Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Double, whoops

 

[Das Koopa]

Rankings this early in the season (back-to-back majors at the start of a season) are completely worthless, the game is too volatile to rank it on a major-to-major basis. You need a snapshot of at least a couple of month to have a good idea of things

Cloudhead is fine but it's too soon to really interpret much beyond Salem & ZeRo being the top players this season

 

[PK Bash]

Mario actually has a grab game, and his quicker startup gives him superior mixups, with more guessing having to be done to not get grabbed and take 70% or get usmashed and die. Bayonetta has a superior punish game and longer limbs, but those don't equate to the same thing.

Luigi is much the same, with a better projectile to control space, but inferior mobility and landing options. His dash grab is straight broke, too, and his hitboxes and frame data allow him to create more ambiguous situations that lead into followups or death, of course.

I was wrong about ZSS and MK, I admit

Pit's entire STRENGTH is his neutral game, are you serious? He has tremendous space controlling options, forces the approach, has decent-good frame data, and a solid grab game (although not as good as the mario bros.).

Palutena's strength is her neutral game, too, I would say, but she has fewer potent killing options, and her damage output is mediocre, which is a lot of what makes her mid-low tier. But with superior mobility, a grab game (yes, that is very important), a practically unstoppable back air, and a better boxing game she edges out bayo in that regard.

Also it's important to keep in mind that even tho bayo DOES have burst mobility, unless she gets to the ledge, she's putting herself at risk by doing so. She doesn't have an aerial command grab, so long as you're diligent, you can punish special lag and condition her not to use it to escape as much. Sometimes you won't be able to and that's fine, and there are mixups that can make it harder, any competent bayo will try and use them to avoid punishment because landing with lag is a *****.

So I have a lot of respect for you for actually standing by your views and backing them up. I just want to respond because I think your logic needs refining.
So let's take your assessment of Mario and Luigi. I could apply basically all of that to Ness. And Ness' neutral is not better than Bayonetta's, I'll give you that for free.
"Ness actually has a grab game, his quicker startup gives him superior mixups, with more guessing having to be done to not get grabbed and take 70% or get up aired and die. Bayonetta has a possibly superior punish game and longer limbs, but those don't equate to the same thing. // Ness has inferior mobility to Mario but his dash grab is straight broke and his hitboxes and frame data allow him to create more ambiguous situations that lead into followups or death."

You see my gripe? Having a different set of advantages does not mean that they have a stronger neutral.
What makes Bayonetta's neutral strong, imo, is just how much she can get away with. She can slow the pace of the match right down and keep it that way for as long as she wants because the amount of respect you have to give to Witch Twist and Witch Time is nuts. You can't actually get away with a lot of mistakes vs Bayonetta, yet she can basically do whatever the hell she wants to you with the risk-reward massively on her side. To me, that is a good indicator that a neutral is strong, and characters like Mario, Luigi, Ness, Pit can't match Bayo in that one facet of neutral.
OK so maybe her approach isn't the best. Maybe her mixups aren't up there with Sheik and Fox or Mario or whoever. But do they need to be? IDK but I'm inclined to think that her neutral is plenty strong enough despite that. She's got the defensive game, the pressure game, and some strong footsies to boot with the ability to disengage whenever she wants, and all the while the risk-reward generally favours her rather than her opponent.

So yeah I could be way off the mark, call me out if you want but for those reasons I think Bayonetta has a stronger neutral than most of the characters you originally listed. If you can rephrase your logic to explain why the key advantages of those characters outweigh Bayo's, or if you have a different view of Bayo's neutral, then I'm all ears.

----
Incidentally, the theme among the characters that people percieve to have a fighting chance against Bayo appears to be the characters with high potential reward per hit, with a few anomalies (Lucas, interestingly, comes up a lot but doesn't fit this criteria - and imo loses the mu). It's not necessarily to do with risk, although obviously low risk helps, possibly because of how Bayo skews it. Food for thought. Could be incorrect logic, but it's the pattern I'm seeing from Aba, this thread, and elsewhere.

 

[HoSmash4]

Nvm ignore this

 

[TTTTTsd]

Long story short, the letter classifications are almost entirely irrelevant. PGR is calculated by point value. Since people were complaining that Dreamhack was an S-tiers (right after EVO), PGR added "S+" which represents the extremely high point value, but doesn't actually mean anything.



I can see that, and I agree we should be more focused on top 5 than top ten now... But at the same time, I don't think the other characters have become less capable in the meta... just need stronger rep.

Not ZSS though - ZSS has godlike rep in Nairo... She's just... Idk. I don't see where her meta goes from here. Even the top 5 could stand to get stronger. ZSS though? But maybe I'm not up to date on her latest improvements. But from what I understand, she kinda loses to... all of the top 4.

You're making note of the very obviously increasing funnel. The meta is coming down to 4 characters: Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud. The outliers we have now are awesome but in about 1-2 years I could very easily see those four being the primary choices and that's it.

Ah, DLC.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

You're making note of the very obviously increasing funnel. The meta is coming down to 4 characters: Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud. The outliers we have now are awesome but in about 1-2 years I could very easily see those four being the primary choices and that's it.

Ah, DLC.

Rosa will always be relevant threats with Larry and Dabuz (Kirahara too) doing super scary stuff with their mains respectively. They make them look like they could be around #5-6 on the tier list

KEN has been making Sonic relevant at the top competitive levels again.

 

[Frihetsanka]

These are probably going to be relevant for a while:

and these are hard but still doable (might need stage pick)
Mario/Peach/MK/Ryu/Mewtwo/Pika

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

I would also personally include and maybe on this list, too.

Is "can beat" someone with a winning matchup, an even MU, or a MU not worse than 45:55? Given the amount of characters I'm guessing it's either even MUs or 45:55 MUs. How many MUs does Bayonetta actually lose?

 

[Flamegeyser]

So I have a lot of respect for you for actually standing by your views and backing them up. I just want to respond because I think your logic needs refining.
So let's take your assessment of Mario and Luigi. I could apply basically all of that to Ness. And Ness' neutral is not better than Bayonetta's, I'll give you that for free.
"Ness actually has a grab game, his quicker startup gives him superior mixups, with more guessing having to be done to not get grabbed and take 70% or get up aired and die. Bayonetta has a possibly superior punish game and longer limbs, but those don't equate to the same thing. // Ness has inferior mobility to Mario but his dash grab is straight broke and his hitboxes and frame data allow him to create more ambiguous situations that lead into followups or death."

You see my gripe? Having a different set of advantages does not mean that they have a stronger neutral.
What makes Bayonetta's neutral strong, imo, is just how much she can get away with. She can slow the pace of the match right down and keep it that way for as long as she wants because the amount of respect you have to give to Witch Twist and Witch Time is nuts. You can't actually get away with a lot of mistakes vs Bayonetta, yet she can basically do whatever the hell she wants to you with the risk-reward massively on her side. To me, that is a good indicator that a neutral is strong, and characters like Mario, Luigi, Ness, Pit can't match Bayo in that one facet of neutral.
OK so maybe her approach isn't the best. Maybe her mixups aren't up there with Sheik and Fox or Mario or whoever. But do they need to be? IDK but I'm inclined to think that her neutral is plenty strong enough despite that. She's got the defensive game, the pressure game, and some strong footsies to boot with the ability to disengage whenever she wants, and all the while the risk-reward generally favours her rather than her opponent.

So yeah I could be way off the mark, call me out if you want but for those reasons I think Bayonetta has a stronger neutral than most of the characters you originally listed. If you can rephrase your logic to explain why the key advantages of those characters outweigh Bayo's, or if you have a different view of Bayo's neutral, then I'm all ears.

----
Incidentally, the theme among the characters that people percieve to have a fighting chance against Bayo appears to be the characters with high potential reward per hit, with a few anomalies (Lucas, interestingly, comes up a lot but doesn't fit this criteria - and imo loses the mu). It's not necessarily to do with risk, although obviously low risk helps, possibly because of how Bayo skews it. Food for thought. Could be incorrect logic, but it's the pattern I'm seeing from Aba, this thread, and elsewhere.

Thank you for the convincing and reasonable reply. There's a reason I didn't include Ness in the original, and it's because I feel his poor mobility with few outstanding options besides the regular ones doesn't give him the edge.

Yes, you do have to respect witch time in one facet or another, but I don't think it's broken enough to call her neutral any much better than the likes of Mario. Witch time stales on its own, and can absolutely NOT be used to react to something that's not slow as molasses. I use the example of this; a Luigi and I are at kill% and I'm fishing for a bair, but I know he'll try to usmash me if I jump too much, to which I have no answer but witch time. I have to guess if/when I jump he's going to usmash, and in ANY respect if I screw up, I'm dead, no matter what. You can't just react to that, and guessing is as much against you as for you should the opponent know what to do. Witch Twist is nice for punishing, but a straight up witch twist isn't really that scary. At worst you'll take like 20% unless you get reset somehow or killed from it (which shouldn't be happening from the ground). It's lack of horizontal range doesn't really allow you to anti air with it unless the opponent goes recklessly above you.

The best thing a bayo can do, really, is force the approach. I don't know why, but I didn't consider that part of neutral for some reason when thinking about my last post (which makes no sense, I mean it's literally what to do in a neutral position). When she can force the approach is when she's at her scariest, because she doesn't have to worry about all of that stupid approaching, mixing up with poor options, or fishing for a linear kill move or punishable witch time crap. She's put at the biggest disadvantage when she's forced to approach for that reason, which luckily isn't always, but many of the characters I listed can still force that, and on characters besides her too, while they have potent offensive options and quicker defensive options that put them at less risk. Her approach forcing options are admittedly not that scary to a lot of characters, either. Her best grounded BA are dtilt, which are suitable enough, but everything else does pitiful damage by comparison, and it has enough lag that it's not free damage without low commitment and thus a low number of bullets. BA nair is harder to hit, but does a max of like 1.5% per volley, and that's if the opponent is in prime position. It's no needles, peanut popgun/banana, shuriken, or hell even Fireball. Neutral B is almost entirely ineffectual on the ground and so laggy that even using it to counter jumps from afar is risky.

I hope that helps, and I get it if you disagree, I'd love to hear more back.

 

[Illuminose]

Is "can beat" someone with a winning matchup, an even MU, or a MU not worse than 45:55? Given the amount of characters I'm guessing it's either even MUs or 45:55 MUs. How many MUs does Bayonetta actually lose?

i'd interpret it as even or -1

bayonetta does not lose any matchups; any and all of her supposed bad mus have been overcome time and time again at this point

 

[Iron Kraken]

You're making note of the very obviously increasing funnel. The meta is coming down to 4 characters: Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud. The outliers we have now are awesome but in about 1-2 years I could very easily see those four being the primary choices and that's it.

Ah, DLC.

It's pretty silly to say the meta is coming down to those four characters when you have people like Dabuz (Rosa), Larry (Fox), Nairo (ZSS), and KEN (Sonic) making top 8 with amazing consistency.

It's not really so different from how ZeRo is the only Diddy making top 8 with any sort of consistency when you think about it.

 

[|RK|]

I'm sure Bayonetta has "losing MUs," just hasn't been looked into deeply enough. Thing is, she feels like the ultimate "MU buster" character (others include Ryu, Lucario, DK, pre-patch Meta Knight, etc.). That is to say, she will always have the tools necessary to win. Furthermore, her win conditions tend to be available to her in any matchup.

That said, much of what makes Bayonetta obnoxious are player-based. Death combos have counterplay (ZeRo and VoiD only got taken off the top once... of course, it was their final stock lol), Witch Time is... the best counter, but a counter nonetheless. Other things she has are giant hitboxes and really, really good escape options.

But the thing is - tool-wise, I don't think she has much that good characters straight up CAN'T contest. CaptainZack's recent Mac struggles - though player-based - show exactly that sort of thing. Yeah, she has giant hitboxes... but she still can't contest Mac's speed, frame data, or armor. So she still has to find a way around those things to get things started (or let you do it for her).

But anyways, I was saying:

Witch Time: Player-based up close, but you can limit how often it comes out if you have a grab game or a projectile.
Giant hitboxes: Not particularly uncommon, projectiles also beat these. Range too, but you don't want to swing too late & get Witch Timed
Escape options: Can catch her with projectiles. Or if you have speed, that.

And so on.

Like, if you're a character that doesn't have true combos off of grab & is slow, you're probably going to struggle. But there are enough characters in this game that have the tools to contest her stuff directly.

When I think of "can't contest," I think of things like Luma, Diddy fair, Sheik needles, Sonic spindash, or even Olimar's Pikmin. But most of what Bayonetta has doesn't seem to *dominate* most characters. Usually, when I see Bayonetta players dominate, it's because A) the other character simply can't catch them, and thus gets hit while chasing and being impatient or B) they don't perform fundamental counterplay to her stuff.

So even with Salem doing AMAZING recently, I sort of stand by Rosalina remaining as the most dominant top tier (i.e., has the most polarizing MUs against characters beneath her). Most of what Bayo does seems like it can (and will be) adjusted to in the future.

 

[TDK]

It appears you all need a reminder that diversity in this game is still going strong:

Randall City (108 Entrants) (Alberta)

1st: Big D
2nd: JJROCKETS
3rd: TooManyCooks
4th: Captain L
5th: Exodia
5th: Alphicans
7th: MD
7th: Shoghi

And characters that can give Bayo trouble seem to be of two minds: Either take the lead and never approach her, or keep up with her damage output, usually off of grabs.

 

[Lord Dio]

Now where did I put that "did well at a tournament of decent size" award that i gave to Ganon and Zelda.........
oh, there it is.
Nice to see Big D is still rocking the Big D.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I dunno, to new the Bayo's only suspect MU's seem to be Cloud and also Sheik but thats only depending on the stage. Every other character It seems like she goes even at worst.
It's no diffrent than the likes of Cloud ,Rosa and Sheik who also only seem to have now only one 1 or 2 suspectable MU's as well.

Sheik: , MAYBE
Rosalina : MAYBE but Dabuz and Kirahara have been steadily doing better in the MU

: but even that is looking better for Cloud lately . May have some MU's that can give him problems is certain areas ( maybe?) But Cloud likey still slightly "wins" them

: Said to have quite a few suspect MU's. but ZeRo has shown to overcome them because he is ZeRo. The only MU he seeks to struggle with currently is Rosa


I see no reason to say why Bayo cannot be considered as dominating and polarizing as those 3.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I mean, when melee has fox, sheik, falco, marth, puff, Falcón, ICs, Luigi, yoshi, samus, peach, and pikachu placing still after 13 years, you can't say smash 4 will just be about the 4 top with a handful of rarities showing up.

 

[Game7a1]

It appears you all need a reminder that diversity in this game is still going strong:

Randall City (108 Entrants) (Alberta)

1st: Big D
2nd: JJROCKETS
3rd: TooManyCooks
4th: Captain L
5th: Exodia
5th: Alphicans
7th: MD
7th: Shoghi

I needed to see who Captain L used Puff to win games off of, and he took JJROCKETS to game 5 with her (well, mostly her).
Nice to see his Puff doing work.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean, when melee has fox, sheik, falco, marth, puff, Falcón, ICs, Luigi, yoshi, samus, peach, and pikachu placing still after 13 years, you can't say smash 4 will just be about the 4 top with a handful of rarities showing up.

I mean if you take my quote out of the context it was presented in then yeah of course it sounds dumb. I'm speaking of characters that will win and do significantly well in tournament, for which I would imagine we'll have 4-8 of, with 8 being a marginally possible outcome assuming this counterplay rolls around and proves to be reliable. Who knows, but I just think we quite obviously have about 4 chars that are vastly outperforming the rest of the cast atm. Sure you'll see some others in Top 30, definitely Top 100. You can't magically expunge character variety without having something blatantly impossible to deal with tbh, that's common logic. Primary choices !=! only choices. Worth noting. But the 4 I listed are looking like premier meta characters to be honest, for the everyman and for the seasoned veteran.

Also Melee rn is literally Fox, Marth, Jiggs, and Sheik mostly, as far as high end placings go. Falco has kind of vanished in a lot of Top 8s, I kinda miss the guy.

 

[|RK|]

Rankings this early in the season (back-to-back majors at the start of a season) are completely worthless, the game is too volatile to rank it on a major-to-major basis. You need a snapshot of at least a couple of month to have a good idea of things

Cloudhead is fine but it's too soon to really interpret much beyond Salem & ZeRo being the top players this season

Sure, but it's nice to track stats. People always ask "who is best right now," "how is so and so doing," and more, so it's good to have a system that shows that kind of thing. Since it became a little bigger, people get those questions answered faster. Then, the season-end systems show the consistency. I know Practical TAS was curious to see how close it got to the PGR come time - so it'll be good for a test run.

 

[Shaya]

This is a bit disingenuous of me, and late and out of no where (perhaps), also hello friends it's been a while.
(I wrote this post roughly 3 pages ago but didn't end up submitting it at the time, looks like Bayo conversation started coming up again afterwards, d'oh).
Cloud and Bayo are above the bell curve in close to every practical department. In particular their designs circumvent one of the staple tenants of higher level smash skills - which is whiff punishing. Yes, you can whiff punish them, but their margins for such are so stupendously tiny that a majority of the cast, including top tiers, don't have answers for it - even if they consistently make the right read, the technical window for doing so is negligible.
Why aren't Bayo or Cloud playing the same game as everyone else? because their buttons come with huge hitboxes, long durations and wide areas of effect (plus are all sub 10 frames on block, mostly 5 or less); the same read with ZSS/Fox/Mario/the entire cast (Diddy and Sheik have it better than most still) require insane timing and spacing not to trade or lose out in such an uphill onslaught - if the best in the cast have issues, how are those below meant to deal with it?
It's muskets and rifles verses spears and arrows. Our heroes, the Zulu warriors Nairo, ZeRo and the like using their bananas, lumas, slappers and plumbers etc will continue pushing the technology they have, adapting to the very difficult odds (not saying the odds for Smash4 are as horrendous as spears vs guns). To reinforce the analogy further; the best trained archers were individually able to match the potency of gunpowder weapons for centuries (there were still archer regiments during the 20th century; there are decorated soldiers who fought trench warfare using bow and arrows, this is more insane to me than a ganon winning evo), the problem, or the reason archery is 'dead' in warfare; is a life time of training was necessary to only be marginally better than a 14 year old disposable and scared boy given a helmet, a musket and told to hold and pull the trigger when shouted at.

When I watch Salem full hop (literally) directly above the head of Ken's Sonic and neutral air continuously and there was close to nothing he could do about it, I'm not seeing a blatantly bannable character, I'm seeing rifles verses rocks (and unlike a rock thrower in theory can get lucky against a helicopter, Bayo is designed to not combust no matter how well aimed that rock is); if Ken did get into a favourable position in the air or on the ground, Salem would up-b/side-b away with near impunity.
I am reminded of MK's dair camping in brawl - when the jumps got low, it was time to tornado away, another horrendously difficult to beat/punish move just to add insult to injury (it also had minimum 30 frames of end lag, even more if misused, apologists pretending this matters for Bayo when they have an entire stage to choose from are a little silly IMO). When this game came out there was an insanely huge sigh of relief from the Brawl player base that no character had anything remotely similar to this ("I'm purposely putting myself in a situation where everyone else would be in disadvantage, but in fact I'm winning neutral the entire time I'm doing it"). Yes this example highlights Sonic's weaknesses here (hitbox priority, start up, aerial weaving), but for the most part only swords have an answer. And only Cloud's sword has low enough commitment to actually play toe to toe with this dynamic.

Cloud at least has one bona fide shortfall in his gimpability, things like his up-b being purposely programmed to disallow techs mid animation. Intended counter play, brilliant! This can get him killed at any percent, it's always an option (this always available option is arguably the second biggest reason Salem won evo)
I don't think it makes sense that Bayo can double up-b and still retain a mid air jump (seeing as you're required to use that mid air jump for the second one, why get it back?). If you don't want her losing combo ability, then being able to immediately jump after a second up-b but losing it if not used would still allow those combos but would actually give this crazy character some counterplay in more disadvantaged situations (if you somehow hit her out of a second up-b I think she should die, but aye, I'm biased).
Challenge question: why doesn't everyone in the cast get their jump refunded if they up-b within the first frame?

They are game killers.
Maybe 'game' is too much, heck I survived throughout the entirety of Brawl's lifetime and I'm not confident to say super-DLC is 'worse' than MK or ICs; 'player enthusiasm killer' though? Definitely.
They will continue to be the dismay of active players at nearly all levels of play.
Call them weak, but the bow and spear wielding soldiers are losing morale fast.
No one is ever going to be able to convince everyone they're "broken" or "ban-worthy" though.
The battle rages on.

 

[Lord Dio]

Question for those who play other fighting games outside of Smash, or keep up with comp scenes outside of smash: In other fighting games, do top players have "bracket demons" like top smash players have?

 

[Das Koopa]

DreamHack Atlanta (July 21st23rd) (Southeast) (393 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: MVG | Salem
2nd: CLG | VoiD
3rd: P1 | Tweek ,
4th: NRG| Nairo ,
5th: IMT | ANTi ,
5th: MSF| Larry Lurr
7th: RNG| Dabuz ,
7th: BC | Mr. R ,
9th: TSM | ZeRo
9th: Vinnie
9th: PG | ESAM
9th: Samsora
13th: C9 | Ally
13th: PES | Peabnut (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th: P1 | Captain Zack
13th: RvL | Mr. E
17th: YP | Fatality
17th: FOX MVG | MKLeo
17th: PSI | Sells (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: DA | Sinji
17th: PG | MVD
17th: StDx | Falln
17th: Ned
17th: Wrath
25th: Salt One ,
25th: Cosmos
25th: OES | Eldin
25th: Noble | Manny
25th: Mekos
25th: Clemson | RFang
25th: Gravity | Blank
25th: Edax | HyperKirby

Spoiler: MIUS: Nightmare in Memeland (July 22nd) (Midwest) (122 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Zinoto
2nd: Rayquaza07 ,
3rd: LOE1 ,
4th: Nom
5th: Nero
5th: Miloni
7th: Smasher1001 ,
7th: Blade

Spoiler: Randall City (July 23rd) (West Canada) (108 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Big D ,
2nd: JJROCKETS
3rd: 2ManyCooks
4th: Captain L ,
5th: Exodia
5th: Alphicans
7th: MD
7th: Shoghi

Spoiler: Smash Academia (July 23rd) (Southwest) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Farenheit
2nd: Red Panda
3rd: Tetsuyalol
4th: Mario Pedraza
5th: _Cano_
5th: Khade ,
7th: SoulKir
7th: Diago

Spoiler: Down B July Monthly (July 23rd) (Midwest) (88 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Nameless
2nd: Marshall
3rd: Comet
4th: Cookietic
5th: Slenderman
5th: Kwaz
7th: Skorpio
7th: yeti ,

Spoiler: Terronship X – Civil War (July 23rd) (Italy) (44 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: M4E ,
2nd: Dinarimer
3rd: Sim-Max ,
4th: Fake

Spoiler: Invasion 17 (July 22nd) (New England) (54 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Light
2nd: Angel Cortes
3rd: LingLing
4th: Kogarasuma

Spoiler: Revenge of the Shoxs (July 22nd) (East Canada) (65 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Blacktwins ,
3rd: Yoh ,
4th: Chrim Foish

Spoiler: Tropicon Series 4 Final Edition (July 22nd) (Chile) (40 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Keen
2nd: Tales
3rd: FirehaoJG
4th: MK~IoRi

Spoiler: Warriors Hall Ponce (July 22nd) (Puerto Rico) (32 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Eking
2nd: Xeon
3rd: RKO
4th: S@nt

Spoiler: Singles @ Al Majis (July 22nd) (United Arab Emirates) (25 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MyLife
2nd: Prado
3rd: Shiba ,
4th: Karamel

Spoiler: Final Cutter 6 (July 22nd) (Tristate) (41 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Shoyo James
2nd: JaKaL
3rd: The Great Gonzales
4th: Wraith

Spoiler: Burst 2 (July 21st-22nd) (France) (66 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny ,
2nd: Dakou
3rd: Griffith ,
4th: Ogey

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 499
Diddy Kong: 482
Cloud: 388
Sheik: 317.5
Sonic: 305
Mario: 279.5
Fox: 278
Rosalina & Luma: 233.5
Zero Suit Samus: 228
Ryu: 175.5
Mewtwo: 165.5
Corrin: 119
Mega Man: 118
Meta Knight: 113.5
Pikachu: 106
Ness: 102.5
Peach: 101.5
Donkey Kong: 101
Luigi: 96
Captain Falcon: 94.5
Marth: 92.5
Villager: 91
Bowser: 81.5
Greninja: 76.5
Toon Link: 64.5
Lucina: 63.5
Lucas: 62.5
Olimar: 61.5
R.O.B.: 59
Samus: 52.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Lucario: 46.5
Yoshi: 43.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Little Mac: 35
Ike: 31
Wario: 26.5
Roy: 26.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Charizard: 25.5
Link: 20
Palutena: 18
Pit: 18
Pac-Man: 17.5
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 9
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 6.5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

 

[Aaron1997]

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

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Wow what's Shulk doing way down there.

 

[Das Koopa]

kome and nicko just kind of vanished lmao

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wow. Look how high Bayo and Diddy are now compared to Cloud who is #3 in points.

 

[Game7a1]

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 499
Diddy Kong: 482
Cloud: 388
Sheik: 317.5
Sonic: 305
Mario: 279.5
Fox: 278
Rosalina & Luma: 233.5
Zero Suit Samus: 228
Ryu: 175.5
Mewtwo: 165.5
Corrin: 119
Mega Man: 118
Meta Knight: 113.5
Pikachu: 106
Ness: 102.5
Peach: 101.5
Donkey Kong: 101
Luigi: 96
Captain Falcon: 94.5
Marth: 92.5
Villager: 91
Bowser: 81.5
Greninja: 76.5
Toon Link: 64.5
Lucina: 63.5
Lucas: 62.5
Olimar: 61.5
R.O.B.: 59
Samus: 52.5
Duck Hunt: 51
Lucario: 46.5
Yoshi: 43.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Little Mac: 35
Ike: 31
Wario: 26.5
Roy: 26.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 26
Charizard: 25.5
Link: 20
Palutena: 18
Pit: 18
Pac-Man: 17.5
Shulk: 12
King Dedede: 10
Ganondorf: 9
Falco: 8
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 6.5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

I think Puff needs to be above Zelda (6.5 > 5).

 

[Nu~]

Sinji getting 17th at an S tier event is very notable tbh.

He managed to take out the likes of Saj (2-1), Mekos (3-0), and Tachyon (2-1).

PB&J told me Pac does pretty good vs Bayo. I believe him. The match up just takes a lot of mental stamina.

— Sinji (@Sinji93) July 23, 2017

He seems to believe that Bayo isn't too bad, and during a recent interview after winning Xeno 70, he stated that Cloud wasn't as awful as many pacman mains make it out to be.

Then at dreamhack, he played a few friendlies with Ned and came back saying that the matchup is alright.

Spoiler

Idk, perhaps this is a sign of a small return of Pac-Man rep and results?
I guess we'll see how well Tea does at the August Umebura.

 

[NairWizard]

You know why all the people defending Bayo (or most of them) tend to be Bayo mains? It's not just love of the character. It's because playing the character makes you aware of her weakness. And by "aware of her weaknesses," I mean aware of your weaknesses. The Bayo players who don't think that she's that good are actually just projecting their own skills and the skills of other Bayos around their level onto the character. The reason your character doesn't feel broken is because you're not doing what Salem is doing.

"But this means that it's Salem, not Bayonetta."

No, it's very clearly Bayonetta too, not just Salem. Just because you can't consistently do what he's doing doesn't make what he's doing any less broken. Most players can't consistently chaingrab with Ice Climbers in Brawl, does that mean they're not broken? No, 9B still makes them look like the dumbest thing to ever hit the smash series by far when he plays; there's very little counterplay involved against their CG.

Before you cry foul about neutral theory, just think about it in terms of risk and reward. That's all this game is. It's just numbers in the end. Bayonetta has the best risk:reward ratio in the entire game bar none.

Think about characters with top-tier options in disadvantage. Think about Sheik with Bouncing Fish, or ZSS with Flip Kick, or Pikachu with Quick Attack. You know what the difference between these options and Bayonetta's Witch Twist/Time/kicks/whatever is? They don't kill you.
When ZSS Flip Kicks out of your combo she resets to neutral.
When Bayonetta Witch Twists out of your combo she "resets" to advantage.
She skips an entire part of the game.

She even enjoys being on the ledge as Salem demonstrates. She handles ledgetrapping scenarios with almost a malicious gleefulness.

This would be like if you had a 2D fighter where a character's wake-up animation had a 50% chance to delete half your health.

lol. That sounds ridiculous just thinking about it, and when you put it in this context you realize that Bayonetta's design is actually ridiculous. She isn't playing the same game at all.

You want to compare her to ZSS? ZSS has combos on you that start from a frame 16-24 move with like a full second of endlag. Bayo's combos start from a frame 4 move that she can use out of shield, and it's incredibly difficult to punish. They are worlds apart.

Compared to ZSS, who is, might I remind you, a top-15 character at the least, and very likely a top-10 character, Bayonetta mops the floor with her in disadvantage, has a significantly better neutral (functional grab and ground game, bullet arts, up-tilt is randomly amazing for anti-airs), and has a better, more applicable advantage state. Bayo isn't just better. She's tiers better. Than an already-top-10 character. And the gap will only increase with time.

Just crunch the numbers. Compare how much damage Bayonetta stands to take vs. how much she threatens to deal in any given situation in the game. It's always in Bayo's favor. In every matchup, against every character.

She doesn't lose any matchups and if she has any even matchups it's likely just Sheik and Cloud.

Salem is convinced that she beats Diddy and his reasoning is extremely sound. The risk:reward just doesn't add up for Diddy, and he doesn't win neutral by enough to make up for it.

2 even matchups and +1 against every other character in the cast, or better.


Definitely deserves a tier of her own above everyone else.

Next S-Tier, I believe that Salem will not win. The talent around him is just too honed and everyone will focus on Bayo counterplay and be ready for his defensive play, and he'll fall somewhere before making top 4. That' smy prediction.

But in the next two years, I do think Bayonetta will dominate the metagame in every way possible, at all levels of play.

Still don't think she's banworthy. It's obvious that she's far and away the best character by a significant margin to most people thinking critically about the situation, but that doesn't make the game unplayable, it just reduces the character pool you can use against her severely.

You actually think Sonic and Mario could beat Bayonetta at top level a year from now?

My money's on no. If I'm wrong, I'll come back and apologize graciously.

 

[Pyrover]

Question for those who play other fighting games outside of Smash, or keep up with comp scenes outside of smash: In other fighting games, do top players have "bracket demons" like top smash players have?

Yeah. They're not as talked about in other games, but bracket demons exist in most popular fighters. Justin Wong in MvC3, for example, had two notable demons for years... and then stomped them at EVO 2015, but I digress. They tend to be given more importance in Smash than in most games, but people consistently lose the same matchups in top level play in all games. It's just assumed that these players will lag out the matchups after a few losses, and usually prove themselves capable of winning fast enough that it doesn't become a talked about issue.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

kome and nicko just kind of vanished lmao

1. Kome got a job right after civil war and pretty much moved away from the smash scene in Japan all together, so there's no telling when he will come back.
2. Nicko wants to improve as a player in general before going to majors, so he's going to socal locals like MSM and WNF to get good practice and grind hard matchups like shiek and fox.(in fact he's at the msm going on rn) His next major is smashcon though so you can catch him there.
3. I guess M is carrying the character in Europe lmao

EDIT: speaking of tonight's msm, Shaya post couldn't have come at a better time. Locus is going all bayonetta lol. Apparently it's for dealing with sonic so tonight is a test run for him

 

[The-Technique]

Bayonetta mops the floor with her in disadvantage

I don't really have a problem with most of this post, but ZSS is really only in trouble when whiffing either a grab or boost kick. Otherwise ZSS can get out of any juggle or landing situation with down B combined with her superb mobility and comparable offstage game and mixups.

 

[verbatim]

I think people are going to find that Bayo winning vs Sonic has a lot more to do with Salem than it does with the character matchup. KEN's extremely dominant vs every other Bayo (bar Zack who I don't think he has ever played). Speaking of Zack, at the tournament where people got mad at him vs MVD he went 1-1 in Sonic sets w/ 6WX (loss) and Manny (win).


I would say even more than anything else right now.

 

[Minordeth]

Okay, I'm going to try and take a break from this thread soon, because this Bayo tunnel vision is starting to get out of hand. I love this thread, but damn.

NairWizard - I like your posts, fam, and disclaimer, I'm not a Bayo main, but I just don't know about some of this.

Bayo isn't just better. She's tiers better. Than an already-top-10 character. And the gap will only increase with time.

Like, seriously, coming from other fighting games, Bayo is clearly not tiers above the other top tiers. Being tiers above requires that character to actually be on the level of a Street Fighter 2 Akuma, like invalidating every other character with minimal effort better.

As for the "Bayo has a different class of disadvantage" - I know you've seen Nairo flip kick out of some shenanigans and then reverse it around and kill someone who was chasing him. He literally does it all the time on his stream. Both quick attack and Bouncing Fish can also be used to turn the tables, albeit they are much more contextually based than Witch Twist.

You want to compare her to ZSS? ZSS has combos on you that start from a frame 16-24 move with like a full second of endlag. Bayo's combos start from a frame 4 move that she can use out of shield, and it's incredibly difficult to punish. They are worlds apart.

And if she whiffs it, she has to use one of her other specials to escape. And then she accumulates at least 30 frames of lag and her options are predictable. Now, I agree, not every character can pressure her at this point. But all of the top tiers (and some non-top tiers) absolutely can, at the least, force her to the ledge if she whiffs. And if they are caught in the air attacking her shield with unsafe spacing, that's on them.

When Bayonetta Witch Twists out of your combo she "resets" to advantage.

If Bayo is caught in a true combo, she can't Witch Twist out of it. It's a combo. If you meant Bat Within, then okay, that is a get out of Jail Free card with limits, but you seem to overplaying her strengths to make a point. Too many top players rely on strings, rather than combos, and they have thus far been able to coast with those strings. So in that sense, I'm glad at least Salem is punishing those tendencies.

She even enjoys being on the ledge as Salem demonstrates. She handles ledgetrapping scenarios with almost a malicious gleefulness.

She has limited options off the ledge, and her quickest one happens to be one that a lot of the cast can actually straight duck under and actually punish. If she jumps at does Nair, she has no hitbox underneath her, which is why she gets caught by say, Dabuz throwing out Upsmashes with malicious gleefulness. Salem was running into a hell of a time getting off the ledge against Void in game 1, until Void, like every other top player literally let him land with Nair.

Definitely deserves a tier of her own above everyone else.

Bottom line: top players consistently overly respect her (all of them), roll away from her for no reason when she lands right in front of them (KEN), over-extend non-true strings and get punished (Zero, Void, etc), inconsistently space when they have a more mobile character (KEN again, Larry), land or attack right on top of her (all of them), continually refuse to stay under her and punish/pressure her lack of landing options (Larry, KEN), let her dash grab them for free (Zero), and continue to not actually know what she can and can't do, then yeah, let's put her in S++ right now.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Serious question: what do you guys consider ban-worthy?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The bosses you fight in fighting games at the end of arcade mode or Unlimited versions of characters (basically final boss arcade forms) in the Blazblu series. I can pull up videos if anyone wants examples.

 

[NairWizard]

Minordeth Yeah, you make some good points. There are definitely players making mistakes against Bayo, hence

"Next S-Tier, I believe that Salem will not win. The talent around him is just too honed and everyone will focus on Bayo counterplay and be ready for his defensive play, and he'll fall somewhere before making top 4. That's my prediction."


I am aware that there is counterplay. What I am saying, however, is that the numbers don't add up, regardless of the counterplay involved.

The fact that half of all strings qualify as "overextensions" against Bayo is precisely the problem. If you extend your string and hit Bayo she outdamages you; if you don't, you do less damage, and she still outdamages you. She gets more reward for hitting someone on average than she risks from taking damage.

Like, seriously, coming from other fighting games, Bayo is clearly not tiers above the other top tiers. Being tiers above requires that character to actually be on the level of a Street Fighter 2 Akuma, like invalidating every other character with minimal effort better.

This is fair for a game where tier gaps are large between tiers. smash 4 isn't that game. The gap between top and high is tiny. High and mid is even tinier. Mid and low... who even knows which characters are in which tier? Bayonetta being tiers above ZSS makes sense in the scheme of smash 4's cast. But this is semantics, of course. I just mean that the gap between Bayonetta and ZSS is bigger than the gap between, say, ZSS and Toon Link by a significant and obvious margin.

As for the "Bayo has a different class of disadvantage" - I know you've seen Nairo flip kick out of some shenanigans and then reverse it around and kill someone who was chasing him. He literally does it all the time on his stream. Both quick attack and Bouncing Fish can also be used to turn the tables, albeit they are much more contextually based than Witch Twist.

Flip Kick being used in this fashion happens but it's hardly consistent, it requires a followup after the Flip itself.

Quick Attack cannot be used to turn the tables at all. The move does like 2% damage and doesn't lead into anything, and you end up in freefall after it's over. You have to land on the stage or reset to the ledge before you can do anything after it.

Bouncing Fish: the move being used like this would matter if Sheik could actually kill you with aerials near the blastzones, but her aerials are not nearly strong enough for that.

And if she whiffs it, she has to use one of her other specials to escape. And then she accumulates at least 30 frames of lag and her options are predictable.

It's like Shaya said, she has an entire freaking stage to go to. 30 frames of lag is actually nothing given the distance that she travels. Her options are far less predictable than the options of someone like ZSS after Flip Kick.



I'm not crying doomsday here, if I thought she was Brawl MK or Ice Climbers and literally shut down spectatorship and competition then I'd advocate a ban. That's not what's going to happen. People are going to continue to play and have success with other characters while Bayonetta is in the game. Heck, she might not even win most supermajors going forward, this game is diverse and pretty well balanced.

But to say that she's not a problem at all, well. That seems entirely disingenuous to me.

 

[HoSmash4]

Serious question: what do you guys consider ban-worthy?

Lylat

 

[Yikarur]

Lylat is so good for the game. Get over it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Serious question: what do you guys consider ban-worthy?

Lylat

This opinion.

Spoiler

For real though, a strategy so over centralizing it becomes the far majority of the meta. I don't see Bayonetta as ban worthy because other characters are still viable and are able to win without it being seen as super unlikely.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So I guess I needed a better question. Allow me to rephrase that:
What do you guys think is needed for a character to be banned?

 

[Bowserboy3]

So I guess I needed a better question. Allow me to rephrase that:
What do you guys think is needed for a character to be banned?

Tbh, that's quite a tough question to answer.

Of course that post is targeted mainly at Bayonetta, so I'll say that I absolutely 100% believe Bayonetta DOES NOT need to be banned.

Yes, Bayonetta as of late has been one of the most common characters in top 16 etc, but even then it's only around 3 or 4 at maximum.

We don't have THIS bullsh*t IN TOP 5 at most tournaments:

(also funny/relevant how this particular image is Salem winning; reminder to all that the player has as much to credit to wins as the character)

The character is darn good, but she ain't taking near enough ALL the top spots.

Meta Knight's ban during that small time at the very least I would say was somewhat warranted, as were pre-patch Bayonetta's scattered global bans. Both these character's tools are/were ABOSLUTELY far and away better than any character in the respective casts.

Right now, Bayonetta still possesses some of the best tools in the game, but that's all they are; the best tools, hence why she's the best in the game. There are ways to deal with them and ways to deal with the character now.

Another thing that makes me think Bayonetta is fine is when you consider how early on the community realised both Meta Knight and pre-patch Bayonetta were the best in the game. From their day 1's, players instantly noticed how good they were and were almost universally considered the best in the game.

If we take post-patch/current Bayonetta, while she's considered the best in most areas, there are still valid opinions and arguments for other characters being best in the game. Plus, she has taken time to develop to being the best; this is important. It shows that while the character is still incredibly good, that she's still not the clear best, unlike Meta Knight, were it was pretty much foolish to argue any other character being better.

Just because the character is the best in the game, it doesn't mean we should ban them, especially when they aren't taking all the top spots in tournaments.

Bayonetta to me is similar to Melee Fox in a sense; has tools and a kit that meshes together than pretty much all of the cast (this point specifically), and is one of the most popular characters in tournament in their respective games. However, they don't win everything.

Do we ban Melee Fox aswell? I think not.

That's my take on Bayonetta/what is ban worthy, I suppose.