutral Air), 87%(Down Air), 63%(Up Air)

Average % the opponent was hit at before dying: 110%
Average % the screen showed immediately before dying: 128%
Average % VoiD died at: 130%
% of lives below 100: 20%
% of lives above 120: 60%
% of lives above 140: 43%

Notes:
~VoiD was over twice as likely to live over 140 than he was to die below 100%
~Sheik's average kill % by the best rep at doing so is likely higher than the average of Diddy and Bayonetta, 2/4 of the top 4 members
~Mario sucks
~VoiD was allowed to go to Final Destination too often
~Bayonetta is nearly incapable of killing Sheik past setup %s without back air or a grab with high rage
~Please hit all of your techs

Take the data as you wish.If you've got any issues with my methodology don't be afraid to speak up.

 

[Krysco]

vs Ally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TWi_BokQqU
Final Destination
- Vanish connected at 78% and killed at 90%
- Forward Tilt > Up Air starting at 113% and killing at 120%
Final Destination
- Up Air > Down Smash starting at 138% and ending at 150%
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 96% and ending at 113%
Final Destination
- Neutral Air > Up Smash starting at 98% and ending at 118%
Town and City
- Soft Down Throw > Up Air 50/50 starting at 118% and ending at 134%
- Jab2 > Down Tilt > Uair starting at 133% and ending at 151%
VoiD's death percents were: 152%(Forced Error, not necessarily an SD), 146%(Up Smash), 123%(Up Smash), 132%(Back Throw)

I was curious about what you meant by 'forced error, not necessarily an SD' so I watched the Mario match, up to that point and what it was was that Void had already grabbed the ledge, let go and then double jumped but didn't go back on stage, Ally had rolled away. He then used Bouncing Fish on the wall of the stage I'm guessing to try and run out the timer that prevents him from immediately grabbing the ledge, plus it got him above the ledge. He then used Vanish from above the ledge, down towards it and went past it, dying as a result. Ally tried to grab Void but missed due to Vanish, then shielded it so Void wouldn't have died to a stage spike from a dash attack. I'm just wondering what you meant by 'forced error, not necessarily an SD'. Void could've let go of down sooner to grab the ledge. I'm not sure if Ally could've dropped shield and connected a dsmash or dtilt before Void could act off the ledge but if he couldn't then wouldn't it have been moreso an SD? Probably just a minor nitpick but I'm curious about it since you listed the other SDs as just SDs, nothing else.

 

[Kofu]

I know, but I don't care why it is so, I just want it fixed. What's a swordie with unsafe tilts, a flyer who lands harder than a gorilla?

Apologies to for calling him Cpt Falcon with a sword -- we should've said Pit.

Not the case for tilts, but Pikachu has similar landing lag numbers as Pit. Neutral, Back, Up, and Down Airs have 25, 20, 24, and 40 frames of landing lag (though BAir and FAir have landing hitboxes to help mitigate that). Pika's FAir, a move somewhat similar to Pit's FAir, only has 15 frames and combos into a lot as a result.

The only real similarity I can see between the two are a full set of auto-canceling aerials (or almost, in Pika's case). While characters who don't have that luxury tend to have better landing lag numbers, the devs were awfully inconsistent about those with autocancels.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm writing up a Kirby results article after the sudden realization that his results are absolutely awful right now

For reference: He has fallen from 31st to 47th on reddit's tier list series since January of 2016 with no marked gains at all, only stagnancy or decline.

 

[|RK|]

Interesting enough, despite killing relatively early on average, VoiD himself says "Sheik can't kill" isn't a meme.

Regarding the Kirby article: All I have to say is "o no."

 

[Rizen]

DHATL stuff

this is cool but all it shows is that void's sheik didn't have trouble killing at dream hack. where he got 2nd, losing to salem's bayo. cloud, diddy and bayo outscore sheik by over a 5 to 4 ratio with all tournaments considered.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6rde0i/meta_analysis_kirby_a_tale_of_waning_confidence/

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/kirby-a-tale-of-waning-confidence/

"At least he's not Melee Kirby."

 

[Bigbomb2]

I'd love to see the pool of players Koopa gets his results from for each character. That'd be a fun read. Can see how rare some characters are vs how common many are.

 

[ARISTOS]

As an added bonus, I threw in the percents VoiD died at when they were available.
vs Russky: https://youtu.be/KIqhzDN2yS4
Final Destination
- Jabbed out of barrels at 11%
- Forward Throw > Up Smash. Initially grabbed at 85%, but died after the hit at 115%
VoiD then went Fox for Battlefield(he and most Sheiks dislike fighting Diddy here) so there's no data for that.
VoiD's death percents were: 59%(SD)


vs MVD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V48hbCkYT5M
Lylat Cruise
- Down Tilt > Up Air starting at 130% and killing at 143%
- Forward Smash connecting off an onstage Barrel punish at 125% but killing at 139%
Town and City
- Back Throw > Uair. MVD was grabbed at 120% and died off the top at 140%
Final Destination
- Up Air Connected at 111% and killed at 118%
- Back Air > Forward Smash. Bair connected at 111% and MVD died at 129%
VoiD's death percents were: 180%(Fair), 169%(Up Smash), 202%(Up Air)


vs Whiskey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmgAQdLvl0
Smashville
- Forward Throw > Stuff. Initially grabbed at 26% after a tilt combo from 5% and died to SV Sheik cheese at 57%.
- Needles > Bouncing Fish at 119%. Falcon died at 138%
Town and City
- Down Tilt > Up Smash starting at 76% and ending at 97%
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 128% and ending at 145%
VoiD's death percents were: 95%(SD) and 94%(Raptor Boost)


vs Ally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TWi_BokQqU
Final Destination
- Vanish connected at 78% and killed at 90%
- Forward Tilt > Up Air starting at 113% and killing at 120%
Final Destination
- Up Air > Down Smash starting at 138% and ending at 150%
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 96% and ending at 113%
Final Destination
- Neutral Air > Up Smash starting at 98% and ending at 118%
Town and City
- Soft Down Throw > Up Air 50/50 starting at 118% and ending at 134%
- Jab2 > Down Tilt > Uair starting at 133% and ending at 151%
VoiD's death percents were: 152%(Forced Error, not necessarily an SD), 146%(Up Smash), 123%(Up Smash), 132%(Back Throw)


vs Samsora: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxgFOZ9YD9o
Final Destination
- Neutral Air > Bouncing Fish starting at 148% and ending at 165%
Final Destination
- Needles > Bouncing Fish starting at 114% and ending at 136%, 0 to Death.
- Forward Smash starting at 135% and ending at 144%
Smashville
- Forward Throw > Bouncing Fish starting at 87% and ending at 110%
- Jab2 > Forward Tilt starting at 189% and ending at 195%
Lylat Cruise
- Neutral Air > Up Smash starting at 89% and ending at 110%
Final Destination
- Bouncing Fish starting at 121% and ending at 132%
- Bouncing Fish starting at 163% and ending at 175%
VoiD's death percents were: 129%(Forward Air), 124%(Dash Attack), 115%(Back Air), 160%(Forward Air), 68%(Forward Air), 116%(Up Smash)


vs Larry Lurr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux69QU_WkiM
Lylat Cruise
- Forward Throw > Bouncing Fish starting at 115% and ending at 136%
- 93%. Lylat.
Battlefield
- Utilt > Lock > Tipper Up Smash. Started at 62% and ended at 101%
- Bouncing Fish starting at 160% and ending at 172%
Battlefield
- Up Smash starting at 123% and ending at 138%
- Stagespike Back Air starting at 82% and ending at 89%
VoiD's death percents were: 146%(Back Air), 109%(Up Smash), 107%(Up Air)


vs Tweek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IhrHfkzxmI
Town and City
- Shield Drop Back Air > Forward Smash starting at 116% and ending at 135%
Town and City
- Forward Throw > Up Smash starting at 85% and ending at 111%
- Up Throw > Up Air starting at 143% and ending at 157%
Town and City
- 0 to Death gimp sequence ending at 40%
- Up Throw > Up Air starting at 143% and ending at 159%
VoiD's death percents were: 131%(Down Air), 121%(Back Air), 148%(Back Air), 110%(Back Air)
Tweek then switches to : https://youtu.be/9IhrHfkzxmI?t=10m48s
Dream Land
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 116% and ending at 133%
Lylat Cruise
- Forward Tilt > Vanish starting at 145% and ending at 162%
- Forward Tilt > Up Air starting at 98% and ending at 109%
VoiD's death percents were: 96%(Up Air) and 133%(Up Air)


vs Salem: https://youtu.be/FPIjhzZYg04
Smashville
- Bouncing Fish starting at 135% and ending at 146%
- Neutral Air > Untechable Back Air starting at 103% and ending at 115%
Smashville
- Up Throw > Up Air starting at 125% and ending at 140%
- Death string starting at 64% and ending at 100%
Smashville
- Bouncing Fish starting at 124% and ending at 137%
Town and City
- No stocks taken
Lylat Cruise
- Forward Smash starting at 111% and ending at 124%
VoiD's death percents were: 178%(Neutral Air), 111%(Up Smash), 92%(Witch Twist), 142%(Forward Throw), 113%(Up Air), 143%(Up Air), 151%(Back Air), 168%(Back Air)

vs Salem: https://youtu.be/FPIjhzZYg04?t=18m42s
Town and City
- Back Air > Bouncing Fish starting at 102% and ending at 119%
- Back Air > Up Smash starting at 125% and ending at 146%
Town and City
- Up Air starting at 139% and ending at 145%
Smashville
- Down Throw stagespike > Back Air starting at 131% and ending at 149%
Smashville
- Needles > Bouncing Fish starting at 131% ending at 150%
VoiD's death percents were: 185%(Back Air), 172%(Back Air), 133%(Back Air), 162%(Back Air), 140%(Neutral Air), 87%(Down Air), 63%(Up Air)

Average % the opponent was hit at before dying: 110%
Average % the screen showed immediately before dying: 128%
Average % VoiD died at: 130%
% of lives below 100: 20%
% of lives above 120: 60%
% of lives above 140: 43%

Notes:
~VoiD was over twice as likely to live over 140 than he was to die below 100%
~Sheik's average kill % by the best rep at doing so is likely higher than the average of Diddy and Bayonetta, 2/4 of the top 4 members
~Mario sucks
~VoiD was allowed to go to Final Destination too often
~Bayonetta is nearly incapable of killing Sheik past setup %s without back air or a grab with high rage
~Please hit all of your techs

Take the data as you wish.If you've got any issues with my methodology don't be afraid to speak up.

Thanks for doing this (again).

We'd need to see some comparisons for other characters to offer a comparison, but I don't expect you to do that lol.

My hot take without any sort of data: outside of certain characters/set-ups killing is kind of a crapshot in this game

 

[Laken64]

I always see Corrin doing really well on these charts, and obviously she has to be getting results somewhere for that to happen, but I don't really get what makes this character good.

She has an excellent advantage state for sure, primarily through juggling, and her range is definitely enough push a lot of matchups into favorable territory, and Dragon Lunge is as crazy as always, but I'm not really seeing how she does so well. The character is completely lacking in safe options outside of back air, with literally all of her other normal being punishable on shield at maximum range. Her recovery is hard to mess with but doesn't get much distance. Her mobility isn't a liability but it's nothing to write home about. Her grabs are really only good for her eventual kill throw. Her projectile is honestly really bad. What makes this character do so well? How can someone with such an unsafe neutral do so well? Corrin has always struck me as a strong mid tier, so obviously I must be missing something, unless her players are secretly just really good.

Im just going to break down your post so I can answer all your questions here.

The character is completely lacking in safe options outside of back air, with literally all of her other normal being punishable on shield at maximum range.

This is completely true (spaced nair can be safe but not all the time), but don't forget that has the same problem (groundwise) as well which they both make up for with their amazing aerial game.

Her recovery is hard to mess with but doesn't get much distance.

Its lackluster vertically but its great horizontally like roy's blazer but with extra protection

Her mobility isn't a liability but it's nothing to write home about.

I agree, nothing to write home about.

Her grabs are really only good for her eventual kill throw.

I have to disagree on this one. Although her throws do little damage they give her positioning and stage control which is central to the character so they do have more importance than what they look like at first (also her back and forward throws have a tipper effect on them which does 15% but thats only applicable in doubles rip)

Her projectile is honestly really bad

I understand what you mean, the fact DFS has no priority regardless of charge makes it look pretty bad, but the uncharged shot is all you need to confirm to fully charged bite or SH aerial tipper pin, both of which kill mad early (bite does 20% fully charged) and is the only reason why you should use DFS in the first place, its not a neutral tool.

How can someone with such an unsafe neutral do so well?

What makes Corrin have an unsafe neutral to you? The sole fact that she has no safe ground moves? While that is a factor there are many others to consider when looking at a characters neutral (also again cloud has that same problem on the ground but he has redeeming factors like his range. limit ect.). Corrin has the fastest dash to shield in the game (tied with ), an excellent initial dash and foxtrot (which can be used to bait an option and pin) and is a literal sea urchin of hitboxes which can shut down approaches and start combos, juggles and frame traps which corrin excels at greatly. And because of the constant threat of the burst range of pin people have to respect her burst range which forces them to play around corrins options more often than the other way around. is a Character like(and ) where she benefits greatly off fundamentals (kinda makes sense why Earth uses Corrin now, and Leo's corrin is lacking in knowledge but his fundamentals help him out well). Corrin has an average neutral focused on walling the opponent out and baiting them to make a mistake and punish with pin. The characters that can overrun corrin to the ground in neutral are naturally fast (or they're )(sheik is the worst by far)

I hope this answers all of your questions, if you have any more just ask

 

[ARGHETH]

My hot take without any sort of data: outside of certain characters/set-ups killing is kind of a crapshot in this game

Yup lol

(Note: these are pre-attack/combo %s)
Tweek:
vs Typhoon:
Smashville
-154%: Dash Attack at ledge
-145%: Uair
Battlefield
-109%: Bair
-92%: Rage Dsmash near ledge
vs Ryuga:
Final Destination
-143%: Uair
-152%: Bair
-125%: Uair
-155%: Bair
vs Vinnie:
Lylat
-140%: Uair
-114%: Bair
Then they switched to Rosa-DK
vs Salem:
Battlefield
-132%: Weird exchange at edge causing Bayo to run out of specials offstage
-0%: Offstage Up B
Smashville
-101%: Bair above ledge, didn't kill but Bayo couldn't make it back
-121%: Uair
-141%: Ftilt
-98%: Ftilt
-132%: Bair
vs Void:
Town & City
-117%: Rage Dair onstage
-109%: Bair
-137%: Bair
-97%: Bair
Then he switched to DK
vs Salem:
Battlefield
-204%: Ftilt
-141%: Bair
Smashville
-121%: Ftilt

Average: 124%
SV average: 127%
BF average: 120%

Bair accounted for 40% of Tweek's kills. Aerials in general were 67% of his kills, but no surprise there. He didn't kill with Limit specials at all, and his only special kill in general was the offstage climhazzard (for streamed matches, anyways).

 

[Pyrover]

What makes Corrin have an unsafe neutral to you? The sole fact that she has no safe ground moves? While that is a factor there are many others to consider when looking at a characters neutral (also again cloud has that same problem on the ground but he has redeeming factors like his range. limit ect.). Corrin has the fastest dash to shield in the game (tied with ), an excellent initial dash and foxtrot (which can be used to bait an option and pin) and is a literal sea urchin of hitboxes which can shut down approaches and start combos, juggles and frame traps which corrin excels at greatly. And because of the constant threat of the burst range of pin people have to respect her burst range which forces them to play around corrins options more often than the other way around. is a Character like(and ) where she benefits greatly off fundamentals (kinda makes sense why Earth uses Corrin now, and Leo's corrin is lacking in knowledge but his fundamentals help him out well). Corrin has an average neutral focused on walling the opponent out and baiting them to make a mistake and punish with pin. The characters that can overrun corrin to the ground in neutral are naturally fast (or they're )(sheik is the worst by far)

I hope this answers all of your questions, if you have any more just ask

Much appreciated. If all of that was accurate then I may be looking at her game plan incorrectly. I primarily see Corrin players attempting to rush down the opponent, which she obviously doesn't excel at. The one thing I want to note is that I wasn't just referring to her grounded moves with regards to an unsafe neutral. Outside of poking with Back air, her aerial moves are not reliably safe either. Nair is sometimes safe but it isn't something you can land with, which is probably the main weakness I was thinking of. She really doesn't want to end up close to her opponent. If she's intended to be playing a retreating bait and punish game, then that makes sense though.

Her less obvious attributes like dash-to-shield being so good explains a bit as well. Thanks for the explanations. I still think 14th is higher than she deserves, but this at least makes so many people insisting she's high tier sound logical.

 

[FeelMeUp]

this is cool but all it shows is that void's sheik didn't have trouble killing at dream hack. where he got 2nd, losing to salem's bayo. cloud, diddy and bayo outscore sheik by over a 5 to 4 ratio with all tournaments considered.

this has nothing to do with what i posted at all
how you managed to read all that yet completely miss the point and talk about character results instead is a mystery to me

 

[Rizen]

this has nothing to do with what i posted at all
how you managed to read all that yet completely miss the point and talk about character results instead is a mystery to me

What was the point?

 

[|RK|]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6rde0i/meta_analysis_kirby_a_tale_of_waning_confidence/

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/kirby-a-tale-of-waning-confidence/

"At least he's not Melee Kirby."

How does your system work for B-tiers like GOML?

 

[FeelMeUp]

What was the point?

emphasizing the perspective of sheik's apparent killing weakness being a regurgitated hyperbole that was only ever used to add relatively paltry weaknesses to the character. players get so engrossed in the idea of S4 being a game with superb, reasonable character balance and often unintentionally shill said idea to the uninformed(which ends up doing nothing but perpetuating the idea that this game isn't controlled by 5 or so characters). the opposite happens as well, of course, but i'd rather speak on those downplaying characters first.
it's much more difficult to outright deny the idea that opponents living to 180% against sheik is an outlier and that mr. r has this problem regardless of what character he plays when you can see the numbers in front of you.
this also reinforces some things i've repeated time and time again for months to almost a year+ now
example:

Similar to above ~110-120%, Sheik past setup death % she becomes the hardest character in the game to kill.
She can now easily live until 130-160% because centerstage stray hits usually won't kill and the opponent needs to take monumental risks to gradually chip away at stage control and eventually strip the life off of you.

and about that SD thing

I was curious about what you meant by 'forced error, not necessarily an SD'

sheiks mess up that specific angle along with the 45° very frequently when they're being pressured on ledge at very high %s. i've done it, sheiks i've played have done it, i see it in videos a lot, etc.
felt very clearly like a mistake that was prompted by ally's pressure rather than his own personal errors.

 

[Rizen]

emphasizing the perspective of sheik's apparent killing weakness being a regurgitated hyperbole that was only ever used to add relatively paltry weaknesses to the character. players get so engrossed in the idea of S4 being a game with superb, reasonable character balance and often unintentionally shill said idea to the uninformed(which ends up doing nothing but perpetuating the idea that this game isn't controlled by 5 or so characters). the opposite happens as well, of course, but i'd rather speak on those downplaying characters first.
it's much more difficult to outright deny the idea that opponents living to 180% against sheik is an outlier and that mr. r has this problem regardless of what character he plays when you can see the numbers in front of you.
this also reinforces some things i've repeated time and time again for months to almost a year+ now
example:


and about that SD thing

sheiks mess up that specific angle along with the 45° very frequently when they're being pressured on ledge at very high %s. i've done it, sheiks i've played have done it, i see it in videos a lot, etc.
felt very clearly like a mistake that was prompted by ally's pressure rather than his own personal errors.

I thought you were continuing the conversation from earlier on this page about rankings. I agree, I even said it; Sheik's not bad at killing.

edit, in the past i've said bayo's future will revolve around how versatile her juggling is, not just for ladders but to carry the opponent offstage. here's a good example of that:
https://youtu.be/-er-AP01kus?list=PLcMdMmtHkPpSQTTWL7Kf55hzUDdOxVbWx&t=420

 

[Das Koopa]

How does your system work for B-tiers like GOML?

I don't use tiering, it's categorized. But B-Tiers and Category 3 (use of Top 16) are the typical overlap.

 

[Lord Dio]

eddit's tier list serie

Link to this please?
Also, you said in the article you'd never done that, but if you ever get the time, would you mind doing this for ganondorf and zelda? For analytical reasons.

 

[Das Koopa]

Next time I do one of those articles, it'll likely cover multiple characters. Jr, Puff, Zelda, Ganon, & Dedede are the prime targets atm.

 

[Lord Dio]

Next time I do one of those articles, it'll likely cover multiple characters. Jr, Puff, Zelda, Ganon, & Dedede are the prime targets atm.

Thank you!
In the comments to the reddit article there are multiple mentions of kirby being possibly bottom 5 or bottom ten. I think something like this for those 5 could really help understand just where they stand on the tier list and in the meta.
Especially interested in ganondorf and zelda considering they've had good showings for a while.

 

[Game7a1]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-11-low-tier-city-5-and-smash-factor-6.449316/
Weekend thread is up.

Next time I do one of those articles, it'll likely cover multiple characters. Jr, Puff, Zelda, Ganon, & Dedede are the prime targets atm.

Speaking of Puff and Bowser Jr, MASTER PUFFY and Kub4444 attending Smash Factor 6 (sadly, I didn't see Andy (Mexico's best Dedede) registered on smash.gg). Might be good to keep an eye on them to see if they make any notable upsets.

 

[Nobie]

When it comes to character viability vs. player base results, there's an interesting conversation currently happening on the Melee side that’s worth looking at.

There's been quite a bit of talk lately about Melee Falco’s placement on the tier list vs. his placings at majors, and the idea that Falco is overrated. Mang0 presents a different argument: the current crop of upcoming Falco's have a bad role model in Westballz, who emphasizes tech and swag to a harmful degree. If PPMD was still around playing actively, then players would be learning the right lessons.

Melee is a different scene, and Melee Falco woes are different from Smash 4 Kirby's (“Oh no I'm only top 5 and not top 2 maybe!!!”), but it goes to show how even having somewhat worse player fill the proverbial boots of a missing top rep can make a huge difference.

That's why the assumption that others will step in to fill the void isn't reliable. Even if there are comparable players, the lessons the players below learn can change tremendously, the effects rippling all the way to the bottom.

I follow the NYC scene pretty regularly, and it has traditionally been a land of strong Kirby mains. The things they can accomplish with that character are nothing to sneeze at. But not having MikeKirby playing as frequently actually does hurt. He’s a player who labs a lot and is willing to tough out a lot of bad matchups, and not having him as an example to learn from is an issue. Sure, Kirby is still negatively affected by the amount of Clouds out there, but I think the character has many relevant strengths.

Speaking of Clouds, NYC’s Ralphie is always on the cusp of winning locals or even regionals, but he displays nerve issues that keep him from clutching, even against so-called low tier characters. I wonder if Cloud is relatively bad to use if you're more prone to choking.

 

[Heracr055]

^I am sure that players prone to choking will experience the same results, regardless of what char they play.
I feel kinda bad for Kirby in this game. I imagine swordies such as Cloud and Marcina are huge thorns in his side. On the other hand, they can be fairly problematic for Ryu online with the 3DS version, thanks to duck and no attack tilt to catch them with d-tilt...not to mention that brutal d-air that neuters his linear recovery.

 

[TDK]

Rosalina's 8th on that chart is incredibly interesting to look at, considering she's won an S Tier and an A tier and consistently gets top 8s.
I wonder why this is.....

There's always one character in any smash game who, despite being really good, just isn't popular for various reasons, usually more of a defensive style or a high skill floor required to play them. This time it's Rosalina. She never will be popular, just because she's a very difficult defensive character, and that will lead to lower results compared to her actual viability.

 

[Lord Dio]

Here's something I thought about that could be very good for discussion:
Often, when someone is new to the game, people say to play usually either Kirby, Pit, or Mario. Why? Partially because they have "low learning curves". However, as it's been seen, there's more to the characters than at first glance, as in, their learning curves aren't as low as one thinks starting out. Interestingly enough, it's right about now that all three of those characters' futures and places in the meta are being looked at differently (not so much Mario, but people question him being better than other top tiers he's above right now).

Does a character's learning cuve affect their representation in tournament, and thus affect why they aren't seen as much as other characters? it certainly seems to explain why many low tier characters (Ganon, D3, Zelda, Pac-Man), are in that position......

 

[Rizen]

Here's something I thought about that could be very good for discussion:
Often, when someone is new to the game, people say to play usually either Kirby, Pit, or Mario. Why? Partially because they have "low learning curves". However, as it's been seen, there's more to the characters than at first glance, as in, their learning curves aren't as low as one thinks starting out. Interestingly enough, it's right about now that all three of those characters' futures and places in the meta are being looked at differently (not so much Mario, but people question him being better than other top tiers he's above right now).

Does a character's learning cuve affect their representation in tournament, and thus affect why they aren't seen as much as other characters? it certainly seems to explain why many low tier characters (Ganon, D3, Zelda, Pac-Man), are in that position......

is very easy to play and rewards reads and punishes. His ease of use could explain why he does better than Bjr and others. He gets shut down hard at higher levels.
is moderate difficulty to learn. The problem is she just isn't very good. Zelda can't really force anything and once the opponent learns not to play her game she doesn't have much outside of hard reads. idk about the others.

imo is a good character to learn the game with. He dabbles in zoning, aggression, bait and counter, offstage play and is good for learning chains/juggles.