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's possibly the biggest victim of the power creep and DLC. I feel like he doesn't deserve to be a low tier and it's better to have a larger mid tier than needlessly throw characters down because there are better characters. A big mid tier feels right.
However I would support a borderline tier for characters like
Cloud, Bayo, M2 and Sonic are his worst MUs. They aren't just bad, but horrible. Add to that he struggles against Marcinas and you can see why Wario isn't doing so well.
Which of the DLC does he lose to especially hard? Cloud?Rizen Nah I think
No offense, but it's kind of hard to say he had the biggest decline when he never had any notable results. You're right about his faults being realized and DLC messing with his chances, but--as hyped as the character was--he never really had the results to back them up.
Villager definitely took a hit, but he's still relatively notable at the top level thanks to Ranai (although he's been using other characters recently as well), but his placements have been less impressive as they were when he started. The Cloud matchup is definitely the worst of the DLC for him (though if you can get him offstage it's winnable).
They do indeed have a longer grab range than Wario and faster ground mobility making for more frequent grabs. They also have a faster pummel that does the same damage so they can lessen the damage difference. I would imagine Wario can also easily get opponents offstage with his throws since his fthrow is his kill throw. And while I'm sure players have managed to make Marcina's grab game work for them, there is Melee and Brawl to look back at and show that having more combo-oriented throws did work very well for Marth.
Add Earth using Corrin more, Vivid's recent results (eliminating 6WX at Smashdelphia), and also Promaelia getting some local results. Oh, and let's not forget MkLeo's Corrin. At the end of this year, I'd bet not very many people would still consider Corrin a mid tier. She's most likely a high tier (though #13 is still a bit too high, in my opinion).Midwest Mayhem 9 (300 Entrants) (Midwest)
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7th: Cosmos
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9th: Ryuga
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ALPHA (109 Entrants) (New York)
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7th: Frozen
2-1 Istudying sending him to losers 2-0 Istudying eliminating him at 33rd 2-0 aperture sending him to losers
Yikarur
(I think) 2-1 aperture eliminating him at 33rd (Dr. DORF) is in top 16 losers side after beating Schligger in pools, meru and kibzu(don't know who he plays) in winners top 64, and beating Zcyclone to get top 16.
Ness took a hit but he didn't get hit that hard. He's even with Lucas, debatably is even or slightly loses with Mewtwo. Debatably is even or slightly beats Roy, Ryu and Bayo (two top tiers) and then loses to Cloud and Corrin.
I made the mistake of being in his way lol. He and Zeph were in my pool, so RIP me. He also beat Zeph's Cloud and Seagull's Sonic. Both with only Jr. He barely used Ryu, so don't let that diminish what he did.Wait...can we talk about the fact that Parappa
With Bowser Jr.???
Right now if it weren't for MkLeo,
would at best be in high tier because of Mr.E becoming inconsistent and other Marth players no longer hitting as hard as they once did.Even with MK Leo, honestly, considering Cloud is out way more. You know, I don't like the idea that we default to saying that the characters that top players use *must* be top tier. I feel like we try and categorize characters in the same way we categorize their players. A top level player can already do damage with mid-tiers. A high tier - especially backed by another character for bad MUs - can most certainly win a supermajor.Right now if it weren't for MkLeo,
and of course Just ummm..Yeah
Look....it's an EsamOpinion, I get it, but........really?
I think Mewtwo kills earlier than Marcina more often. Yeah, an early tipper can end a stock at 50, earlier with rage... But that tipper fsmash is rare. Much rarer than a variety of Mewtwo's options at 100%.
Could we please get past this tipper fsmash nonsense like it's what makes Marth good at killing? I swear this comes up every time Marth is brought up when it has so little to do with the character's actual effect on the meta.
Does he really have good fram data? Which attacks have good frame data?
/'s results have been dwindling for the past 2 or 3 months; 's have been steady for a while, better than the Falchions themselves, and also has 3 PGRv3 representatives. Leo has been using Cloud much more than Marth too.
What characters are considered slightly Losing MU's for Marcina ? I feel like they have not been as defined or stated as the other Top tiers.
Both have good MU spreads in the sense that they don't lose any more than 5 MUs. It's been argued by WaDi that Diddy beats Mewtwo +2, but Abadango, Zinoto, and Dyr have it only as a slight win for Diddy.
I have to give the edge to Mewtwo here, I think he's currently the better character.
I wouldn't say he has great frame data since his Smashes are real high in start-up and end-lag.
Argued as even, in fact I agree, but it's possibly a slight disadvantage due to Larry believing Fox slightly wins and Mr. E having Tweeted out after Civil War that he's wanting to work on a Cloud for that MU. False, who plays both characters, believes Sheik slightly wins; unfortunately, could not find other recent MU charts supporting this. False and, I'd imagine, Mr. E both believe they lose this. Zinoto also has this MU as Diddy winning. Goes back and forth, but I can see why Cloud would win this; Tweek and Pugwest both believe Cloud wins. 6WX and Wrath both believe Sonic wins; no data for what the top Marths think could be found.
is -1 against (possibly ) is -2 against and -1 against 
How?
>>. Marth is a spacing monster but Mewtwo's good at spacing too with a killer throw game, better mobility/recovery, the best reflector/command grab/mobility boost and shadowball.You misunderstand - I was going for the strongest kill option. Never said it was the only one. I wanted to show the difference between Mewtwo's options and Marth's strongest option. Otherwise we get to moves you'll see somewhere between 70-90%, and that's not at all far off from what Mewtwo does.
Most of his good frame data comes from startup, but I was actually struck a little while ago at how surprisingly good Wario's startup frame data seems to be.
They win for a lot of similar reasons Cloud does but they can't get cheesed offstage and they can edgeguard him very well.
