Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Vyrnx]

Spoiler: PGRv3 Top 10

10. Abadango
9. Mr. R
8. Komorikiri
7. CaptainZack
6. Larry Lurr
5. Ally
4. Dabuz
3. Nairo
2. MKLeo
1. ZeRo

lmao, ZeRo's record vs the top 10...

 

[Nu~]

Literally everyone in the top 10 has a different main.

God I love this game lol.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Literally everyone in the top 10 has a different main.

God I love this game lol.

Well Komo and MKLeo both co-main Cloud. So he is the exception

 

[ARGHETH]

lmao, ZeRo's record vs the top 10...

Apparently, he has 16 total set losses this year.
(Ally x3, Kirihara x2, Nairo, Mr.R, Tweek, Fatality, Anti, Tsu-, falln, Ned, Brood, Xzax, and Luhtie)
Stolen from Reddit

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Seriously be glad nintendo didnt go the crapcom method of "our game isnt being particularly well received... hmm screw it, nuke it all down" and actually balanced the game in a meaningful way. Without making absolutely everyone upset

Can I get an example?

For the prepatch conversation, does anyone remember fox's jab 1-2 repetition into up smash and it got patched out? I'm a little suprised nobody mentioned it yet.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Tetra_76/status/883431253118210048


Tetra has posted a top 100 players who were ranked X factored wise. Some players are not on here because they were not in the voting so yeah

 

[TDK]

Here are the characters ZeRo's lost to this season:







Some things to note:
- That's 9 different characters, out of 16 total losses from 11 different players.
- Mario, Rosa, ZSS, and Cloud were the only characters to beat ZeRo more than once, and from multiple people.
- ZeRo's losses to Cloud (twice), Duck Hunt, Fox, and DK were not from the best players of those characters. Of these, ZeRo hasn't played the best Duck Hunt or DK this season. That'd be interesting.
- Isn't ZSS supposed to be a good matchup for Diddy? Same with Cloud but less so?

 

[Pyrover]

To try to change the subject, I learned a lot about Wario when I asked about what's going on with that character when I asked you guys about him last week. What about Wii Fit Trainer? What's going on with that character? Do you think they will be moving up or down in the next tier list? Have any super good Wii Fit mains broken out recently? Any new tech or anything?

Very little has changed in her meta as of late. I do however, believe we'll see her higher on the next tier list with recent trends. John Numbers still does well and got second at something big recently. Captain Zack has also been pulling her out a bit more often as a counter pick.

Wii Fit kills me because she is criminally underrated due entirely to player aversion. She's not a top tier, but she has a learning curve like one, and she's not a popular character either, so very few players really bother to learn her. She's too low on the tier list as a direct result of this.

Anyways, to talk about her a little, Fitsy has a solid projectile game that most characters can't beat from across the stage, a phenomenal offstage game (only beaten by MK and Bayo), some highly damaging combos, solid mobility, and the blessing that is Deep Breathing. She's held back by low range, wonky matchups against short characters, and a lack of viable approach options.

Overall her matchup spread in top tier ain't that bad. She goes even with characters like Marth, Mario, Bayo, ZSS, and Ryu. Fox is a weird matchup to describe, and the others are mostly slight losses. She beats most zoning characters effectively, but lots of random characters like Ness and Kirby stomp her with superior CQC. The primary things determine her matchups are if the opponent out-buttons her, can handle her ledge game, and can stuff her short hop approaches. That last one is important, because a landing nair can easily convert into 50%.

Her only real meta advancements as of late are improving on soccer ball tricks and the revelation that short hop dair autocancels. The Wii Fit boards have some posts about her fair lock setups, but she struggles to get in a good position to start them.

Wii Fit's a very strong mid tier, maybe even high tier if she had more reliable representation. But she lacks a good way to start her game and people don't like to pick her up.

 

[Illuminose]

- Isn't ZSS supposed to be a good matchup for Diddy? Same with Cloud but less so?

Cloud is an even MU for Diddy, and you should also realize that ZeRo's record against Cloud is insane. He's only lost to Cloud twice despite playing MKLeo, komorikiri, Tweek, Mr.R, and Ned numerous times this year. That's a testament to ZeRo's skill and is nothing short of impressive.

ZSS is still a very strong (6-4) MU for Diddy. ZeRo's two losses to ZSS players this year pale in comparison to his overall record, as well, which includes routinely bopping Nairo and solidly dispatching Marss when they played.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

What's wrong with his fast fall?

Zard's fast fall is among the worst of the smashers (43rd if I remember correctly out of 50) by itself that isn't a big deal. However, combine this with the second worst traction (only Luigi's is worse), and awful air speed (I think only Little Mac is worse and even then I'm not sure) and you have a character that is severely lacking in aerial fundamentals (which is odd considering in the pokemon universe zard is a FLYING TYPE!) and being completely unable to shield punish! That's what made zard bottom of the barrel before he got a buff to his aerials, jab, and grab moves to make him a touch more viable. Any one of the above weaknesses is excusable for balances' sake but all three severely limit zard's ability to function except in some extremely niche situations (like being a cp for Cloud)

 

[Nemesis561]

Ugh tbh I've played charizard before the patches and was actually winning matches and tourneys in tourney mode before the patches (and DLC) came out.
I think zard could use another balance patch to give him an actual FF or a proper grab combo kill confirm, his uthrow doesn't do much when he can't get an aerial hit in properly because of ****ty mix-up potential and crap air mobility. When Bowser and DK got koo-pa and hoo-hah their viability skyrocketed! Zard needs one too.

Giving characters hoo hahs as a way to buff them is pretty lazy imo, charizard could be significantly buffed in a number of ways without a braindead hoo hah. Although he is pretty good as is, could be better though obviously.

Also you do know winning a tourney in tourney mode means absolutely nothing right? Like less than zero lmao

Very little has changed in her meta as of late. I do however, believe we'll see her higher on the next tier list with recent trends. John Numbers still does well and got second at something big recently. Captain Zack has also been pulling her out a bit more often as a counter pick.

Wii Fit kills me because she is criminally underrated due entirely to player aversion. She's not a top tier, but she has a learning curve like one, and she's not a popular character either, so very few players really bother to learn her. She's too low on the tier list as a direct result of this.

Anyways, to talk about her a little, Fitsy has a solid projectile game that most characters can't beat from across the stage, a phenomenal offstage game (only beaten by MK and Bayo), some highly damaging combos, solid mobility, and the blessing that is Deep Breathing. She's held back by low range, wonky matchups against short characters, and a lack of viable approach options.

Overall her matchup spread in top tier ain't that bad. She goes even with characters like Marth, Mario, Bayo, ZSS, and Ryu. Fox is a weird matchup to describe, and the others are mostly slight losses. She beats most zoning characters effectively, but lots of random characters like Ness and Kirby stomp her with superior CQC. The primary things determine her matchups are if the opponent out-buttons her, can handle her ledge game, and can stuff her short hop approaches. That last one is important, because a landing nair can easily convert into 50%.

Her only real meta advancements as of late are improving on soccer ball tricks and the revelation that short hop dair autocancels. The Wii Fit boards have some posts about her fair lock setups, but she struggles to get in a good position to start them.

Wii Fit's a very strong mid tier, maybe even high tier if she had more reliable representation. But she lacks a good way to start her game and people don't like to pick her up.

Can you please explain some of these matchups to me? Wft goes even vs bayo marth and zss? I'm literally shocked at you saying this, not saying you're wrong I have just never heard this before

 

[Pyrover]

The issue with discussing Wii Fit matchups is that you see them so rarely. But with regards to those three:
Bayo: What most people think of in this matchup is John Numbers vs 9B at Civil War, which went to last stock last hit in game 3. More importantly, we should note that Captain Zaxk seems to prefer his Wii Fit to actually playing the mirror. This works out for him more often than not. The actual matchup is a weird case of Bayo having trouble getting in on a campy Wii Fit, actually being challenged offstage, and the fact that Deep Breathing stuff will kill her very early, whereas she has no notable advantages against Wii Fit that she doesn't just have in all matchups. Also I think Fit's F-Tilt actually trades with Witch Twist, so that helps a ton.

Marth: You're right to question this one because it makes no sense. Logically, Marth should have an advantage, and in practice he doesn't. Numbers and Mr. E have played many times and have a close set record, if you need high level evidence. She eats him alive offstage and does a very good job of punishing his landings. Fit plays very evasively here and it works out shockingly well. One of those things you just have to see in practice, because the range is definitely an issue. However, Marth is prime material for all her more damaging setups and her bair punishes literally anything that he whiffs, which prevents Marth from swinging away like he wants to.

ZSS: People forget that Fit has both a crawl and one of the lowest crouches on the game. Those do a lot to mess with ZSS's neutral. The two have comparable movement speeds, so zoning is quite viable here. Ducking under grabs sets up for easy punishes, and ZSS's neutral is honestly lacking for a top tier. Fit can outright contest a lot of things and get the lead. Don't think I've seen this at high level outside of that one game between Zack and Nairo though. Of course, it's ZSS, so you could die at any given moment, but that's most of the cast against her. Also invincible up smash kills ZSS for short hopping at early percents. ZSS really likes her short hop approaches.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's fast fall is among the worst of the smashers (43rd if I remember correctly out of 50) by itself that isn't a big deal. However, combine this with the second worst traction (only Luigi's is worse), and awful air speed (I think only Little Mac is worse and even then I'm not sure) and you have a character that is severely lacking in aerial fundamentals (which is odd considering in the pokemon universe zard is a FLYING TYPE!) and being completely unable to shield punish! )

Zard's fast fall speed is 2.24, which is tied with 3 other characters at 39. His air speed is 0.92 and is faster than 10 other characters. He does have a slower air speed than Little Mac, but Little Mac's air speed isn't bad really.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with his fastfall speed, i mean yeah he is sluggish in the air but that's the price to pay for an extra jump. What kinda hurts is that Rocksmash halts his vertical momentum making it easier to bait and punish and overall not as good a landing option as it could be.

Zard's traction is awful and kinda ruins what would otherwise be a really good Oos game.

 

[|RK|]

So, RCO airspeed is a thing:

It's basically when your character moves at the airspeed they would after their up, when their up b is interrupted (even by grabbing the ledge).

You can get rid of it temporarily by airdodging (so Cloud no longer needs to blade beam in order to get back to stage after a grab release - just airdodge first).

To get rid of it permanently, you have to experience it, then land. For more info, watch the vid... But fun fact, evidently this was in Brawl as well - but no one noticed it.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Zard's fast fall speed is 2.24, which is tied with 3 other characters at 39. His air speed is 0.92 and is faster than 10 other characters. He does have a slower air speed than Little Mac, but Little Mac's air speed isn't bad really.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with his fastfall speed, i mean yeah he is sluggish in the air but that's the price to pay for an extra jump. What kinda hurts is that Rocksmash halts his vertical momentum making it easier to bait and punish and overall not as good a landing option as it could be.

Zard's traction is awful and kinda ruins what would otherwise be a really good Oos game.

Thanks for clarifying and yes his traction IS awful, tbh when I ff with zard I don't even notice a difference in speed. 0.92 actually sounds like a really bad air speed but when I brought it up well, I remember that if his air speed got faster he might get a true combo out of his bair which is ridiculously strong. Do you think if just his traction was fixed he'd be a much more viable character overall?

 

[Game7a1]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-7-arms-saga-and-pre-evo-monthlies.448828/
Tournament weekend thread is up.

 

[BTVolta]

Lots of Wii Fit stuff

Not a bad write up but calling her MUs vs top tiers "ain't that bad" and a solid mid tier is extremely generous. The character is pretty solidly bottom 15 and I don't see her making her way out of it. Her MU spread is just terrible beating no one relevant while losing to many relevant characters like Mewtwo, Cloud, Rosa, Sheik, and Diddy pretty hard and slightly losing to Fox, Marcina, and Ness. She also doesn't beat any zoner save D3 and Zelda if we're counting them.

Deep breathing is actually holding Wii Fit back from being a better character ironically. Similar to how Shulk is designed with his arts in mind, Wii Fit was designed with DB in mind and thus any adjustment made to her kit had to always consider DB and it ends up choking her potential(This is why she got weird buffs to her KBG on her aerials and damage on her ground moves). DB slaps on a plethora of buffs to from damage reduction to walk speed increases, but it only last about 9 seconds which means you can just wait it out if you have better mobility than her. It also has a pretty long unstale timer of about 50 seconds.

I can touch up on some other things but I can't really say more than she's a terrible character with terrible MUs and no playerbase. There's basically no hope of her being considered anything more than a bottom 15 low tier. Most, if not all, of her mains think this including John(who thought she was bottom 10 not too long ago), who also carries her pretty hard to where her results are similar to Ike and Yoshi who are also bad characters, but aren't normally lumped with Wii Fit when people talk tier placements or how good there kit actually is.

 

[BSP]

So, RCO airspeed is a thing:

It's basically when your character moves at the airspeed they would after their up, when their up b is interrupted (even by grabbing the ledge).

You can get rid of it temporarily by airdodging (so Cloud no longer needs to blade beam in order to get back to stage after a grab release - just airdodge first).

To get rid of it permanently, you have to experience it, then land. For more info, watch the vid... But fun fact, evidently this was in Brawl as well - but no one noticed it.

I KNEW something stupid was going on when I'd get hit out of Mario up B and he'd just slow down as I drifted...often to my death. I thought that it was something g wrong with my controller.

Sigh, RCO lag >_>

 

[soniczx123]

ZSS is still a very strong (6-4) MU for Diddy. ZeRo's two losses to ZSS players this year pale in comparison to his overall record, as well, which includes routinely bopping Nairo and solidly dispatching Marss when they played.

I think it should be more than 6-4 (+1) if it's a very strong MU. More like 7-3 (+2)

 

[The-Technique]

I think it should be more than 6-4 (+1) if it's a very strong MU. More like 7-3 (+2)

Honestly, I don't think matches with Zero properly represent character matchups when he beats just about every player in the world on a consistent basis regardless of which character is on the field versus his Diddy. Nairo has also stated a few times in the past that he dislikes fighting Sheik more than Diddy.

 

[Dre89]

Here are the characters ZeRo's lost to this season:







Some things to note:
- That's 9 different characters, out of 16 total losses from 11 different players.
- Mario, Rosa, ZSS, and Cloud were the only characters to beat ZeRo more than once, and from multiple people.
- ZeRo's losses to Cloud (twice), Duck Hunt, Fox, and DK were not from the best players of those characters. Of these, ZeRo hasn't played the best Duck Hunt or DK this season. That'd be interesting.
- Isn't ZSS supposed to be a good matchup for Diddy? Same with Cloud but less so?

Tweek's DK is better than Will's. Don't just assume Will's is better because he mains him. If you watch both of them play and know about DK it's clear Tweek's is better because of his better movement and pressure.

 

[Das Koopa]

Tweek's DK is better than Will's. Don't just assume Will's is better because he mains him. If you watch both of them play and know about DK it's clear Tweek's is better because of his better movement and pressure.

I don't think anybody assumes Will is the best DK. HIKARU is and has been for probably about a year.

 

[Krysco]

So with Amadeus9 coming back and someone asking about Wii Fit pretty much out of pure curiosity, I myself have a similar question. What're the current thoughts on ? I don't tend to see that icon in top 8 or 16 lists much for tournament results unless it's AC or the odd time Abadango. I don't believe MKLeo uses him anymore and I don't know when the last time I saw Tyrant's or Ito's names pop up. Maybe it's just my bad memory. I'm assuming the character is still considered high tier but is his mu spread with the top tiers getting any better or worse? Is he at the high end of high tier or the low end? Not just asking Amadeus9, it's just seeing that name got me thinking of MK again.

 

[Amadeus9]

Can I get an example?

For the prepatch conversation, does anyone remember fox's jab 1-2 repetition into up smash and it got patched out? I'm a little suprised nobody mentioned it yet.

Street Fighter 5 season 1 was a solid game. Street Fighter 5 season 2 is a travesty to game design. Players are leaving that game en masse lol

So with Amadeus9 coming back and someone asking about Wii Fit pretty much out of pure curiosity, I myself have a similar question. What're the current thoughts on ? I don't tend to see that icon in top 8 or 16 lists much for tournament results unless it's AC or the odd time Abadango. I don't believe MKLeo uses him anymore and I don't know when the last time I saw Tyrant's or Ito's names pop up. Maybe it's just my bad memory. I'm assuming the character is still considered high tier but is his mu spread with the top tiers getting any better or worse? Is he at the high end of high tier or the low end? Not just asking Amadeus9, it's just seeing that name got me thinking of MK again.

If you want my opinion, MK is a counterpick character and not much else. He's an extremely effective counterpick character, but his combination of poor mus against a large portion of the most popular top tier threats with the fact that he absolutely needs high damage confirms or very early kills to offset how hard it is to win neutral will keep him from being an effective solo main character. How damn good he is at being a counterpick though will keep him from ever being irrelevant, however! It kind of makes it hard to accurately give him a tier position, though. I think somewhere in low top 20ish is accurate though. around like toon link, falcon etc.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yoshi who are also bad characters

A triggered madman is n0w 0n ze l00se.

 

[Nemesis561]

Tweek's DK is better than Will's. Don't just assume Will's is better because he mains him. If you watch both of them play and know about DK it's clear Tweek's is better because of his better movement and pressure.

Ever heard of hikaru?
EDIT:'d

 

[TDK]

Tweek's DK is better than Will's. Don't just assume Will's is better because he mains him. If you watch both of them play and know about DK it's clear Tweek's is better because of his better movement and pressure.

I was talking about HIKARU, actually...

 

[BTVolta]

A triggered madman is n0w 0n ze loose.

How else can you describe a character that only really has a slew of 33rds to his name with an occasional 9th at best and the general results of a low tier? I'd almost say Wii Fit ,Zard ,and G&W were better and are more accomplished if I didn't know how awful they all really are(G&W is pretty good actually). Yoshi at least has a decent MU spread from what I've seen, so that keeps him afloat if barely.

(I speak with a lot of hyperbole, so don't take it to seriously)

 

[The-Technique]

What're the current thoughts on ? I don't tend to see that icon in top 8 or 16 lists much for tournament results unless it's AC or the odd time Abadango. I don't believe MKLeo uses him anymore and I don't know when the last time I saw Tyrant's or Ito's names pop up. Maybe it's just my bad memory. I'm assuming the character is still considered high tier but is his mu spread with the top tiers getting any better or worse? Is he at the high end of high tier or the low end? Not just asking Amadeus9, it's just seeing that name got me thinking of MK again.

MKLeo does use Meta Knight every so often in sets, he's switched off from Cloud to Meta Knight before.

 

[soniczx123]

Street Fighter 5 season 1 was a solid game. Street Fighter 5 season 2 is a travesty to game design. Players are leaving that game en masse lol

What were the changes to Season 2 which made it to the travesty it became compared to Season 1?

 

[arbustopachon]

iirc they took out fully invincible reversals and nerfed defensive options, removed most anti air jabs, nerfed most characters while giving little to no buffs to compensate and removed Alex from the game.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I know that Ryu lost his invincible shoryukens. I'm glad a patch did not come to smash that did the same, or else the trademark DP's would be gone. Ryu and other characters had them for so long.

 

[TDK]

Adapt Kingdom (92 Entrants) (Spain)

1st: MVL
2nd: Robo~Luigi
3rd: Greward
4th: Marcbri
5th: Pepo
5th: Pefo
7th: S
7th: El_pitikla

 

[Das Koopa]

guys I think Little Mac might be bad

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6m4ft8/little_mac_survivalcasualty_report_day_1_of_arms/

 

[Heracr055]

I know that Ryu lost his invincible shoryukens. I'm glad a patch did not come to smash that did the same, or else the trademark DP's would be gone. Ryu and other characters had them for so long.

In learning Ryu for Sm4sh, I spent a lot of time researching SF mechanics, footsie principles, the fireball trap, etc. And removing Ryu's invincibility on Shoryu just seems to defeat the purpose of the move, which is all about sacrificing extreme vulnerability for the immediate 'here and now' power/reversal potential. How strange of SF V to do that

 

[Game7a1]

guys I think Little Mac might be bad

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6m4ft8/little_mac_survivalcasualty_report_day_1_of_arms/

You forgot Cagt, who placed 49th and lost to Elegant and Horse, in your post.

 

[|RK|]

Pfft, I wish Zard had better traction. Could actually confirm stuff on him out of trip

In learning Ryu for Sm4sh, I spent a lot of time researching SF mechanics, footsie principles, the fireball trap, etc. And removing Ryu's invincibility on Shoryu just seems to defeat the purpose of the move, which is all about sacrificing extreme vulnerability for the immediate 'here and now' power/reversal potential. How strange of SF V to do that

I think they changed that back relatively recently, tbh

 

[Illusion.]

That Was Easy 1 (68 entrants: Houston, Texas)

1st. Jumbolias
2nd. Phantom
3rd. UG | Deluxemenu
4th. MB | Whispy

 

[TDK]

TGL Divided (168 Entrants) (Florida)

1st: Static Manny
2nd: ESAM
3rd: MVD
4th: Dyr
5th: 8BitMan
5th: KidG
7th: NickRiddle
7th: Rideae
9th: Riot
9th: child
9th: Dath
9th: Mugi
13th: Saj
13th: DJ Jack
13th: Blank
13th: Myran

Ascension 2 (106 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: 6WX
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: LOE1
4th: Nero
5th: SETHSational
5th: Daybreak
7th: Cilvanis
7th: Ozone

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

TGL Divided (168 Entrants) (Florida)

1st: Static Manny
2nd: ESAM
3rd: MVD
4th: Dyr
5th: 8BitMan
5th: KidG
7th: NickRiddle
7th: Rideae
9th: Riot
9th: child
9th: Dath
9th: Mugi
13th: Saj
13th: DJ Jack
13th: Blank
13th: Myran

Ascension 2 (106 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: 6WX
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: LOE1
4th: Nero
5th: SETHSational
5th: Daybreak
7th: Cilvanis
7th: Ozone

damn that is a lot of Pikachu, Diddy, and Bayo