Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

You can't compare moves in a vacuum like that as you have to take character attributes into consideration because they play a major factor into actually playing Smash 4.

That's a bad way to judge moves.

Maybe, but it's an interesting way to get a deeper dive into the move. Much like the move tier list thread we had before.

 

[Rizen]

Vacuums suck (). There's little point to examining moves in a vacuum. I'd give the best Fair award to Marth; a frame 6 Fair with that reach is too good. Robin's levin Fair is better in other ways but starts frame 12. He can't Levin all the time too. The speed is a big thing. Remember how much Mewtwo can do because his Fair got a speed boost.

Fun fact: Link's Fair is +3/+4 on shield drop. Safer than any of the above mentioned Fairs.

 

[Djmarcus44]

It isn't the specials that makes the miis bad for the most part. It's their frame data, which is fixed by not being 50/50. Like you said, Gunners 1111 set is fine. Though, even on 0/0 Gunner would probably be lower mid tier tops, and swordfighter would remain low tier. A 0/0 Brawler could be another high/top tier though.

I'm just annoyed with the fact that my opponent can main Bayonetta and Sonic but oh no I had better not shorten my mii, that would be against the "rules". You know what, I'm not sure if this is exactly the place to ask this, but was there a big vote on mii legality or something? Who decided on that anyways? I want to know who I can blame for this. What exactly was the process behind deciding upon mii rulings and what group of people was that decision left up to?

I honestly think that Gunner's biggest issue right now is the small playerbase. Gunner doesn't get too much representation, and the top players that we have usually fail to take advantage of Gunner's ledge trapping and kill confirms. While Gunner's kill setups seem reliable enough to solve the character's killing issues, I honestly don't think that there is a Gunner player that has mastered all 3 of Gunner's main kill setups yet. I could honestly see Gunner being at least mid tier if the best Gunner mains were able to attend more tournaments and master Gunner's main kill confirms.

Small Gunner would be even better than that due to the increase in mobility, and the decreases in lag. For instance, fair goes from +5 on shield drop to +8 on shield drop. On the other hand, small Brawler isn't that good with 1111. While the character would be fast, small Brawler loses some footstool combos, and the character would still have killing issues with 1111.

Nu~ and @HoSmash4 , Let's not forget about Gunner's fair. It is a safe, transcendent, projectile that also gives Gunner good burst mobility through gundashing. It has good range, and it combos into many of Gunner's moves, including charge blast for a kill confirm around 100%. It can be used to cover every ledge option when timed properly, but flame pillar is better for ledge trapping. Gundashing with fair also serves as a good landing option and a high recovery mixup. Both fair and gundashing are good ledge options after either a ledge drop or a wall jump. I would have to say that Gunner's fair is the best due to the safety and versatility of the move.

 

[Nah]

Robin Fair is indeed one of the best Fairs in the game and you are legit crazy if you don't think so, but THE best? That's definitely questionable.

Wow, I did not expect to see this when I stuck my head in here for the first time in a while. I see people talk about Levin stuff occasionally, but more often than not, all people see Robin for is projectiles and the Checkmate.

Is the surprise more at someone saying something positive about Robin, or more at someone knowing there's more to the character than Checkmate and lobbing projectiles (and being slow)? The former shouldn't be that surprising, as it always seemed to me that more people were optimistic about the character (not me though lol) than not, while with the latter is more understandable since it also kind of seems to me that (some) people often tend to tunnel-vision into just those things when talking about the character.

but maybe it's just me

But his forward air is arguably his actual best move!

Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing here, just adding the conversation, but Arcthunder could compete for that spot too. Being a store-able projectile that consistently sets up for damage/combos and kills at basically all percents, even on a shielding opponent (usually) and all that.

It's also limited by the durability system, which lessens its use as a zoning tool somewhat. I wonder how good Robin would be if she had unlimited uses of everything? Granted, she'd lose out on Tomes and throwable swords getting her out of combos, and she'd also lose out of a throwable item that can kill. Still, I'd imagine she'd be better, but how much? In other words, how much is Robin held back by the durability system? A little? A lot? Not much at all?

I don't think that the durability system is really that much of hindrance to Robin. The respawn times on everything except Nosferatu are short enough that it tends to matter little--you can wait out. If you ran out of a Levin sword or tome at the exact moment you needed it and can't wait for it to respawn, well, that's on you for failing at basic management (which, btw, Robin tomes don't actually require immense amounts of constant management or complex planning) and thinking ahead in the slightest.

The only time it's annoying, at least to me, is when you have one Elwind use left but don't know it (it can be hard to know the exact number since it's hard to track how much of the tome Wind Jabs eat up) and you die offstage cuz you didn't get the boost from the second wind blade.

Suppose it would be nice if one never had to think about items running out, but eh.

 

[Rizen]

Let's not forget about Gunner's fair. It is a safe, transcendent, projectile that also gives Gunner good burst mobility through gundashing. It has good range, and it combos into many of Gunner's moves, including charge blast for a kill confirm around 100%. It can be used to cover every ledge option when timed properly, but flame pillar is better for ledge trapping. Gundashing with fair also serves as a good landing option and a high recovery mixup. Both fair and gundashing are good ledge options after either a ledge drop or a wall jump. I would have to say that Gunner's fair is the best due to the safety and versatility of the move.

The problem is it has an FAF of 56 and pushes Gunner backwards, making it unusable offstage (too bad it wasn't his Bair). 6% isn't very much damage for a frame 10 aerial. I agree with what you said but it's a nitch Fair.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Maybe, but it's an interesting way to get a deeper dive into the move. Much like the move tier list thread we had before.

Speaking of which, when was the last time someone posted on that (still open) thread?

Plus as far as Fairs go, would it perhaps be a good time to bring these up?

Spoiler: Fair tier list (Smashboards)

Spoiler: Fair tier list (r/smashbros)

 

[TDK]

It might honestly be better to restart that thread since OP is long gone.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It might honestly be better to restart that thread since OP is long gone.

Honestly, I think several of them could very easily be redone, and a couple months ago, I seemed to be the only one who added extra posts to the thread.

As far as a new OP, who do you suggest?

 

[Djmarcus44]

The problem is it has an FAF of 56 and pushes Gunner backwards, making it unusable offstage (too bad it wasn't his Bair). 6% isn't very much damage for a frame 10 aerial. I agree with what you said but it's a nitch Fair.

It doesn't have to be used offstage offensively. Since the move has so much horizontal range, it can harrass high recoveries safely, and even get late percent kills in some cases. It is also better than most fairs for safe ledge option coverage. I wouldn't call the move niche because it is still a great option in neutral, and it is more useful than any other fair in disadvantage due to gundashing. While the damage on the fair is low, the combo potential of the move more than makes up for the damage.

 

[ARGHETH]

Main problem with that thread was that we went through all the moves, then everyone kind of disappeared. I tried running revisions, but not that many people participated. IDK if opinions would really change, but maybe we could make it a general discussion kind of thing...

If we really want to make it a thing, I could run it, I guess.

 

[Rizen]

It doesn't have to be used offstage offensively. Since the move has so much horizontal range, it can harrass high recoveries safely, and even get late percent kills in some cases. It is also better than most fairs for safe ledge option coverage. I wouldn't call the move niche because it is still a great option in neutral, and it is more useful than any other fair in disadvantage due to gundashing. While the damage on the fair is low, the combo potential of the move more than makes up for the damage.

Gunner's Fair is okay but it has serious drawbacks. Use it offstage and it severely hurts your recovery. Gunner not being able to cover his recoveries makes him more vulnerable than most characters offstage. If you're in an advantaged position to harass high recoveries, safety isn't a big concern and 6 or 4% then 56 frames of lag or landing isn't an effective use of the opportunity. In neutral it combos into charged shot but the push back hurts other combos. Any Zair works better and they have 8 frames of landing lag rather than 12. Yeah it's a good zoning tool and gives short backwards burst in disadvantage but several characters have much better Fairs.

 

[Game7a1]

Gunner's Fair is okay but it has serious drawbacks. Use it offstage and it severely hurts your recovery. Gunner not being able to cover his recoveries makes him more vulnerable than most characters offstage. If you're in an advantaged position to harass high recoveries, safety isn't a big concern and 6 or 4% then 56 frames of lag or landing isn't an effective use of the opportunity. In neutral it combos into charged shot but the push back hurts other combos. Any Zair works better and they have 8 frames of landing lag rather than 12. Yeah it's a good zoning tool and gives short backwards burst in disadvantage but several characters have much better Fairs.

I wouldn't say Gunner's F-air is abysmal off-stage. Use it at or below ledge height, and yeah, it's not the best idea, especially if you lose your jump. It will also linearize the recovery even more or prevent one from getting to the ledge. And I don't think getting the late hit of F-air aids in edgeguarding since the opponent would likely be above you. But above ledge height, it's good. The additional pushback from F-air allows for recovery mix-ups. Add in the stall from Absorbing Vortex or Reflector (and the fact that you can change face direction with either Down Special), and F-air has a couple uses high off-stage. More defensive than offensive, though.

As well, if you wall jump from below the ledge in, say, Dream Land, you can immediately F-air to get back on stage (it's not a guarantee since you need to be above the ledge after the wall jump for this to work).

As for harassing opponents who are recovering high, I don't know much about that. If you miss it, you'll likely be at the center of the stage to have stage control, but that's about it for positives. As for trying to challenge those who are attempting to block Gunner's high recovery, it could have a use, but the reward does not balance with the risk well. In this scenario, B-air, N-air, or even Charge Blast might be better.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Gunner's Fair is okay but it has serious drawbacks. Use it offstage and it severely hurts your recovery. Gunner not being able to cover his recoveries makes him more vulnerable than most characters offstage. If you're in an advantaged position to harass high recoveries, safety isn't a big concern and 6 or 4% then 56 frames of lag or landing isn't an effective use of the opportunity. In neutral it combos into charged shot but the push back hurts other combos. Any Zair works better and they have 8 frames of landing lag rather than 12. Yeah it's a good zoning tool and gives short backwards burst in disadvantage but several characters have much better Fairs.

To add on to what Game7a1 posted, the backwards momentum from fair doesn't hurt any of Gunner's combos. Gunner can still move forward while shooting fair and combo. Also, Gunner's fair is better than all of the zairs because it is safer than all of them on shield and it is a better combo starter. In addition, Gunner's fair is better for hitting shorter opponents since landing on the ground before the hitbox ends doesn't reduce the move's range.

For edgeguarding high recoveries, I meant recoveries that can be hit by short hop or full hop fair. I'm sorry for not making that clear. It is a good option because it gives Gunner a more advantageous position on hit without risking the positional advantage if the Gunner player misses. The positional advantage can allow Gunner to set up a better ledge trap in flame pillar. Gunner can also confirm into charge blast from the fair if Gunner gets a hit on a grounded opponent (It hasn't been tested for opponents in the air, but it can still confirm for hitting options such as neutral getup, roll, and getup attack).

 

[Lord Dio]

As far as the moves tier lists thread is concerned.....I think it's safe to say people's opinions on things have canged, at least a little bit. Thus, that thread could use a revamp.
Could. Idk if it SHOULD, but it could.

 

[tecmo]

You n*ggas effectively banned the Miis and 2/3 of them suck.

People call it banning mii's because there's a specific rule banning them :/

I can get behind mandating default mii's (doing stuff in the wii u menu takes forever), but you do the same thing to make a 3122 mii as you do to make a 111 mii. It'd be like if there was a rule banning certain character skins.

I know this was a while back but I am done with this absurd lie. The mii fighters are not banned. You just have to play them like every other character in the game, with the default 1,1,1,1 setup. Either except the mii fighters are bottom tier characters and continue to play them, or pick up a top tier if you care more about winning. What is not OK is to try to artificially buff your character by writing in advantages for your characters into the ruleset.

 

[Nu~]

I know this was a while back but I am done with this absurd lie. The mii fighters are not banned. You just have to play them like every other character in the game, with the default 1,1,1,1 setup. Either except the mii fighters are bottom tier characters and continue to play them, or pick up a top tier if you care more about winning. What is not OK is to try to artificially buff your character by writing in advantages for your characters into the ruleset.

The Miis were designed to be custom characters.
What's artificial is annihilating their design by cutting their moveset to pieces.

And don't give me that arbitrary "it's not fair to have more moves" BS. With that argument, we should ban Ryu for having extra normals

 

[Frihetsanka]

Let's move on when it comes to Miis, shall we? We're not actually allowed to discuss it in this thread, so if anyone wants to discuss it elsewhere, feel free to create a thread in the proper forum (or just post in the "Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion" thread).

I haven't seen much discussion about Olimar () lately. What do you guys think about Olimar? High tier? High-mid? Top 15? Top 20? Which are his worst MUs? Does he do well against any top tiers?

 

[PK Gaming]

Echoing the sentiment that Robin's Fair is nowhere near the best Fair in the game. It's really good when Robin has the advantage, but its start up (+ Robin's Jump Squat) and limited uses makes it difficult for Robin to use it to swing momentum back on his side (unlike some of the other God Fair's)

 

[Iron Kraken]

Let's move on when it comes to Miis, shall we? We're not actually allowed to discuss it in this thread, so if anyone wants to discuss it elsewhere, feel free to create a thread in the proper forum (or just post in the "Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion" thread).

I haven't seen much discussion about Olimar () lately. What do you guys think about Olimar? High tier? High-mid? Top 15? Top 20? Which are his worst MUs? Does he do well against any top tiers?

Definitely high tier. I still think Olimar is a borderline top 15-ish character. Shuton is one of the best players in the world (easily top 20 I think, PGR be damned) - he just doesn't attend U.S. tournaments as often as many of the other top U.S. players do.

I really think that Olimar is just one of those characters that most top players have no interest in learning, and that will always hold back his results. So I think Olimar will likely always be a character whose results belie how good he actually is. And yet he's getting pretty good results despite that.

 

[C0rvus]

High tier may be a stretch, but he sure isn't bad. I see him as on par with the zoning boys () because he similarly has a lot of near-even matchups which can make him hard to play in tournament. None of his tools are really overwhelming or ridiculous (pivot grab maybe), especially thanks to Pikmin attacks having low priority. But when I think about it, does he have any awful matchups against relevant characters? I know Sheik is a hard one, and on paper Cloud sounds bad.

Then again, when you look at the success Shuton has had in Japan, and see the lack of top level rep for the character in the states, maybe he is good enough to be in high tier. (Dabuz hasn't used him recently to my knowledge, and Myran doesn't seem to travel. He's trying to go to SmashCon and Shine though ^^) Seems solo viable enough.

Y'know, after typing all of that I realize how trite and pointless this post is. Oh well.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

High tier may be a stretch, but he sure isn't bad. I see him as on par with the zoning boys () because he similarly has a lot of near-even matchups which can make him hard to play in tournament. None of his tools are really overwhelming or ridiculous (pivot grab maybe), especially thanks to Pikmin attacks having low priority. But when I think about it, does he have any awful matchups against relevant characters? I know Sheik is a hard one, and on paper Cloud sounds bad.

Then again, when you look at the success Shuton has had in Japan, and see the lack of top level rep for the character in the states, maybe he is good enough to be in high tier. (Dabuz hasn't used him recently to my knowledge, and Myran doesn't seem to travel. He's trying to go to SmashCon and Shine though ^^) Seems solo viable enough.

Y'know, after typing all of that I realize how trite and pointless this post is. Oh well.

As an Olimar player the most commonly agreed bad matchups are Fox and sonic, and myran agrees with this as well. Yoshi, peach, and corrin are other non top tier picks that give him trouble too, but not as bad as fox/sonic. (Shuton said corrin was his worst matchup and considered it impossible when asked about it in the Olimar discord recently, so take that as you will)

 

[Pyrover]

Olimar is easily top 15. Results say otherwise but he's a character who some people honestly won't put the effort into. Shuton has proven that he can be solo viable at the top level, even if we don't see him much in the States.

Fox is outright bad for him, and while I don't think it's a bad losing matchup, Sonic is obnoxious and often not worth the effort it takes to play. Otherwise he goes even with all the top tiers at worst. In lower tiers, Corrin is quite difficult, but can be camped out, Peach and Yoshi's excel at attacking from his blind spot, and Wario is potentially a tough fight as well. I've always had issues with the Greninja matchup, but Shuton does fine in it so it can't be that bad. Otherwise he has very few losing matchups.

Olimar has the obvious issue of low priority aerials, but his frame data is good enough that he can make them work for easy whiff punishes. The man has highly damaging combos, virtually never has to approach unless he wants to, and has the capacity to outplay all other zoning characters. He excels at controlling ground space, has no stage he doesn't really want to be on (bar maybe Dream Land) and has better kill power than the rest of the projectile specialists (unless we count Link). His boxing game is actually decent with a quick jab and D-tilt, and these are both options that have guaranteed followups until high percents. He boasts an admittedly situational kill confirm off of Red and Yellow grabs, a solid kill throw, fairly deadly smashes and the awesomeness that are Purple b-air and up-air. His F-Smash is among the best grounded spacing tools in the game, Purple Pikmin are among the best projectiles for walling out opponents, and his range basically makes him a sword character... or at least more of a sword character than Toon Link or Metaknight.

He carries a few flaws, namely the low priority on aerials, no hitbox on his recovery, bad OoS options, light weight, and a fear of reflectors (that people often overhype). Beyond that the character isn't lacking anywhere, most of his flaws are easy to hide, and his matchups are actually quite good. The character can switch between camping and aggression very easily, and that makes him more dangerous than most characters.

 

[TDK]

One question I always ask is how well does vs zoners. I know Villagers consider it her worst non-DLC matchup (IE no Corrin/Cloud) and I wonder if that's just the reflector being massive, and if it extends to other characters. In particular, I'm curious what her matchups vs look like.

 

[Routa]

I would say that the MUs where her reflector is somewhat useful are Villager and Gunner MU. Both of them lack the mobility and normals to work around her reflector. Tbh she is one of the worst MUs for Gunner. Tink and Olimar can ignore her reflector with their mobility while MM can just use his powerful normals.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't understand how Yoshi is troublesome for Olimar. Can someone elaborate?

 

[Pyrover]

Basically Olimar has a blind spot in his defenses at about a 20 degree angle above his eye level. All he can do if you go there is retreat or try to aggresssivly f-air you. Yoshi's is really good at attacking from that angle with his aerial momentum. Furthermore, he can spam eggs from a height that's difficult to hit with side b, which actually gives him some hope against Olimar in the projectile war. Overall he isn't that bad, but those two things make the situation much more difficult than they sound like they would. Add in that n-air kind of just vaporizes any pikmin on him, or that he's so hard to grab with the amount of time he spends in the air, and Olimar has to rework his game plan a lot.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

It's not like Sideb has no uses in the tink or MM mu it just has to be used in a different way well a more careful way. They certainly are not able to ignore it.

Tink and MM can work around it but that only works if they read a sideb. Tink can work around it better than MM tough. It's still a huge factor in the Tink mu if it's not something like an hyperaggro tink that decided to only use his sword.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It's not like Sideb has no uses in the tink or MM mu it just has to be used in a different way well a more careful way. They certainly are not able to ignore it.

Tink and MM can work around it but that only works if they read a sideb. Tink can work around it better than MM tough. It's still a huge factor in the Tink mu if it's not something like an hyperaggro tink that decided to only use his sword.

Then why can't Villager work around it?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

he can it's just more difficult for him especially because his most used airials are also projectiles and his mobility is worse than tinks.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Yoshi is difficult for Olimar because Olimar's greatest weakness is air camping, if more people knew this they would probably have a lower opinion of Olimar. Much of the time you're fighting against Yoshi he's flying the **** around with his air speed trying to fish for aerials to start combos off of. Basically most of the time Yoshi is approaching from the air over your fsmashes and grabs. You can go up and try to hit him with aerials but you'll be beaten out every time by Yoshi's aerial disjoints that will eat your attacks and smash you hard. Also, Yoshi's aerial speed makes it really difficult for Olimar to land when getting juggled, not only that but it's easy to be spiked by yoshi's fair when recovering with winged pikmin, or just get wrecked by yoshi's dair.

To make a long story short most of the time Yoshi likes to stay in an area where you can't hit him as Olimar, and if you screw up a few times you're dead, whereas Yoshi has a lot more room for error when it comes to him losing a stock since you probably won't be able to hit him with any of your kill moves and he's just very heavy and has a nair and armored double jump to get him out of grab combos.

 

[Rizen]

One question I always ask is how well does vs zoners. I know Villagers consider it her worst non-DLC matchup (IE no Corrin/Cloud) and I wonder if that's just the reflector being massive, and if it extends to other characters. In particular, I'm curious what her matchups vs look like.

IMO beats +1 once you learn to respect her DA and Bair. Link's sword can reach through her reflector and he outlasts her with his weight and power. Palutena has a mean Uair (one of the best in the game imo) and juggling game from jab/grab so she does alright.

 

[Lord Dio]

IMO beats +1 once you learn to respect her DA and Bair. Link's sword can reach through her reflector and he outlasts her with his weight and power. Palutena has a mean Uair (one of the best in the game imo) and juggling game from jab/grab so she does alright.

Yeah, I'd have to agree to this, plus it can be rather difficult for palu to land against link's uair, utilt, usmash, etc. Just make sure you respect da and bair, as well as the length of her moves and their range (fair, dtilt, and utilt come to mind), along with what you mentioned, and you should have the match.

 

[Kofu]

Then why can't Villager work around it?

he can it's just more difficult for him especially because his most used airials are also projectiles and his mobility is worse than tinks.

Yeah, Villager is largely forced to approach from above, an area which Palutena is rather good at covering. In addition to his lesser mobility, he also has the worst grab of the three by far, so he can't even rely on that.

 

[The-Technique]

Not sure if this is old news for some, but at a recent Shockwave tournament Lima got doubled eliminated by Fye, a Meta Knight who won Grands. Thought that would be interesting to share. What's the consensus on the MK/Bayo matchup?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'd imagine Yoshi's projectile game is more versatile cause of the angles and trajectories egg can be used. All of villagers is a single horizontal line. (fair, bair, side-b, Wood chip from tree)
Though I'm not saying it's better than villager's camp game, it's more of yoshi can be above or below his opponents (in this current discussion, above against olimar) and still toss out projectiles to hit the pikmin and olimar.

I haven't played the MU enough to know if Yoshi's egg can hit Olimar's pikmin during his aerials and make the pikmin fall out of his hand or not so I won't go on about that.

 

[|RK|]

Don't think there's consensus on any Bayo MUs - for the guy who asked about MK. Every Bayo has lost to some random character. CaptainZack lost to two Little Macs. Pink Fresh lost to a DK (Vex) pre-slump. Etc.

 

[blackghost]

Bayo mu are hard to get because it's so rare to see people actually fight th character correctly in a basic sense let alone use their characters tools to combat her but there are a few things to consider.
Bayo is throw combo food. Due to her weight, hitbox being tall, and fall speed she is easy to throw combo for dk and others. Shiek gets her up throw 50 50 on bayo for a long window.
Charavters that are combo based actually can do very well against her. Due to mechanics of the game the fastest action a character can take out of tumble is air dodge. For bayo that's a bad thing. Her dodge is extremely easy to react to and even if she is getting bats she is taking damage and not even necessarily escaping.
Certain characters do have traits that take advantage of this exceptionally well but I am not comfortable putting any bayo mu up except for shiek and diddy both being 50 50.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bayo mu are hard to get because it's so rare to see people actually fight th character correctly in a basic sense let alone use their characters tools to combat her but there are a few things to consider.
Bayo is throw combo food. Due to her weight, hitbox being tall, and fall speed she is easy to throw combo for dk and others. Shiek gets her up throw 50 50 on bayo for a long window.
Charavters that are combo based actually can do very well against her. Due to mechanics of the game the fastest action a character can take out of tumble is air dodge. For bayo that's a bad thing. Her dodge is extremely easy to react to and even if she is getting bats she is taking damage and not even necessarily escaping.
Certain characters do have traits that take advantage of this exceptionally well but I am not comfortable putting any bayo mu up except for shiek and diddy both being 50 50.

Any other throw 50:50s for characters who otherwise struggle with her (or perhaps some advice)?

 

[RonNewcomb]

Olimar has the obvious issue of low priority aerials, but his frame data is good enough that he can make them work for easy whiff punishes. The man has highly damaging combos, virtually never has to approach unless he wants to, and has the capacity to outplay all other zoning characters. He excels at controlling ground space, has no stage he doesn't really want to be on (bar maybe Dream Land) and has better kill power than the rest of the projectile specialists (unless we count Link). His boxing game is actually decent with a quick jab and D-tilt, and these are both options that have guaranteed followups until high percents. He boasts an admittedly situational kill confirm off of Red and Yellow grabs, a solid kill throw, fairly deadly smashes and the awesomeness that are Purple b-air and up-air. His F-Smash is among the best grounded spacing tools in the game, Purple Pikmin are among the best projectiles for walling out opponents, and his range basically makes him a sword character... or at least more of a sword character than Toon Link or Metaknight.

Yoshi is difficult for Olimar because Olimar's greatest weakness is air camping,

My has been having a lot of trouble with lately, and now I know why. Thanks for this great string of posts.

 

[blackghost]

Any other throw 50:50s for characters who otherwise struggle with her (or perhaps some advice)?

At low percent against combo characters she doesn't really have an airdodge. If you get her into tumble press your advantage carefully. She will panic with witch time or airdodge luckily you can cover both of those options with delaying your strings or if you feel confident purposefully whiffing an attack to get her to react.
Also if you are beneath her while she is airborne you are in a heavy advantage she cannot pressure downward.
Idk what character you play but a good strategy is to develop batwithin traps for your character or find moves that hit through batwithin.
Last advice is give is don't play scared. respect isn't the same as playing scared as a bayo player it's is very easy to tell when my opponent is scared vs when they are respecting options.