Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Bowserboy3]

In regards to Bayonetta MK, it's a MU that I play most weeks.

From what I know, my friend who uses Meta Knight (also ranked 3rd on the region's PR) says that Bayonetta is one of Meta Knight's harder MU's, for the main reason that you can't effectively edgeguard Bayonetta, removing one of his strongest points. I know for a fact that when I'm playing if I get launched off stage, all you need to do is drop as far as you can before using ABK and then your Twists and MK won't really attempt to challenge you. Add onto the fact that he can't extend off stage to pressure you with a Fair or Bair because you can just DI/drift out and still recover thanks to ABK and it removes his pressure.

However, he's more than capable of beating Bayonetta. Uair Shuttle Loop combos still work on Bayonetta (if the Meta Knight screws up the timing on one of the Uairs, it's an easy Bat Within to safety, but then again others can just air dodge too), and her weight and fall speed mean she's actually quite the sucker to them at the right percent, though she's not a Rosalina/Peach/Samus who get KO'd by it ay 30%, but once the percent is right, it's hard to escape (because higher hitstun etc)unless you SDI the Uair away from him.

I'm feeling that if Bayonetta plays this MU super patiently (not necessarily campy, but more bait him into coming to you with held Dtilt, and simply getting a lead and waiting on say, Smashville's platform), then this MU should be a minor advantage to Bayonetta. If both characters are trying to play their own game by pressing buttons, Meta Knight wins. It's about the player not playing to what Meta Knight wants.

But like any match with Meta Knight, focus is key; if you press a button at the wrong time you can die at mid percent so you have to keep your wits about you.

 

[NairWizard]

Earlier I mentioned Brawl Snake's f-tilt, which was a frame-4 move that does 21% damage. When I made that post, I was thinking, "Psh, nothing like that in this game. That's just obscenity."

I was walking home today and I suddenly had an epiphany.

Fox's dash attack is a frame-4 move that can be used out of run, does 6% damage, and pops the opponent up, setting up for a potential double up-air that does 32% damage.

Fox is disgusting.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Earlier I mentioned Brawl Snake's f-tilt, which was a frame-4 move that does 21% damage. When I made that post, I was thinking, "Psh, nothing like that in this game. That's just obscenity."

I was walking home today and I suddenly had an epiphany.

Fox's dash attack is a frame-4 move that can be used out of run, does 6% damage, and pops the opponent up, setting up for a potential double up-air that does 32% damage.

Fox is disgusting.

fox's utilt is a frame 3 move that does 9%, can be used out of fox's broken ass perfect pivot, can be combod into from just about anything, and combos into literally everything

This game is less balanced than people think

 

[Yikarur]

so I have to lame Olimar out until I have an opening. Sounds like my general game plan 8)

 

[Minordeth]

Oh man, ohhh man, Snake's Ftilt. A two hit tilt that can cancel into jab or itself, trip, or if they happen to shield can be mixed up into grab, Fsmash or whatever. Or it could lead into Snake's almost equally as ridiculous Utilt.

Actually, looking at the hitbox, his Dtilt is similar to Bayo's Dtilt, except it's one frame faster, can kill, puts him prone, and knocks into the air.

Yeah, Fox has some honest gross stuff, but Utilt is -10 on shield, and dash attack is -19, so IIIRC, not nearly as safe as Snake's tilts.



Thank god?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

People got good at powershilding or perfectly spotdoging Snakes f-tilt out of necessity. Similar to learning SDI for Bayo in Smash 4. Either you get good at countering It, or you lose

 

[Baby_Sneak]

fox's utilt is a frame 3 move that does 9%, can be used out of fox's broken *** perfect pivot, can be combod into from just about anything, and combos into literally everything

This game is less balanced than people think

We go down the line and say the same things about every character in the game.

Remember the discussion about robin's Fair? Or luigi's frame 2/3 grab that potentially leads into 60%?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

so I have to lame Olimar out until I have an opening. Sounds like my general game plan 8)

Exactly, yes. Refer to this video for reference.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHhizLQAju0

One time I played against Dabuz at a local, I went Olimar and he went Bayonetta and he spent most of the match just jumping on one side of the stage over and over again and sneaking in damage from the bullet arts on his aerials. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do about that to this day. Can't grab him, Pikmin toss accomplishes very little, my Aerials won't help me. I asked him if he was ****ing with me (I didn't mean to be rude, though in hindsight it may have sounded that way) and he told me "no, this is just how you play the matchup".

Well, he's right. Just air camp and punish Olimar hard when he's off stage. Flick a switch in your mind when you see Olimar off stage and go on the offense. It should be easy enough to spike him with Yoshi but until then just jump around and throw eggs at him.

 

[Heracr055]

We go down the line and say the same things about every character in the game.

Remember the discussion about robin's Fair? Or luigi's frame 2/3 grab that potentially leads into 60%?

People who were calling Robin's Fair the best aerial in the game were treating the move in a vacuum, and weren't taking jumpsquat or startup frames into consideration.
Fox's utilt, by contrast (as well as his other moves), are great at comboing into eachother. Combine that with his frame data and movement specs and you get a char who can easily rack up huge damage strings that will put you at death percents in a relatively quick time frame. And Fox has little to no trouble setting up his kills from what I've seen.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo said he's 95% of the way to maining Bayo and he would likely get her banned. Will the darkest timeline begin/end sooner than later? 🤔

— PowPow (@PowPowSmash) July 27, 2017

Outside of the fact that this is a really dirty move on ZeRo's part, maining a character just to get them banned, is this what the future of smash 4 holds?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

ZeRo said he's 95% of the way to maining Bayo and he would likely get her banned. Will the darkest timeline begin/end sooner than later? 🤔

— PowPow (@PowPowSmash) July 27, 2017

Outside of the fact that this is a really dirty move on ZeRo's part, maining a character just to get them banned, is this what the future of smash 4 holds?

If ZeRo could not get pre-patch Diddy banned then I doubt Bayo under ZeRo will get banned either. Even in his vid complaining about pre-patch Bayo he disagreed with banning her.

But if ZeRo is seriously only going to learn and main Bayo just to get her banned. It would be one seriously d-bag move. I seriously cannot see ZeRo doing that damage to the game that is both his passion and career.

 

[Nu~]

Pretty sure ZeRo is joking.
But if he's switching to Bayo...I mean...

Can anyone really say they're surprised? Dude wants to be the very best

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Pretty sure ZeRo is joking.
But if he's switching to Bayo...I mean...

Can anyone really say they're surprised? Dude wants to be the very best

Yea. I think he tweeted that if he does end up doing better with Bayo then with Diddy, we will make the switch because at the end of the day, the game is his livelihood and he wants to be as sucessful at it as he can

 

[L9999]

If ZeRo could not get pre-patch Diddy banned then I doubt Bayo under ZeRo will get banned either. Even in his vid complaining about pre-patch Bayo he disagreed with banning her.

But if ZeRo is seriously only going to learn and main Bayo just to get her banned. It would be one seriously d-bag move. I seriously cannot see ZeRo doing that damage to the game that is both his passion and career.

Nevermind that his plan has no right to work and has a ton of holes. What if he gets bopped using Bayo? Does that mean Bayo is overrated and we are back to square 1? Just because he wins doesn't warrant a ban. He has won every damn tournament with Diddy Kong and Sheik and no one remotely cares. It is pure arbitrary bias with Bayo. OK, so he wins the tournament, but is the rest of top 8 Bayo too? What if its not? If she were broken/banworthy/cancer she would be the only character in top 8. What if she get figured out? Back to square 1 again? If arbitrary bias is the big deal should we ban Cloud too? Why not ban every character we don't like?

 

[Trunks159]

If ZeRo could not get pre-patch Diddy banned then I doubt Bayo under ZeRo will get banned either. Even in his vid complaining about pre-patch Bayo he disagreed with banning her.

But if ZeRo is seriously only going to learn and main Bayo just to get her banned. It would be one seriously d-bag move. I seriously cannot see ZeRo doing that damage to the game that is both his passion and career.

Diddy didn't get banned for a number of reasons.

A. The game just came out.
B. Diddy wasn't as developed as he is now
C. Still had prepatch , , , , running around
probably could've been banned by now.

If we get Top 8s with 4 s and some s, would likely be nerfed/banned. I'm guessing this would take like 6 months of bayo dominating to get her banned.

Pretty sure ZeRo is joking.
But if he's switching to Bayo...I mean...

Can anyone really say they're surprised? Dude wants to be the very best

Didn't sound like he was joking in the interview.
I don't think it will actually happen, since he'll probably figure out a way to beat Salem.

 

[ぱみゅ]

RE: People got VERY good at counterplay in Brawl. Against Snake they never were next to him on F/U-tilt range, and if they were there they usually had a plan: be ready for either tilt and shield it, or, if their % was low enough not to die from an Utilt, expect a Ftilt and SDI the hell out of it and get BEHIND Snake to punish it. That game had a VERY deep skillset that isn't too evident to the untrained eye (much like Bayonetta is right now).



Also, one thing that worries me is that Bayonetta might artificially saturate brackets. Theoretically, top players can just randomly decide everyone will use her, fill Top 8s with her simply for being popular and then force an action, despite not being as good of a character to warrant it.
It is a dumb plan, but I can somewhat see it happening in this era of "let's do it for the memes".

 

[C0rvus]

Bayo is the future. She breaks fundamental rules of the game and has some incredibly strong tools, while having arguably the most versatile advantage state in the game and being un-edgeguardable. Given time, counterplay will evolve but more and more players in every skill bracket will be playing her. This is the darkest timeline. Only Smash for Switch can save us now

I'm being a little hyperbolic, but it's cool that the game is evolving to a stage where we can start to see the gap that exists between the best characters and the rest of the cast. Smash 4 may end up like Melee and Brawl did before it, where only a chunk of the cast is really worth using. So soak it up while you can, people. The golden age of Smash 4 is coming to a close

 

[Wintermelon43]

Going by that tweet, it doesn't even sound like ZeRo is using Bayo just to get her banned. It sounds more like he'll use Bayonetta and that he thinks him maining her will probably end up with her banned, not that he's trying to get her banned

 

[L9999]

Bayo is the future. She breaks fundamental rules of the game and has some incredibly strong tools, while having arguably the most versatile advantage state in the game and being un-edgeguardable. Given time, counterplay will evolve but more and more players in every skill bracket will be playing her. This is the darkest timeline. Only Smash for Switch can save us now

I'm being a little hyperbolic, but it's cool that the game is evolving to a stage where we can start to see the gap that exists between the best characters and the rest of the cast. Smash 4 may end up like Melee and Brawl did before it, where only a chunk of the cast is really worth using. So soak it up while you can, people. The golden age of Smash 4 is coming to a close

Sooner or later the game was going to be centralized on one character. Hell, it got centralized ASAP with Diddy, patches only delayed the inevitable.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Can we please stop totally overreacting to bayo? Yes Salem won Evo and Dreamhack with her but how Salem plays her or optimized her is still new to the Meta.

It took Top player some time to adapt to zacks Bayo but they did. Salem is better than Zack and his Playstyle is very different so it will take some more time but Salem won't win every single relevant tourney now.

Can we stop panicking and give it at least a little bit of time? Like half of the thread is whining about Bayo right now. There is still a ton of misinformation about bayo and just complaining won't solve that.
Like do you guys were thinking Bayo will never win a major?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik and Diddy players would love for ZeRo to go Bayo full-time.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

People who were calling Robin's Fair the best aerial in the game were treating the move in a vacuum, and weren't taking jumpsquat or startup frames into consideration.
Fox's utilt, by contrast (as well as his other moves), are great at comboing into eachother. Combine that with his frame data and movement specs and you get a char who can easily rack up huge damage strings that will put you at death percents in a relatively quick time frame. And Fox has little to no trouble setting up his kills from what I've seen.

Then they put it in context and said it's top 15.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

We go down the line and say the same things about every character in the game.

Remember the discussion about robin's Fair? Or luigi's frame 2/3 grab that potentially leads into 60%?

except Fox actually has the mobility and frame data to use things like his utilt to their full potential. Robins fair is attached to a frame 7 jumpsquat. Fox's utilt is attached to the 4th fastest run speed, 2nd fastest walk speed (with better acceleration than first place), a long ass perfect pivot, and possibly a long ass step dash if that ever becomes a thing people start using

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'm not taking any of the Bayonetta getting banned talk seriously until another six months of data comes by. If she can dominate the game and saturate top 8s and 16s and then maybe thier will be a case but not right now and I honestly don't think ever. Bayonetta might not lose any MUs but I'm not convinced she doesn't have a handful of even MUs and that's just a matter of skill and out playing the player at that point. It might have to do with a younger community but a lot of people don't seem to have experience in what is truly broken, I've been around long enough to experience a few meta's in different genres to know broken when I see broken. And it's not like Salem is winning his sets in blow out fashion even he could had lost plenty of sets at EVO and Dreamhack, Salem is just that good a player.

When Bayonetta mirrors become the majority of top eight at most majors and she's winning sets in dominant fashion against other characters then I'll agree she's broken but she's not yet done any of these things.

 

[Lord Dio]

Darkest timeline? I thought Link defeated Ganondorf back at Civil War......

For real, it's both surprising and revealing about how much discussion can be started just from one comment that may or may not be off the cuff from a top player.

Also, no, the golden age of smash has not ended. Imo, it hasn't even started. ZeRo playing bayo will not get her banned. If we see nothing but bayos and clouds, and counterplay for the two becomes very small and limited, yeah we can ban 'em. But counterplay is already very big, so it's likely we won't end up doing any banning.

Tl;dr, that twitter post is very silly and I think it's silly we're making such a big deal over it.

 

[C0rvus]

I dunno, where we're at right now is pretty nice. There's a ton of character diversity, there's so so much talent at high-top level that it makes even early bracket matches exciting. Some characters are pretty much optimized, but plenty are still developing (Fox in particular seems absolutely insane in theory). We're not full on esports, but we're getting Sunday finals at EVO and there's a major or two every month. If the golden age is yet to come, I'm super excited to see where this game can go, and I want to be a part of it.

 

[FeelMeUp]

no more bayo ban talk please
if you guys could deal with prepatch sheik being +2/3 on your characters and being able to 2 stock you only using 4 moves, you can deal with this

 

[NotLiquid]

Remember when we were told by people like ANTi that ZeRo's Cloud was gonna be a gamechanger and that he was the best Cloud?

Good times.

 

[Game7a1]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-10-goml-and-defend-the-north.449206/
Should have posted this yesterday, but oh well.

 

[NairWizard]

yeah, as insane as I think the character is, I somehow think that ZeRo's Bayonetta will get absolutely no results at all

Mark my words, he'll switch back to Diddy in no time if he goes through with this.

 

[Lord Dio]

Remember when we were told by people like ANTi that ZeRo's Cloud was gonna be a gamechanger and that he was the best Cloud?

Good times.

Almost as good as ZeRo putting out videos on characters literally right as/after we discuss them XD
I can't wait to see ZeRo's bayo appear for the first time though......he's going to GOML right?

 

[blackghost]

Pretty sure ZeRo is joking.
But if he's switching to Bayo...I mean...

Can anyone really say they're surprised? Dude wants to be the very best

I'm surprised considering we've seen 0 pocket bayo's do well. Zero isn't known for setting trends in this game he copies other successful character choices. In comparison to nairo and Dabuz both bringing out surprise characters.

it's incredibly arrogant to suggest you learned bayo in a week when we continuously see new things from her elite players

It's because of statements like this and other things about zero that I will never look at like a Justin Wong, Chris g, tokido, sonic fox, or others. This even if he's joking seems incredibly petty and makes the community that much worse. I can't see any other top respected player ever saying something like this publicly. It's absurd. I honestly hope he fails miserably.

 

[OverTime]

I'm pretty sure he realizes that one player cannot get a character banned, especially a top player, especially the #1 player. It gives people the cop out of saying that X character is carried and is too hollow a plan for a grown man to carry out. Assuming it even works.

He could just be practicing stupidity, but he's 95% just talking crap.

 

[Shaya]

Snake ftilt addendum
If you shielded the first hit of Snake's ftilt, no matter what, you could shield drop into a reshield before the second hit (or anything else) could come out.
If the snake player did a buffered second hit/earliest second hit as possible, you would get an automatic power shield.

This was significant; shield drop reshield was a 100% safe, reactable strategy.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

neverminf this post.

 

[Nu~]

Is anyone else curious about the direction that mega man's meta is headed?

Mega Man has been on a steady decline which is further steepened by kameme's lessening usage of him. It's like after the footstool combo was found, no one has really advanced his meta that much further.

I don't think the char is fundamentally linear (he was designed to be versatile what with all the unique robot master weapons he has), but his nuetral atm feels veeeeery reliant on pellets/lemons and the occasional metal blade set up.

If mega man is gonna survive this meta, his nuetral needs to be a lot more dynamic. Tired of seeing Larry just nair/dair/dash attack through pellets and then proceed to erase kameme lol.

 

[Kofu]

Is anyone else curious about the direction that mega man's meta is headed?

Mega Man has been on a steady decline which is further steepened by kameme's lessening usage of him. It's like after the footstool combo was found, no one has really advanced his meta that much further.

I don't think the char is fundamentally linear (he was designed to be versatile what with all the unique robot master weapons he has), but his nuetral atm feels veeeeery reliant on pellets/lemons and the occasional metal blade set up.

If mega man is gonna survive this meta, his nuetral needs to be a lot more dynamic. Tired of seeing Larry just nair/dair/dash attack through pellets and then proceed to erase kameme lol.

Mega Man's trade-off for such a strong zoning game is that his CQC is rather poor. His design, IMO, is one that implicitly loses/struggles against rushdown characters like Fox and Sheik. (Random thought, how well does Pikachu do against him?)

I agree that the character still has room to grow and expand. I don't see Mega Man losing many matchups outside of a few in top/high tier. A zoner with a normal grab is pretty disgusting.

 

[Nu~]

Mega Man's trade-off for such a strong zoning game is that his CQC is rather poor. His design, IMO, is one that implicitly loses/struggles against rushdown characters like Fox and Sheik. (Random thought, how well does Pikachu do against him?)

I agree that the character still has room to grow and expand. I don't see Mega Man losing many matchups outside of a few in top/high tier. A zoner with a normal grab is pretty disgusting.

Tru, tru

In regards to the pikachu matchup, ESAM thinks pikachu destroys mega man but I've seen mega man mains talk about how the pellet/QA interaction make the MU decent.

 

[TDK]

Meanwhile, in Louisiana...

BrawlerG31 3-2 Captain Zack

The Mac-Bayo matchup seems to be surprisingly difficult for Bayo. Are the Bayos playing it wrong, or is it Mac?

 

[ARGHETH]

Meanwhile, in Louisiana...

BrawlerG31 3-2 Captain Zack

The Mac-Bayo matchup seems to be surprisingly difficult for Bayo. Are the Bayos playing it wrong, or is it Mac?

Hasn't it mainly been Zack losing to Macs?