Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Kofu]

And a lot of landing lag, which Cloud and Mario don't have. Strange for a boy with wings.

I really wish his hitboxes and hitstun were fixed so I could enjoy playing him again.

Hitboxes I get, but hitstun? What about Pit's hitstun ought to be fixed?

 

[san.]

He lost actually 1 set later in 2016 than in 2017, beating Holy, V115, Chrim Foish and having losses only to Larry and Zero. The difference is like 2 sets in round 2 pools.

Yeah, went to sleep after 4AM on Friday which I'm never going to do (on purpose) again since I'm too old now. I just heard about Ryo doing very well, too.

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah, went to sleep after 4AM on Friday which I'm never going to do (on purpose) again since I'm too old now. I just heard about Ryo doing very well, too.

That u-throw to n-air was the first time I've ever seen that connect and KO. Is that a more reliable kill confirm than f-air, or was the opponent's DI just right for that moment?

 

[san.]

That u-throw to n-air was the first time I've ever seen that connect and KO. Is that a more reliable kill confirm than f-air, or was the opponent's DI just right for that moment?

It was the middle of the stage, so fair might not have killed. Above a platform, it also traps the best into followups if they airdodge.

 

[Y2Kay]

The "Pit is a fair and balanced character" meme is nearly as lame as the "Mewtwo is a glass cannon" routine. Though they're true in some aspects, regulating these characters in these ancient character archetypes denies the ability to see their complexity. Also, since when has being "well rounded" been a bad thing? I get that having strengths that separate a character from the rest of the cast has some merit, but assuming that any character with a gimmick to be better than Pit is ridiculous.

I'd rather play a "well rounder" like Pit in bracket, than someone like Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong's ding dong combo is rewarding but his mediocre neutral and revolting disadvantage state makes it harder for him to win against top tiers than Pit, in my opinion.

This leads to my next point: Pit honestly isn't really an all rounder. An all rounder character, in my opinion, has access to a variety of tools that allows you to play in multiple ways, and the player has to pick the best style for a match up. Pit can't really do this. Pit can't zone with arrows, and he doesn't have the mobility options to rush-down foes. His kit is tailored to a specific play style: bait and punish

It's true that Pit is severely lacking when it comes to safe grounded pokes, but to automatically equate that to him having a bad neutral is misleading. Pit has amazingly fast start up on a lot of his moves. The only characters better than him in this department are the Mario bros. Pit players can us his extremely fast ground moves to whiff punish attacks and stuff attacks that are laggier than his. His footsie game is very respectable.

His juggle game and ledge coverage options are pretty good too. pp forward tilt, dash grab, up smash, and down smash all cover ledge options really well. His aerials have good active frames for covering ledge snaps. And up smash makes it difficult to land for several characters.

He is lacking in kill confirms and raw killpower, but he does have fast smash attacks with good (not great) knock back, a super armored horizontally moving side B, and he has a forward throw that can kill well with rage or when he's close to the ledge. It's not spectacular, far from the "worst kill power in the game"

Pit's kit is definitely good enough for him to stay in mid tier, and I doubt he will fall into low tier anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong though, the dude has his issues. Pit's lack of kill confirms, safe ground pokes, and kind of ehhhh recovery does hurt him, but he's enough redeeming factors to still have him be a coherent and viable character in this game.

 

[Myollnir]

Actually, since he's on the brain now, what do people think of Kirby ?

Kirby... is an interesting character. He can either work really well or won't work at all. There's no in between.

His kit either allows him to shut down the ennemy or doesn't let him get to play the game.

's strengths are extremely match-up dependant :

- Deadly combo game, but only against fastfallers or heavyweights. Otherwise he just has 20-30% combos at very low %, and almost none after that.
- Best crouch in the game bar none. Kirby actually crouches for the whole duration of his D-Tilt, as opposed to . And by whole I mean the start-up and cooldown, too. Which allows him to beat a lot of moves on the ground, most grabs, and things like Mario's dash U-Smash. Easily one of the best moves to shut down grounded approaches in the game.

- Inhale. Kirby can use copy abilities much better than his opponent in most scenarios, whether it's because he has true reliable combos into them ( ), or because some of them are INSANELY buffed for Kirby ( comes to mind ), or because they're super effective against his opponent (). It's the most underdevelopped part of the character.

- Edgeguarding. If his opponent has no disjoint, he can just D-air footstool them and kill them at 50+%. And if their recovery is terrible, F-air/B-air will do the trick.
He has a really good ledge game, too, but can't punish ledgejump unless you read it or cover it, because he can't chase people. Worth noting that inhale covers jump, neutral and attack every time.

Against characters he can abuse his strengths (or most of them), he feels like a really good character.
If we only consider relevant tier characters, he has a good to evenish match-up against :

However, loses hard to almost anything else.

Moreover, the character suffers from an extremely problematic trait. He requires a defensive playstyle, and his playstyle revolves around not getting hit.

Quite similar to in that playing both characters is exhausting. And I think we all know how detrimental to her this is. Sheik doesn't have Kirby's kill options, but her neutral game is vastly superior.

's advantage state is also one of the worst in the game (it's still an advantage state, though, lol), due to poor vertical mobility and range.

Since we are humans and can't play perfectly all the time, getting the most out of any hit is very important, and I'm not essentially talking about true combos here. That makes juggling ( ), ledgetrapping ( ) a lot more useful than the neutral game.

I've come to the conclusion that you can't win every single interaction, even if you're supposed to ().
Nor you can run away effectively all the game (). This is too mentally draining to be used as a viable strategy. I have a LOT of respect for people like Wrath who have the ability to play lame.

If people could play properly all the time, we wouldn't see Zack losing to .

Fear is a real thing, and some characters thrive off of that ( , , ...)

They can get away with a lot more stuff than they should, because Grab/WT/TSRK is always on their opponents' mind.

Back to , he's a difficult character to play, because he requires a lot of effort. If you don't play perfectly and react well everytime, you will get bodied most of the time. He also requires a ton of precision & knowledge ; his combos aren't reaction based, you need to learn everything.

To conclude, I'll say that is unviable. Too much effort for too little reward. He does have room to grow and will probably become better as the game progresses, but he is and will stay unrelevant. He does have a few niches, though.

As a result, I wouldn't recommand the character to anyone except as a secondary for a player that is already doing well with their main and want an additional answer to those specific characters.

 

[Nu~]

The "Pit is a fair and balanced character" meme is nearly as lame as the "Mewtwo is a glass cannon" routine. Though they're true in some aspects, regulating these characters in these ancient character archetypes denies the ability to see their complexity. Also, since when has being "well rounded" been a bad thing? I get that having strengths that separate a character from the rest of the cast has some merit, but assuming that any character with a gimmick to be better than Pit is ridiculous.

I'd rather play a "well rounder" like Pit in bracket, than someone like Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong's ding dong combo is rewarding but his mediocre neutral and revolting disadvantage state makes it harder for him to win against top tiers than Pit, in my opinion.

This leads to my next point: Pit honestly isn't really an all rounder. An all rounder character, in my opinion, has access to a variety of tools that allows you to play in multiple ways, and the player has to pick the best style for a match up. Pit can't really do this. Pit can't zone with arrows, and he doesn't have the mobility options to rush-down foes. His kit is tailored to a specific play style: bait and punish

It's true that Pit is severely lacking when it comes to safe grounded pokes, but to automatically equate that to him having a bad neutral is misleading. Pit has amazingly fast start up on a lot of his moves. The only characters better than him in this department are the Mario bros. Pit players can us his extremely fast ground moves to whiff punish attacks and stuff attacks that are laggier than his. His footsie game is very respectable.

His juggle game and ledge coverage options are pretty good too. pp forward tilt, dash grab, up smash, and down smash all cover ledge options really well. His aerials have good active frames for covering ledge snaps. And up smash makes it difficult to land for several characters.

He is lacking in kill confirms and raw killpower, but he does have fast smash attacks with good (not great) knock back, a super armored horizontally moving side B, and he has a forward throw that can kill well with rage or when he's close to the ledge. It's not spectacular, far from the "worst kill power in the game"

Pit's kit is definitely good enough for him to stay in mid tier, and I doubt he will fall into low tier anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong though, the dude has his issues. Pit's lack of kill confirms, safe ground pokes, and kind of ehhhh recovery does hurt him, but he's enough redeeming factors to still have him be a coherent and viable character in this game.

While I agree with the entirety of this post (THANK U for clarifying that Pit isn't an all-arounder), I just wanna state one personal, possibly insignificant gripe I have with one move Pit has in particular:
His F-air

Quite possibly the most frustrating F-air in the game with its overly high startup in relation to its damage and range + disjoint. (11 frames start up but deals 7% and has toon link tier disjoint?)
Pisses me off more because I love the animation for it lol.


It's fun offstage, but it makes pit's horizontal approach game all the more difficult. Further pushing him into an "attack second" playstyle.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Potentially slightly controversial opinion: I think Diddy Kong () might be slightly overrated. If ZeRo drops him and goes full-time Bayonetta we'll likely see Diddy's results plummet. He probably loses more than two MUs too. Legit question: How many MUs does Cloud () lose? Or Sheik ()? Based on MU charts, Cloud seem to lose to Sheik, and potentially Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Pikachu. Sheik only seems to lose to Rosalina & Luma (based on MU charts). Diddy could potentially lose to 4-6 characters or so. If he does, then he's probably not top 3.

Can we try to figure out where Diddy Kong should be before ZeRo drops him? Or can we only accurately place him if that happens? I'm worried ZeRo's skill is inflating the character's placement on the tier list.

 

[|RK|]

I'll agree with Myo that Kirby requires a lot of knowledge. I think people assume he's really basic, but I doubt other characters need to know the exact variations on conversions for most of the cast.

Nothing is consistent - some characters avoid the basics entirely. So most Kirby players actually have no idea what they're doing in terms of their combo game/damage output.

That and Kirby is incredibly draining to play at times. Huge comebacks are exhilarating, but like... really hard. Without the neutral game of Sheik or anything like that, your best bet is the extra hitstun you get from rage, and possibly a gimp.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pit and Dark pit always seem pretty decent or good to me until I realize they can struggle with killing and while they seem to be a jack of all trades kind of character I can't think of a single thing that says, that's a huge strength of this character.

 

[Illuminose]

kirby's greatest fundamental flaw is that the character loses to being lamed out. as Myollnir said, kirby requires a defensive playstyle, which i agree is mentally exhausting and draining to play alongside a bad advantage state. however, the greater issue is that kirby lacks effective approach options and the ability to force an approach. it's not even a matter of running away because you can play around kirby in a threatening range effectively with good (especially disjointed) hitboxes and/or good mobility. i feel like most people who have some issue with kirby struggle because they overcomplicate the matchup and put themselves in too many risky scenarios. that's the reason that many of the top characters in the cast just steamroll kirby, excluding certain characters (sheik/zss/fox) where the combination of punish game and low profile crouch/small size can actually make the mus acceptable. i find the idea that kirby has a decent mu against bayo very questionable because the combination of dtilt and incredible anti-airs should mean that bayo wins neutral, combined with effective edgeguarding and a camping game that is nigh impossible for kirby to deal with. anyways, we do have the same conclusion, that kirby just isn't a good character.

Frihetsanka i think diddy's correct placement is 4th or 5th in the cast, depending on what you think of rosalina. your conclusions regarding matchups are basically sound - sheik and cloud probably each lose one matchup, rosa and sheik respectively, whereas diddy definitely loses at least 3 (rosa/olimar/mega man) and possibly more depending who you ask (plumbers mainly, fox is another possibility). just by matchups i think it's obvious who the top 3 is, and diddy isn't one of those characters. however, he's still notably better than the other characters below him, excluding rosa and sonic who are rather close imo. diddy is in the top 3 most challenging matchups for bayo, cloud, and sheik, and generally performs well against the cast as a whole, though, so i don't think he's going anywhere at any point in the near future. he's still absolutely a fine pick to solo main.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Frihetsanka i think diddy's correct placement is 4th or 5th in the cast, depending on what you think of rosalina.[/QUOTE]I agree, 4th or 5th sounds accurate to me. I'm currently leaning towards #4. While Rosalina doesn't lose many MUs she also doesn't seem to win that many MUs against top tiers (she does beat lots of lower tier characters though). Still, I've seen people say that Diddy is #1 or #2, and I don't think that's true.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Anyone got vods to the IGX texas tourney that mk leo and Ryo was at? Super curious how that set went between the two and if its on yt?

 

[Rizen]

In the past I've explained why Bayo and Cloud are top 3. Here's the case for :

While Cloud and Bayo are over tuned, Diddy is an extremely strong fundamental character. His frame data greatly overshadows both Bayo and Cloud's. IMO he has the best neutral in the game. Dtilt is a shade away from Ryu's Utilt and on a character with a great ground game. If Diddy's not stupid he should never be punished for Dtilt. It's frame 4 FAF 19 for 5.5% and true combos into kill options like Usmash and Fair. That's crazy. Diddy also has a good grab/throw game and a 12% Bthrow. Banana peels to remotely cover options without him needing to do anything and item tosses are some of the best moves in the game. His Utilt can kill if needed. He also has an Ftilt, maybe. In any situation Diddy can combo, he's dealing 30% or more with a read. Diddy has the 11th best walk and 16th best run to back up his ground game. While Diddy's air movement is lacking, his frame 4 jumpsquat and Fair that has the range of swords means he can go to the air in neutral. Monkey flip can be risky but still is a decent option in neutral because the range and command grab. Diddy has no trouble killing from neutral or advantage. Sheik's neutral is better but has less reward so imo Diddy's wins.

In advantage Diddy has a lesser version of Fox's vortex. His juggling with Uair is good. His ledge trapping is very good with bananas, peanuts to force an action safely and the above explained neutral. Diddy can safely land kills at average kill %s with Dtilt, Fair, Utilt and (correct me if I'm wrong) his B/Fthrows both stock cap near the ledge.

Diddy's disadvantage is above average. After watching the set of ZeRo vs Ken's sonic I thought "Diddy can tank" at the end of game 5 (he also can out-neutral Sonic). Monkey flip helps negate his poor air speed. Diddy's upB trajectory can be guided as it flies and has long range, which is complimented by high skill levels. You can weave around intercepting opponents. He doesn't get ledge trapped hard either with flip, Fair and his frame data.

Diddy's results are top 3 too.
__________________________
TBH I think ZeRo will always come back to Diddy, unless he's nerfed or some infinite is found on him. What MUs does Diddy lose except Rosalina- slightly?

Sheik isn't as good as Diddy/Cloud/Bayo because the lack of a clutch factor and low reward on hit but she's 4th. These 4 characters should make the top tier.

PS finally finished watching the Arms Saga. I think the commentators might have been "on something" at the end.

 

[Illusion.]

Anyone got vods to the IGX texas tourney that mk leo and Ryo was at? Super curious how that set went between the two and if its on yt?

https://m.twitch.tv/igxgamingexpo?desktop-redirect=true

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik's reward on hit is higher than Diddy's.

 

[Gamegenie222]

https://m.twitch.tv/igxgamingexpo?desktop-redirect=true

cool thanks alot

 

[Nemesis561]

Potentially slightly controversial opinion: I think Diddy Kong () might be slightly overrated. If ZeRo drops him and goes full-time Bayonetta we'll likely see Diddy's results plummet. He probably loses more than two MUs too. Legit question: How many MUs does Cloud () lose? Or Sheik ()? Based on MU charts, Cloud seem to lose to Sheik, and potentially Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Pikachu. Sheik only seems to lose to Rosalina & Luma (based on MU charts). Diddy could potentially lose to 4-6 characters or so. If he does, then he's probably not top 3.

Can we try to figure out where Diddy Kong should be before ZeRo drops him? Or can we only accurately place him if that happens? I'm worried ZeRo's skill is inflating the character's placement on the tier list.

honestly, I think it's gotten to the point where Bayo is clearly number one, and then after that, Diddy, Cloud, Sheik, and Rosa can honestly be mixed and matched between 2-5. I don't think it's really worth the effort of seriously scrutinizing their positions because they're so close together. Just my 2 cents though

 

[|RK|]

kirby's greatest fundamental flaw is that the character loses to being lamed out. as Myollnir said, kirby requires a defensive playstyle, which i agree is mentally exhausting and draining to play alongside a bad advantage state. however, the greater issue is that kirby lacks effective approach options and the ability to force an approach. it's not even a matter of running away because you can play around kirby in a threatening range effectively with good (especially disjointed) hitboxes and/or good mobility. i feel like most people who have some issue with kirby struggle because they overcomplicate the matchup and put themselves in too many risky scenarios. that's the reason that many of the top characters in the cast just steamroll kirby, excluding certain characters (sheik/zss/fox) where the combination of punish game and low profile crouch/small size can actually make the mus acceptable. i find the idea that kirby has a decent mu against bayo very questionable because the combination of dtilt and incredible anti-airs should mean that bayo wins neutral, combined with effective edgeguarding and a camping game that is nigh impossible for kirby to deal with. anyways, we do have the same conclusion, that kirby just isn't a good character.

It's not going to be a widely accepted opinion, but Kirby has two extremely useful assets against Bayo - small size/floatiness (for SDI purposes) and reward off of grab.

Besides that, she's one of the characters he can true combo into the ability on. Past that, it's insane patience and holding the charge.

There's more to the MU, but I know Myo believes that seeing as he was a former Kirby main (now mains Bayo), and is a very good labber...

Komota also believes it in part because he almost beat Tyroy in January. But really, it's hard to discuss controversial things until something proves it. That's typically why I don't mention Kirby anymore - I'll say something if he shows up somewhere, though.

 

[Rizen]

Sheik's reward on hit is higher than Diddy's.

Explain.

 

[Illuminose]

theory-based arguments have to be grounded in matchups, or else you're basically just stating a bunch of things about the character. it's very easy to make one character sound better or worse than another character without much evidence at all just by writing strengths and weaknesses in a certain way. also Rizen several things in your post are just incorrect, as you make sweeping assertions and gloss over the weaknesses in diddy kong's options. for one, sheik's reward on hit is just far better than diddy's in pretty much all respects. diddy has nothing on the sheer damage output in sheik's combos and versatility in combo starters. diddy's up throw does 5 damage, fair does 10, bair does 9, and uair does 6. uthrow bair bair does 23%, while uthrow bair/fair do 15/14 respectively, which goes up 2% if you add a pummel. past where you can get those combos, your only combo out of grab is uthrow play uair, which does 11%. glide toss banana dtilt dsmash does 21%/22%. yeah, you can kind of trap landings and 'vortex' at low percents, but characters with decent disadvantage states don't really have to worry about that too much.

furthermore, the statement that diddy should never get punished for dtilt is just false. first on hit: at low percent, diddy doesn't actually have enough hit advantage to confirm into grab or anything for that matter, meaning that he can get punished for trying to get a follow-up. dtilt fair doesn't usually kill at decent kill percents unless the opponent has poor di, though it is definitely a great option for ko confirms in general. furthermore, dtilt is -2 on drop and -9 on oos. therefore, it is generally safe when spaced, but aside from doing another spaced dtilt, there isn't actually a safe shield pressure option. if you accidentally dtilt too close, you will get shield grabbed or punished by certain oos options. it essentially comes down to an rps game if you want to get something out of pressuring shield with dtilt, one where you have an advantage but can still either get nothing or get punished. if you go for grab to punish holding shield, you can get punished by a fast jab or spot dodge->punish. if you go for fair to catch jump, you can easily get grabbed or potentially punished in some other way (like a dash attack) depending on the character. if they roll, you have to call it out. the other main mixup is waiting and seeing what they do. the caveat is that you can use dtilt pressure and systematically adapt/condition them according to which options they tend to pick, so it can still be quite effective. there are definitely players (even top players) who don't have a good understanding of the rps and thus will pick similar options, so dtilt pressure is a lot more effective against them.

other things: diddy's juggling is pretty average, though his ledge trap game is definitely top tier. uair is fast, but the hitbox kinda sucks and diddy doesn't really have the aerial mobility to cover landings consistently. utilt is a good anti-air and ok for extending juggles, but they just aren't worth going for in most scenarios. your goal as diddy to compensate for mediocre damage output is to ledge trap and get as much damage as you can. his disadvantage state is really not good because monkey flip is so vulnerable and predictable. it can help him get out of disadvantage, but it can just as easily get him killed as we've seen so many times in zero sets. his recovery has good distance but can also get him killed at any percent on a more frequent basis than most good characters.

you did briefly ask which matchups diddy loses aside from rosa: mega man and olimar for sure, arguably mario/luigi, potentially fox as well. mega man and olimar both have specific tools (lemons and pikmin) that make banana usage much less effective and have the options to deal with diddy kong's aerial pressure fairly well, meaning that they actually win neutral. olimar's low profile and incredible damage output (especially compared to diddy) are contributing factors in his matchups advantage. diddy basically has to use a lot of shield and falling aerials to try and penetrate olimar's defense, utilizing his superior cqc options and ledge trapping to fight back. mega man's edgeguarding is also particularly brutal against diddy kong, but diddy can use a combination of ledge trapping and more consistent kill options to edge out mega man. these matchups are still hard for diddy even though he can abuse some of the flaws that these characters possess.

 

[Rizen]

theory-based arguments have to be grounded in matchups, or else you're basically just stating a bunch of things about the character. it's very easy to make one character sound better or worse than another character without much evidence at all just by writing strengths and weaknesses in a certain way. also Rizen several things in your post are just incorrect, as you make sweeping assertions and gloss over the weaknesses in diddy kong's options. for one, sheik's reward on hit is just far better than diddy's in pretty much all respects. diddy has nothing on the sheer damage output in sheik's combos and versatility in combo starters. diddy's up throw does 5 damage, fair does 10, bair does 9, and uair does 6. uthrow bair bair does 23%, while uthrow bair/fair do 15/14 respectively, which goes up 2% if you add a pummel. past where you can get those combos, your only combo out of grab is uthrow play uair, which does 11%. glide toss banana dtilt dsmash does 21%/22%. yeah, you can kind of trap landings and 'vortex' at low percents, but characters with decent disadvantage states don't really have to worry about that too much.

My post isn't only theory. I included results and even a video example.
You claim Diddy's reward is worse that Sheik's but don't actually say why Sheik's is better. You're only talking about chains and Diddy can do things like Fair for 10% while Sheik's equivalent of Bair does 7/8%. Diddy's Bthrow does 12% and Sheik's best throw deals 7%. Combos don't work forever. You're also ignoring how Dtilt combos into F/Usmash and kills at 120%ish.

furthermore, the statement that diddy should never get punished for dtilt is just false. first on hit: at low percent, diddy doesn't actually have enough hit advantage to confirm into grab or anything for that matter, meaning that he can get punished for trying to get a follow-up. dtilt fair doesn't usually kill at decent kill percents unless the opponent has poor di, though it is definitely a great option for ko confirms in general. furthermore, dtilt is -2 on drop and -9 on oos. therefore, it is generally safe when spaced, but aside from doing another spaced dtilt, there isn't actually a safe shield pressure option. if you accidentally dtilt too close, you will get shield grabbed or punished by certain oos options..

Try reading my post:

If Diddy's not stupid he should never be punished for Dtilt. .

Of course you'll be punished if you use a move wrong. That's why you don't throw out Dtilt at lower %s. Are you really trying to say a move with Dtilt's range that's only -2 on shield drop is unsafe? Really? It ends frame 19; humans can barely react that fast.

other things: diddy's juggling is pretty average, though his ledge trap game is definitely top tier. uair is fast, but the hitbox kinda sucks and diddy doesn't really have the aerial mobility to cover landings consistently. utilt is a good anti-air and ok for extending juggles, but they just aren't worth going for in most scenarios. your goal as diddy to compensate for mediocre damage output is to ledge trap and get as much damage as you can. his disadvantage state is really not good because monkey flip is so vulnerable and predictable. it can help him get out of disadvantage, but it can just as easily get him killed as we've seen so many times in zero sets. his recovery has good distance but can also get him killed at any percent on a more frequent basis than most good characters.


you did briefly ask which matchups diddy loses aside from rosa: mega man and olimar for sure, arguably mario/luigi, potentially fox as well. mega man and olimar both have specific tools (lemons and pikmin) that make banana usage much less effective and have the options to deal with diddy kong's aerial pressure fairly well, meaning that they actually win neutral. olimar's low profile and incredible damage output (especially compared to diddy) are contributing factors in his matchups advantage. diddy basically has to use a lot of shield and falling aerials to try and penetrate olimar's defense, utilizing his superior cqc options and ledge trapping to fight back. mega man's edgeguarding is also particularly brutal against diddy kong, but diddy can use a combination of ledge trapping and more consistent kill options to edge out mega man. these matchups are still hard for diddy even though he can abuse some of the flaws that these characters possess.

Who outside of top tiers can juggle as well as Diddy? Who outside of top tier has a better disadvantage state than Diddy? I covered exactly why his disadvantage is good. The whole myth of Diddy has a bad recovery needs to die. He has a mobility burst flip, long Fair and steerable long upB. If you think Diddy's recovery is bad watch the ZeRo vs Salem Evo set.
What's the record of Mega Man or Olimar vs Diddy? I know a mega man took a set off ZeRo in the past (what was the name?) but so has Palutena. What Olimars have beaten notable Diddys?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Explain.

better edgeguarding, better ledgetrapping, better combo game, higher ending damage off a single hit or grab combo(sheik grabbing/hitting you at 0 or 50 will almost always result in more damage taken than if diddy were to do the same), ability to kill at lower percents off a string or combo, etc.
difference is that diddy does significantly more damage off trades, more damage/stock taking potential off hard reads above 100ish vs most of the cast, and does higher damage per hit.
statement was pretty unquestionable.

jsuk, i'm saying this as a sheik/diddy comain, so this isn't me trying to underrate him aimlessly(though i do think he's way worse than people think). play both characters and you can see that sheik is rewarded far more for winning neutral and has an easier time doing so if your opponent isn't an imbecile about monkey flip, fair and banana counterplay.

 

[Rizen]

better edgeguarding, better ledgetrapping, better combo game, higher ending damage off a single hit or grab combo(sheik grabbing/hitting you at 0 or 50 will almost always result in more damage taken than if diddy were to do the same), ability to kill at lower percents off a string or combo, etc.
difference is that diddy does significantly more damage off trades, more damage/stock taking potential off hard reads above 100ish vs most of the cast, and does higher damage per hit.
statement was pretty unquestionable.

I agree Sheik has better edge guarding, idk about ledge trapping, I think she has better low % combos but Diddy pulls ahead later. IMO Diddy can kill better than Sheik, not that sheik's bad at it.
If you agree with this part we're arguing semantics at this point. Although I wouldn't say Diddy needs to make hard reads as he's very fast and safe.

 

[Illuminose]

My post isn't only theory. I included results and even a video example.
You claim Diddy's reward is worse that Sheik's but don't actually say why Sheik's is better. You're only talking about chains and Diddy can do things like Fair for 10% while Sheik's equivalent of Bair does 7/8%. Diddy's Bthrow does 12% and Sheik's best throw deals 7%. Combos don't work forever. You're also ignoring how Dtilt combos into F/Usmash and kills at 120%ish.

the fact that you don't know sheik has better punishes than diddy is kind of insane. for example, diddy's punish on fox at low percent is uthrow bair bair (23%). sheik's is at least 30-40% and easily more (as high as 60-70%) if you know the correct ways to follow di and extend combos. she can also transition her low percent combos into stocks on smashville and vs characters with exploitable recoveries. she has many ways to start combos, and has good true combos at pretty much all relevant percent ranges. sheik's best combo finisher (bouncing fish) does more damage than diddy's up throw up air. i'm not going to explain sheik's entire punish game because it is impossible to list all of the possible ways she can combo her opponent in a succinct manner (unlike diddy's which i can list and explain in ~1 paragraph). please watch void or even mr.r play and then tell me again that sheik doesn't have an incredible punish game.

Try reading my post:

Of course you'll be punished if you use a move wrong. That's why you don't throw out Dtilt at lower %s. Are you really trying to say a move with Dtilt's range that's only -2 on shield drop is unsafe? Really? It ends frame 19; humans can barely react that fast.

a lot of diddy's pressure stems for dtilt and banana because pressuring with other options (aerials) is significantly less safe. after i throw the banana on shield, one of the go-to options is using down tilt. sometimes i can't pull a banana safely at low percent, or i have to give up stage to do so. you can't just avoid using down tilt until higher percents because you feel like it, it's too integral to diddy's neutral. fundamental diddy pressure, which heavily involves dtilt, is not necessarily safe at every single percent range because the shield grab at close range and rps scenario i mentioned are always valid. also if you can't react to a move that is -9 on shield, in shield grab range, and shield grab then you need to get better at reacting. all of stuff is applied frequently in top level play.

Who outside of top tiers can juggle as well as Diddy? Who outside of top tier has a better disadvantage state than Diddy? I covered exactly why his disadvantage is good. The whole myth of Diddy has a bad recovery needs to die. He has a mobility burst flip, long Fair and steerable long upB. If you think Diddy's recovery is bad watch the ZeRo vs Salem Evo set.

i'm not sure what you consider top tier so i'll just list everyone that is better at juggling than diddy: cloud, rosalina, fox, bayonetta, marth/lucina, corrin, zss, dk, pit, g&w, falcon, mk, and mewtwo at minimum. diddy's juggling tools in general are really far from characters that are good at juggling, and significantly less rewarding than just trying to get one landing read to get them to the ledge. i'm not even going to entertain rating diddy's disadvantage state and will instead simply say that it is exploitable by characters with good advantage state. diddy's recovery being bad is not a myth, especially considering how good recoveries generally are in this game. if you get a decently strong hit on monkey flip and hit the diddy kong out, it doesn't matter how tricky you are with up b unless your opponent just fails to execute. if diddy loses his double jump and is offstage, there's also a good likelihood he dies. every time he uses barrels, he's at risk of dying because all it takes is one small hit on the barrels.

What's the record of Mega Man or Olimar vs Diddy? I know a mega man took a set off ZeRo in the past (what was the name?) but so has Palutena. What Olimars have beaten notable Diddys?

i explained why these matchups are bad. they've barely occurred in top level play because there's only one olimar and one mega man good enough to contest the best diddy, but virtually every diddy player agrees that these matchups are losing.

 

[Rizen]

the fact that you don't know sheik has better punishes than diddy is kind of insane. for example, diddy's punish on fox at low percent is uthrow bair bair (23%). sheik's is at least 30-40% and easily more (as high as 60-70%) if you know the correct ways to follow di and extend combos. she can also transition her low percent combos into stocks on smashville and vs characters with exploitable recoveries. she has many ways to start combos, and has good true combos at pretty much all relevant percent ranges. sheik's best combo finisher (bouncing fish) does more damage than diddy's up throw up air. i'm not going to explain sheik's entire punish game because it is impossible to list all of the possible ways she can combo her opponent in a succinct manner (unlike diddy's which i can list and explain in ~1 paragraph). please watch void or even mr.r play and then tell me again that sheik doesn't have an incredible punish game.

a lot of diddy's pressure stems for dtilt and banana because pressuring with other options (aerials) is significantly less safe. after i throw the banana on shield, one of the go-to options is using down tilt. sometimes i can't pull a banana safely at low percent, or i have to give up stage to do so. you can't just avoid using down tilt until higher percents because you feel like it, it's too integral to diddy's neutral. fundamental diddy pressure, which heavily involves dtilt, is not necessarily safe at every single percent range because the shield grab at close range and rps scenario i mentioned are always valid. also if you can't react to a move that is -9 on shield, in shield grab range, and shield grab then you need to get better at reacting. all of stuff is applied frequently in top level play.

Your posts are full of strawmen and show you lack basic reading comprehension. I just said Sheik has better low % combos in my last post. You're completely ignoring my points about Dtilt>smashes and how not every interaction is a combo.

Yes if Diddy spaces Dtilt wrong it can be grabbed OoS- good thing it has the range to avoid that. You don't Dtilt shields in neutral that's why grab exists!

i'm not sure what you consider top tier

Really? You don't know what top tier is? Then you go and list a bunch of characters who are undisputed top tiers?

I'm done talking to you. Feelmeup had a good counter post but this is ridiculous.

 

[ARGHETH]

Really? You don't know what top tier is? Then you go and list a bunch of characters who are undisputed top tiers?

Lucina, Corrin, DK, Pit, G%W, Falcon, and MK ("at minimum") are undisputed top tiers now? Nice to know.

 

[Y2Kay]

Diddy Kong's down tilt isn't even safe on hit against characters with fast ground normals at low percents. Greninja can get out with his frame 3 jab.

 

[Rizen]

Lucina, Corrin, DK, Pit, G%W, Falcon, and MK ("at minimum") are undisputed top tiers now? Nice to know.

Do you really want to play this game?


Edit, I'm only responding to productive posts. Like I said, there is a good counter argument but don't waste everyone's time with this kind of thing.

Diddy Kong's down tilt isn't even safe on hit against characters with fast ground normals at low percents. Greninja can get out with his frame 3 jab.

Don't Dtilt at low %s.

The real question is how much does ZeRo carry Diddy? ZeRo is an outlier having almost twice the score as the next highest player. However the cream rises to the top as we've seen with Bayo and Cloud. ZeRo doesn't play Shulk in tourneys (inB4 the few examples where he does). You need a top tier to have top tier results. Players like Elegant and Ranai do well with Luigi and Villager but don't break the glass ceiling and the characters don't have nearly the results of top tiers. Diddy is currently ranked 2nd on Das Koopa's rankings with a significant gap between the top 3 characters and other top tiers.
Bayonetta: 499
Diddy Kong: 482
Cloud: 388
Sheik: 317.5
Sonic: 305
Mario: 279.5
Fox: 278
Rosalina & Luma: 233.5
Zero Suit Samus: 228
Ryu: 175.5
Mewtwo: 165.5

Edit 2 and with Das Koopa's update the gap between Diddy and non-top 3s widens.
Bayonetta: 516
Diddy Kong: 512
Cloud: 410

 

[Das Koopa]

Spoiler: Get On My Level 2017 (July 28th-30th) (East Canada) (438 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: ANTi ,
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Mistake
4th: San
5th: SuperGirlKels
5th: Fatality
7th: Blacktwins ,
7th: Angel Cortes
9th: DarkAura
9th: Strike
9th: Xyro ,
9th: Yoh ,
13th: iModerz
13th: Deathorse ,
13th: Fwed
13th: THUNDER

Spoiler: MechaCon 2017 (July 29th) (South) (95 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Samsora
2nd: Captain Zack
3rd: BrawlerG31
4th: BSP
5th: C. Falcon
5th: co-op
7th: Gingah
7th: The Forkies

Spoiler: Super SmashNest v17 (July 29th) (Pacific Northwest) (88 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Captain L ,
2nd: Shinkou
3rd: FoCus ,
4th: Kantrip
5th: SilentRain ,
5th: Zak
7th: Justice ,
7th: Braixen ,

Spoiler: Defend the North 2017 (July 29th-30th) (Tristate) (85 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Dill ,
3rd: dekillsage ,
4th: Ralphie ,
5th: Sinji
5th: Frozen
7th: HelpR
7th: Edwin ,

Spoiler: International Gaming Expo (July 29th-30th) (South) (91 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: Ryo ,
3rd: Konga
4th: Whispy ,
5th: Sol
5th: Locus
7th: Cali
7th: RED9 ,

Spoiler: Unrivaled VIII (July 29th) (Florida) (42 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: dyr
2nd: Riot
3rd: Myran
4th: Duffo

Spoiler: Gambit: Street Fight (July 29th) (Southwest) (63 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Saiki
2nd: SS ,
3rd: Silver ,
4th: Apa~

Spoiler: TNLS: Dr. Copter Saga (July 29th) (Southeast) (40 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pipp ,
2nd: Dr. Copter
3rd: Lv^Ludo
4th: Winks ,

Spoiler: Smash 4 Powered by Oomba (July 29th) (Rocky Mountains) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: BANG!
2nd: Luhtie
3rd: sinnyboo242
4th: Jesus

Spoiler: Alternate End (July 30th) (Midwest) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: NiTe
2nd: PowPow
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Panda Bair

Spoiler: Alaska Smash Bash (July 29th) (Alaska & Territories) (23 Entrants) Category 1)

1st: Agni ,
2nd: Slow Hand ,
3rd: Buckstrom ,
4th: POUND

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 516
Diddy Kong: 512
Cloud: 410
Sheik: 344
Sonic: 316.5
Fox: 296
Mario: 295
Rosalina & Luma: 246
Zero Suit Samus: 236
Ryu: 179.5
Mewtwo: 169
Corrin: 127
Mega Man: 119
Meta Knight: 116.5
Donkey Kong: 113
Pikachu: 112
Peach: 107.5
Ness: 102.5
Captain Falcon: 100
Marth: 97.5
Luigi: 96
Villager: 93.5
Bowser: 82
Greninja: 81.5
Lucina: 66.5
Toon Link: 64.5
Olimar: 63.5
Lucas: 62.5
R.O.B.: 62
Samus: 52.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Lucario: 46.5
Yoshi: 43.5
Little Mac: 42
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 29
Wario: 26.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Charizard: 25.5
Link: 22.5
Pac-Man: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

 

[Illuminose]

Your posts are full of strawmen and show you lack basic reading comprehension. I just said Sheik has better low % combos in my last post. You're completely ignoring my points about Dtilt>smashes and how not every interaction is a combo.

i didn't ignore either of your points. those are kill confirms, sheik has those too. for a more complete explanation: diddy is generally more consistent at killing than sheik, and has his own combo starters. sheik has extended combo trees at mid percents as well as low percents. at high percents, she has her own confirms/combos into kills (fair bouncing fish depending on char, ftilt uair 50/50, dtilt uair, soft nair bouncing fish, needles bouncing fish, uthrow uair, soft bair bouncing fish, uair dragdown dsmash). diddy has better kill confirms, but not more, and sheik has a much higher damaging combo game at low and mid percents. it's also easier for her to set up combos than diddy because a lot of her moves lead into combos (grab, fair, nair, ftilt, dtilt, bair, utilt), and she can start highly damaging combos off almost all of those. sheik is also very good at resets and maintaining advantage state because she can carry combos onto platforms, set up tech chases, and easily cover or even frame trap air dodges with quick tilts/aerials/bouncing fish. sheik's overall punish game is better than diddy's, except that diddy is more consistent at landing his ko conversions.

Yes if Diddy spaces Dtilt wrong it can be grabbed OoS- good thing it has the range to avoid that. You don't Dtilt shields in neutral that's why grab exists!

i main diddy kong and watch top level diddy play frequently. you do dtilt shields in neutral, it's integral to basic diddy pressure and top diddy kong players do it frequently in every single set they play. it's not unsafe on hit at low percent, there's just no true follow-up so you need to go for a mixup or no follow-up instead. you're essentially saying to diddy mains, including the best players of diddy, that they shouldn't use one of diddy's safest and best pressure tools at low percent just because there's no true follow-up.

Really? You don't know what top tier is? Then you go and list a bunch of characters who are undisputed top tiers?

this was an unnecessary jab. many of the characters i listed may or may not be considered top tier depending on your opinion of those characters, and you said yourself that you think 4 characters (bayo/cloud/diddy/sheik) compose top tier. i decided for the sake of simplicity to include all of them, and it's pointless to exclude top tiers when this is an argument that diddy is worse than sheik.

 

[Routa]

I think Pit's biggest problem is the lack of reward from hits. It is really annoying to win neutral and get very little reward in comparison to characters with even better neutral getting higher reward than you.

Atm the reason why Pit is still alive is thanks to his Dash. He is very good at punishing whiffs (even tho reward is low) with DA and DG. The whole idea of Pit is to bait with movement and then punish with quick option. If we removed that he would fall apart. I won't comment if he is good or not. I have had mixed opinions about his viability lately.

Speaking of movement I do think that people aren't using movement to bait out stuff and to avoid moves as much as they should. Characters like Wario, Pit and Tink get quite a bit from using movement to create situations.

 

[ARGHETH]

Do you really want to play this game?

You know what? Yes, I do.

i'm not sure what you consider top tier so i'll just list everyone that is better at juggling than diddy: cloud, rosalina, fox, bayonetta, marth/lucina, corrin, zss, dk, pit, g&w, falcon, mk, and mewtwo at minimum.

This is the post. Note the "i'm not sure what you consider top tier" part. This causes Illuminose to post "everyone that is better at juggling than diddy" to keep his bases covered. This includes top tiers, but also a bunch of characters no one thinks is top tier. So if you really need his answer spelled out for you, its Lucina, Corrin, DK, Pit, G&W, Falcon, MK, and Mewtwo, along with other possible characters.

 

[PJB]

I brought this up awhile back, but in light of bayonetta dominating at least this thread (if not smash 4 itself quite yet), I'd like to revisit it- I strongly believe that lucario is an excellent choice as a secondary to use against bayo. I feel lucario has flaws that hold him back as a solo main, but his tools really are strong against what bayo likes to do.

Is bayo camping you with bullet arts? Good, take damage and build aura, if you get in and can hit her, great! If not, camp her back with your projectile that now kills because you have rage+aura. Bayo playing more aggressive? Perfect, punish her overextensions with your strong low percent combo game, and trade if necessary, they are always in your favor. Lucario also has solid survivability so that outside of bayo ladder, he shouldn't be dying before he gets aura. I'm not saying lucario beats bayo, but I think that he could potentially be a valuable character to play in the meta going forward. Thoughts?

 

[Rizen]

I brought this up awhile back, but in light of bayonetta dominating at least this thread (if not smash 4 itself quite yet), I'd like to revisit it- I strongly believe that lucario is an excellent choice as a secondary to use against bayo. I feel lucario has flaws that hold him back as a solo main, but his tools really are strong against what bayo likes to do.

Is bayo camping you with bullet arts? Good, take damage and build aura, if you get in and can hit her, great! If not, camp her back with your projectile that now kills because you have rage+aura. Bayo playing more aggressive? Perfect, punish her overextensions with your strong low percent combo game, and trade if necessary, they are always in your favor. Lucario also has solid survivability so that outside of bayo ladder, he shouldn't be dying before he gets aura. I'm not saying lucario beats bayo, but I think that he could potentially be a valuable character to play in the meta going forward. Thoughts?

I can see this. He also has a command grab kill. Earlier someone mentioned Ness as being good against Bayo too. If all else fails there's always Cloud, lol.

 

[Krysco]

Is there a solid consensus on what the Mewtwo/Bayo mu is like? From either top Bayo and/or top Mewtwo players? He has more speed to be able to run away if need be, Shadow Ball for camping, Confusion isn't a killing grab but it's a command grab nonetheless, he has 2 different throws he can kill with, fthrow does a solid 13% if all the balls connect and as the percents go up, you can add pummels to that. Having a crazy good double jump, the best airdodge in the game and Teleport making him invulnerable should also largely prevent him from being edgeguarded too well.

Biggest issues I see are his usual large frame which'll likely keep him stuck in her ladder combos for longer and his leightweight which means he'll die quickly. I doubt he wins by any means but is it at least considered even?

 

[Y2Kay]

It’s usually agreed to be a slight loss for Mewtwo

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I brought this up awhile back, but in light of bayonetta dominating at least this thread (if not smash 4 itself quite yet), I'd like to revisit it- I strongly believe that lucario is an excellent choice as a secondary to use against bayo. I feel lucario has flaws that hold him back as a solo main, but his tools really are strong against what bayo likes to do.

Is bayo camping you with bullet arts? Good, take damage and build aura, if you get in and can hit her, great! If not, camp her back with your projectile that now kills because you have rage+aura. Bayo playing more aggressive? Perfect, punish her overextensions with your strong low percent combo game, and trade if necessary, they are always in your favor. Lucario also has solid survivability so that outside of bayo ladder, he shouldn't be dying before he gets aura. I'm not saying lucario beats bayo, but I think that he could potentially be a valuable character to play in the meta going forward. Thoughts?

I don't know how solid of a strategy it is to go Lucario against a character who can so easily kill you at any percent. Also her edgegaurding is quite good and recovery is one of Lucario's exploitable weaknesses.

 

[Game7a1]

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 516
Diddy Kong: 512
Cloud: 410
Sheik: 344
Sonic: 316.5
Fox: 296
Mario: 295
Rosalina & Luma: 246
Zero Suit Samus: 236
Ryu: 179.5
Mewtwo: 169
Corrin: 127
Mega Man: 119
Meta Knight: 116.5
Donkey Kong: 113
Pikachu: 112
Peach: 107.5
Ness: 102.5
Captain Falcon: 100
Marth: 97.5
Luigi: 96
Villager: 93.5
Bowser: 82
Greninja: 81.5
Lucina: 66.5
Toon Link: 64.5
Olimar: 63.5
Lucas: 62.5
R.O.B.: 62
Samus: 52.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Lucario: 46.5
Yoshi: 43.5
Little Mac: 42
Ike: 41.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Roy: 29
Wario: 26.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Charizard: 25.5
Link: 22.5
Pac-Man: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

Meant to post something about the scores, but oh well. Sorry if this is a tangent.
So the only characters without any results so far in this phase are , , and . However, with LeeT going to both Smash Con and Shine, maybe Swordfighter will finally get a point, even half a point, on Das Koopa's database. But as for Doc, I'm not well versed with any Doc players going to the big events. I find it odd that his popularity and results are below that of Miis this time (Dark Pit getting results doesn't surprise me too much).

The same goes for Kirby, and we were just talking about his viablity earlier as well. In fact, in previous phases (sans Phase 4), he was above the likes of Ganon and below (oddly enough, Dedede was above him every time). I know a Kirby placed 33rd at GOML (Maz), but outside of that and much like Doc, has something happened with their metas and players?

 

[NairWizard]

I think Diddy kind of sucks relative to common perception. His bad airspeed actually hurts him a lot in many top-level matchups and what people don't realize about banana is that holding a banana severely limits his own options. He's been getting exposed in more and more matchups as people figure this out. Look at Fatality's counterplay to ZeRo's banana at Momocon. Or Locus', or Salem's, or Nairo's. Yeah, Diddy is good, I'll never call him bad, but meh. Overrated as heck.

Also Sheik's neutral isn't as good as is usually claimed. Being great in the neutral with Sheik is possible and relies unnecessarily hard on stellar use of needles, but just having a ton of fast tilts and good mobility doesn't make your neutral top 5. She trades way too often with weak hitboxes to really have the kind of neutral that people think she has.

Her advantage, state, however, is one of the best in the game.