Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[PK Gaming]

sometimes I think that people overplay neutral. This is true with Ryu mains for sure. They want to play him reactively and patiently like he were Marth, or Ryu from the original Street Fighter or something. Like what? Ryu has Luigi-level reward with much better kill confirms. Why play reactively and patiently? Just make a read. If you lose neutral you lose neutral who cares. Don't be so scared of committing to an option when a successful commitment gets you the stock.

Perfect theory neutral is overrated. Sometimes you just gotta win the match.

Solid advice from someone with solid sense.

Securing the stock is everything in this game.

 

[Kofu]

sometimes I think that people overplay neutral. This is true with Ryu mains for sure. They want to play him reactively and patiently like he were Marth, or Ryu from the original Street Fighter or something. Like what? Ryu has Luigi-level reward with much better kill confirms. Why play reactively and patiently? Just make a read. If you lose neutral you lose neutral who cares. Don't be so scared of committing to an option when a successful commitment gets you the stock.

Perfect theory neutral is overrated. Sometimes you just gotta win the match.

I've noticed this lately in my play. I'm trying not to be overly aggressive (playing one of the lightest characters in the game will prompt that) but sometimes I get so fixated on waiting for an opening that I feel like just going in will be the better option.

If you wait too much, you get paralyzed and can't respond properly.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

If we're defining tier lists by solo-viability, is like a fringe top 20 character if you ask me. Yeah, killing at 60 sounds pretty broken but does it really matter when there are characters that can keep Ryu from even touching them?

I don't think people realize how limiting a lack of ranged/burst options can be or how it prevents him from just grinding out his tougher matchups like we've seen Fatality do with Bayonetta or ESAM/Ranai with Rosalina. When a Ryu takes on a Sonic, Rosalina, or Diddy who's well versed in the matchup it should look completely hopeless for him because those characters have options in neutral that—when properly utilized—prevent him from playing the game. He kinda has to just bank on avoiding those characters in bracket. Tough to do considering how common they are.

Just like DK, Ryu's volatile nature along with his large player base gives him a strong presence on a regional level. It also makes him one of the characters most likely to cause a few upsets here or there at nationals. But then he'll inevitably run into a Static Manny or fall prey to something as simple as Vinnie's pocket Rosalina. That's why I feel like he struggles to make deep bracket runs at nationals like we've seen as of late from other high tiers like Lucario, Olimar, Falcon, and Pikachu. In fact I'm pretty sure that he's only ever broken into top 8 once at an S/A tier as a solo main (Locus, 7th @ Civil War).

It's weird to me that after two full years of getting stonewalled by the same few characters in bracket and only having one top 8 to his name, so many are still hanging on to the delusion that Ryu's top tier. It almost feels like he gets more credit than any other character for doing anything notable. I guess the community's "muh potential" confirmation bias is to blame as many still confuse Ryu's high skill floor and volatile nature for a high skill ceiling

Opinion, m8.

Plus, Locus has also gotten 7th at DreamHack Austin and Greninja Saga.

 

[Nah]

What you can do in advantage doesn't really matter if you can't even win neutral in the first place to actually make use of it. If you have the most powerful weapon in the world, but can't hit anything with it, what does its power matter?

Conversely, if your advantage state is poor, you're required to win neutral over and over and over again to win the game, which is both potentially draining and gives the opponent more opportunities to kill you, to "get that read" and reverse things.

I don't know why it seems like people still think that only one or the other is important when both are important (really all 3 are important). You're not really a good character if you're only good at one of the 3 states. Though I'm pretty sure Solid Sense does actually think that both/all 3 states matter and it's just that he errs on the side of advantage being a bit more important is all, which is understandable.


as a side note, losing neutral isn't always a "who cares" thing, since, y'know, sometimes that can be your stock right there....especially against characters with early/strong kill confirms and/or if playing one with a ****ty disadvantage

 

[Emblem Lord]

sometimes I think that people overplay neutral. This is true with Ryu mains for sure. They want to play him reactively and patiently like he were Marth, or Ryu from the original Street Fighter or something. Like what? Ryu has Luigi-level reward with much better kill confirms. Why play reactively and patiently? Just make a read. If you lose neutral you lose neutral who cares. Don't be so scared of committing to an option when a successful commitment gets you the stock.

Perfect theory neutral is overrated. Sometimes you just gotta win the match.

Sustainability.

You can make a read. You can win majors here and there on reads.

Reads consistently win EVO? You gonna win majors CONSISTENTLY on PURE reads?

Stop it.

Ryu is awesome. But he is not top ten.

 

[Y2Kay]

I honestly feel that Ryu players get away with murder in tournaments, because people do not respect his deadly confirms.

His shoryuken confirms are vicious, no doubt about it. Nut if use abuse his poor mobility, recovery, and a lack of disjointed hitboxes, you realize he's weaker than you'd think.

Prime example:

Lea was playing the match up almost perfectly. Locus had a difficult time getting around retreating forward airs and shurikens, and made offstage hell with hydro pump. But Lea did NOT respect focus attack and up tilt, and that was all Locus needed to keep himself in the game and eventually win.

If your main has some sort of combination of these four traits I feel like you have enough to beat a Ryu that isnt leagues above you.

• high mobility
• safe, disjointed pokes
• good zoning tools
• good edgeguarding

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What you can do in advantage doesn't really matter if you can't even win neutral in the first place to actually make use of it. If you have the most powerful weapon in the world, but can't hit anything with it, what does its power matter?

Conversely, if your advantage state is poor, you're required to win neutral over and over and over again to win the game, which is both potentially draining and gives the opponent more opportunities to kill you, to "get that read" and reverse things.

I don't know why it seems like people still think that only one or the other is important when both are important (really all 3 are important). You're not really a good character if you're only good at one of the 3 states. Though I'm pretty sure Solid Sense does actually think that both/all 3 states matter and it's just that he errs on the side of advantage being a bit more important is all, which is understandable.


as a side note, losing neutral isn't always a "who cares" thing, since, y'know, sometimes that can be your stock right there....especially against characters with early/strong kill confirms and/or if playing one with a ****ty disadvantage

Are you implying that Ryu's a bad character? By that logic, 40 or more characters are complete garbage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also why do people talk about perfect neutral? You need to be perfect in neutral to know that if Ryu hits your shield with a fair you SHOULD NOT roll away from him? It's perfect play to not give up easy punishes? It's perfect play to not run into utilts all day like your name is Larry Lurr? It's perfect play to jab that useless hadouken of his?

Staaaaaahp

Cut it the **** out guys.

And one more thing....think about where Ryus confirms come from right now in the meta. They do not come from his burst options. They do not come from grabs. They come from him just taking a MASSIVE risk and attempting to get close OR his opponent gave him an opportunity.

Argue with me about this. Please tell me where else he gets confirms?

 

[Rizen]

I think people are downplaying too much.
His disadvantage isn't top tier but it's not bad. He has focus attack to tank a hit and reverse momentum. Offstage his recovery is better than average with a frame 1-6 intangible (true) upB and a side movement burst.

While he has trouble approaching, the bad walk and worst aerial acceleration in the game suck, you have to remember stages are finite. At several points in a game you will be confronted by Ryu even if you're Sheik. And when that happens he has a frame 3 FAF 15 Utilt that confirms into a move that kills you at 90%. That's better than Diddy's Dtilt (frame 4 FAF 19). A FAF 15 move is stupidly safe. And it's not like Ryu only has Utilt as a good move. He has quick and heavy variations of tilts, and decent reach. He doesn't have to Utilt when his other moves, including grab are fine although lacking by comparison. He is Mr.Footsies; it's not like his neutral is that bad.

In advantage he has the best stock closing in the game except . DK's grab is frame 8,10 and 11 FAF 31, 39, 37 for standing, dash and pivot respectively. Over twice as long as Ryu's Utilt. DK has other things that help him out like heavy weight with above average mobility of course.

Ryu has issues that keep him from being top 10 but he's just outside of that range.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm, I typically stay out of convos like this (heck I have for several pages) but I'm curious (and worried) about something. Do you think the meta has advanced so much that character diversity will decrease? I mean the last few tourneys have pretty much been a lot of the same when it comes to finals. You don't see the odd mid-tier secondary on a large entry tourney list usually....

 

[williamsga555]

Yes, character diversity is decreasing. It's still among the most varied of any smash game, however, and I believe it will remain among the most varied for quite some time yet. Honestly I'm a bit surprised it's taken as long as it has to whittle down to who the most relevant are (which still isn't solidified yet). I wouldn't be worried about it unless you just really can't stand any of who the perceived top tiers are right now.

 

[Nah]

Are you implying that Ryu's a bad character? By that logic, 40 or more characters are complete garbage.

My post was a general statement rather than specifically about Ryu.

"Not good" doesn't always mean "bad/trash". You can be not good, but also not bad.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Mekos and Highdumpster, the only 2 Lucas mains I recognize, are doing pretty well in bracket at Dreamhack Atlanta. Mekos made it out of pools in losers and Highdumpster is a few matches away from doing the same in losers.

Let's go!

Edit: Mekos just 2-0 Scatt, I am liking this losers run. As for Highdumpster, he was one game away from making it out of pools and getting top 64.

As for Mekos losing to Vinnie, ya'll can say that Lucas loses hard to Rosalina but keep in mind that that is only one Lucas player that is getting attention on stream and I think Mekos needs to really work on that matchup because in one of his previous videos from his youtube channel he strongly believed that Lucas loses to Rosalina but I'd say that is something he has to work on with his playstyle of Lucas since other Lucas mains (myself included) disagree. The discord and Mekos in my opinion hold very opposite opinions in regards to each other.

 

[NairWizard]

Sustainability.

You can make a read. You can win majors here and there on reads.

Reads consistently win EVO? You gonna win majors CONSISTENTLY on PURE reads?

Stop it.

Ryu is awesome. But he is not top ten.

Maybe if people stopped trying to play Ryu like a top 5 character capable of winning majors consistently (something that only one player playing one specific character does, by the way, with less than a handful of players and characters showing the capacity to achieve the same), then they'd play him like the top 15 character that he should be.

You're gimping yourself if you don't take risks as Ryu; his design is quite evidently founded on taking risks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sure.

Just as long as we are clear that a design based on risk is fundamentally flawed. It always has been.

 

[blackghost]

Can we coin dying from a bad monkey flip as the zero special?
But in all seriousness I'm glad not to see knee jerk reactions about bowser today. It's refreshing.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Can we coin dying from a bad monkey flip as the zero special?
But in all seriousness I'm glad not to see knee jerk reactions about bowser today. It's refreshing.

Well it's also becuase Nario is just an amazing player too that he beat ZeRo with Bowser as well. Also it wasn't so much the has monkey flips . ZeRo has unfortunate SD's when trying to recover in both his sets with Samsora and ZeRo. Considering how both of them came down to last hit, last stock those alao cost him greatly

But yea recently the players who jave won sets of ZeRo have been able to punish the Monkey Flips on a consistent basis

 

[The-Technique]

Can we coin dying from a bad monkey flip as the zero special?
But in all seriousness I'm glad not to see knee jerk reactions about bowser today. It's refreshing.

To be fair, Diddy's air mobility is horrendous without Monkey Flip. It's more of a weakness of the character than a bad habit of Zero's, honestly.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Yeah character diversity is slowly going down for sure. The game isn't as balanced as once thought, the gap between the tiers is growing as is normal for a healthy meta over time. Lower tier characters are still decent compared to lower tier characters in other smash games, but two stock and rage definitely aid in that. I also can agree with the notation that Bayo, Diddy, Shiek and maybe Cloud/Rosa are a tier above the rest of the top tiers in this game and this should be reflected on tier lists. Those four have separated themselves from the rest.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Is it even possible for 3 stock to ever become mainstream in the USA? I'm definitely in favor of it, but I don't know if a rule change that big could come into play this late into the meta.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Calling it: Salem will be top 5 on the next PGR.

 

[TDK]

DreamHack Atlanta (350 Entrants) (Georgia)

1st: Salem
2nd: VoiD
3rd: Tweek
4th: Nairo
5th: ANTi
5th: Larry Lurr
7th: Dabuz
7th: Mr. R
9th: Vinnie
9th: Samsora
9th: ZeRo
9th: ESAM
13th: Mr. E
13th: Ally
13th: Captain Zack
13th: Peabnut

 

[NotLiquid]

So after that Dreamhack runback which is almost note-for-note exactly like last week at EVO, I'm kind of curious about who would be the best player if we're strictly talking peak momentum.

Salem is definitely proving himself as one of the best players, if not the best in that regard. I'd say Larry, Nairo and (obviously) ZeRo are in those ranks as well. Larry in particular strikes me as someone who could potentially be even better than ZeRo if he had the consistency to back it up.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Calling it: Salem will be top 5 on the next PGR.

Wow, way to go out on a limb there...

 

[NairWizard]

lol some people were saying that Bayonetta can't approach

*watches Salem dance around and shield pressure a top-2 player of a character with top OOS options with impunity*


yeah Bayonetta can't approach, surely her neutral sucks!

 

[Iron Kraken]

So after that Dreamhack runback which is almost note-for-note exactly like last week at EVO, I'm kind of curious about who would be the best player if we're strictly talking peak momentum.

Salem is definitely proving himself as one of the best players, if not the best in that regard. I'd say Larry, Nairo and (obviously) ZeRo are in those ranks as well.

I think it would be nuts to say Salem is better than ZeRo after just two tournaments that he won in which ZeRo finished 2nd and 9th... but he's certainly closing the gap.

It might be fair though to say that Salem is now the second best player, considering Leo's subpar placements this month combined. It's certainly close though.

If I had to rank the top 10 right now...

1. ZeRo
2. Salem
3. MkLeo
4-9. Nairo
4-9. Dabuz
4-9. Larry Lurr
4-9. Tweek
4-9. KEN
4-9. Ally
10-11. Mr. R / Void

Just missed: Komorikiri, Kirihara

 

[jet56]

The big thing i took away from the set was How versatile Bayo's nair is. It can be used offensively and defensively, be used to approach, cross up shields, bait, wall out, and even get chip damage safely with the bullets. Not to mention how safe the move is, both in space and on shield (10 frames of landing lag, -5 on shield with the soft hit). The risk reward of the move is insane, and one of the biggest reasons void couldn't close the set against salem, both S1 and S2. The best counterplay that i can think of is safe needles to punish nair when he finally lands (which void was doing), or some kind of projectile that beats the move (banana from diddy kong is probably the best one i can think of.)

You want to talk about what invalidates other characters and polarizes MU's for bayo just ask yourself:

Does this character have a way to safely and consistently deal with my nair?

if the answer is no, bayo wins the mu most likely.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think it would be nuts to say Salem is better than ZeRo after just two tournaments that he won in which ZeRo finished 2nd and 9th... but he's certainly closing the gap.

It might be fair though to say that Salem is now the second best player, considering Leo's subpar placements this months. It's certainly close though.

If I had to rank the top 10 right now...

1. ZeRo
2. Salem
3. MkLeo
4-9. Nairo
4-9. Dabuz
4-9. Larry Lurr
4-9. Tweek
4-9. KEN (best player in Japan and has only been losing to 1st/2nd place at U.S. majors)
4-9. Ally
10-11. Mr. R / Void

Just missed: Komorikiri, Kirihara

Nah I don't think Salem is the best player at all, I don't even think he's the second best overall yet (he needs to overcome Dabuz for that who is his demon, and in both Dreamhack and EVO he got lucky avoiding him in Top 8). I'm strictly speaking about players who have explosive momentum. It's why I mention Larry, in both this tournament and EVO he showed incredible fortitude in several sets, notably exploding out of the gate against Nairo, but several of his losses have been pretty severe reversals after losing his momentum into the set and that seems to be a bit of a trend.

It's a tough metric to judge from but it feels like if someone like Larry had the consistency of ZeRo, he'd probably turn Fox into one of the most feared characters in the game.

 

[Flux0r]

Also no one clapped for Salem lol

— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) July 23, 2017

This is actually sad.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Nah I don't think Salem is the best player at all, I don't even think he's the second best overall yet (he needs to overcome Dabuz for that who is his demon, and in both Dreamhack and EVO he got lucky avoiding him in Top 8). I'm strictly speaking about players who have explosive momentum. It's why I mention Larry, in both this tournament and EVO he showed incredible fortitude in several sets, notably exploding out of the gate against Nairo, but several of his losses have been pretty severe reversals after losing his momentum into the set and that seems to be a bit of a trend.

It's a tough metric to judge from but it feels like if someone like Larry had the consistency of ZeRo, he'd probably turn Fox into one of the most feared characters in the game.

Considering the progress Salem has made, I would say the next Dabuz vs Salem matchup should be pretty much even money. As I've said from the very beginning, I truly believe Bayo wins the match up, Dabuz just kept getting great results against Bayos for whatever reason, even while all the other Rosas like Kirihara kept losing to them. But the thing is, I don't think Dabuz has played a top Bayo since Captain Zack at Civil War, and it's been even longer than that since he's played Salem. So our information on Dabuz vs top Bayos is kind of outdated.

I'm as skeptical as anyone about putting too much stock in a single tournament, but when a person wins back-to-back S-tier events, that's another matter. I have no qualms with calling Salem the second best player right now.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yeah character diversity is slowly going down for sure. The game isn't as balanced as once thought, the gap between the tiers is growing as is normal for a healthy meta over time. Lower tier characters are still decent compared to lower tier characters in other smash games, but two stock and rage definitely aid in that. I also can agree with the notation that Bayo, Diddy, Shiek and maybe Cloud/Rosa are a tier above the rest of the top tiers in this game and this should be reflected on tier lists. Those four have separated themselves from the rest.

At this point, which characters would you say are unviable?

 

[|RK|]

Wait. Mega Man, Peach, Bowser, DK, Pikachu, and Olimar with appearances in the top 16 and this game is less balanced than we thought? Who was even there - skill-wise - that could have represented a perceived "weaker" character in top 16?

Maybe Fatality?

You'd think some top player of a "weaker character" got blown up this tournament.

Like, the reps aren't there, so obviously the stronger players are going to win. If anything, we're seeing the skill ceiling hasn't been reached yet - which is a positive.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Calling it: Salem will be top 5 on the next PGR.

If v4 resets all points from v3, then he's #1 right now, Void or Larry are #2, and there are other nasty surprises like Leo nowhere to be seen.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Wow, way to go out on a limb there...

Some other predictions: ZeRo will be #1, MkLeo will be top 5, Nairo will be top 5. Uncertain who the 5th top 5 player will be though. Larry Lurr? Ally? Mr. R? VoiD? Dabuz? Someone else?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Also no one clapped for Salem lol

— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) July 23, 2017

This is actually sad.

Salem himself stated he does not care at all if he gets hate for his cjoice of main or his style of play. So I dont think Salem is too broken up about it

 

[|RK|]

If v4 resets all points from v3, then he's #1 right now, Void or Larry are #2, and there are other nasty surprises like Leo nowhere to be seen.

Nah, ZeRo is #2 rn. Reminder that EVO was "S+." Actually, there's a decent guideline in "Cloudhead Rankings." It's a stats-based ranking system updated after every big tournament. I'll post sometime later - guy who made it needs to update. But post-EVO, ZeRo was still #1, Salem #2, and Leo... 125 or something.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Nah, ZeRo is #2 rn. Reminder that EVO was "S+." Actually, there's a decent guideline in "Cloudhead Rankings." It's a stats-based ranking system updated after every big tournament. I'll post sometime later - guy who made it needs to update. But post-EVO, ZeRo was still #1, Salem #2, and Leo... 125 or something.

S+? What kind of criteria is compulsory to deserve that tier ranking?

 

[my_T]

smh how have the devs not nerfed Bayo's nair? Such an absurd move. Disjointed, everlasting acting frames, 10 frames of landing, and it covers both front and back very well.

 

[Goombo]

smh how have the devs not nerfed Bayo's nair? Such an absurd move. Disjointed, everlasting acting frames, 10 frames of landing, and it covers both front and back very well.

Exactly, I especially don't get what "everlasting" aerial hitboxes have lost in a Smash game.
If it was on a character with Ryu-like air acceleration I could somewhat understand it but this way it's just stupid.

 

[Kofu]

lol some people were saying that Bayonetta can't approach

*watches Salem dance around and shield pressure a top-2 player of a character with top OOS options with impunity*


yeah Bayonetta can't approach, surely her neutral sucks!

You know, as I was making this post, especially the part about her approaching, I kept thinking "hmm, her approaches and pokes seem better than I want to make them out to be." I didn't want to change course so I kept what I wrote but had doubts in the back of my mind.

Guess I had good reason to. Once she gets close enough (a rather generous space given her hitboxes) her pressure game becomes terrifying. I think I mainly had her "approaches" with Heel Slide in mind when I had her "she's bad at approching" section in mind.

smh how have the devs not nerfed Bayo's nair? Such an absurd move. Disjointed, everlasting acting frames, 10 frames of landing, and it covers both front and back very well.