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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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TurboLink

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That would explain w hy Hyuga has been investing in a Diddy since his absence. It's because of this that I actually think Link is a slightly better character than Toon Link, but the main thing holding Link back is his lack of representation. T is easily his best player but doesn't play as patiently as he should for certain matchups, plus he doesn't travel and attend nearly as much as the other top Japanese players do. As it stands right now there's no one else in the world close to T's level of skill who currently mains Link.
I don't agree at all. Link is not better than Toon Link. Link is a heavyweight and that will always carry more disadvantages than advantages in a game like Super Smash Bros. Seriously go play Link against some of the top tier characters. Those same things apply to Link except he has a more threatening throws. Also Toon Link's mobility allows him to keep people off of his ass and from abusing his mediocre close combat better than Link can. If Toon Link didn't have the run speed he has now then he would likely be worse than even Link.
 

The-Technique

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I don't agree at all. Link is not better than Toon Link. Link is a heavyweight and that will always carry more disadvantages than advantages in a game like Super Smash Bros. Seriously go play Link against some of the top tier characters. Those same things apply to Link except he has a more threatening throws. Also Toon Link's mobility allows him to keep people off of his *** and from abusing his mediocre close combat better than Link can. If Toon Link didn't have the run speed he has now then he would likely be worse than even Link.
Personally I don't think Toon Link is that hard to catch at all, his neutral is very smoke and mirrors where he's doing a lot of things at once to tilt you, but all it takes is patience and power shielding to find his opening.

Even though Link is a meaty sluggish punching bag, he's also in a game where rage exists thus his tools demand more respect by default, especially when jank low percent KOs are more common in this game than others. I still think Link is underdeveloped and it doesn't help that there's only been one notable player so far that has achieved major results (in one of the biggest tournaments of the year no less).
 

Ziodyne 21

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Mistake :4bayonetta2:2-1 ZeRo :4diddy:

Mistake with those 2 ladder combos when he was over 100% and ZeRo around 20-30 to win game 3

Also Captain Zack 2-0 Abadango offstream
 
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Shady Shaymin

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Something to consider about :4diddy: that could hold him back from being the best character in the long run: When not holding a banana, Diddy doesn't have any really good burst punish options against grounded opponents if he finds an opening in the neutral and wants to capitalize. Think about all the other top tiers and why they dominate neutral.

:4sheik: finds an opening and she can run up fair, which, when combining her mobility with fair's frame data and follow up potential, is insane. She can also fastfall fair or nair after a short hop if she really needs to hit low profile or grounded opponents, but rising fair's frame data and hitbox are safe enough that it's a good burst option anyway.

:4fox: finds an opening and he can abuse his frame 4 dash attack and all the ridiculous followups that come with it.

:4bayonetta: obviously has jump cancelled run-up witch twist which doesn't put her into free fall, can be done out of a dash, and leads to massive rewards most of the time.

Even :4marth:, who's neutral isn't as offense based as some other top tiers, can perform his excellent dancing blade out of a dash, and his rising fair has a good hitbox and frame data for burst punishes as well.

Now on paper, Diddy Kong should be able to hold his own against these characters with his offensive approaches and punishes out of a dash. His ground speed is excellent, he has good rising aerials in Fair and Bair, and when coupled with arguably one of the best grounded pokes in dtilt, his offensive punish capabilities should be godlike. Unfortunately on closer inspection, these moves have some issues. As Zinoto points out in his Cram School video, Diddy's fair is actually a lot less safe on shield than people think it to be, and its hitbox is actually really bad at hitting some shorter grounded opponents. When coupled with the fact that a fast fall forward air has lots of endlag, it means that Fair is not actually that great as an offensive approach on the ground, despite its solid defensive capability for stuffing out approaches and winning the horizontal aerial disjoint game. Rising bair is also mediocre against grounded, non-tall opponents. Down tilt is a great move but by nature of being a tilt cannot be done out of a dash, so its utility as a burst punish is limited (even with Diddy's amazing fox trot).

Granted, Diddy can compound this with the banana, as the banana can be jump cancelled out of a dash and has exceptional frame data, but possessing the banana makes Diddy a very different character and has its own set of limitations.

These observations have honestly kind of turned me off of the character as of recent. Diddy is stupid levels of fun at a certain level of play because bad players jump way too much, play too aggressively and succumb to Fair, Dtilt and banana shenanigans. At higher levels, Diddy gets away with way less Fair spam and general cheese, and you're left with a character that has to play more defensively in higher level matchups because he can't always get in and capitalize on a punish when he needs to. His option select is just really weird in general.
 

blackghost

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Zero better stop making the same mistake. He keeps dying for it. He died the exact same way as evo.
 

Lord Dio

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If aba makes it in, we have 4 bayos in top 8.
I know it was said bayo isn't being banned, but if we see these kinds of performances often, I could see that decision changing.
 

TDK

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

I didn't watch the set, but did ZeRo Monkey Flip into Mistake at the top blastzone again? You think he'd have learned after Salem.
 

Ziodyne 21

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If aba makes it in, we have 4 bayos in top 8.
I know it was said bayo isn't being banned, but if we see these kinds of performances often, I could see that decision changing.
Aba beat DeluxeMenu to get into top 8 Losers side. so yeah Half of top 8 at LTC are Umber Witches
 
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Lord Dio

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Before the hubbub starts again (becasue it already kinda has), a reminder that the 4 bayos in top 8 are some of the best bayos there are, and that top 32 wasn't polluted with bayonetta.
 

blackghost

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

I didn't watch the set, but did ZeRo Monkey Flip into Mistake at the top blastzone again? You think he'd have learned after Salem.
It was deja vu. It was exactly the same outcome. Larry game vs lima was last hit but Larry missed a lot of punishes
 

Ziodyne 21

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It was deja vu. It was exactly the same outcome. Larry game vs lima was last hit but Larry missed a lot of punishes


Ok what would it take. Bayo winning every remaining major of the year ? Having the top 8 be nothing but Bayo? what would it take to get you stop downplaying Bayo and say her wins are due to chance or " opponent mistakes. I think its safe to say that maybe part of Bayo's recent success might just be due to the fact she is just really, really good.
 
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Lord Dio

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man how much success and wins must Bayo get before you stop saying Bayo won was due to chance or " opponent mistakes.
Bayo is really, really good. Best character in the game? Probably. Bannable? No.
What would that take? Well, we've seen the MK polluting top 8, and we're about to see bayonetta do it. Except this is the first time it's happened. If we see it happen multiple times, and bayonetta polluting top 32 as well, that would be worthy of bringing up the banning discussion.
That's my take on this past month of tournaments.
 

Locke 06

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It was deja vu. It was exactly the same outcome. Larry game vs lima was last hit but Larry missed a lot of punishes
"Missing punishes" vs Bayo is like saying, "that weatherman didn't predict this rain today."

Bayo is so ambiguous and a mistake on your punish costs at least 30% at low-mid% and stage control at high%.

There's a reason why Dabuz and the smartest top players feel good about the matchup and still struggle to hit punishes in neutral.
 

FeelMeUp

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Ok Blackghist ... man how much success and wins must Bayo get before you stop saying Bayo won was due to chance or " opponent mistakes. I think part of Bayo's recent success might just be due to the fact she is just really, really good.
Except it largely is due to major errors from opponents.
You should always call out fluke scenarios that shouldn't work with the character you're using.
He never denied Bayonetta being amazing. He's saying that our top players generally suck at counterplaying specific situations against her.

On that note:
Everyone's SDI is SIGNIFICANTLY better than it was roughly 8 months ago. People are getting Witch Timed near the ledge(and in general) less, there's fewer grounded Side B's that are going unpunished, and Bayo mains aren't landing after 4 specials without being bodied for it as often.
The issue now is people pressing excess buttons or hitting things at the wrong time when returning from disadvantage.

For example:
-A lot of people mash airdodge when getting air combo'd and popping out near fullhop height. By doing this you're potentially subjecting yourself to harsh landing lag and giving up what may be your only chance to hit or kill her.
-Know what rolls and spotdodges she can reasonably punish from certain distances. She's very reminiscent of :jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:at times. If you're at max range in a tech situation, she has a lot of trouble covering roll away. If you're right next to her and she commits to a dash forward, she usually can't cover tech roll in on reaction unless she's primed for it.
-People are still mashing jump during her fair chains and are getting sniped out of it immediately. EVEN IF YOU ARE FOX, DO NOT JUMP UNLESS YOUR SDI IS GARBAGE. By jumping you're handing the Bayo a free stock due to the likelihood that you will not recover
-Top players still fail to SDI dAbK properly on reaction and constantly get fair'd, nair'd, and sometimes double dAbK'd. Always be prepared to SDI any hit the moment she taps you. Know all of your SDI multipliers so you can save energy when there's no use.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GJXRd33ij1QU9QUng7JSOqDPEUvba7WfAUlBENlRkGM/edit#gid=0
 
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Jaxas

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Rizen

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Something to consider about :4diddy: that could hold him back from being the best character in the long run: When not holding a banana, Diddy doesn't have any really good burst punish options against grounded opponents if he finds an opening in the neutral and wants to capitalize. Think about all the other top tiers and why they dominate neutral.

:4sheik: finds an opening and she can run up fair, which, when combining her mobility with fair's frame data and follow up potential, is insane. She can also fastfall fair or nair after a short hop if she really needs to hit low profile or grounded opponents, but rising fair's frame data and hitbox are safe enough that it's a good burst option anyway.

:4fox: finds an opening and he can abuse his frame 4 dash attack and all the ridiculous followups that come with it.

:4bayonetta: obviously has jump cancelled run-up witch twist which doesn't put her into free fall, can be done out of a dash, and leads to massive rewards most of the time.

Even :4marth:, who's neutral isn't as offense based as some other top tiers, can perform his excellent dancing blade out of a dash, and his rising fair has a good hitbox and frame data for burst punishes as well.

Now on paper, Diddy Kong should be able to hold his own against these characters with his offensive approaches and punishes out of a dash. His ground speed is excellent, he has good rising aerials in Fair and Bair, and when coupled with arguably one of the best grounded pokes in dtilt, his offensive punish capabilities should be godlike. Unfortunately on closer inspection, these moves have some issues. As Zinoto points out in his Cram School video, Diddy's fair is actually a lot less safe on shield than people think it to be, and its hitbox is actually really bad at hitting some shorter grounded opponents. When coupled with the fact that a fast fall forward air has lots of endlag, it means that Fair is not actually that great as an offensive approach on the ground, despite its solid defensive capability for stuffing out approaches and winning the horizontal aerial disjoint game. Rising bair is also mediocre against grounded, non-tall opponents. Down tilt is a great move but by nature of being a tilt cannot be done out of a dash, so its utility as a burst punish is limited (even with Diddy's amazing fox trot).

Granted, Diddy can compound this with the banana, as the banana can be jump cancelled out of a dash and has exceptional frame data, but possessing the banana makes Diddy a very different character and has its own set of limitations.

These observations have honestly kind of turned me off of the character as of recent. Diddy is stupid levels of fun at a certain level of play because bad players jump way too much, play too aggressively and succumb to Fair, Dtilt and banana shenanigans. At higher levels, Diddy gets away with way less Fair spam and general cheese, and you're left with a character that has to play more defensively in higher level matchups because he can't always get in and capitalize on a punish when he needs to. His option select is just really weird in general.
It's not hard for Diddy to get a banana but he does pretty well without one. Diddy can auto cancel rising Fair. His walk is very good and as Jaxas Jaxas mentioned Diddy can run and Dtilt too. The big thing is his dash grab. Watch the ZeRo vs Salem evo set and you'll see Diddy dominates neutral.
https://youtu.be/obWXT0WFdK8
 

FeelMeUp

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Running dtilt is one of the hardest techs in this game and I would be HIGHLY surprised if you saw any top 50 level player start doing it within the next year.
You don't even see people shield drop/running shield drop and that's leagues easier, so why even mention running dtilt in an argument about the current state of Diddy's meta?
 

Krysco

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Guess I picked a convenient time to bring up Bayo and brokenness. And go figure, some people were responding to Ally's tweet with 'she's fine cuz she's not Brawl MK' essentially lol. Still not saying she's broken but I do find it funny.

Also, if Aba is in top 8 and is being listed as one of the 4 Bayo's, I'm guessing he went mostly or only Bayo? And he's been focusing on her for how long? Just an observation I feel is noteworthy since people claim 'you can't just pick up Bayo' like when Zero says he might/will.
 

blackghost

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Except it largely is due to major errors from opponents.
You should always call out fluke scenarios that shouldn't work with the character you're using.
He never denied Bayonetta being amazing. He's saying that our top players generally suck at counterplaying specific situations against her.

On that note:
Everyone's SDI is SIGNIFICANTLY better than it was roughly 8 months ago. People are getting Witch Timed near the ledge(and in general) less, there's fewer grounded Side B's that are going unpunished, and Bayo mains aren't landing after 4 specials without being bodied for it as often.
The issue now is people pressing excess buttons or hitting things at the wrong time when returning from disadvantage.

For example:
-A lot of people mash airdodge when getting air combo'd and popping out near fullhop height. By doing this you're potentially subjecting yourself to harsh landing lag and giving up what may be your only chance to hit or kill her.
-Know what rolls and spotdodges she can reasonably punish from certain distances. She's very reminiscent of :jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:at times. If you're at max range in a tech situation, she has a lot of trouble covering roll away. If you're right next to her and she commits to a dash forward, she usually can't cover tech roll in on reaction unless she's primed for it.
-People are still mashing jump during her fair chains and are getting sniped out of it immediately. EVEN IF YOU ARE FOX, DO NOT JUMP UNLESS YOUR SDI IS GARBAGE. By jumping you're handing the Bayo a free stock due to the likelihood that you will not recover
-Top players still fail to SDI dAbK properly on reaction and constantly get fair'd, nair'd, and sometimes double dAbK'd. Always be prepared to SDI any hit the moment she taps you. Know all of your SDI multipliers so you can save energy when there's no use.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GJXRd33ij1QU9QUng7JSOqDPEUvba7WfAUlBENlRkGM/edit#gid=0
It's almost pointless to drop actual information concerning bayo no one wants to learn they want to complain. Come Sept 19 I won't care anymore. If sets continue to go like mistake vs zero or Larry lurr vs lima this game is in a good place imo. Fast paced edge of your seat, offstage battles, and large combos and punishes.
My point largely is that while people are better at sdi they don't know what to do when they actually get out.
 

origamiscienceguy

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It's frightening that Bayonetta is not even fully developed. She has footstool combos that are more deadly than her regular ones.
 

NairWizard

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It's almost pointless to drop actual information concerning bayo no one wants to learn they want to complain.
I hate to put down my bowl of popcorn, but this, my friend, is just silly.

It's easy to call out mistakes when you only look at one side of a matchup, but Lima and Mistake are making just as many mistakes as Larry and ZeRo. You think ZeRo and Larry have room to do better against their opponents? Yes, of course, certainly, they do. But their opponents have just as much room to grow as players. I don't see any major errors being made, what I see is a character winning in matchups that she ought to be winning.

About a year ago Salem suffered a pretty serious loss to Dabuz and people in this thread were saying that Bayonetta loses to Rosa. I posted in reply that Bayonetta's neutral had a lot of room to grow and that Salem would get there eventually. There's still tons of room. The character isn't just strong beyond belief she also has more potential to grow than almost anyone else. Like where does Mario's metagame go? Or Fox's? Bayo's can only get better and better.


That being said, though, I don't think this tournament will even be won by a Bayo, so let's not get up in arms.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Diddy is held back by more major problems than lacking good burst punishes (and to be frank, the burst punishes he does have are still pretty good, even if t. hey aren't as good as Sheik or Fox).

His damage output compared to the rest of the cast is weak. A majority of the characters in the game have punishes that can deal 30%+ damage when optimized, but Diddy's best punishes usually cap around dealing 20-25% damage. Additionally, his ability to edgeguard is significantly weaker than many characters in the cast due to his low Airspeed, though that's less of a problem since his ledge coverage options are among the most oppressive in the game.

His disadvantage isn't terrible, but it is still very exploitable. Despite being very versatile, his recovery's startup time can be exploited by most characters and easily edgeguarded. Even though he has a combo breaker in Uair, its High landing lag and poor hitbox make it much weaker than other character's combo breakers. Additionally, though Diddy has some landing mixups, his options aren't enough to beat other characters juggling tools (things like Clouds Uair, Bayo's up B, etc).

His neutral has many perks that many other characters cannot enjoy. His movement is among the most fluid in the game, he has access to a dangerous item that can setup into several of his other moves + pressure shields, and his hitboxes on most of his attacks are solid. That being said, his neutral does have several key weaknesses, namely that most of his moves are unsafe on Shield. Additionally, Diddy can have trouble breaking through characters with bigger hitboxes, as several matches have shown.
 

Illusion.

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The amount of people downplaying Bayonetta here is annoying and atrocious. What's so hard about accepting that she's overtuned or at the very least very, very good
 
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ARISTOS

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Characters don't have to be the equivalent of :metaknight: to be bad for the meta-that character was one of the/probably the strongest Smash character ever created. It's a bad point of reference.

For example, if Smash 4 was never patched I imagine :4diddy: would be an absolutely dominant force- one that would probably also have needed to be banned.

This is not to say that :4bayonetta2: should be banned, but that such discussion should come based on her impact in our current meta/estimated impact on the future meta
 

Rizen

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Seriously, this thread has a weird resistance to admitting top characters who don't rhyme with 'loud' are good. Then as soon as Debuz wins something everyone's aboard the Rosa train. Bah.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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This actually brings another question to mind. Do you guys think characters who initially get a bad rep will suffer results lower than they should actually be getting? Samus, for example, was a perfectly good character for some time, but had a "low-tier stigma" attached to her, so a lot of players just didn't want to put in the effort with a character they were told was weak.

Yes.

Does a character's learning cuve affect their representation in tournament, and thus affect why they aren't seen as much as other characters? it certainly seems to explain why many low tier characters (Ganon, D3, Zelda, Pac-Man), are in that position......
Yes.
I would add Shulk and Lucas to the learning curve list when it comes to optimal play.
 
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NairWizard

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If we're talking about prepatch :4diddy: who had some of the best results that the game's ever seen let's not forget that we also had the titans that were pre-nerf:4sheik: :4metaknight: :4lucario: :4greninja: :4fox: :rosalina: :4luigi: :4bayonetta: :4sonic: :4falcon::4cloud: running around at various points. Heck, even prepatch :4bowser: and :4corrin: were absolutely nightmarishly good and would make most of the current cast look like they suck.

Pre-nerf Fox had a frame-2 jab that could take away 40 or 50% from you. Remember when Megafox was one of the most dominant players in the game? Yeah, prepatch Fox days.

Pre-nerf Sonic had a kill throw that killed you at 70-80% from the edge of the stage (at least until people learned how to DI it properly).
Remember when 6WX was a top 10-20 player? Yeah, prepatch Sonic days.

Pre-nerf Meta Knight had... lol. Who ever thought that this character was okay? Like, what the heck. It was beyond stupid. Half our top 8s today would be filled with MKs or pocket MKs if he hadn't gotten toned down.

The competitive landscape would look so different without patches, it wouldn't just be all Diddy Kongs. We'd have a substantially different top player base and matchup chart, so it's hard to predict who would be precisely at the top.

Prepatch Diddy, while no doubt insanely strong, would have been hotly contested by these other characters over the years, just like Meta Knight in Brawl was contested by Ice Climbers, Olimar, Snake, Falco, and Marth over the years (but ended up dominating those matchups at the highest levels toward the end, granted).

Results are not always indicative of game balance, at least immediately. It takes years sometimes for the best to settle at the top after the dust clears. Personally, I think that without any patches, Sonic would have been the game's best character today.

As Salem said, prepatch Bayonetta was probably one of the most broken things to ever touch smash (he said she was better than Brawl MK or Melee Fox, which is a strong claim; and whether you agree or not, she was certainly very strong), but she didn't even win any majors. Let that sink in.
 
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MERPIS

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Seriously, this thread has a weird resistance to admitting top characters who don't rhyme with 'loud' are good. Then as soon as Debuz wins something everyone's aboard the Rosa train. Bah.
welcome to smashboards. Where people think every top player is carrying their characters.

As Salem said, prepatch Bayonetta was probably one of the most broken things to ever touch smash (he said she was better than Brawl MK or Melee Fox, which is a strong claim; and whether you agree or not, she was certainly very strong), but she didn't even win any majors. Let that sink in.
the time from the release of her to the time of the big nerf was 3 months and a little bit. How many majors were in that time?
 
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Pyrover

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I think it's important that we all remember that Bayo's recent surge in dominance has been just that. Recent. A month ago, nobody was seriously discussing a Bayonetta ban. Before we honestly discuss it, we need to give it time to see if she's actually toxic. I don't think she is. She has absolutely had good success in the past, enough that she has the best results right now, but we're just now seeing her dominate.

Furthermore, we're seeing that dominance in the form of players like Abadango, Lima, and Mistake, who the top players aren't used to facing (at least, not with this character in aba's case). This is key in that she is extremely versatile in how you can play her, so quick tips aren't necessarily helpful for all Bayo players. You have to adapt to the player as well as the character. We saw Zero lose to Luthie at Civil War, and that was at least partially because he didn't know the player. Having to learn new players when they have such devastating punish games is really hard, even for the best.

Two or three months from now, if Bayo is still taking up half of all the major top 8's, then we should discuss the ban. A burst of dominance isn't enough. If this was to keep up, it would potentially be a problem, but that doesn't mean we should panic as soon as it happens. Give top players a chance to work on this and learn from their mistakes. Then we'll see if she is still so dominant.

I'm not denying that she's good. Because she's obviously top tier, and debatably the best in the game. However, those two things also applied to :pikachu64:, :foxmelee:, and :snake:. Few would argue they ruined the games they populated. We need to observe before jumping to conclusions. If all the data suggesting that bayo is ban worthy comes from one month, and we seriously consider it, then that's a panicked reaction. If we give it 3-4 months and we're still having this discussion, then we might need to do something.

But we aren't at that point yet, so let's not lose our heads over this.

And Salem is a monster, so let's not use his close victories as evidence supporting a ban unless those tournaments were also flooded with Bayo's in the top 32.
 
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Rizen

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^No one's seriously discussing a Bayo ban now either.
If we're talking about prepatch :4diddy: who had some of the best results that the game's ever seen let's not forget that we also had the titans that were pre-nerf:4sheik: :4metaknight: :4lucario: :4greninja: :4fox: :rosalina: :4luigi: :4bayonetta: :4sonic: :4falcon::4cloud: running around at various points. Heck, even prepatch :4bowser: and :4corrin: were absolutely nightmarishly good and would make most of the current cast look like they suck.

Pre-nerf Fox had a frame-2 jab that could take away 40 or 50% from you. Remember when Megafox was one of the most dominant players in the game? Yeah, prepatch Fox days.

Pre-nerf Sonic had a kill throw that killed you at 70-80% from the edge of the stage (at least until people learned how to DI it properly).
Remember when 6WX was a top 10-20 player? Yeah, prepatch Sonic days.

Pre-nerf Meta Knight had... lol. Who ever thought that this character was okay? Like, what the heck. It was beyond stupid. Half our top 8s today would be filled with MKs or pocket MKs if he hadn't gotten toned down.

The competitive landscape would look so different without patches, it wouldn't just be all Diddy Kongs. We'd have a substantially different top player base and matchup chart, so it's hard to predict who would be precisely at the top.

Prepatch Diddy, while no doubt insanely strong, would have been hotly contested by these other characters over the years, just like Meta Knight in Brawl was contested by Ice Climbers, Olimar, Snake, Falco, and Marth over the years (but ended up dominating those matchups at the highest levels toward the end, granted).

Results are not always indicative of game balance, at least immediately. It takes years sometimes for the best to settle at the top after the dust clears. Personally, I think that without any patches, Sonic would have been the game's best character today.

As Salem said, prepatch Bayonetta was probably one of the most broken things to ever touch smash (he said she was better than Brawl MK or Melee Fox, which is a strong claim; and whether you agree or not, she was certainly very strong), but she didn't even win any majors. Let that sink in.
Even with prepatch Bayo people were saying top players need to quit complaining and learn to play the game. Brawl MK was something else though. Ah, the memories.

One thing I'd like to examine is that DH keeps pulling ahead of fan favorite underdogs like Shulk and Link. Is it a Japan thing?
 
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NINTENDO Galaxy

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No, I think the Duck Hunt players have just gotten the right exposure by going to certain tournaments and getting stream time along with getting wins or frequent matches with notable players.
 

|RK|

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Everyone here knows Bayonetta is good, and I don't think anyone has said otherwise. In fact, I think most people will willingly admit she's the best character in the game. But some people seem to think pointing out perceived weaknesses or mistakes non-Bayos made = Bayo isn't good.

Anyways, I am actually curious how we determine potential for characters. Where *does* Bayonetta actually go from here? Again, not saying the two characters are close, but Mario was given as an example of a character with little potential left.

Ironically, what I hear about both Bayonetta and Mario is the footstool combos they have. At no point has Mario's full punish game been exploited at a top level. So that's one very obvious place for that to go - but it'll never happen until Zenyou becomes a top 10 player.

As for Fox, I have no clue where he goes. But unlike most characters, I haven't really seen any dips or spikes in what he can do since fair footstool became common knowledge. So I imagine he'll rise if others fall or fall if others rise. But none of what he has really goes out of style. His weaknesses are basically his disadvantage state, and that's pretty consistently not good.
 

ARGHETH

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Heck, even prepatch :4bowser: and :4corrin: were absolutely nightmarishly good and would make most of the current cast look like they suck.
I mean, prepatch Corrin wasn't really that much different. The only difference you'd actually notice in practice would be more fully charged DFS-->move stuff and a slightly stronger counter, and that's it.
 
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