Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The-Technique]

It's disappointing to see so many top players dropping this year's GOML, compared to how stacked and hype last year's was. Can it even rightly be called a major at this point?

And damn, Captain Zack definitely has a Little Mac problem. None of the other relevant Bayo's have dropped games to one yet.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Zack's the major one that loses to Mac. It's relatively easy for bayo but getting an opening can be rough, and she can't jump too much at kill% cuz usmash is stupid strong, while Mac is hard to whiff punish. Still, he gets comboed harder than basically all but DK and bayo's edgeguarding is so good she can cover every option with relatively little effort.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

If ZeRo could not get pre-patch Diddy banned then I doubt Bayo under ZeRo will get banned either. Even in his vid complaining about pre-patch Bayo he disagreed with banning her.

But if ZeRo is seriously only going to learn and main Bayo just to get her banned. It would be one seriously d-bag move. I seriously cannot see ZeRo doing that damage to the game that is both his passion and career.

All this talk about banning Bayonetta meanwhile Mii Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner mains are just thrown a bone and told to be happy and make it WORK.

The Zero playing Bayonetta to get her banned talk reminds me of a few years ago when Zero said he would play Luigi just to get him nerfed. One way or another that happened shortly after that.

As far as setting unrealistic expectations for Bayonetta mains to make to warrant a ban, will the bar be set higher if Bayonetta mains DO manage to meet those expectations?

Edit: I hope the community can get it's priorities straight before tackling any other issues.

Edit 2: How can we talk about "character diversity" when Mii mains are still getting the short end of the stick? Are we suppose to forget about them and move on?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Neither talk about whether Bayonetta should be banned nor what ruleset Miis belong to belong in this thread. This is the 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis thread, not the Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion thread. If you want to discuss rulesets, check out this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-smash-ruleset-discussion.368605/

Also, to quell any "Should Bayonetta be banned" discussion in this thread, look at this: https://twitter.com/Smashboards/status/891018069761458178

73% voted no, 14% voted yes, and 13% voted maybe. Bayonetta is unlikely to be banned any time soon.

I haven't seen much Pit () discussion lately. I don't think his competitive future is very bright. Correct me if I'm wrong, but right now Earth is kind of carrying Pit's results at higher levels, and I wouldn't be surprised if Earth decided to play secondaries more and Pit less. Based on Das Koopa's tournament result thread, Pit has 18 points and is tied for 43rd best results... Worse results than characters like Charizard, Palutena, Ike, Wario, Roy, Wii Fit Trainer, and Little Mac. If we include Dark Pit (who got 2 points) he's tied at 42nd, tied with Link (who appears to have been underperforming after Civil War?). Pit is currently #30 on the 4BR tier list. I predict that he'll fall a bit. He's not a character but others are better, and he has some rather unfortunate MUs and doesn't really win that many relevant MUs from what I've seen (he goes even with a bunch, though). I could be wrong, though, I'm hardly an expert on Pit. What do you think?

 

[blackghost]

Meanwhile, in Louisiana...

BrawlerG31 3-2 Captain Zack

The Mac-Bayo matchup seems to be surprisingly difficult for Bayo. Are the Bayos playing it wrong, or is it Mac?

Zack style is hyper aggressive. That's exactly what a mac wants you to do. Mac also has the upside of using smash attacks to reduce bayo approach options. And he can up b out of some of bayo combos as well. It's a weird fight no doubt bayo wins but mac does have on stage options

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pit has unsafe ground buttons and no good kill confirms.

How there can be a competitive future for such a character is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pit has unsafe ground buttons and no good kill confirms.

How there can be a competitive future for such a character is beyond my comprehension.

Yeah. Most top tiers or high tiers either have some really safe ways to KO or some really strong other stuff (like Sheik och Pikachu). Pit has good stuff, but not as strong as Sheik and Pikachu. Even high-mid tiers tend to either have really good projectiles and/or combos (like Samus and Duck Hunt) or some solid kill moves (like Ness, Donkey Kong, and Bowser). Maybe Pit is actually a low-mid character?

Oh, and regarding Diddy Kong (), if ZeRo completely drops him, then where will Diddy Kong be on the tier list? I've seen people say Diddy Kong is #1, but is he really? Is he even #2? I don't think he is, and I think he's mostly carried by ZeRo. He is no doubt top tier, but where in top tier? Top 3? Top 4? Top 5? Top 6?

 

[The-Technique]

Zero did place Diddy 6th in his own tier list. I guess maybe he was right all along.

 

[BSP]

Pit has unsafe ground buttons and no good kill confirms.

How there can be a competitive future for such a character is beyond my comprehension.

Do you think Mario is doomed? He doesn't have safe ground attacks and no kill confirms really outside of rage jank.

 

[Lord Dio]

I feel like we've done this before. Take so-and so's best player out of the equation and where does the character place?

Teah, we definitely have done this before, we did it with Earth and Pit.....
Taking out ZeRo, plus considering people making counterplay for MF........I'd probably put Diddy........hmmm......yeah, probably 6th.

 

[TDK]

I haven't seen much Pit () discussion lately. I don't think his competitive future is very bright. Correct me if I'm wrong, but right now Earth is kind of carrying Pit's results at higher levels, and I wouldn't be surprised if Earth decided to play secondaries more and Pit less. Based on Das Koopa's tournament result thread, Pit has 18 points and is tied for 43rd best results... Worse results than characters like Charizard, Palutena, Ike, Wario, Roy, Wii Fit Trainer, and Little Mac. If we include Dark Pit (who got 2 points) he's tied at 42nd, tied with Link (who appears to have been underperforming after Civil War?). Pit is currently #30 on the 4BR tier list. I predict that he'll fall a bit. He's not a character but others are better, and he has some rather unfortunate MUs and doesn't really win that many relevant MUs from what I've seen (he goes even with a bunch, though). I could be wrong, though, I'm hardly an expert on Pit. What do you think?

I fully believe Pit to be, at best, one of the worst mid tiers or even low tier. Pit (and Dark Pit) are all-rounders that are below average or average at best at nearly everything. Pit wants to play neutral for six minutes, which is fine, but a lot of characters can at least claim to have a stronger neutral than him, which means Pit usually has the disadvantage in the neutral. Pit's range is also deceptive, with a lot of his attacks looking like this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

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So, despite having a sword-staff-bow-thing, he has pretty bad range which is more comparable to someone like MK or one of the non-swordies with larger limbs. So, Pit doesn't win neutral very easily nor does he have the range to space out characters. This leaves Pit in a weird spot where he has to try and bait something unsafe from the opponent and punish it, despite Pit's extremely lacklustre punish game. While Pit's juggling game is good (his best attribute easily) and can rack on a fair amount of damage fairly quickly, that damage Pit gets for reading his opponent's landings multiple times is still only about what other characters get for a single neutral win, which is not a sustaining gameplan for Pit at all and leads to a lot of bad matchups. Diddy in particular is terrible for him, not because of any MU specific things, but because Diddy just does everything Pit wants to do (minus juggling), but better, and that makes it very hard for Pit to get anything started. Same with Sheik and a few others.

In short, Pit is too well-rounded and every other character having a notable strength plus a lot of them being better than Pit at what Pit wants to do or out-damaging Pit when they do win neutral isn't a good recipe - and that's before factoring in his killing problem, since he has some of the worst kill power in the game.

I'd put him around on the tier list.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Pit has unsafe ground buttons and no good kill confirms.

How there can be a competitive future for such a character is beyond my comprehension.

Do you really need safe ground buttons to have a future? Cloud and Mario's grounded options are unsafe, yet they still achieve solid results on a regular basis.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sorry to break the thread up briefly, but can anyone link me to that Bayonetta DI guide thing from a few days ago please? I seem to have lost my way to it...

 

[Game7a1]

Sorry to break the thread up briefly, but can anyone link me to that Bayonetta DI guide thing from a few days ago please? I seem to have lost my way to it...

https://smashboards.com/threads/guide-sdi-dealing-with-bayonettas-combo-specials.449145/
This?

 

[Bowserboy3]

https://smashboards.com/threads/guide-sdi-dealing-with-bayonettas-combo-specials.449145/
This?

As Rodin would say...

Beautiful!

Thank you.

 

[Pyrover]

Pit's probably among he weakest mid tiers at this point. A character with his neutral, survivability, and edgeguarding can't be a low tier. But nothing really stands out enough for him to break out of mid tier. He has a good neutral but it's not oppressive, he has good buttons but they're average, his combos ain't bad but they ain't great either. His disadvantage is somewhat impressive with multiple jumps and situational Orbitar plays, but that merely lets him get back to neutral faster. And then he either gets out neutraled or out damaged. He isn't bad, that much is certain. He just doesn't really do anything well enough to be a big threat. For comparisons sake, Kirby has his highly damaging combos, a kill confirm and a kill throw, while having comparable disadvantage. I... want to say that Pit's neutral makes up for that, but it just isn't strong enough for me to say it does.

Actually, since he's on the brain now, what do people think of Kirby ?

 

[|RK|]

Pls no

Actually, I'm just going to give a random recent thought... did you know Kirby is faster than Luigi on the ground and in the air?

Otherwise pls no

 

[Kofu]

Kirby kinda strikes me as a worse Luigi actually. Similar gameplan, but he lacks fireballs to help him get in and doesn't have Luigi's frame data. Makes it far easier to keep Kirby out.

 

[The-Technique]

Today is a great day for Ike, nuff said.

 

[verbatim]

Pit has unsafe ground buttons and no good kill confirms.

How there can be a competitive future for such a character is beyond my comprehension.

You mean like Cloud?

 

[The-Technique]

Dang, Ryo 3-0'd by Leo's Marth in Grands. All the games were close though. Let's see how far San makes it in GOML.

San meets his end at the hands of Larry Lurr, a 3-0. Still, San made an amazing Loser's run, beating SGK and Angel Cortes in the process.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You mean like Cloud?

Do you really want to play this game with me?

I mean I'm down if you are, but is this really worth your time?

As for Mario...yeah he actually is kind of doomed as in he probably won't advance much further in the meta. His meta is literally "Get the grab" the character. That is all he is. His gameplan never changes. He can either get the grab or he can't that pretty much dictates how well he does vs any given character.

Mario is strong. But if the question is will he go forward as a character, then my answer is nah not really.

That said most chars will not advance much more at this point. But Mario has been pretty much in the same spot for a few years. He is just REALLY good at getting that grab.

We all now why Pit is not worth.

Cloud was mentioned. Cloud has insane strengths to make up for his flaws. Pit has nothing insane about him.

Now please stop posting like this is day one. I would appreciate it.

 

[TDK]

Get on my Level 2017 (438 Entrants) (Ontario)

1st: ANTi
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Mistake
4th: San
5th: SuperGirlKels
5th: Fatality
7th: Blacktwins
7th: Angel Cortes
9th: DarkAura
9th: Strike
9th: Xyro
9th: Yoh
13th: iModerz
13th: Deathorse
13th: Fwed
13th: THUNDER
17th: smasher1001
17th: Infinity
17th: Yonks
17th: Chrim Foish
17th: Venom
17th: TruBlu
17th: Max Ketchum
17th: nanaba
25th: IceNinja
25th: Shadow
25th: Roots
25th: Burst
25th: JIBE
25th: ItsSonic
25th: Jw
25th: Flieskiller

IGX: International Gaming Expo (91 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Ryo
3rd: Konga
4th: Whispy
5th: Sol
5th: Locus
7th: Cali
7th: Red9

Do you really need safe ground buttons to have a future? Cloud and Mario's grounded options are unsafe, yet they still achieve solid results on a regular basis.

You mean like Cloud?

Mario and Cloud both have great advantage states (And in Cloud's case, better Juggling too) and an X factor, two things Pit sorely lacks.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Get on my Level 2017 (438 Entrants) (Ontario)

1st: ANTi
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Mistake
4th: San
5th: SuperGirlKels
5th: Fatality
7th: Blacktwins
7th: Angel Cortes
9th: DarkAura
9th: Strike
9th: Xyro
9th: Yoh
13th: iModerz
13th: Deathorse
13th: Fwed
13th: THUNDER
17th: smasher1001
17th: Infinity
17th: Yonks
17th: Chrim Foish
17th: Venom
17th: TruBlu
17th: Max Ketchum
17th: nanaba
25th: IceNinja
25th: Shadow
25th: Roots
25th: Burst
25th: JIBE
25th: ItsSonic
25th: Jw
25th: Flieskiller

IGX: International Gaming Expo (91 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Ryo
3rd: Konga
4th: Whispy
5th: Sol
5th: Locus
7th: Cali (Information on this player doesn't seem to exist)
7th: Red9



Mario and Cloud both have great advantage states (And in Cloud's case, better Juggling too) and an X factor, two things Pit sorely lacks.

Cali used fox. What games did Ryo use roy?

 

[TDK]

Cali used fox. What games did Ryo use roy?

vs Leo, where he took one game.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby kinda strikes me as a worse Luigi actually. Similar gameplan, but he lacks fireballs to help him get in and doesn't have Luigi's frame data. Makes it far easier to keep Kirby out.

In exchange, Kirby also has better traction. And his normals are better. And a better jumpsquat.

Though of course, Luigi has better combos, aerial frame data (except bair), and as mentioned, fireball (which is unsafe on hit and stuffed really easily). But yeah, that sounds okay.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mario and Cloud both have great advantage states (And in Cloud's case, better Juggling too) and an X factor, two things Pit sorely lacks.

Beyond his grab, Mario doesn't really have that much of an X factor.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm glad people are finally starting to realize that the "Pit is a solid mid tier; he's well-rounded and honest!" claim is outdated.

Characters like Link and Ike are far more threatening

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Finally Ike getting the recognition he deserves

Can I say Ike > Robin yet or is that too far?

 

[The-Technique]

Finally Ike getting the recognition he deserves

Can I say Ike > Robin yet or is that too far?

Mmm that's too far. The last time Robin made a deep run Dath beat Larry Lurr, 6WX, and SGK in one tournament. But then again Robin hasn't made many big placements this year, and it doesn't help that Dath is currently the only player leading the Robin meta, and the other Robin's that are close to his skill level haven't been active lately...so more or less the same situation Ike was in this year before this week's tournaments.

 

[|RK|]

I'm just glad Ike showed up. Thing is, people misinterpret lack of representation to mean the character has been figured out.

I think Shulk is about to go through the exact same thing. Shulk players haven't really been going to anything, so he took a huge dip.

Sort of leads to an interesting question - if your meta doesn't advance for a while, BUT your character never actually gets "figured out," what's the result?

 

[Nu~]

Do you really want to play this game with me?

I mean I'm down if you are, but is this really worth your time?

As for Mario...yeah he actually is kind of doomed as in he probably won't advance much further in the meta. His meta is literally "Get the grab" the character. That is all he is. His gameplan never changes. He can either get the grab or he can't that pretty much dictates how well he does vs any given character.

Mario is strong. But if the question is will he go forward as a character, then my answer is nah not really.

That said most chars will not advance much more at this point. But Mario has been pretty much in the same spot for a few years. He is just REALLY good at getting that grab.

We all now why Pit is not worth.

Cloud was mentioned. Cloud has insane strengths to make up for his flaws. Pit has nothing insane about him.

Now please stop posting like this is day one. I would appreciate it.

Well this makes me curious as to what chars you believe still have room to grow.

Bayo is a given, but what about versatile chars that have been under the radar for a while like and?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm just glad Ike showed up. Thing is, people misinterpret lack of representation to mean the character has been figured out.

I think Shulk is about to go through the exact same thing. Shulk players haven't really been going to anything, so he took a huge dip.

Sort of leads to an interesting question - if your meta doesn't advance for a while, BUT your character never actually gets "figured out," what's the result?

To that I say, keep the misinformation spreading and make brackets easier for the character mains.

I disagree with a character's meta is not advancing if they are not getting results or seen on stream (lack of representation). The players in bracket who we do not recognize could very well be the players using characters that people say have lack of representation.

 

[Nobie]

Whether or not a character is "interesting" says nothing about their viability.

As for Pit specifically, the fact that Earth carries the character on his shoulders is nothing new. Even when Pit's results were at their most impressive, people still didn't gravitate towards the character. Short of a win at a major, I'm not sure we're ever gonna see a sizable Pit population.

Tiers matter here to an extent, but not entirely. I bet you'll find more Ganondorf players in bracket than you will Pits.

 

[Mario766]

People going crazy over San's performance needs to remember that San did exactly the same thing he did this tournament at GOML 2016.

With a much deeper player pool, though he got 9th losing to Zero after Zero got knocked to losers 3-0 by M2K.

This isn't new.

 

[The-Technique]

People going crazy over San's performance needs to remember that San did exactly the same thing he did this tournament at GOML 2016.

With a much deeper player pool, though he got 9th losing to Zero after Zero got knocked to losers 3-0 by M2K.

This isn't new.

True, but in this GOML San lost in his pool early on, but went on to win 10 sets in a row in his loser's run, knocking out SuperGirlKels and Angel Cortes in the process. I don't recall which notable players that he beat in last year's GOML though.

Plus I was always of the opinion that Ike is a viciously slept on character. I'm just happy we got not just 1 but 2 top Ike players showing up today.

 

[Mario766]

True, but in this GOML San lost in his pool early on, but went on to win 10 sets in a row in his loser's run, knocking out SuperGirlKels and Angel Cortes in the process. I don't recall which notable players that he beat in last year's GOML though.

Plus I was always of the opinion that Ike is a viciously slept on character. I'm just happy we got not just 1 but 2 top Ike players showing up today.

He lost actually 1 set later in 2016 than in 2017, beating Holy, V115, Chrim Foish and having losses only to Larry and Zero. The difference is like 2 sets in round 2 pools.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Only reason shulk is going under a dip is because his players don't choose to enter majors. Nicko is still very active at the local level (he beat rich brown on Thursday and JK on Monday) and according to shuton Kome practices frequently. Nickos next major is super smash con so catch him there.

 

[|RK|]

Only reason shulk is going under a dip is because his players don't choose to enter majors. Nicko is still very active at the local level (he beat rich brown on Thursday and JK on Monday) and according to shuton Kome practices frequently. Nickos next major is super smash con so catch him there.

Right, that's exactly what I was saying. If the rep doesn't show up, the character's results dip.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Pit has unsafe ground buttons and no good kill confirms.

And a lot of landing lag, which Cloud and Mario don't have. Strange for a boy with wings.

I really wish his hitboxes and hitstun were fixed so I could enjoy playing him again.