Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[toonito]

2GGC: ARMS Saga (July 8th-9th) (Southern California) (200 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:

RNG | Dabuz
2nd:

TSM | ZeRo ,
3rd:

KEN
4th:

CLG| VoiD
5th:

2GG | komorikiri
5th:

LH | Charliedaking
7th:

Tsu ,
7th:

P1 | Tweek
9th:

MSF | Larry Lurr ,
9th:

Ranai
9th:

DNG | Kameme
9th:

Cosmos
13th:

CLG | NAKAT ,
13th:

SWG | Lima
13th:

LG | Abadango ,
13th:

Vinnie ,
17th:

Eim
17th:

BL | Lazyboredom
17th:

BSD | Aarvark
17th:

BSD | Elegant
17th:

MF | LH | K9sbruce ,
17th:

Raito
17th:

Locus
17th:

PG | Rich Brown
25th:

Noble | Sol
25th:

StDx | Falln
25th:

RvL | Xzax
25th:

SS | Mr. ConCon
25th:

LH | Eon
25th:

TeS | Ghost
25th:

Phoenix
25th:

NCJacobT ,

Spoiler: GUMS 16 (July 8th) (New England) (100 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Marss
2nd: Craftis
3rd: MattyG ,
4th: Koolaid
5th: Light
5th: Scot!
7th: Tsage
7th: Dark Wizzy

Spoiler: Divided (July 8th) (Florida) (186 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Manny
2nd: ESAM
3rd: MVD
4th: dyr
5th: KidG
5th: 8BitMan
7th: Rideae ,
7th: Nick Riddle
9th: Riot
9th: Child
9th: Dath
9th: Mugi
13th: Myran
13th: Blank
13th: DJ Jack
13th: saj

Spoiler: Ascension 2 (July 8th) (Midwest) (106 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: 6WX
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: LOE1 ,
4th: Nero
5th: Daybreak ,
5th: SETHsational
7th: Cilvanis
7th: Ozone

Spoiler: Adapt Kingdom 1 (July 8th) (Spain) (92 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: MVL
2nd: Robo Luigi
3rd: Greward
4th: Marcbri ,
5th: Pefo
5th: Pepo
7th: S
7th: El Pitika ,

Spoiler: Don’t You Dair 7 (July 8th) (Northern California) (140 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Legit
2nd: DSS
3rd: Shaky
4th: FuTure ,
5th: Virus ,
5th: Teb
7th: Oblivion
7th: Vermillion ,

Spoiler: Storm The Harbor (July 9th) (East Canada) (96 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Freye ,
2nd: Vapor ,
3rd: VidyaToast
4th: Saint Heavens
5th: Snowman
5th: Aedrenaline ,
7th: Moju
7th: Blue

Spoiler: Suburban Showdown (July 8th) (Tristate) (82 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: Shoyo James ,
3rd: Vivid ,
4th: The Great Gonzales

Spoiler: That Was Easy 1 (July 8th) (South) (48 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Jumbolias
2nd: Phantom
3rd: Deluxemenu
4th: Whispy

Spoiler: Coffee Boys 16 (July 9th) (Florida) (45 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Salem
2nd: RoguePenguin
3rd: Ryo
4th: Blue Beast ,

Spoiler: Meltdown Smash Challenge 3 (July 8th) (France) (51 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny ,
2nd: Elexiao
3rd: embryo
4th: Phogos

Spoiler: Lucina Doesn’t Tip 4 (July 8th) (Southeast) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dandy Penguin
2nd: Deepblue
3rd: Kresent ,
4th: DietSoda ,

Spoiler: New Age of Heroes 3 (July 9th) (Midwest) (29 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: yeti
2nd: BlazingSkie
3rd: Zguh
4th: TigerBoi ,

Spoiler: Indianapolis Impact (July 8th) (Midwest) (82 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkShad
2nd: Mystearica
3rd: Percy ,
4th: Sells

Spoiler: Uprising in Springdale (July 8th) (South) (42 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Cheezeballer ,
2nd: Galeforce
3rd: Danbi
4th: Spyrobi

Spoiler: Farewell the Blue Lantern (July 8th) (Tristate) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: IcyMist
2nd: Raptor
3rd: Midnight
4th: Chrome Kingfisher

Spoiler: Atlantic Extravaganza 14 (July 8th) (Tristate) (45 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Seagull Joe ,
2nd: Sandstorm
3rd: Disqo_Bunny
4th: Logic

Spoiler: Battle Royale 2017 (July 8th) (Puerto Rico) (58 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: EKING ,
2nd: Xeon
3rd: Headshot
4th: PCJosePan

Spoiler: Updated Character Scores

Bayonetta: 395.5
Diddy Kong: 374.5
Cloud: 343
Sonic: 249.5
Sheik: 234
Mario: 218
Fox: 216.5
Zero Suit Samus: 192
Rosalina & Luma: 179.5
Ryu: 152
Mewtwo: 143.5
Mega Man: 110.5
Meta Knight: 108.5
Corrin: 100
Donkey Kong: 85
Pikachu: 84
Ness: 81.5
Villager: 79
Captain Falcon: 78.5
Luigi: 76
Marth: 75.5
Peach: 71
Greninja: 64.5
Bowser: 62
Lucina: 58.5
Olimar: 58
Lucas: 56.5
Toon Link: 53.5
R.O.B.: 51.5
Samus: 44
Duck Hunt: 43
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Yoshi: 39.5
Lucario: 32
Ike: 28
Little Mac: 27
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 25
Charizard: 24.5
Wario: 21.5
Roy: 18.5
Link: 16
Pit: 17
Pac-Man: 13.5
Shulk: 12
Palutena: 12
Falco: 8
King Dedede: 7
Ganondorf: 7
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

looking at the character scores Marth has dropped significantly (21 as of today) and Ryu quietly snuck into top 10

Toon Link at 28 and Link at 42

 

[Game7a1]

Did they release the scores this time? On the PG2 version Bayo was placed above Diddy because someone gave 1/10's to 98% of the cast.

They did. I'm wondering when the data was collected. If it was the same time the X-Factor surveys were sent out, then it might explain some placements.
Anyways, there are some ties in the data.

• Bayo and Diddy share 1st
• Marth and Ryu share 10th
• Lucario and Pikachu share 18th
• Bowser, Mega Man, and Villager share 22nd
• Luigi and Olimar share 25th
• Ike and Wario share 40th
• Unrelated, but Lucina was the only character to have a solid number result (8 out of 10).

 

[TDK]

CFL Smackdown 132 (59 Entrants) (Florida)

1st: Dyr
2nd: UtopianRay
3rd: Mugi
4th: Kiki

 

[Lord Dio]

Well.......amidst the top player replies on the pgstats thing, one good thing has come out of it.
We can get a new video from Fatality XD.
Interestingly enough, Fatality thinks Bayo's overrated, and will explain why in a day or so.

 

[pichuplayer]

Ok I came to give my two cents on this with two characters; Pikachu and DK. While the rest of this list is fine I really think that the mouse and ape should swap places because I feel like while Donkey Kong deserves to be in A tier I don't think he's good enough to the point where he's better then Meta Knight, Falcon, Lucario and Pikachu. On the flip side I feel like Pikachu is good enough to be above those 4 (with ESAM seeming to come back a bit) maybe not Falcon but Lucario, DK and Meta Knight I feel is a sure yes.

 

[FullMoon]

I will say, Greninja's fall in public perception has been sharp.

It's kinda to be expected considering how Greninja Saga turned out. That was the opportunity for a big breakthrough and it didn't happen.

 

[Yonder]

It's kinda to be expected considering how Greninja Saga turned out. That was the opportunity for a big breakthrough and it didn't happen.

And after Little Mac's appauling performance at ARMS, aside from lazybordom, his perception won't be out of low tier anytime soon.

 

[Nu~]

And after Little Mac's appauling performance at ARMS, aside from lazybordom, his perception won't be out of low tier anytime soon.

Sol did pretty well too, but I see what u mean.

 

[Rizen]

https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/884524218779676673

The PGStats voted tier list thing is out. I kinda like it, although Marth and Ryu are too high for my liking.

Who are the PGStats?

 

[TDK]

Who are the PGStats?

The people behind the PGR.

 

[Rizen]

The people behind the PGR.

Help me out, are they TOs, notable players or just some website?

 

[TDK]

Help me out, are they TOs, notable players or just some website?

None of the above, they're people like Juddy and Suar, who take stats on every(?) aspect of smash 4. They're affiliated with Panda Global, and are the ones behind the panda global rankings.

 

[ARGHETH]

Help me out, are they TOs, notable players or just some website?

This tier list had, among others, Dabuz, Earth, Kirihara, Komorikiri, Leo, Pugwest, Umeki, Tsu, and Zan voting.

 

[TDK]

Charliedaking 2-0 ZeRo

I doubt ZeRo was really trying, but this happened.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well this just happened at MSM 104

Charliedaking 2-0 ZeRo

Edit: 'D

 

[|RK|]

Charliedaking 2-0 ZeRo

I doubt ZeRo was really trying, but this happened.

ZeRo is going all secondaries today. Charlie looks like he's doing the same?

Charlie's Sheik was looking CLEAN. Sadly, outside of Diddy, ZeRo's characters all lose to Sheik. But like... Charlie also outplayed him.

Just a reminder - this is why locals don't count for PGR.

 

[JB333]

Honestly ZeRo's Falcon looked a lot cleaner than his Lucina, and that's pretty shocking considering the fact that the sheik MU is much worse for Falcon than for Lucina.


Also AEMehr > Ranai

Ranai probably used but still

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Honestly ZeRo's Falcon looked a lot cleaner than his Lucina, and that's pretty shocking considering the fact that the sheik MU is much worse for Falcon than for Lucina.


Also AEMehr > Ranai

Ranai probably used but still

1. He used ryu
2. AEM uses mii gunner

 

[TDK]

Kameme 2-0 ZeRo , causing ZeRo to place 9th at MSM 104.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Kameme 2-0 ZeRo , causing ZeRo to place 9th at MSM 104.

From the two posts you made about ZeRo's losses, one could assume he was just trying out secondaries...? Who knows, but I saw no Diddy.

---

And tbh, I quite like that PGR Tier List, probably aligns with more of my opinions than the current 4BR one.

Few minor opinions about it:

• I'm fine with Marth being in the S- tier; I think he has more than deserved his place in there, but I do feel Mewtwo should be ranked above him. Potentially Ryu, but as of yet, I'm fine with Marth being above Ryu.
• Seeing Bayonetta TIED with another character gives me hope. I honestly don't feel (as a user of her) that she is outright the best. I've said for a while that I feel there are a few characters so good it's impossible to rank a clear winner, so seeing this is amazing, especially because it's the two characters I feel should be ranked up there (Cloud would be the other).
• Still feel Cloud should be at least above Sheik. Sheik has been rather tame overall this season, whereas Cloud has still had much more success, even as a CP character.
• Rosalina being top 5 and in the highest tier; I am happy with this. Could arguably see her developing to 4th best in the game, but 5th is more than good enough for her for now.
• Also nice to see ZSS not get the short end of the stick again. I feel 9th is fair for her; could potentially be above Mario but she isn't the last S- tier character like I expected her to be.
• DK being top 15 seems suuuuuper strange on one hand, but on the other hand you can kind of see why top players would think this; he's got good CP ability and general solid tools.
• Samus mid tier; lets go!
• Doc bottom 5 is both sad but also kind of makes sense. Sad in the sense that when you look at his tools and stuff, he's not actually a bad character (which is kind of a testament to how balanced this game is), but I'd imagine top players have more of the opinion of "why use Doc when there's Mario?", which in all honesty, is a fair argument.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/884524218779676673

The PGStats voted tier list thing is out. I kinda like it, although Marth and Ryu are too high for my liking.

Corrin in top 15, hyperlul
Seriously, what has she done to deserve her rank? Her theory isn't even top 15 material.

 

[TDK]

MSM 104 (134 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: KEN
2nd: Abadango
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Kameme
5th: Locus
5th: Komorikiri
7th: Lima
7th: Charliedaking

9th: ZeRo (Confirmed he didn't use Diddy at all on Twitter)

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be honest, I am going to be that guy and say that, while top 15 may be a liiiiitle high, Corrin is being slept on; big time. The character is very good, and people will be in for a rude awakening if Leo decides to use his Corrin more often.

The character still gets some of the best results if we look at DasKoopa's rankings.

And no, Corrin's tools are actually really solid; no, this is not just revolving around Dragon Lunge (pin), which a reminder, is outright silly in most MU's. Possessing moves that can be used to space (Dtilt, Bair, Fair and Nair), some of which start combos on hit (Dtilt, Fair and Nair; all of these can convert into combos) is a huge boon. He also has a projectile, which while minor, is still notable, especially considering it has the ability to confirm into a kill.

I want to focus on Dtilt again. A very good poke/spacing move. What's notable about this move is that it actually drags opponents inwards a little while hitting them upwards, which makes getting followups very easy.

While Corrin's subpar mobility can make certain MU's tough, it's not slow enough to be a huge issue; people like to blow this point way out of proportion. Corrin wants to be spacing around the opponent anyways, not rushing in like Falcon, or in a closer example, Roy.

If I am being harsh on Corrin, right now, I don't see him any lower than Peach. This is if I am being harsh and say "not enough appearances at top level" for example. I honestly don't see how any character below that area has a reason to be above him on a tools to tools basis. Maybe Toon Link.

 

[Laken64]

While Corrin's subpar mobility can make certain MU's tough, it's not slow enough to be a huge issue; people like to blow this point way out of proportion. Corrin wants to be spacing around the opponent

Interestingly enough, Corrin has a pretty good initial dash and also the fastest dash to shield tied with sheik (7 frames I think) and just yesterday during Cosmos set against void he started using Extended dash dancing to constantly pop in and out of void's range and punish/kill with aerial pin (the best pin) which in Corrincord we agreed was a great microspacing tool as well as putting that great initial dash to work.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It's kinda to be expected considering how Greninja Saga turned out. That was the opportunity for a big breakthrough and it didn't happen.

Still, I think it's too low.

 

[FullMoon]

Overall I don't have too many issues with that tier list, if I had to make any changes to it...

- Corrin should be a little lower, behind Falcon or maybe behind MK
- I'd put DK next to Bowser
- I think Pac-Man should be at least above Little Mac
- I think I'd put Peach behind Megaman and Toon Link above Lucario.

I'm not going to comment much on Greninja because main bias and I can understand why he dropped, but if I were to place him somewhere it would be at the top of A-

 

[|RK|]

Lucario has done more than Toon Link lately tho

 

[HoSmash4]

A character with 's Dash shield frame data does not have bad movement. If Corrin had The range of someone like Ness or Mario, his speed would be a massive roadblock but it turns out that Corrin has some of the best range and kill power in the game.

 

[|RK|]

Hm. Turns out Corrin should has better dash speed than Sheik (1.8, same as Lucario), and the same dash length (8 frames). That's super good.

That's good mobility in terms of footsies, but that doesn't solve the issue of just... running away.

 

[Bigbomb2]

That tier list is actually...pretty good. Just a couple little tweaks and it wouldn't be too far off from what kind of list I'd make. Samus definitely got some love finally.

 

[Routa]

Lucario has done more than Toon Link lately tho

Toon Link has always had a stable income of results from multiple TL players while Lucario tends to get one great result from time to time from very few players.

Speaking of Lucario... I think that he will fall in the future once people start fishing kills as early as possible and avoid giving him any extra Aura and rage.

 

[Frihetsanka]

To be honest, I am going to be that guy and say that, while top 15 may be a liiiiitle high, Corrin is being slept on; big time. The character is very good, and people will be in for a rude awakening if Leo decides to use his Corrin more often.

Some people on Reddit still think that she (and Lucina) are mid tier. I think they're both high tier (and Lucina and Marth could potentially be top tier, since they mostly lack bad matchups).

Possessing moves that can be used to space (Dtilt, Bair, Fair and Nair), some of which start combos on hit (Dtilt, Fair and Nair; all of these can convert into combos) is a huge boon.

She also has one of the better up-airs in the game, which combos fairly well, is disjointed, and kills fairly early (especially when fresh). Oh, and quite likely the second best counter in the game.

While Corrin's subpar mobility can make certain MU's tough, it's not slow enough to be a huge issue; people like to blow this point way out of proportion.

Her weakness to shields is also a significant issue. She doesn't get too much from grabs and most of her moves are not very safe on shield at all.

I honestly don't see how any character below that area has a reason to be above him on a tools to tools basis. Maybe Toon Link.

I'd argue Corrin has better results than Toon Link recently. Probably because Hyuga hasn't been very active recently, but couldn't you say the same thing about Corrin players? Cosmos can travel more often now, which will likely result in more Corrin results.

How good is Corrin? Somewhere between #14 and #20, I think.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm not going to comment much on Greninja because main bias and I can understand why he dropped, but if I were to place him somewhere it would be at the top of A-

Something that dawned on me after I heard ZeRo mention it was that Greninja just doesn't have the amazing CP or supporting potential that other characters offer. Took me a moment to get my head around, but to be honest, I can kind of see it.

Like, DK and even Bowser have more usage as counterpick characters. If you're looking for swift, fast characters, there are usually ones that do Greninja's job better, namely ZSS, Sonic etc.

Like, what I am seeing, is that Greninja is usually the main character, with better characters supporting him. He kind of doesn't have that niche supporting ability, or CP'ing ability. But maybe there's some MU I don't know about.

This isn't to knock Greninja though, who's still a really solid character. He probably could be a tad higher, but what I am interested in hearing is from a Greninja player themselves, if they kind of agree with the suggestion ZeRo had. Do you?

---

Anyway, Greninja's fall is also likely to do with the rise of other characters. There was a time when DK, Bowser, Falcon, Peach, Lucas etc, were all considered around or below Greninja's level. They've all been on the rise. And to be honest, unless Greninja starts pulling some things out of the hat sooner or later, I can only see him dropping more because of this, especially when characters like Samus are looking healthier than ever right now.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Some people on Reddit

Any such examples? I'm guessing big4lil is one of them.

 

[Laken64]

Hm. Turns out Corrin should has better dash speed than Sheik (1.8, same as Lucario), and the same dash length (8 frames). That's super good.

That's good mobility in terms of footsies, but that doesn't solve the issue of just... running away.

I always hear this with characters with low mobility, "You can just run away" which is true but in reality not many players are going to just run away with the lead save for ect. who are mostly equated with running away but even then why run away the whole time and force a time out when you can just widen your lead and kill your opponent? While camping/timeout is a legit strategy its a much more mentally draining one, Dabuz once mentioned while reviewing a set of KEN vs Ally at Frostbite that camping does win the set but not the tournament because of the great deal of resources it takes up to do it. Imo suffer much more then in that regard, at least has options to platform camping with his range while the two above don't have answers to it and both are doing well in the meta (although people should actually realize that ryu can do nothing when you have the lead and should exploit that and punish him for overextending). Overall yes, you can run away but from what I've seen the meta is geared towards getting rid of stocks when given the chance and smart aggression.

 

[FullMoon]

I remember when ZeRo made a video about Greninja being some kind of secret counterpick character. It's funny how things change with time.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Lucario has done more than Toon Link lately tho

I think that's mainly because of how much publicity Tsu has gotten as of late, as well as Hyuga being banished to Mexico. You can still see Hyuga playing in Mexican tournaments and Toon Link is looking as crisp as ever. I honestly can't think of a notable Toon Link besides him, so that's probably why the character was kind of forgotten. In an alternate reality where Hyuga was still competing in the states I feel like Toon Link would have much more focus on him.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I honestly can't think of a notable Toon Link besides him, so that's probably why the character was kind of forgotten.

There's also Sigma from Japan, who has wins over Oisiitofu (twice), ikep (thrice), Earth (twice), HIKARU, Fuwa, Umeki, Komorikiri, and Shogun.

 

[|RK|]

Toon Link has always had a stable income of results from multiple TL players while Lucario tends to get one great result from time to time from very few players.

Speaking of Lucario... I think that he will fall in the future once people start fishing kills as early as possible and avoid giving him any extra Aura and rage.

Honestly, I never understood the traditional Lucario playstyle. He wants to get hit, then sort of hit back with powerful moves (Locus does the same with Ryu). But I never really got that - why not try to avoid getting hit while hitting the opponent? Like most characters?

Ultimately you'll get aura anyways. So it kind of frustrates me when I watch Lucario players get decimated the first stock then come back. I feel like fishing for kills (in some cases) will definitely beat that sort of style.

But idk why aura isn't used more as an additional threat (instead of the main threat).

 

[Hippieslayer]

Corrin players should start utilizing the fact that you can combo into DFS from fair. It kills early and when it doesnt the damage output is big. Because of how DFS works with its two hits it can catch airdodges as well. Leo is the one top Corrin I've seen utilizing this. Cosmos seems to prefer stringing conventional aerials together which I think is inferior despite being easier and more reliable. The potential reward from DFS is totally worth it even if just for the dmg and the fear, notwithstanding how early it can kill.