Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[ぱみゅ]

Hyuga has mostly been playing locals and mostly been using Diddy. Oops.


He said he doesn't want to get too serious with his Diddy though.

 

[Nah]

I want to focus on Dtilt again. A very good poke/spacing move. What's notable about this move is that it actually drags opponents inwards a little while hitting them upwards, which makes getting followups very easy.

Dtilt is not a poke. Corrin has no real grounded pokes. It's very good as a combo starter though.

I always hear this with characters with low mobility, "You can just run away" which is true but in reality not many players are going to just run away with the lead save for ect. who are mostly equated with running away but even then why run away the whole time and force a time out when you can just widen your lead and kill your opponent? While camping/timeout is a legit strategy its a much more mentally draining one, Dabuz once mentioned while reviewing a set of KEN vs Ally at Frostbite that camping does win the set but not the tournament because of the great deal of resources it takes up to do it. Imo suffer much more then in that regard, at least has options to platform camping with his range while the two above don't have answers to it and both are doing well in the meta (although people should actually realize that ryu can do nothing when you have the lead and should exploit that and punish him for overextending). Overall yes, you can run away but from what I've seen the meta is geared towards getting rid of stocks when given the chance and smart aggression.

Running away isn't always about going for a timeout. In the case of Corrin, it's more about forcing her to play your game/you setting the pace, as she lacks to ability to force you to approach (which zoners very much want you to do since they are inherently good at ****ting on approaches) and does not seem to be terribly good at approaching herself. When you do that, the opponent is already at a disadvantage. People not choosing to make use of an effective tactic/strategy (or rather, not playing the MU correctly) is their loss and not a real reason to support a character's viability or tier list placement.

Also, regarding this:

And no, Corrin's tools are actually really solid; no, this is not just revolving around Lunge (pin), which a reminder, is outright silly in most MU's

I remember a while ago that you (Laken) said you were going to do some big write up of Corrin side-B and post it here sometime. What is the status on that?

....

I know that half the time I post here it's me disagreeing with some positive thing someone says about Corrin (or Robin) and that at this point I sort of sound like a broken record and everyone's probably tired of it. It's just that if people so adamantly believe that a character I play is truly a high tier character (and the upper half of it at that) then you'd think that it shouldn't be hard to prove it, right? I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy or something, and I don't think I'm being stubborn--if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will admit to it, and I don't pretend to think I'm anything remotely great, but that doesn't mean that I or anyone should be convinced by whatever the **** is the first thing people throw at me.

I just want proper proof is all.

 

[Laken64]

Corrin players should start utilizing the fact that you can combo into DFS from fair. It kills early and when it doesnt the damage output is big. Because of how DFS works with its two hits it can catch airdodges as well. Leo is the one top Corrin I've seen utilizing this. Cosmos seems to prefer stringing conventional aerials together which I think is inferior despite being easier and more reliable. The potential reward from DFS is totally worth it even if just for the dmg and the fear, notwithstanding how early it can kill.

Although Leo is highly skilled, his corrin is sole fundamentals, he knows very little about the character compared to Cosmos or Ryuga who aren't as skilled but they know what works and what not. While fair to DFS is a thing, Leo just does it and hopes it works when it doesn't which was something Vivid criticized about his Corrin and while yes the pay off is big DFS is very laggy and opens up for a punish. Also Ryuga was the first corrin I've seen who used DFS to catch airdodges. And while DFS kills early, Aerial pin tipper is no joke either as Corrin's meta is shifting to find more uses for aerial side b which kills mad early as well which Cosmos has implemented ( and ryuga) and you can see it in Void vs Cosmos as a deadly punish/kill option.

I remember a while ago that you (Laken) said you were going to do some big write up of Corrin side-B and post it here sometime. What is the status on that?

I was just thinking about that this morning lol, I've been busy irl (and got my first job yay) but I can probably finish it sometime this week (Thursday at the earliest ???) I just need to ask for some top lv opinions from Frozen and maybe Vivid and im golden.

 

[blackghost]

Well his Bayo does work well for him in Japan for sure. He seems to have less confidence in his Bayo over in the West.
Besides I dont know what got into Charliedaking at ARMS Saga necuase he was just playing extremely well regardless and got quite a few uspesr. He also beat NAKAT, 3-0'd Kameme and almost reverse 3-0'd ZeRo. So It was not like Aba just completely dropping the ball

the thing is players like 9b get results in japan with bayo but never have here either. japan struggles with her. outside of komokiri what other elite japanese player has a good record against her?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well this just happened at

the thing is players like 9b get results in japan with bayo but never have here either. japan struggles with her. outside of komokiri what other elite japanese player has a good record against her?

KEN has good records vs Bayo, his only loss to one recently I think was to Salem at Nairo Saga.

Honestly, Salem can be considered the games Sonic Slayer with his record vs the hedgehog. I do not think Salem has ever lost a set to a Sonic ...ever

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Doc bottom 5 is both sad but also kind of makes sense. Sad in the sense that when you look at his tools and stuff, he's not actually a bad character (which is kind of a testament to how balanced this game is), but I'd imagine top players have more of the opinion of "why use Doc when there's Mario?", which in all honesty, is a fair argument.

No, he's a bad character. Looking at good tools in a vacuum is great and all, but most characters have good moves when you look at just them. And then we also have to take into account the matter of do these good moves make up for this character's weaknesses, and the answer for Doc is a resounding no. His good tools allow him to have a somewhat decent punish game, but his mobility makes his neutral somewhat lacking and his disadvantage, especially off stage, horrible. They'd have to give him Ganondorf levels of percent dealing and a hoo hah to compensate for that.
Even then it probably still wouldn't be enough.

 

[TDK]

CFL Smackdown 134 (83 Entrants) (Florida)

1st: Dyr
2nd: Utopian Ray
3rd: Static Manny
4th: Ewok

 

[MrGameguycolor]

No, he's a bad character. Looking at good tools in a vacuum is great and all, but most characters have good moves when you look at just them. And then we also have to take into account the matter of do these good moves make up for this character's weaknesses, and the answer for Doc is a resounding no. His good tools allow him to have a somewhat decent punish game, but his mobility makes his neutral somewhat lacking and his disadvantage, especially off stage, horrible. They'd have to give him Ganondorf levels of percent dealing and a hoo hah to compensate for that.
Even then it probably still wouldn't be enough.

That's more over simplifying his weakness if anything.
Slow mobility doesn't equal a lacking neutral if your moves can cover your opponents options, just look at Melee Peach.
Most Docs agree at least half his moveset is more then viable (Jab, all tilts, all smashes, nair, uair, bair, cape, up-b, tornado) thanks to sharing Mario's god-like frame data, combine that with his top 5 out of shield game with "Ganondorf levels of percent" and his punishing ability overall is just somewhat decent to you?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doctor Mario has heavy tier damage for his size, weight class, and frame data. If you look at it in relatives anyways. He also doesn't really need to do as much as Ganon when he has a viable kill confirm out of throw lol. The only thing undertuned about Doc is his run speed. Everything else checks out, his air speed is just fine, accel is just fine, frame data is more than fine, kill power is also more than fine. He has a hoo hah against a ton of strong characters (D-Throw > Fair on fastfallers) assuming you don't completely suck chunks at reactable DI following.

Educated opinions about Dr. Mario are about as common as the amount of people that use him in tournament, however, so I am not surprised whenever I read something about the character that just makes me rattle my head. You get numb to it because it exists in such insane presence.

PS he's a better character than Falco ever will be without major changes. I'd even argue for him over Bowser Jr, probably. But 100% certain he's not total garbage like Falco is. Hoo man, Falco....

 

[Appledees]

Doc to me will always be character that will be mid tier and always mid tier (probably lower end at very worst). He's not really bad/mediocre to the degree of some low/bottom tier characters are (in fact he has some tools that even some mid tiers would dream to have) and he's not good enough to even go past the higher portion of mid tier.

He'll stay in the perception of low/bottom tier to the main public cause no one really plays him and does well with him along with people saying that he's just "bad Mario"

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc to me will always be character that will be mid tier and always mid tier (probably lower end at very worst). He's not really bad/mediocre to the degree of some low/bottom tier characters are (in fact he has some tools that even some mid tiers would dream to have) and he's not good enough to even go past the higher portion of mid tier.

He'll stay in the perception of low/bottom tier to the main public cause no one really plays him and does well with him along with people saying that he's just "bad Mario"

I respect the opinion but I believe he is a low tier character. Not really what I'd call bottom however, but this is, after all, just me. I don't think he's super garbage or bad, nor do I think it is an exaggeration to say that about 75% of his kit is better Mario moves (probably more like 85%).

His niche is being remarkably functional in what he actually does relative to public perception however.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

He'll stay in the perception of low/bottom tier to the main public cause no one really plays him and does well with him along with people saying that he's just "bad Mario"

Exactly, honestly we're all spoiled by how amazing Mario is.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I respect the opinion but I believe he is a low tier character. Not really what I'd call bottom however, but this is, after all, just me. I don't think he's super garbage or bad, nor do I think it is an exaggeration to say that about 75% of his kit is better Mario moves (probably more like 85%).

His niche is being remarkably functional in what he actually does relative to public perception however.

This, This so much. Doctor Mario is such a cohesive & straight-forward character: A Brawler with everything good about Brawlers ( Explosive & consistent advantage state in nearly all areas through a set of moves that can possibly lead into others, along with some options to punish the basic answers your opponent would be tempted to pick, a fair amount of non commital moves that go along a bait & punish playstyle that Doc pulls off quite efficiently despite his lack of mobility, most notably thanks to his low SH re-enforcing the ability to throw out moves & move along, perhaps the most complete out of shield game in the entire game, the best anti zoning tool in the game in SH Cape that also serves as momentum reversal for the sake of mixing up both your movement & landings, along with the fact that some of Doc's moves can already allow him to beat certain projectiles ) but also nearly everything bad about Brawlers ( Mid Range game is rather bad & the rare times you'll ever be winning these kind of battles is because your opponent allowed you to get a little too close, you got some kind of read or approached in a way they did not expect OR Doc's frame data beating the opponent's moves. Either way, most characters, especially those with the disjoints, will be giving Doctor Mario a tough time in this precise area. Long Range game is also not exactly stellar, or rather, it's pretty bad: Pills can't force approaches all that well, and the rest of Doc's moveset simply isn't long range/zoning based. As i've mentionned before though, the saving grace of Cape and its consistency mitigate this issue and along the outrewarding in advantage state that goes in Doc vs Zoners matchup, these usually belong in the better matchups for Doc )

I would also like to come back on the whole disadvantage state talk, which is my main point of disagreement, althrough i can totally understand those who would be tempted to believe that Doc has a below average disadvantage. As you already know, Doc possesses 2 Frame 3 moves in his arsenal, being Nair & UpB, along with a nice weight/float combo that allow him to not be prone to combos & has among the better overextension punishes out there, although depending on the character, it could be more or less efficient. I would have been tempted to call Doc's landing bad, and i still wouldn't say it's good, moreso against mobile characters, but it has been getting better and is filled with enough options to give most of the character a decently hard time punishing Doc's landing: the momentum reversal with wavebounce cape, along with the good frame data which plays an important role in the offensive/punishes options Doc may have out of an airdodge, and the aggressive landing options makes for a varied enough threat. Finally, Doc's recovery. I'll be honest, i won't argue that it's good, or even that's it's not one of the worse in the game, rather, i would just like to remind that Smash 4 isn't Melee or Brawl: the potency of an airdodge into UpB, as dumb as it may sound, is good enough for most situations. I'm not saying you won't get edgeguarded, i'm saying that, like most characters, you shouldn't get edgeguarded too often. If you do, it's still usually your fault. Doc is also decent enough at avoiding constant ledgeguarding, through the potency of his SH AD options ( either Nair or UpB after are usually the most commonly seen ) , said potency also adds an option that should definitly not be slept on when it comes to approaching.

So what have we learned? I would love to say nothing, because honestly, what i've been going through is rather basic stuff: a reminder of the options this character has in order to achieve victory over the opponent, and with that in mind, i wouldn't say it's very hard to get a simple idea of what his matchups look like: Disjoints are his hardest matchups, while a majority of the Brawlers & Zoners? Doc fares decent enough against, minus a few exception for specific reasons, because the neutral becomes evenly-matched and while Doc has to fight characters with perhaps more options through their mobility or some of their moves' consistency, the fact that Doc nearly outrewards most characters on trades, that his advantage state is consistent enough to only need a couple of strikes & a bit of neutral play before becoming threatening to the opponent's stock, grants him some good to decent matchups against characters above him, like Mario, Lucario, Fox or Villager. On the other hand, struggles can be seen against characters near him or even below, with characters like Palutena or Dedede being capable to fight back or even beat Doc through some of their good options.

Tl;Dr Doc is a pretty straight-forward slow but powerful brawler with everything you can expect from a brawler, whether it's good or bad. His spot on a tier list is dependant on how much you value counterpick characters, and how highly you think of a character who's most likely needy of a secondary to get past disjoints ( & Sonic ) OR could potentially do some damage given the right bracket ( Despite me mentionned disjoints being annoying for Doc, it's an advice, not a necessity: Most of his matchups against these characters are perfectly doable, and we've seen upsets of Docs against characters who possesses disjoints, such as Mewtwo with B7Games' 2-0 over Abadango, or 2ManyCooks' win over Mr.E )
Either way, given the development of all the characters surrounding Doc and the fact that we do need characters in the Low Tier: Yes, Doc's probably around the low tier as of right now, because with his pathetic representation ( I believe there are more recorded sets of MII GUNNER than of Dr.Mario, i might be wrong though, but that speaks volumes about Doc's representation in tournament ) hasn't allowed him to show all the potential improvements & gained consistency that make him a valuable character. However, he remains an interesting pick for certain characters: the heavy grapplers for example, could benefit from a character with a much better Fox matchup with a neutral that doesn't feel too alien to them ( i.e: A few options used in different ways, precise movement along with it as a means of baiting the opponent into a wanted move, the presence of a kill confirm, and for Bowser/Charizard, the presence of an excellent out of shield game )

 

[Bowserboy3]

My stance on Doc is this;

In short, Doc is "bad" because Mario exists. It's a sad reality, but it's undeniably true.

Doc isn't a very bad character in general; I mean, most of his tools are exactly the same as Mario's, with extremely minor differences. However, pretty much everything Doc does, Mario can do better.

Doc's damage output is slightly better than Mario's, but Mario's combo game is much better, and thus, allows him to get in general more damage on hit conversion.

Doc's neutral game isn't actually too bad, again, with it being essentially Mario's. However, Mario's better movement physics just give Mario a better time in neutral in terms of general approaching and baiting opponents with Bairs etc.

Doc's recovery isn't as bad as people like to make it out to be. By no means the best, but it's certainly not bad. Dr Tornado is incredibly easy to mash (in contrast to Luigi's) and doesn't even require a jump to gain height if you suck at mashing (you can use your double jump before using Luigi's for example if you suck at mashing). Just because Super Jump Punch doesn't go quite as high as Mario's, it still goes an average distance, and it's ledge snap is almost Marth and Lucina level good. Sure, it's easy enough to drop off stage to try and edgeguard Doc, but this is an issue Mario has as well. When you tie in the fact that Mario's air speed is better and Super Jump Punch goes further, Mario's recovery on the whole is sadly, still better than Doc's, because even if he gets hit off stage, he stands a higher chance at getting back to the stage.

Even then, when you stop and consider Doc has a semi-viable kill confirm from a throw, you can then argue that Mario has a footstool kill combo from the same throw, one that can KO earlier too.

The fact that Doc's best players have started using Mario for the simple reason that Mario is better (2ManyCooks outright said this was the reason he dropped Doc) also kind of backs up this point. Tie all this into a neat package and you've got a decent character that kind of struggles to shine because there's a character that does everything he does, but better. It doesn't surprise me that Doc often falls in player perception, for this reason alone. He's that decent character that is seen as bad because he struggles to stand out. He's got in general better tools than many of the characters he's lumped with, but is lumped with them in the first place because Mario is better.

I love Doc, I really do (used him a fair bit in Melee at one point, and in the initial release of 3DS; plus his pink skin with the purple boots is cleeeeeeeeean), but goddamn Mario is literally Doc: The Upgrade.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

What is it that you guys think is keeping Roy down? I have my own opinions as a Roy main myself, but it's always good to get another perspective. I honestly thought he'd be on the rise, but as time is showing me, that really doesn't seem to be true despite Ryo, Hyper, and Captain Levi playing a pretty mean Roy on a level I'll almost certainly never reach.

Personally, I think it's his kill power and his disadvantage state. Quick thoughts on each.

-Kill power. Comparing Roy's sweet spotted attacks with Marths, they all kill later. Ftilt, Fsmash, Fair, Bair. I'm not sure about their uptilts and I'm too lazy to check, but I know all the other moves kill later. I'm not counting his Uair because the move is clearly designed to have a very different use from Marth's and having it as a low knockback juggling/landing option is fine. His kill throw is also weaker than Marth's. Roy can build % very well, his combo game is really good, but you still have to get a hard read to get a kill. Roy doesn't have any options to kill outside of reads, which seems to be a pig part of what separates a good character from a great one in this game. Many times I'll have an opponent at quite a high % and if I can't edgeguard them, I pretty much need them to screw up and read a roll in so I can sweet spot one of my tilts to kill them. Not to mention Roy doesn't have a shield breaker, which is also great for netting kills obviously. My point is, I know the character can dish out plenty of damage, but having to rely on hard reads and edgeguarding alone to get stocks is a definite downside.

-Disadvantage state and approaching. Call me a scrub, but I have a VERY hard time with characters like Cloud/Mewtwo who can force you to approach and keep you out. Through all the resources I have looked into to improve my game as Roy, nobody else seems to really have a secret for this either. A lot of the time your best bet is to try to tomohawk, go for spaced aerials which if they hit accomplish very little with Roy, or go for aerials that land behind the opponent which can easily get stuffed out by a lot of different uptilts or simply moving away. When you're ahead of the game and have the opponent scared, it's not so bad to extend the lead. But when you're behind you seem to get stuck, again, relying on hoping you can make some kind of hard read to get back in the game. Since you're a fast faller and you need to be close to get reward from hard reads, messing this up can lead to a really brutal punish.

A few months ago I definitely thought Roy would be on the rise, but like I said, time certainly is changing my mind. He's fast as hell, has great combos, and is a solid middle weight with a lot of disjoints. But it just doesn't seem like it's enough.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Roy has an incredibly strong ground based neutral, a good low % combo game, and some good mixups at higher %s with dtilt, jab, and grab. His disadvantage is obviously trash, not really anything you can say about it other than that.

My guess as to why he doesn't have very good results is because he just doesn't do well enough against popular characters and top/high tiers (save ZSS, Lucario, and Mario) for him to be a strong main and there are better counterpick characters like DK, Falcon, and MK. The same argument could be made for a lot of the "super underrated characters" like Doc, Mac, Zard, ROB, etc.

 

[Amadeus9]

My stance on Doc is this;

In short, Doc is "bad" because Mario exists. It's a sad reality, but it's undeniably true.

Doc isn't a very bad character in general; I mean, most of his tools are exactly the same as Mario's, with extremely minor differences. However, pretty much everything Doc does, Mario can do better.

Doc's damage output is slightly better than Mario's, but Mario's combo game is much better, and thus, allows him to get in general more damage on hit conversion.

Doc's neutral game isn't actually too bad, again, with it being essentially Mario's. However, Mario's better movement physics just give Mario a better time in neutral in terms of approaching and baiting opponents with Bairs etc.

Doc's recovery isn't as bad as people like to make it out to be. Dr Tornado is incredibly easy to mash (in contrast to Luigi's) and doesn't even require a jump to gain height if you suck at mashing (you can use your double jump before using Luigi's for example if you suck at mashing). Just because Super Jump Punch doesn't go quite as high as Mario's, it still goes an average distance, and it's ledge snap is almost Marth and Lucina level good. Sure, it's easy enough to drop off stage to try and edgeguard Doc, but this is an issue Mario has as well. When you tie in the fact that Mario's air speed is better and Super Jump Punch goes further, Mario's recovery on the whole is sadly, still better than Doc's, because even if he gets hit off stage, he stands a higher chance at getting back to the stage.

Even then, when you stop and consider Doc has a semi-viable kill confirm from a throw, you can then argue that Mario has a footstool kill combo from the same throw, one that can KO earlier too.

The fact that Doc's best players have started using Mario for the simple reason that Mario is better (2ManyCooks outright said this was the reason he dropped Doc) also kind of backs up this point. Tie all this into a neat package and you've got a decent character that kind of struggles to shine because there's a character that does everything he does, but better. It doesn't surprise me that Doc often falls in player perception, for this reason alone. He's that decent character that is seen as bad because he struggles to stand out. He's got in general better tools than many of the characters he's lumped with, but is lumped with them in the first place because Mario is better.

I love Doc, I really do (used him a fair bit in Melee at one point, and in the initial release of 3DS; plus his pink skin with the purple boots is cleeeeeeeeean), but goddamn Mario is literally Doc: The Upgrade.

Doc isn't bad because Mario is good. That's not how it works. Doc is bad because Doc is bad.

Rubs me the wrong way. Lucina isn't bad because Marth is good. Lucina is good, too; but each character should stand on their own merit. If Doc was good enough to be mainable at high level, he would be. We see people maining characters like duck hunt, falco (!) at high/top level with success.

I'm not saying be's unviable. BUT please seperate the two characters in your head please. Different css different character. esp. where the two actually play in completely different ways from each other... cant even say that for marth/lucina

 

[Bowserboy3]

Doc isn't bad because Mario is good. That's not how it works. Doc is bad because Doc is bad.

Rubs me the wrong way. Lucina isn't bad because Marth is good. Lucina is good, too; but each character should stand on their own merit. If Doc was good enough to be mainable at high level, he would be. We see people maining characters like duck hunt, falco (!) at high/top level with success.

I'm not saying be's unviable. BUT please seperate the two characters in your head please. Different css different character. esp. where the two actually play in completely different ways from each other... cant even say that for marth/lucina

I struggle to see how a character that is almost a copy of Mario is THAT much worse than him. The changes are noticeable but don't have that huge an effect on him.

What I am saying is that, nobody uses Doc nowadays because he simply struggles to stand out. Doesn't necessarily make the character bad; he can still have tools and options that trump other lower ranked characters, but people choose not to use him because there are better options, which in turn leaves him underdeveloped and lacking in results, which has the domino effect of shifting public opinion into thinking he's worse than he actually is (admittedly, this is fair enough; if a character isn't getting used too much, then it makes sense for them to drop. My point is there is a point where that ends and you have to look at what the characters actually do as well).

I go back to 2ManyCooks again; prime example.

It's a bit like how Falcon dropped off until the past 3 months or so. People were insistent he was mid tier (as opposed to the high tier he currently is), simply because he'd not been being used. Now, I'm not saying Doc could be mid tier or anything like that, but merely alluding to how a character can drop based on the fact they simply don't get used. We're kind of seeing it right now with Greninja.

I go back to 2ManyCooks again; prime example.

And using Marth and Lucina as a contrasting example isn't great either; they are much more similar than Mario and Doc are. While Doc and Mario are very similar, their differences are noticeable enough to see a clear better character. This isn't exactly the case with Marth and Lucina.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Dr. Mario is significantly underrated by many, mainly because he's so similar to Mario. Imagine if Mario were bottom tier in this game, then more people would likely play Dr. Mario and people might perceive him for the mid tier that he likely is. There is little reason to use Dr. Mario at a top level since he's so similar to Mario and Mario is generally better. This is different from Lucina - Marth, where some people actually argue that Lucina is better than Marth, and/or that she has other significant advantages (such as being more consistent and/or easier to play than Marth). Dark Pit is almost an exact clone of Pit, so few people argue against him being right next to Pit.

Dr. Mario is not "Dark Mario". He's different enough, and is in general significantly weaker than Mario. If someone likes Dr. Mario, then chances are they will also like Mario, and if they're serious about getting results they'd probably play Mario instead. Even then I don't think Dr. Mario is a bad character. It's hard to say where exactly he should be, but I don't think he's a bottom 10 character, and certainly not bottom 5.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Throughout my post, the informations i've shared about Dr.Mario secretly had the purpose of leading into a discussion about the character itself, his strengths & his issues. But because of how most people are unable to focus about a semi clone character's tools as a means to analyse the competitive value of said character without comparing the character to the one he's based out of, i've been actively trying to avoid discussions around Doc for this reason because i'd honestly say Doc discussions with most people doesn't have a whole lot of substance: Doc is NOT ANALYZED, he's compared as a means of pseudo-analyzing ( Doc is bad because reasons that are usually not detailled enough VS Doc is not that bad because he possesses some of the tools that have already been proven to be among the best because Mario has these tools, sometimes even worse )

One last thing i'd like to mention is about Doc's representation and why Lucina is used and not Doc. As dumb as it may sound, Lucina has a certain appeal that can lead into a certain amount of smashers actually trying her, because she appeals to a certain demographic, and this can earn her at least the benefit of being tried, which does OH SO MUCH wonders for her development and representation. Doc on the other hand appeals to like, nearly nobody lol. Melee Doc fans could try the character, but this already small community may be turned off by the lack of mobility and wouldn't be willing to go in depth with the character and find that he can be a powerhouse, because it's simpler to just go Mario.

Anyway, enough Doc discussion for me. There's another character that has been catching my attention as i watched sets of the recent events: Wario. With Gluttony's movement reminding me a lot of Ally's in his set against Cyve, and the efficiency of a simple ground game with just good movement and a respectable poke ( DownTilt ) along with the good aerial game & fast mixups that Wario has in store, i thought to myself: " Damn, Wario's neutral game is a little bit better than i thought "
The same kind of conclusion can be said about advantage state, where Gluttony is able to capitalize off of little mistakes his opponents do very well. So overall, i thought pretty highly of Wario for a bit. Then, i was reminded that Wario's matchups aren't exactly the best out there, but i'd think that with both the clutch factor that Wario has & that allowed heavy grapplers to occasionally beat some of their dreaded matchups, along with the work & development of counterplay specific to a character that we've seen in communities such as Duck Hunt's, Wario could probably stomach it just fine and, on an inconsistent basis, maybe do some big damage at a major. Would you agree & say that Wario has the potential to do some big damage in major? If not, what's the main issue that you'd say holds back Wario from doing so?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Doctor Mario has heavy tier damage for his size, weight class, and frame data. If you look at it in relatives anyways. He also doesn't really need to do as much as Ganon when he has a viable kill confirm out of throw lol. The only thing undertuned about Doc is his run speed. Everything else checks out, his air speed is just fine, accel is just fine, frame data is more than fine, kill power is also more than fine. He has a hoo hah against a ton of strong characters (D-Throw > Fair on fastfallers) assuming you don't completely suck chunks at reactable DI following.

Educated opinions about Dr. Mario are about as common as the amount of people that use him in tournament, however, so I am not surprised whenever I read something about the character that just makes me rattle my head. You get numb to it because it exists in such insane presence.

PS he's a better character than Falco ever will be without major changes. I'd even argue for him over Bowser Jr, probably. But 100% certain he's not total garbage like Falco is. Hoo man, Falco....

Falco is bad brah idk if he's worse than doc tho. I can rant and rave about that character when im not at work and when im motivated about the character lol.

 

[Krysco]

In regards to Roy, unless I'm mistaken, he can confirm a tipper uair on a grounded opponent into a base bair at high percents for a kill. Izaw's Art of Roy video also showed that if you use the diagonals on the c stick to fast fall a nair, you can confirm a first hit nair into an usmash. Not sure how much di screws with either of those. There's also the known jab to Blazer though both options can be di'ed.

2 less guaranteed options are dtilts at higher percents to cause the untechable spin and I know you can at least get a dash attack from that. Not sure if an fsmash or usmash are possible. The other is landing a fastfall tipper uair on an aerial opponent. You end up on the ground faster than them, reset their air speed and cancel whatever action they may have been doing. Doesn't guarantee into anything but it puts you into a very advantageous position unless they have a Flip Jump-esque move. I know FG doesn't mean much nor do matches against my sparring buddy I'd imagine but in both cases, I've gotten ff tipper uairs to fsmash for kills before.

That being said, I do find Roy to generally have a hard time killing, especially in the air. Nair and uair don't kill. Dair only does off stage, takes forever to end and it's hitbox is garbage. Fair only does when edgeguarding. Flare Blade only kills if charged, DED doesn't kill and aerial Blazer can only kill if it stage spikes. If Counter can kill, it's only when countering something powerful like a Bowser bair. Never seen it myself though. Bair is the only consistent killing option in the air, it requires being sweetspotted, can't be used twice in a sh due to faf and turning Roy around and if Roy gets hit at all, he turns around.

As for disadvantage, the only real mixups he has are breversing and wavebouncing Flare Blade and DED, namely the latter since it's less of a commitment (faf of 42 compared to 45).

As for Doc, I'm likely just echoing what others have said but this post took me 2 breaks to make. Doc shouldn't really be low just because Mario is top tier. That same logic was used for Lucina for so long, looking at what Marth could do and just saying 'Lucina can't do that!' without looking at what she could do. Doc could very well be low tier and the only relevance Mario has to that is people picking him over Doc but that goes for every character. End of the day, someone has to be low tier. Roy could even stay there and I can admit that as someone who's still optimistic about the character.

 

[ARISTOS]

is decent and I think if he'd have come out at the beginning of the game instead of in the middle we'd be able to capture a more holistic picture of him.

His neutral of the ground is very good but one really big problem he has is that once he's jumped he's committed to that action. Unlike Marth and Cloud, he can't weave in and out as needed, and unlike Ike and Robin, his sword does not command the necessary presence to threaten SH aerial approaches or approach in that manner. In a game where mixing up aerial timings and attacks are crucial, this is not a great thing to have.

I remember Shaya also talking about Roy's tendency to need rage on his side to kill, given that a couple key moves are undertuned. IMO Roy's bair should be way stronger than it currently is given it's rather lackluster hitboxes and frame data. That could make Roy's life a ton easier.

Roy's Double Edge Dance can kill, if you make the third hit an upward hit and the fourth hit a forward hit it's a strong kill option.

DED is a great move in general

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Roy's Double Edge Dance can kill, if you make the third hit an upward hit and the fourth hit a forward hit it's a strong kill option.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Gl actually getting that to kill. DED kills comes once every blue moon unlike DB and thier delays into it and the 5 frame input assist that marcina got couple of patches ago.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I know it's not practical to hit people with and almost never happens, but it would bother me for someone to spread misinformation about the character in this thread and have it not be corrected. DED can indeed be a decent kill move if you manage to hit with it. That's all.

 

[Krysco]

My remark on DED not killing was to focus on Roy's lack of ability to kill while airborne. I was entirely unaware of DED being able to kill at all. Is the percent requirement incredibly high or does it require being the base or something? I don't tend to go for the move at high percents anyways since it's easy to fall out of from my experience.

 

[Gamegenie222]

My remark on DED not killing was to focus on Roy's lack of ability to kill while airborne. I was entirely unaware of DED being able to kill at all. Is the percent requirement incredibly high or does it require being the base or something? I don't tend to go for the move at high percents anyways since it's easy to fall out of from my experience.

Its a combination of it but in my experience weaker bkb and the stituaton rarely coming up cause one of the previous moves pushes opponent away too far of last hit will whiff.

 

[Aaron1997]

XenoSeventy (NYC) (75 entrants)

1.Sinji
2. Frozen
3. John Numbers
4. Dekillsage

 

[Emblem Lord]

This Doc to Mario comparison is exactly the opposite of the arguments I saw when I was 16 years old for Melee when Doc was high tier and Mario was mid tier.

Guess what? It's gonna end the same way just switch the names around.

Doc is ok. But guess what? The question is....is he worth playing over Mario?

The answer is painfully obvious.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I did some testing in training mode with Roy's double edge dance. I couldn't get an exact kill percent with it because Double Edge Dance is very inconsistent. I used Mario, Final Destination, and attacked him from the point he spawns at when you hit Reset, so not exactly at the ledge, but closeish to it. The earliest I could get Double Edge Dance to kill him was at 93%. It's definitely more important to sweet spot the last hit than it is to hit the entire combo for damage. When I was killing at 93% I was missing the first and second hit of the attack entirely, since I started a bit of distance away from Mario.

Ftilt kills from the exact same position at 108%, so an optimal Double Edge Dance can kill a little over 10% sooner than Ftilt. Until the move is further explored however, this is obviously not practical due to the very nature of the move kind of locking you into executing the first three hits of the combo because you're able to use the fourth, actually hitting with that sweet spotted fourth hit seems pretty much out of your control as a player. It is absolutely banking on the opponent screwing up somehow to get hit by it since I don't think Double Edge Dance would link into that hit at that percent factoring in DI.

 

[Krysco]

Huh. Had no idea the fourth forward hit was that powerful. Did you have a second controller to make Mario DI optimally? Also gotta keep in mind tha there's no rage in training so the fourth forward could ko even sooner at the cost of being even less likely to land it after any of the previous hits. Sounds a bit similar to one of the issues the Marcina custom Heavy DB or whatever it's called has though not as extreme.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Is there a reason why Roy players would not or rarely use Double-edged Dance?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Roy's Double Edge Dance is not weak. It can kill and can be one of his safest killing options.

It has pretty much the same power as Marth's Dancing Blade.

The main difference is:

- it's sweetspot (the hilt) is very slightly weaker than Marth's sweetspot (the tipper), because all the hits deal 1% less damage. However, Roy's sourspots have angles that either don't launch the opponent too far out of sweetspot range for the next hit, or outright drag the opponents into the sweetspot range, which makes hitting the sweetspot on the last hit more than possible.

On average, Marth's Dancing Blade (4th neutral swing) can KO around the ledge (sweetspotted) at around 90%. Roy's Double Edge Dance will be KO'ing at around 100% in the same circumstances.

Lucina's Dancing Blade gets on average, more overall damage than Marth and Roy's variants, though hers will KO a bit later in general, anywhere around 110%. However, it can sometimes fail to link at high percents (Marths weaker sourspots help his connect, and Roy's sourspots as explained above also help).

In general, think of them like this:

• Marth's is the one that can KO the earliest. It also has setups into a tipper 4th hit.
• Roy's KO's slightly later than Marth's, but has properties to help it connect in most cases, easier.
• Lucina's KO's a tiny bit later than them all, and can struggle to connect when it can KO, but often deals more damage per use.

All three of them are incredible tools, and are some of the best they possess; ones that the player SHOULD be using, and if you aren't, you're doing something wrong.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This Doc to Mario comparison is exactly the opposite of the arguments I saw when I was 16 years old for Melee when Doc was high tier and Mario was mid tier.

Guess what? It's gonna end the same way just switch the names around.

Doc is ok. But guess what? The question is....is he worth playing over Mario?

The answer is painfully obvious.

Yes.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-8-evo-2017.448924/

Thread for EVO 2017 is up!

 

[EnGarde]

On Roy's DED, in order to connect it properly at higher percents, you should use the Olé Blade variant. Sourspot DED 1, intentionally whiff DED 2, and you'll connect DED 3 and 4.

Turn on subtitles for this video, that's where the descriptions of what's going on are.

Also, as for Roy killing, consider Roy's dthrow 50/50's.

The number of players pushing Roy in bracket are pretty small, and we don't travel very much. Roy is a very challenging character to play. A few of his moves have weird design choices, but all of them put in work.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Fatality's Bayonetta video.

 

[The-Technique]

Fatality's Bayonetta video.

Ugh, wish he'd stop calling Heelslide "Witch Twist on the ground" very confusing.

 

[TDK]

Summer School (67 Entrants) (Las Vegas)

1st: Kameme
2nd: KEN
3rd: Mistake
4th: Kirihara
5th: Edge
5th: Vash
7th: JK
7th: ikep

~~~~

9th: Tsu-
9th: Nietono
13th: Earth
17th: Ally

Mistake has the highest damage per hit of any Bayo, and some of the best movement. Can't wait to see him tomorrow.