Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[HoSmash4]

BTW not to rain on Bayos parade but take notice of how many times Void grabbed Salem on the ground in between Bayos nair blind spots

I do think Sheik legit has no answer like other non swordies/low range chars to Bayo platform camp on SV/Lylat (ban triplats)

 

[ShadowGuy1]

S+? What kind of criteria is compulsory to deserve that tier ranking?

S+ is the ranking for former normaler S majors (Civil War, EVO, SSC; stuff that had a very high score) that is now being visually displayed. Top 64 get the points (same as S) just that the points are greater. It was given this distinction when Dreamhack became an S tier tournament. Even if they had not added S+, EVO would still grant more points overall, it is just a more visual change that is easier to understand

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Wait. Mega Man, Peach, Bowser, DK, Pikachu, and Olimar with appearances in the top 16 and this game is less balanced than we thought? Who was even there - skill-wise - that could have represented a perceived "weaker" character in top 16?

Maybe Fatality?

You'd think some top player of a "weaker character" got blown up this tournament.

Like, the reps aren't there, so obviously the stronger players are going to win. If anything, we're seeing the skill ceiling hasn't been reached yet - which is a positive.

True, but compared to the upper echelon the gap is getting bigger in terms of quantity of results. Viability is at a all time high so you'll still see plenty of characters tiered in the thirties do fine but over time that number will shrink and I think it's starting to do so. My post was more aimed at the "Top Tier" which generally consists of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud, Mario, Sonic, Rosa, Fox, Mewtwo, ZSS, Ryu/Marthcina. I think it should be more well spread that Bayo, Diddy, Shiek and either Cloud/Rosa should be identified as being above the rest of the cast and the other top tier characters they've been grouped with for most of 1.1.6(7) lifespan

 

[Ziodyne 21]

True, but compared to the upper echelon the gap is getting bigger in terms of quantity of results. Viability is at a all time high so you'll still see plenty of characters tiered in the thirties do fine but over time that number will shrink and I think it's starting to do so. My post was more aimed at the "Top Tier" which generally consists of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud, Mario, Sonic, Rosa, Fox, Mewtwo, ZSS, Ryu/Marthcina. I think it should be more well spread that Bayo, Diddy, Shiek and either Cloud/Rosa should be identified as being above the rest of the cast and the other top tier characters they've been grouped with for most of 1.1.6(7) lifespan

Diddy, Bayo, Sheik and Cloud right now definetly seem like the best of the best in both theory and results . I tentatively would say Rosa rounds out the top 5 as far as overall success this year. But Larry has also been making a strong argument for Fox being just under the big bad 4 as well with how fighting his play has been and also reaching top 8 in the last 3 S-tiet tournaments.

 

[|RK|]

S+? What kind of criteria is compulsory to deserve that tier ranking?

Long story short, the letter classifications are almost entirely irrelevant. PGR is calculated by point value. Since people were complaining that Dreamhack was an S-tiers (right after EVO), PGR added "S+" which represents the extremely high point value, but doesn't actually mean anything.

True, but compared to the upper echelon the gap is getting bigger in terms of quantity of results. Viability is at a all time high so you'll still see plenty of characters tiered in the thirties do fine but over time that number will shrink and I think it's starting to do so. My post was more aimed at the "Top Tier" which generally consists of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud, Mario, Sonic, Rosa, Fox, Mewtwo, ZSS, Ryu/Marthcina. I think it should be more well spread that Bayo, Diddy, Shiek and either Cloud/Rosa should be identified as being above the rest of the cast and the other top tier characters they've been grouped with for most of 1.1.6(7) lifespan

I can see that, and I agree we should be more focused on top 5 than top ten now... But at the same time, I don't think the other characters have become less capable in the meta... just need stronger rep.

Not ZSS though - ZSS has godlike rep in Nairo... She's just... Idk. I don't see where her meta goes from here. Even the top 5 could stand to get stronger. ZSS though? But maybe I'm not up to date on her latest improvements. But from what I understand, she kinda loses to... all of the top 4.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Is it even possible for 3 stock to ever become mainstream in the USA? I'm definitely in favor of it, but I don't know if a rule change that big could come into play this late into the meta.

I would like 3 stocks to become a thing but I think too many players bandwagon others opinions on the matter and some may make up excuses that have yet to happen, like all matches will be timeouts in 3 stock, Sonic matches will get more boring to watch due to timeouts and twitch chat and maybe TO's will complain to no end, and tournies will not be able to end on schedule.

Besides Europe, the only tourney in the US that I am aware of that got attention and was promoted for being 3 stock was Texas Gaming Show 6, which I attended. I know Esam, Hyuga, and a few other notable players attended but the tourney in everyone else's eyes may have been seen as a disaster. This could be due to the multiple power outages and the video Esam made telling his experience about the tourney along with others opinions spreading online which could have really made 3 stock seem like a horrible, along with Zero not showing up.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik autoloses to Bayo on BF but does a bit better on Dreamland. Every other stage is fine. Lylat is a little annoying, FD sucks for Bayo because she can't land, SV is alright, and Town is alright unless the Bayo plat camps with the lead.
I've never seen a Sheik main get robbed from a big win like Salem did VoiD on G3 of Set 1. It was so silly and visibly frustrating that I started laughing.

 

[Fenny]

Bat Within is so broken on Sheik cuz most of her follow ups aren't utterly guaranteed so they get frame janked

BW was doing so much work for Salem this tourney that I felt lowkey sorry for his opponents rofl

 

[blackghost]

Are people really saying void set proves bayo has a good neuttral and can approach? Void is well documented as an aggro combo based shiek. He doesn't throw needles and he doesn't run away. He swing first and he swings often. If a shiek truly commits to keeping bayo away like we have seen Dabuz do in the past she is limited on options.
People have commented about void's shiek not using needles enough for years now. Salem thrives against any player that doesn't switch between aggression and zoning.

Watching how people treat Salem is getting old and it will have repercussions on players wanting to join the scene or even remain active within it. It's toxic and hurts the community.

having an active combo character like bayo do well at evo was actually great for the game. Smash 4 was mentioned as having great finals from large YouTube and fgc personalities and that matters. Evo is the one time a year when people that don't watch your game normally do.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sheik autoloses to Bayo on BF but does a bit better on Dreamland. Every other stage is fine. Lylat is a little annoying, FD sucks for Bayo because she can't land, SV is alright, and Town is alright unless the Bayo plat camps with the lead.
I've never seen a Sheik main get robbed from a big win like Salem did VoiD on G3 of Set 1. It was so silly and visibly frustrating that I started laughing.

I called the utter heartbreak of Sheik mains everywhere.

The was the closet post-patch Sheik was to finally winning a Major . It was literally within Sheiks grasp.. Until Bayo snatched it away from Sheik at the last nanosecond . kicked her down and then grinded her boot on her backgleefully saying"almost" Sorry ninja girl, but I liked my first Major so much last week, I just had to have another!!

 

[Illusion.]

Smash Academia (84 entrants: El Paso, Texas)

1st. Fahrenheit
2nd. LS | RedPanda
3rd. Tetsuyalol
4th. Mario Pedraza
5th. _Cano_
5th. Khade
7th. Diago
7th. SoulKir

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pft.

I do not like sorry for Sheik or her mains.

I'm sure most of the community feels the same.

 

[Rizen]

As annoying as Bayo is to fight, you can't fault Salem. He plays to win, as he should.

BF's a polarizing stage. As a Link player I love it. It really favors disjoint over mobility and Link's bombs allow him to land and platform camp like no other character. Toon Link can't plant bombs like Link.

These games are coming too fast, lol. I'm still watching the Arms saga.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Bat Within is so broken on Sheik cuz most of her follow ups aren't utterly guaranteed so they get frame janked

BW was doing so much work for Salem this tourney that I felt lowkey sorry for his opponents rofl

Aftet those sets I can see why so many commentators are now calling it "BS within"

 

[Yikarur]

Bat's Within are frame 1-4.
What is the problem with that?
Most of those bat's within would've been dodged normally with Characters like Mewtwo for example so why is it bad if Bayo does it lmao

 

[Nu~]

Bat's Within are frame 1-4.
What is the problem with that?
Most of those bat's within would've been dodged normally with Characters like Mewtwo for example so why is it bad if Bayo does it lmao

You sayin there's nothing wrong with having a frame 1 escape option?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Bats Within sucks against Sheik unless you're near death % lol.
The only move it screws over is Bouncing Fish. The rest end up making you either reset to neutral or get hit more.

Edit: When I fight Bayo and try to kill I treat Bats Within into Witch Twist the same way I do Luma's Uair. If it's fraudulent, don't go for it or you'll be *rightfully* punished and killed for trying.

 

[Rizen]

Bat's Within are frame 1-4.
What is the problem with that?
Most of those bat's within would've been dodged normally with Characters like Mewtwo for example so why is it bad if Bayo does it lmao

Mewtwo has the best airdodge in the game at frame 2 and it drifts so you can't use it as a comparison. What bat within has over every other airdodge is it's frame 1 and it moves her. What this means is she can escape frame traps that outlast every other airdodge like Link's Dthrow>Uair. The fastest option out of hitstun is to dodge. Link's Uair usually hits before airdodges can come out or has a longer duration and hits their endlag. Bat within escapes it. It effectively gives her the best escape dodge aside from Mewtwo's for combos that aren't true.

Her dodge has a longer FAF than any other at 37 frames. Most end on frames 31-35 (-Mewtwo's at 29). Let's be real: if you read any airdodge you get your choice of punishment. Bayo's slightly longer duration means nothing.

 

[NairWizard]

Are people really saying void set proves bayo has a good neuttral and can approach? Void is well documented as an aggro combo based shiek. He doesn't throw needles and he doesn't run away. He swing first and he swings often. If a shiek truly commits to keeping bayo away like we have seen Dabuz do in the past she is limited on options.
People have commented about void's shiek not using needles enough for years now. Salem thrives against any player that doesn't switch between aggression and zoning.

I'm sorry, but this is patently ridiculous. Did you even watch the set? Void was playing extremely defensively.


Salem was literally whiffing aerials or landing b-airs on shield and then bursting away to the opposite smashville ledge or platform to avoid any kind of damage, and he didn't even care about the loss of stage control because he could just burst back just as easily off the ledge to the center with specials and f-air. Whenever Void tried to punish this pattern he got either Witch Twisted or just couldn't reach Salem fast enough and had to play neutral again. When a character can basically throw out moves and then avoid repercussion for it, then yeah, I would say that's a pretty damn good neutral, even ignoring Bayo's own amazing OOS.

Bayonetta probably has one of the best neutral games in the entire game and if you don't think so then I might recommend that you actually think about what "good neutral" means in the context of smash, because from where I'm standing it's easily top 5; we have evidence of her competing *in neutral* against Sheik and Diddy at the very highest level, and it's not just Salem, it's also his character. No other character is capable of doing the kinds of things Salem is doing in neutral against other players. Salem's neutral makes characters like Mario and Yoshi look like sad, poor jokes.

She may not be banworthy but if anyone ever says that her neutral isn't top-class again I'm going to have a brain aneurysm.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think the whole "Bayo has a bad neutral " belief comes from that they looked at Bayo's neutral game in a vacuum state. Comparing it only to characters with god-loke neutrals Diddy and Sheik

Yes, her neutral overall is not as good as Diddy or Sheik, but its seema easy to forget they are just 2 characters in a cast of over freaking 50 here.
You can say hust about every low, mid and even some high/top tiers in this game have a weaker neutral than Sheik or Diddy and can also be called "bad" by comparison .
But most of these characters would kill to have the neutral options Bayo has

Salem has just been the first Bayo main to fully optimize her neutral game and is beating top Diddy and Sheik players becuase of it.

 

[Ilikebugs]

Unpopular Opinion: Bayo is the best in the game atm but not broken(though she has strong tools).

 

[ARISTOS]

Unpopular Opinion: Bayo is the best in the game atm but not broken(though she has strong tools).

This is not unpopular lol

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pft.

I do not like sorry for Sheik or her mains.

I'm sure most of the community feels the same.

I feel sorry for VoiD in particular, because he was so close to finish that game 3 set 1. Must be frustrating to be so close to victory and not reach it. I don't feel sorry for Sheik (she's easily top 4) or Sheik mains (they're maining a top 4 character who gets great results and is played by serveral good players, including two potentially top 10 players).

 

[my_T]

Still skeptical of Bayo having a top tier neutral. If you look at Salems sets you'll see that he doesn't actually approach very often and instead waits for the opponent to approach him most of the time. I don't think you can have a top tier neutral without having good approach options. Her neutral ain't bad though.

If Void would have needle camped more what could Bayo do against this strategy without taking too big of a risk? I can't remember what tournament it was where Void beat Salem but I remember Void having very strong needle play and being pretty dominant in the set as a result.

Also, Salem dancing around Voids shield was mostly a result of Void trying to approach as opposed to Salem approaching Void.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Bayo can dAbK bad needles if they aren't Needle Storm pretty reliably but good needle play is extremely tough to deal with. That's why Lylat is often such a strong stage for her. The hyperdefensive Bayonetta style gets a huge buff against Sheik there.
I wouldn't be surprised if the matchup ended up devolving into hard camping overtime. Between Bayo nair/dtilt bullets, Witch Twist OoS, and Witch Time vs Sheik's fair, needles and dashgrab reward it's pretty close to impossible to make comebacks from either side.

 

[ARGHETH]

Still skeptical of Bayo having a top tier neutral. If you look at Salems sets you'll see that he doesn't actually approach very often and instead waits for the opponent to approach him most of the time. I don't think you can have a top tier neutral without having good approach options. Her neutral ain't bad though.

If Void would have needle camped more what could Bayo do against this strategy without taking too big of a risk? I can't remember what tournament it was where Void beat Salem but I remember Void having very strong needle play and being pretty dominant in the set as a result.

Also, Salem dancing around Voids shield was mostly a result of Void trying to approach as opposed to Salem approaching Void.

That's probably KTAR XVIII, on June 2016. Not only was it a year ago, it was three weeks after Bayo's last nerf, so it's fair to say things have changed.
I can't find the video, unfortunately, and I'm pretty sure they haven't played otherwise ever until now.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Still skeptical of Bayo having a top tier neutral. If you look at Salems sets you'll see that he doesn't actually approach very often and instead waits for the opponent to approach him most of the time. I don't think you can have a top tier neutral without having good approach options. Her neutral ain't bad though.

If Void would have needle camped more what could Bayo do against this strategy without taking too big of a risk? I can't remember what tournament it was where Void beat Salem but I remember Void having very strong needle play and being pretty dominant in the set as a result.

Also, Salem dancing around Voids shield was mostly a result of Void trying to approach as opposed to Salem approaching Void.

Salem is really good, and while I won't say that bayo's neutral is bad (any character who can grab can win neutral), you're right to be skeptical at "top tier" neutral.

Characters with a better neutral than bayo (at least IMO):
Mario
Possibly Luigi
Rosa
Diddy
Sheik
Tink
Samus
Possibly ZSS
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena (I'll fite you on this, but Palutena has other problems)
Possibly MK
Fox
Pikachu
Possibly Falcon (mobility and mixups and whatnot)
Possibly Villager
Olimar
Megaman
Mewtwo
Lucas
Cloud
Maybe more, even

She has some nice camping tools, and at the very least some mixups, although relatively slow and innefectual (gets nothing out of a grab without being right at the ledge at kill% without the mobility or killpower of Fox to make up for it). Slow startup frame data, a lack of solid grounded options, and poor mobility outside of burst make her approach game weak and her defensive game mediocre to good. She's at her strongest when she's not approaching, and thanks to her other fantastic qualities is still the best character, but by no means is winning the neutral easy, especially when you have to contend with other top tiers.
(Great, now I contributed, I'm sure this was a fantastic idea)

 

[Lord Dio]

Nah, ZeRo is #2 rn. Reminder that EVO was "S+." Actually, there's a decent guideline in "Cloudhead Rankings." It's a stats-based ranking system updated after every big tournament. I'll post sometime later - guy who made it needs to update. But post-EVO, ZeRo was still #1, Salem #2, and Leo... 125 or something.

There it is. was looking for this post.
Cloudhead has been updated for DHA.
Salem si still first, ZeRo second, Dabuz third......honestly, looking at this in comparison to the PGR, the PGR is in shambles. Leo's 66th, Fatality's 39th, ESAM is tenth, followed by Manny....it's an absolute mess if you ask me.

This is shaping up to be.......quite the season.

 

[TDK]

Out of the 3 A-S tier events so far, Leo's either not been there or performed very poorly. Not surprised he's not doing so well.

Characters with a better neutral than bayo (at least IMO):

Possibly ZSS

Possibly MK

Um, what? ZSS is a huge stretch at best, but one of MK's main flaws is that he pretty much doesn't have a neutral.

BF's a polarizing stage. As a Link player I love it. It really favors disjoint over mobility and Link's bombs allow him to land and platform camp like no other character. Toon Link can't plant bombs like Link.

I actually really hate BF/DL as both characters. Although that's mostly because all of my best bracket runs have been ended by BF/DL jank.

 

[blackghost]

I'm sorry, but this is patently ridiculous. Did you even watch the set? Void was playing extremely defensively.


Salem was literally whiffing aerials or landing b-airs on shield and then bursting away to the opposite smashville ledge or platform to avoid any kind of damage, and he didn't even care about the loss of stage control because he could just burst back just as easily off the ledge to the center with specials and f-air. Whenever Void tried to punish this pattern he got either Witch Twisted or just couldn't reach Salem fast enough and had to play neutral again. When a character can basically throw out moves and then avoid repercussion for it, then yeah, I would say that's a pretty damn good neutral, even ignoring Bayo's own amazing OOS.

Bayonetta probably has one of the best neutral games in the entire game and if you don't think so then I might recommend that you actually think about what "good neutral" means in the context of smash, because from where I'm standing it's easily top 5; we have evidence of her competing *in neutral* against Sheik and Diddy at the very highest level, and it's not just Salem, it's also his character. No other character is capable of doing the kinds of things Salem is doing in neutral against other players. Salem's neutral makes characters like Mario and Yoshi look like sad, poor jokes.

She may not be banworthy but if anyone ever says that her neutral isn't top-class again I'm going to have a brain aneurysm.

My apologies for the brain aneurysm.
Saying bayo has neutral control tools is simply ridiculous. What tool is she going to use to control neutral? Her projectile shoots up ward, her speed is average, she has no ledge cancels or b reversals for movment, her dash gran is actual garbage, her burst options are slow heel slide is frame 15, and her fastest normal is frame 7.

I'm very confused how people are acting like bayo dominated when it was a last hit situation in set 1. In set 1 when void was up to 146 to 82 why is he still being aggressive? Why approach? Throw needles. Camp. He died because he landed on stage with an up air. That has nothing to do with bayo being a strong character that's a mistake every character would have killed him for.

set 1 at 5:25 in the YouTube video void is up a stock and at 76 percent and he APPROACHES. At 5:53 he over extends gets witch timed and dies.

The only move bayo can throw out is bair. Nair isn't universally safe and special use anything more than one special has more than 20 frames of recovery.

Lastly I can't help but think that. Not having nairo 3 0 of Zack on stream just pushes people to keep saying it's bayo. No it's Salem. Nairo obliterated the second best bayo and can't beat Salem. This set with good was incredibly close not evidence that bayo suddenly has an amazing neutral if anything it proves Salem sinking of maximizing her tools and minimizing her weaknesses.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Out of the 3 A-S tier events so far, Leo's either not been there or performed very poorly. Not surprised he's not doing so well.



Um, what? ZSS is a huge stretch at best, but one of MK's main flaws is that he pretty much doesn't have a neutral.

I actually really hate BF/DL as both characters. Although that's mostly because all of my best bracket runs have been ended by BF/DL jank.

Yeah I wasn't too sure about those ones, that's why I put possible next to them. Sorry for possibly misleading.

To stay on topic, it feels like people would rather pick up bayo than learn how to fight her, which is funny because she's actually kind of hard, who'da thunk. In the simplest terms, I think her biggest weaknesses are unreactable anti airs and grabs. That way, it's as much a 50/50 to her as to you when it comes to hitboxes and you get guaranteed confirms from any punish situation.

 

[TDK]

These are probably going to be relevant for a while:

and these are hard but still doable (might need stage pick)
Mario/Peach/MK/Ryu/Mewtwo/Pika

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

I would also personally include and maybe on this list, too.

 

[Flamegeyser]

These are probably going to be relevant for a while:

IMO these chars can beat Bayo
Diddy/Lucario
Sheik/Cloud/Marth/Rosa
Fox/ZSS/Sonic

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

and these are hard but still doable (might need stage pick)
Mario/Peach/MK/Ryu/Mewtwo/Pika

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

I would also personally include and maybe on this list, too.

I'm curious as to why he says Marth. The rest I understand to some extent, although I disagree, but Marth has a somewhat poor DA state and is forced to approach, not to mention his recovery is in fact exploitable.

 

[Minordeth]

These are probably going to be relevant for a while:

and these are hard but still doable (might need stage pick)
Mario/Peach/MK/Ryu/Mewtwo/Pika

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

I would also personally include and maybe on this list, too.

Watching GFs, I was basically going through a mental list like this. I know Salem thinks Sonic is basically free, but in almost every game he played with KEN, KEN was almost always up in the beginning either in percent or stocks and proceeded to flail in mid to end game. I still think even with Sonic's smoke and mirrors neutral, he can hold onto a lead against Bayo better than vice versa.

Also, low key I agree with your additions.

 

[ARISTOS]

Characters with a better neutral than bayo (at least IMO):

Mario

Possibly Luigi

Possibly ZSS

Pit/Dark Pit

Palutena (I'll fite you on this, but Palutena has other problems)

Possibly MK

Please explain yourself

 

[Skeeter Mania]

These are probably going to be relevant for a while:

and these are hard but still doable (might need stage pick)
Mario/Peach/MK/Ryu/Mewtwo/Pika

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

I would also personally include and maybe on this list, too.

Any reason for not including Luigi?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Watching GFs, I was basically going through a mental list like this. I know Salem thinks Sonic is basically free, but in almost every game he played with KEN, KEN was almost always up in the beginning either in percent or stocks and proceeded to flail in mid to end game. I still think even with Sonic's smoke and mirrors neutral, he can hold onto a lead against Bayo better than vice versa.

Bayo has shown to be able to get the lead and able to win neutral more often. Bayo can afford to make more mistakes in the MU than Sonic can
More the most part. Sonics have been losing to Bayo's the past few competitions . The MU is even at best for Sonic

honestly I can't help but think that. It having nairo 3 0 of Zack on stream just pushes people to keep saying it's bayo. No it's Salem. Nairo obliterated the second best bayo and can't beat Salem. Thus set with good was incredibly close not evidence that bayo suddenly has an amazing neutral if anything it proves Salem sinking of maximizing her tools and minimizing her weaknesses.

Yea it's not like Zack, the second best Bayo. did not 3-0 Marss , the second best ZSS the last two sets the played. You cannot judge an MU just by the results from the Best player of the character . Nairo has a good record for beating Sheik. Does that mean I am to belive ZSS beats Sheik?

 

[TDK]

Any reason for not including Luigi?

Think about who's making this list. I doubt Aba's ever actually fought a Luigi as Bayo when his Mewtwo (and if that goes south, Rosa) are better picks for him in that matchup in every scenario. Sonic's also probably on there because of KEN.

Unless you're talking about me, in which case I'm gonna go with "I forgot, but Bayos seem to be figuring it out so I'm withholding judgement on it for a little, but sure I'll add it"

 

[Flamegeyser]

Please explain yourself

Mario actually has a grab game, and his quicker startup gives him superior mixups, with more guessing having to be done to not get grabbed and take 70% or get usmashed and die. Bayonetta has a superior punish game and longer limbs, but those don't equate to the same thing.

Luigi is much the same, with a better projectile to control space, but inferior mobility and landing options. His dash grab is straight broke, too, and his hitboxes and frame data allow him to create more ambiguous situations that lead into followups or death, of course.

I was wrong about ZSS and MK, I admit

Pit's entire STRENGTH is his neutral game, are you serious? He has tremendous space controlling options, forces the approach, has decent-good frame data, and a solid grab game (although not as good as the mario bros.).

Palutena's strength is her neutral game, too, I would say, but she has fewer potent killing options, and her damage output is mediocre, which is a lot of what makes her mid-low tier. But with superior mobility, a grab game (yes, that is very important), a practically unstoppable back air, and a better boxing game she edges out bayo in that regard.

Also it's important to keep in mind that even tho bayo DOES have burst mobility, unless she gets to the ledge, she's putting herself at risk by doing so. She doesn't have an aerial command grab, so long as you're diligent, you can punish special lag and condition her not to use it to escape as much. Sometimes you won't be able to and that's fine, and there are mixups that can make it harder, any competent bayo will try and use them to avoid punishment because landing with lag is a *****.

 

[|RK|]

These are probably going to be relevant for a while:

and these are hard but still doable (might need stage pick)
Mario/Peach/MK/Ryu/Mewtwo/Pika

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) July 23, 2017

I would also personally include and maybe on this list, too.

Yet another MU I've only played in friendlies, but the Bayo MU is just... much less stressful as Lucario. I'm pretty much convinced he goes even. He doesn't have a super large hurtbox, has a strong grab game & a projectile, and on top of that, Bayo's inability to kill without bair/Witch Time past a certain percent makes Lucario DANGEROUS.

Oh, and unlike against most characters, she can't run away and plank, since she furthers Lucario's win condition. Finally, she has to KILL with her edgeguards, instead of expecting Lucario to fail to recover (what she normally relies on).
---
BTW, here are the Cloudhead Rankings:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16t4QiNEl25hKQLvafM5G5lNbYr3fa1N3TbGipTl_mto/edit#gid=0