Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[HoSmash4]

A character should only be banned if they're fundamentally glitchy (see Diddy grab glitch) or if there was literally no reason not to play the character regardless of playstyle preference.

So no, I'm not on the ban MK/ pre patch Bayo boat. Even at that point you could opt to play ICs or pre patch sheik instead

Maybe pre patch Bayo if the results kept going up but that's just speculation

 

[Das Koopa]

Interjection:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6pfmw9/data_analysis_understanding_marth_lucinas/

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...nding-marth-lucinas-position-in-the-metagame/

Marth has suffered a near 50% decline in a three month time span.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Interjection:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6pfmw9/data_analysis_understanding_marth_lucinas/

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...nding-marth-lucinas-position-in-the-metagame/

Marth has suffered a near 50% decline in a three month time span.

This is rather sad to look at.

The saddest part about this is that it's not even Marth being "discovered", or "figured out". His good MU's against the vast majority of the top tier cast and his great tools still work. It's that his players haven't been using him as much. Leo has been using Cloud a lot more. Pugwest has been Pugewst; he has his peaks but is generally average. Fuwa seems to have disappeared.

Moreover, it's interesting to look at Marth's peak in phase 3 and how it starts to decline as Lucina's starts to rise. I'd say Mr E starting to use Lucina a little more here would have also been in part for him starting to drop a little. Mr E seems to have gone back to being a mostly Marth player however, so it's up to him to start placing higher again.

No matter what happens with Marth in terms of results, I can't see him any lower than a high tier character. The tools he possesses are just too good to rank him otherwise.

On a tool by tool basis, and MU basis, I still view him as a borderline top tier character however; BORDERLINE though. I don't like it how people rank him above the likes of Mewtwo, sometimes even Mario. Top players also still view him as a constant threat too, so that's enough to keep him relevant.

 

[|RK|]

Spoiler

@Anti how do you get all these smash players to stop bitching about bayo. I keep seeing it like every 3 hrs

— Kid Viper (@Kiddovaipah) July 25, 2017

Spoilered for sensitive language.

Idk, people are far too trigger-happy. People are just starting to learn these MUs in most cases (Sinji w/ Bayo), but as soon as Salem wins something, Bayo is impossible?

I'm honestly tired of this part where we look at a character and say "yeah, no losing MUs, broken," because we've done that many times in this thread alone. You remember when Monkey Flip was a get out of jail free card? When Sonic lost 0 matchups? When post-patch Sheik lost 0 matchups? When Bayonetta beat Cloud for free?

People see a powerful character and then quickly assume they're seeing the whole picture. Golly, Sonic couldn't beat out Bayo nairing over him.

It feels so incredibly shortsighted. A top player will always make their character's weaknesses look non-existent. Salem is really, really, really good. If you actually want to deal with her, maybe take some of those situations she's broken in and lab them out.

Saying Mario and Sonic won't be able to beat Bayonetta at a top level is a non-starter. We just sort of assume that bodying another top tier = broken. But Mario and Marth have had that dynamic for a while now. Rosa and Cloud to an extent. ZSS and Diddy.

Sonic won't win because Salem knows Sonic's entire soul and playbook. And then he abuses his character's powerful tools to exacerbate Sonic's weaknesses. I can bet other Bayos will lose to Sonic, though.

Mario is another case - yeah, his tools don't work so well against Bayonetta. That's just a bad MU. That's life sometimes. What I haven't seen yet is that Bayonetta is impossible to beat. Fatality will still beat them with Falcon (give it a bit, I know how his EVO went), Elegant with Luigi, and so on.

But just because Salem is something else entirely doesn't make it so for Bayonetta. When someone else comes CLOSE to matching his raw skill, then let's panic. In the meantime, all I see is the Diddy/ZeRo phenomenon all over again.

/postthatwastoolong

 

[ARISTOS]

This is rather sad to look at.

The saddest part about this is that it's not even Marth being "discovered", or "figured out". His good MU's against the vast majority of the top tier cast and his great tools still work. It's that his players haven't been using him as much. Leo has been using Cloud a lot more. Pugwest has been Pugewst; he has his peaks but is generally average. Fuwa seems to have disappeared.

Moreover, it's interesting to look at Marth's peak in phase 3 and how it starts to decline as Lucina's starts to rise. I'd say Mr E starting to use Lucina a little more here would have also been in part for him starting to drop a little. Mr E seems to have gone back to being a mostly Marth player however, so it's up to him to start placing higher again.

No matter what happens with Marth in terms of results, I can't see him any lower than a high tier character. The tools he possesses are just too good to rank him otherwise.

On a tool by tool basis, and MU basis, I still view him as a borderline top tier character however; BORDERLINE though. I don't like it how people rank him above the likes of Mewtwo, sometimes even Mario. Top players also still view him as a constant threat too, so that's enough to keep him relevant.

I agree that Marth hasn't been figured out. IMO, the main reason that hasn't gotten much play as of late is because . The latter wins all the MUs Marth wins, even moreso in some, and does better in MUs that Marth struggles in.

If you're looking for a swordsman why play Marth when you can play SSJ Marth (even has the blond, spiky hair!)

 

[Browny]

I agree that Marth hasn't been figured out. IMO, the main reason that hasn't gotten much play as of late is because . The latter wins all the MUs Marth wins, even moreso in some, and does better in MUs that Marth struggles in.

If you're looking for a swordsman why play Marth when you can play SSJ Marth (even has the blond, spiky hair!)

I'm so mad that I come into this thread after like 6 months and the first thing I see is this excuse that has lived on since 2008.

"Why would anyone play Lucas when Ness is better"
"No one plays fox because they all main wolf"
"Ike has a sword, Marth has a Sword. All Ike players dropped him for Marth"

All of those reasons are trash and the follow the same logic you are on. "Because a high tier character happens to have a similar trait to a lower tier character, the reason the lower tier character sees less results is because their mains are only capable of playing characters similar to them."

Marth has gotten less play because Cloud is a better character, end of story. Their similarities are irrelevant.

Guess which character has suffered the most since Cloud came out?

Its not Marth, its not Shulk, its

Spoiler

Bowser Jr

That's what happens when people drop worse characters for better characters. It has absolutely nothing to do with how similar they are, only the fact that people drop them because they are objectively worse than the new character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...having a shared archetype is DEFINITELY a factor.

But not the deciding factor I agree.

Marth is a good char that takes alot of effort. Cloud is a better char that takes effort, but not as much.

The choice is pretty clear who you would gravitate towards.

 

[Trunks159]

I'm so mad that I come into this thread after like 6 months and the first thing I see is this excuse that has lived on since 2008.

"Why would anyone play Lucas when Ness is better"
"No one plays fox because they all main wolf"
"Ike has a sword, Marth has a Sword. All Ike players dropped him for Marth"

All of those reasons are trash and the follow the same logic you are on. "Because a high tier character happens to have a similar trait to a lower tier character, the reason the lower tier character sees less results is because their mains are only capable of playing characters similar to them."

Marth has gotten less play because Cloud is a better character, end of story. Their similarities are irrelevant.

Guess which character has suffered the most since Cloud came out?

Its not Marth, its not Shulk, its

Spoiler

Bowser Jr!

That's what happens when people drop worse characters for better characters. It has absolutely nothing to do with how similar they are, only the fact that people drop them because they are objectively worse than the new character.

When you talk about Leo specifically, I do think he uses Cloud more often for that reason. Why use vs when has an easier time. How bout ? ? ? Or even against lesser characters like ,?

I think a big chunk of 's results came from Leo in the first place.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but is there some reason there's so much meta-moaning about the Smash community's ban moaning? Like, sure, people complain, but does anyone think a ban will actually happen? Let's be serious. "LOL, Smashers always want to ban things!" You realize you're talking about the same community that let a game die in large part because they were unable to ban an obviously broken character (Brawl MK). A huge number of players hate Pokemon Stadium jank in Melee, but it will never be banned, and I highly doubt any 'Frozen Stadium' solutions ever be seriously considered. Stages rarely get banned in Smash, and there's no history of a successful, community-wide character ban (pre-patch Bayo wasn't even close to a universal ban; everyone pretty much just laughed at Spain for it, as I recall) so it seems a little odd to say the community is ban-happy.

People whine online about a character whose specific design* minimizes the fun her opponent has in a fighting game. Shocking! Imagine ragging on people for hating SFV. "Aww, poor baby lost his invincible DP. Wah, wah, wah." Online salt doesn't equate to bans. People don't like things they don't like. It's not a surprise. No one prominent in the Smash community has asked for a ban on Bayo, and randoms on Reddit saying they want her banned are even a relative rarity. Tons of people hate her, but nearly all of them take it for granted that a ban isn't going to happen.

And now I've cried online about people crying online about people crying online. Be the change you wish to see in the world, etc. etc.

*It's not hard to see why so many people hate Bayo. The fun part of fighting games is hitting your opponent. The unfun part is being hit. When Bayo hits you, she keeps hitting you in succession, and you have to frantically SDI to avoid dying. When you hit Bayo, you need a true combo to continue your advantage state, or you are suddenly at risk of dying. Even getting that first hit relies on you not getting Witch Timed and getting through her giant hitboxes. She gets to hit you; you rarely get to hit her. Don't need a Ph.D to figure out what's salt-inducing about that design.

 

[TurboLink]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but is there some reason there's so much meta-moaning about the Smash community's ban moaning? Like, sure, people complain, but does anyone think a ban will actually happen? Let's be serious. "LOL, Smashers always want to ban things!" You realize you're talking about the same community that let a game die in large part because they were unable to ban an obviously broken character (Brawl MK). A huge number of players hate Pokemon Stadium jank in Melee, but it will never be banned, and I highly doubt any 'Frozen Stadium' solutions ever be seriously considered. Stages rarely get banned in Smash, and there's no history of a successful, community-wide character ban (pre-patch Bayo wasn't even close to a universal ban; everyone pretty much just laughed at Spain for it, as I recall) so it seems a little odd to say the community is ban-happy.

People whine online about a character whose specific design* minimizes the fun her opponent has in a fighting game. Shocking! Imagine ragging on people for hating SFV. "Aww, poor baby lost his invincible DP. Wah, wah, wah." Online salt doesn't equate to bans. People don't like things they don't like. It's not a surprise. No one prominent in the Smash community has asked for a ban on Bayo, and randoms on Reddit saying they want her banned are even a relative rarity. Tons of people hate her, but nearly all of them take it for granted that a ban isn't going to happen.

And now I've cried online about people crying online about people crying online. Be the change you wish to see in the world, etc. etc.

*It's not hard to see why so many people hate Bayo. The fun part of fighting games is hitting your opponent. The unfun part is being hit. When Bayo hits you, she keeps hitting you in succession, and you have to frantically SDI to avoid dying. When you hit Bayo, you need a true combo to continue your advantage state, or you are suddenly at risk of dying. Even getting that first hit relies on you not getting Witch Timed and getting through her giant hitboxes. She gets to hit you; you rarely get to hit her. Don't need a Ph.D to figure out what's salt-inducing about that design.

I don't think the Smash fanbase will ever find a character worthy of being banned unless said character goes 100/0 with at least half of the cast.

 

[Lord Dio]

She gets to hit you; you rarely get to hit her.

At least you actually get to hit her.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

At least you actually get to hit her.

Well, she's no Dio Brando.

 

[Browny]

When you talk about Leo specifically, I do think he uses Cloud more often for that reason. Why use vs when has an easier time. How bout ? ? ? Or even against lesser characters like ,?

I think a big chunk of 's results came from Leo in the first place.

Exactly, I don't think anyone would disagree with you there.

The point I am making is that Marth is not suffering due to a DLC character coming out who also happens to use a sword. Marth is suffering because the DLC character who came out happens to be top tier.

There is no argument anyone can make for Marth suffering from Cloud, that I can't equally make for Bowser Jr suffering the same.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Leo's not doing so hot since the switch to all Cloud, though.
He'd probably be better off going back to Marth.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Regarding Marcina's decline. MKLeo was the one who brought Marth into the spotlight using him to win sets of ZeRo and win ZeRo saga and Genesis 4 I believe using mostly Marth.

However currently MKLeo basically uses mostly Cloud now, and seems to prefer switching to his MK or Corrin in the times he is not confident with Cloud in an MU. Other Marth mains such as Mr.E and Pugwest have not been getting exactly stellar results too.

Lucina got poplulatirty for a while finding success as secondary / pocket character. With such notable players as Nairo and Ze...um I mean PersitantBlade in paticular doing well with her. But even now I do not see them or most other notable Lucina users bring her out as often as they did.

While they are still very good characters and around Top 15. It really seems like Marcina has peaked in success and results for now. and seems on the decline.

 

[|RK|]

Thing is, Marth only got his results after Cloud came out, and after Cloud was agreed to be top tier.

So I don't see how "Marth dropped because of Cloud" makes much sense. Marth dropped because MKLeo specifically uses Cloud, but that's a different statement.

Realistically, outside of him, the top players who used Marth still use him. So it has to be something else.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What it is, is Marth's top level players being good but not MKLeo good. Leo is going to carry decent weight when he's the one who won majors with him. That's not a rag on the other high and top level Marths but without Leo predominately using Marth your seeing what his results are like. It's sorta like Villager where you have one player at a level no other player of that character is at so once that one player starts showing up less and using Villager less his results take a noticeable dip.

Of course, the fact that Leo has shown Marth has the ability to win a major means anyone Marth can technically do the same, they just have to get to that level he is at first with the character.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I don't think the Smash fanbase will ever find a character worthy of being banned unless said character goes 100/0 with at least half of the cast.

You n*ggas effectively banned the Miis and 2/3 of them suck.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You n*ggas effectively banned the Miis and 2/3 of them suck.

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Miis are allowed with the 1111 movesets. Unfortunately, the 1111 movesets tend to be fairly bad (aside from Gunner). But what if the 1111 movesets had been decent? Like high-mid tier? Then people probably wouldn't call it "banning" Miis.

 

[PK Gaming]

So I guess I needed a better question. Allow me to rephrase that:
What do you guys think is needed for a character to be banned?

Oppressiveness and dominance on the level of Brawl MK or higher. Obviously that's not a measured take, but it's the simplest way I can convey my feelings without getting overly specific. In Brawl, the metagame straight up revolved around MK (and IC's, to a slightly lesser extent).

 

[NairWizard]

it's hard for me to say that MK and Ice Climbers ruined Brawl when we also had bull**** like Falco, Snake, and Olimar in the same game.

The game was just a complete mess. The fact that people still found ways to defend it and compete for so many years says a whole lot about the resilience and adaptability of our players.

This is also your yearly reminder that Brawl Snake had a frame-4 f-tilt that did 21% damage across both hits and late in Brawl's lifespan this move was regularly getting powershielded or spotdodged.

 

[Daisy101]

There any reason of why / are close in the same tier? I find Kamui air and edge pretty strong, but that's maybe just me exaggerated. and Nair/Fair are probably the best airs i find of any fire emblem characters in my opinion.

 

[ARGHETH]

There any reason of why / are close in the same tier? I find Kamui air and edge pretty strong, but that's maybe just me exaggerated. and Nair/Fair are probably the best airs i find of any fire emblem characters in my opinion.

Basically, they happened to land around the same area; they weren't really considered in context of each other. Top players tend to think oddly highly of Corrin for some reason, so he got top of high tier, while Lucina was considered a tier below Marth for various reasons, so she generally got put in mid high tier.

Nair is great, but Fair has a lot of competition among FE characters. Marth, Lucina, and Robin all have amazing Fairs.

 

[Nu~]

Levin F-air is arguably the best F-air in the game.

Luckily it's strapped to a char with a frame 7 jumpsquat :,)


Edit: Scratch that, unarguably
...not even mewtwo's F-air touches that level of absurdity lol.

 

[TDK]

I think brawl was designed to be used with items on. A good example of this is Sonic, who is the fastest character in the game, so he can pick up lots of items. Which is good, because Sonic's hitboxes and kill power in that game suck. Thankfully, items can do a lot of the big hitboxes and killing for him, and to top it off he has a final smash that is completely insane in terms of both speed ad kill power. That, to me, is why some characters are stupid bad, because you can just turn items on and they benefit a lot more from them than the stronger characters.

Lastly, I'd think double Cloud in doubles will reach a higher point of centralization than Bayo in singles, and would end up banned first, a la double MK.

EDIT: MSM 106 (112 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Falln
2nd: Locus
3rd: Eon
4th: Nicko
5th: K9Sbruce
5th: JK
7th: NotLast
7th: S2H

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Miis are allowed with the 1111 movesets. Unfortunately, the 1111 movesets tend to be fairly bad (aside from Gunner). But what if the 1111 movesets had been decent? Like high-mid tier? Then people probably wouldn't call it "banning" Miis.

It isn't the specials that makes the miis bad for the most part. It's their frame data, which is fixed by not being 50/50. Like you said, Gunners 1111 set is fine. Though, even on 0/0 Gunner would probably be lower mid tier tops, and swordfighter would remain low tier. A 0/0 Brawler could be another high/top tier though.

I'm just annoyed with the fact that my opponent can main Bayonetta and Sonic but oh no I had better not shorten my mii, that would be against the "rules". You know what, I'm not sure if this is exactly the place to ask this, but was there a big vote on mii legality or something? Who decided on that anyways? I want to know who I can blame for this. What exactly was the process behind deciding upon mii rulings and what group of people was that decision left up to?

 

[verbatim]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Miis are allowed with the 1111 movesets. Unfortunately, the 1111 movesets tend to be fairly bad (aside from Gunner). But what if the 1111 movesets had been decent? Like high-mid tier? Then people probably wouldn't call it "banning" Miis.

People call it banning mii's because there's a specific rule banning them :/

I can get behind mandating default mii's (doing stuff in the wii u menu takes forever), but you do the same thing to make a 3122 mii as you do to make a 111 mii. It'd be like if there was a rule banning certain character skins.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Salem's currently on discord with Xzax and ZeRo....as ZeRo learns Bayonetta.
https://www.twitch.tv/xzaxssb
I'm not stressing, but don't be surprised if you see him go down 0-2 in a dominant fashion and whip out the Bayo.

 

[Delzethin]

Levin F-air is arguably the best F-air in the game.

Luckily it's strapped to a char with a frame 7 jumpsquat :,)


Edit: Scratch that, unarguably
...not even mewtwo's F-air touches that level of absurdity lol.

Wow, I did not expect to see this when I stuck my head in here for the first time in a while. I see people talk about Levin stuff occasionally, but more often than not, all people see Robin for is projectiles and the Checkmate. But his forward air is arguably his actual best move!

We're talking a big, disjointed hitbox that comes up from below to stuff both grounded and aerial approaches, out-trades most attacks with 12.5% damage (enough to destroy almost all projectiles, even!), combos into itself and other aerials, and kills outright around 130 or so. But the reason it's so amazing? It does all of that with a FAF at Frame 34 that makes it deceptively low commitment (Marth's fair's FAF is 38 despite coming out 6 frames earlier), and it autocancels starting Frame 27! This makes it very difficult for even the fastest characters to punish if it's spaced properly, while also allowing it to frame trap airdodges near the stage to set up Robin's super high damage conversions!

It's a pretty ridiculous move and one of the reasons Robin can zone with disjoints just as effectively as with projectiles. Calling it the best forward air in the game is stretching it when the likes of Diddy's and Mewtwo's exist in their current forms, but it's unquestionably a Top 10 fair and maybe even Top 7.

 

[Nu~]

Wow, I did not expect to see this when I stuck my head in here for the first time in a while. I see people talk about Levin stuff occasionally, but more often than not, all people see Robin for is projectiles and the Checkmate. But his forward air is arguably his actual best move!

We're talking a big, disjointed hitbox that comes up from below to stuff both grounded and aerial approaches, out-trades most attacks with 12.5% damage (enough to destroy almost all projectiles, even!), combos into itself and other aerials, and kills outright around 130 or so. But the reason it's so amazing? It does all of that with a FAF at Frame 34 that makes it deceptively low commitment (Marth's fair's FAF is 38 despite coming out 6 frames earlier), and it autocancels starting Frame 27! This makes it very difficult for even the fastest characters to punish if it's spaced properly, while also allowing it to frame trap airdodges near the stage to set up Robin's super high damage conversions!

It's a pretty ridiculous move and one of the reasons Robin can zone with disjoints just as effectively as with projectiles. Calling it the best forward air in the game is stretching it when the likes of Diddy's and Mewtwo's exist in their current forms, but it's unquestionably a Top 10 fair and maybe even Top 7.

See I read this and agree 2000%, but then I'm puzzled when you say diddy's is better considering it can be ducked under, is punishable on shield, and it doesn't kill until like 130.
...unlike levin Fair lol

 

[HoSmash4]

Robin Fair is easily the best fair in the game. It's just stuck on a frame 7 jump squat

 

[Delzethin]

See I read this and agree 2000%, but then I'm puzzled when you say diddy's is better considering it can be ducked under, is punishable on shield, and it doesn't kill until like 130.
...unlike levin Fair lol

Diddy's fair is out on Frame 6 and can be pretty damn difficult to punish if it's spaced well...which isn't hard, because for some reason there's a disjoint on the end of it that makes it outrange most swordfighter fairs.

The damn monkey can invalidate any attempt at disjoint zoning with that single move.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Poor Robin.

I love the character, and really wish he was super good, but that frame 7 jumpsquat, mobility, overall poor grab and OoS options make him tough to play for me.

To me, he just feels like a character you can back into a corner and wail on because there's not a huge deal he can do to safely get out of there.

But when Robin is in advantage, his ability to dish out damage is very good. Plus he has Checkmate so that's always a boon (just sucks his grab is garbo).



And I like it when Diddy uses Fair in the Rosalina MU. It doesn't knock Luma away, isn't safe on shield, so you can just hold shield and jab him out of it. Yay.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It isn't the specials that makes the miis bad for the most part. It's their frame data, which is fixed by not being 50/50. Like you said, Gunners 1111 set is fine. Though, even on 0/0 Gunner would probably be lower mid tier tops, and swordfighter would remain low tier. A 0/0 Brawler could be another high/top tier though.

So small Brawler/Swordfighter 1111 would be decent?

I'm just annoyed with the fact that my opponent can main Bayonetta and Sonic but oh no I had better not shorten my mii, that would be against the "rules". You know what, I'm not sure if this is exactly the place to ask this, but was there a big vote on mii legality or something? Who decided on that anyways? I want to know who I can blame for this. What exactly was the process behind deciding upon mii rulings and what group of people was that decision left up to?

I don't think we're allowed to discuss this in this thread.

I can get behind mandating default mii's (doing stuff in the wii u menu takes forever), but you do the same thing to make a 3122 mii as you do to make a 111 mii. It'd be like if there was a rule banning certain character skins.

I don't think we're allowed to discuss this in this thread. I do know that some regions (in Europe, at least) allows custom Miis (guest size).

I'm not stressing, but don't be surprised if you see him go down 0-2 in a dominant fashion and whip out the Bayo.

It's a possibility. Or maybe he just wants to learn the MU? Playing the character himself helps.

Levin F-air is arguably the best F-air in the game.

Luckily it's strapped to a char with a frame 7 jumpsquat :,)

It's also limited by the durability system, which lessens its use as a zoning tool somewhat. I wonder how good Robin would be if she had unlimited uses of everything? Granted, she'd lose out on Tomes and throwable swords getting her out of combos, and she'd also lose out of a throwable item that can kill. Still, I'd imagine she'd be better, but how much? In other words, how much is Robin held back by the durability system? A little? A lot? Not much at all?

 

[Yikarur]

Europe's Standard is Guest Size with all moves.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Salem's currently on discord with Xzax and ZeRo....as ZeRo learns Bayonetta.
https://www.twitch.tv/xzaxssb
I'm not stressing, but don't be surprised if you see him go down 0-2 in a dominant fashion and whip out the Bayo.

lol What? so ZeRo is actually serious about learning and picking up Bayo as a secondary?

It has been said before. But Bayo does not really fit with ZeRo's overall playstyle of wanting to always control and overwhelm opponents in neutral. No matter how much Salem makes it look like she can at times.


Still its ZeRo after all. He can make likely make Secondary Bayo work if he really is serious about It.

 

[Mario766]

Robin Fair is easily the best fair in the game. It's just stuck on a frame 7 jump squat

It's also stuck on a frame 12 hitbox, which is slow.

Diddy's on the other hand will come out a whopping 9 frames faster when both moves are buffered, with an equally absurd hitbox that also scoops grounded/aerial approaches with strong combo ability and reset options, and is amazing at covering ledge options because the hitbox lasts 10 frames. It also auto cancels one frame earlier with Diddy Kong's faster fall speed making it faster to hit the ground and still AC.

Are you also trying to compare it to Mewtwo's frame 6 kill move that does more damage than Levin f-air, combos into itself at times, is a strong edgeguard tool, and isn't stuck on a frame 7 jumpsquat so it's a viable OoS option in a lot of situations? Oh

and it has a good hitbox, so it has that going for it too. A frame 19 f-air out of jump squat isn't very good.

I would know.

 

[|RK|]

ZeRo Bayo is more likely gonna be like ZeRo Cloud.

But, learning a character is a good way to learn how to fight them, so.

(on that note, be sure to check out Myollnir's Bayo guide. Super useful. On this subforum, even.)

 

[ARGHETH]

It's also stuck on a frame 12 hitbox, which is slow.

Diddy's on the other hand will come out a whopping 9 frames faster when both moves are buffered, with an equally absurd hitbox that also scoops grounded/aerial approaches with strong combo ability and reset options, and is amazing at covering ledge options because the hitbox lasts 10 frames. It also auto cancels one frame earlier with Diddy Kong's faster fall speed making it faster to hit the ground and still AC.

Are you also trying to compare it to Mewtwo's frame 6 kill move that does more damage than Levin f-air, combos into itself at times, is a strong edgeguard tool, and isn't stuck on a frame 7 jumpsquat so it's a viable OoS option in a lot of situations? Oh

and it has a good hitbox, so it has that going for it too. A frame 19 f-air out of jump squat isn't very good.

I would know.

We're comparing the moves in a vacuum, so jumpsquat isn't taken into account. And the difference between Robin and Mewtwo's is that Levin Fair has a better hitbox, lower FAF (34 to 38) and endlag (15 to 30), and has a much better autocancel.

 

[Mario766]

We're comparing the moves in a vacuum, so jumpsquat isn't taken into account. And the difference between Robin and Mewtwo's is that Levin Fair has a better hitbox, lower FAF (34 to 38) and endlag (15 to 30), and has a much better autocancel.

You can't compare moves in a vacuum like that as you have to take character attributes into consideration because they play a major factor into actually playing Smash 4.

That's a bad way to judge moves.