Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Dre89]

Maybe my reply was too vague? It doesn't really matter who they were before. Salem and Zack are top level players now. Tweek couldn't reach top level play until he picked up a good character. Nairo doesn't play Pit in Grands anymore. Ally was always playing a good character.

Your argument is what then? That if the top five players in the world picked up Bayo that it would somehow demonstrate how dominant she is? As opposed to how dominant all of their characters are already? How would you even prove that? Zero already obliterates top level talent with Diddy. Saying that he would dominate even more seems like a meaningless argument, I guess.

The argument is that the reason why her results aren't super dominant is because the top players in the world don't play her. In terms of results, who plays the character is more important than the character's kit itself. She can still be the best character in the game kitwise without having the best results because the top (not high) level players don't play her.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think we stepped into February 2016 guys.


If Bayo's kit was THAT impressive Dre89 , don't you think some of the top players (barring the two you aren't counting for some reason) would have switched over to her by now? As in, switched mains entirely.

I mean sheesh, people have switched OFF Bayo on occasion.

Most of the top players (the ones you count) change their mind on if she's the best character in the game or not.

What more do you need to know she isn't borken and broken?

 

[Dre89]

I think we stepped into February 2016 guys.


If Bayo's kit was THAT impressive Dre89 , don't you think some of the top players (barring the two you aren't counting for some reason) would have switched over to her by now? As in, switched mains entirely.

I mean sheesh, people have switched OFF Bayo on occasion.

Most of the top players (the ones you count) change their mind on if she's the best character in the game or not.

What more do you need to know she isn't borken and broken?

Not necessarily. It's not like they were all playing Diddy or whoever they thought the best character was. They didn't all play Diddy in the hoo ha days when he was indisputably the best.

I don't think she's so far beyond other characters that you can beat people significantly better than you. I just think she's the best character in the game because she wasn't designed with the same balance constraints as the non-DLC characters.

 

[NotLiquid]

If Bayo's kit was THAT impressive Dre89 , don't you think some of the top players (barring the two you aren't counting for some reason) would have switched over to her by now? As in, switched mains entirely.

I mean sheesh, people have switched OFF Bayo on occasion.

Most of the top players (the ones you count) change their mind on if she's the best character in the game or not.

What more do you need to know she isn't borken and broken?

Funny realization, you could replace Bayo in this post with any of the Top 5 characters and that'd currently sum up the ongoing state of the tier list meta.

I wonder if Bayo/Cloud being the most prevalent secondary/pocket characters right now had any bearing on ZeRo's tier list.

 

[blackghost]

Not necessarily. It's not like they were all playing Diddy or whoever they thought the best character was. They didn't all play Diddy in the hoo ha days when he was indisputably the best.

I don't think she's so far beyond other characters that you can beat people significantly better than you. I just think she's the best character in the game because she wasn't designed with the same balance constraints as the non-DLC characters.

Why do you keep saying the doc was designed with different balance in mind? Most of them are barely standouts in the game: roy,Lucas, corrin, mewtwo are all relatively normal power level characters ryu is a tad above average and then cloud and bayo are elite.
Actually you aren't quite right on the diddy point off the top of my head diddy mains/co mains included xzax,tyrant, denti, aerolink,mewtwoking, and others I'm sure. Prepatch diddy was absurd people would switch to diddy after losing a game or being down in a set. Bayo has never been that. Not every pro picked up diddy but everyone knew how to play diddy I remember dk will and void both talking about it.
At some point theory and results should begin to correlate with bayo it's always been said she would dominate eventually but it hasn't happened have we even had two bayo's in top 8 of a major?

 

[Dre89]

Why do you keep saying the doc was designed with different balance in mind? Most of them are barely standouts in the game: roy,Lucas, corrin, mewtwo are all relatively normal power level characters ryu is a tad above average and then cloud and bayo are elite.
Actually you aren't quite right on the diddy point off the top of my head diddy mains/co mains included xzax,tyrant, denti, aerolink,mewtwoking, and others I'm sure. Prepatch diddy was absurd people would switch to diddy after losing a game or being down in a set. Bayo has never been that. Not every pro picked up diddy but everyone knew how to play diddy I remember dk will and void both talking about it.
At some point theory and results should begin to correlate with bayo it's always been said she would dominate eventually but it hasn't happened have we even had two bayo's in top 8 of a major?

I meant the newcomer DLC specifically. They all break previous balance constraints in some way.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That's because none of the top players play her.

What threshold are you using for "top players"? It would help if you were a bit less vague.

Smash 4 players, as has been pointed out a million times, are bad at defense.

Care to explain how?

 

[Krysco]

Well there's also the matter of hoo hah Diddy being around when the game was brand new and everyone was looking for a character to use compared to Bayo who came incredibly late into the game, when most players already had a character they were comfortable using. And she's clearly not mandatory to do well in tournaments. Other top tiers, high tiers and even some mid tiers do well enough. Sure, any and every top player could pick up Bayo but why bother if they're comfortable with Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosa etc.

Bayo is clearly a very good character, but she's not flooding top 8s left and right like Brawl MK was. I wouldn't call her broken...just extremely ****ing annoying. I've only fought ones on FG and I fought a planking one and just sat there like '...seriously?'

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did those guys have top level results before they picked up Bayo? I know Salem was a top player at the back end of the Brawl era but I'd never heard of Zack before Bayo so I don't know what his results were like.

Also, "Trying her" and "maining her since she was released" are two very different things.

I highly doubt if Zero mained her since release and had a similar level of mastery with her as he does with Diddy that he would be unsuccessful with her. He would absolutely dominate with her.

Except her neutral control isn't in the level of what ZeRo wants.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Her neutral isn't awful by any means but compared to characters around her level it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Some of you guys need to remember there is a difference between saying, "X character is the best in the game" and "X character is broken, without weaknesses, and allows bad players to get easy undeserved wins."

It seems like some people feel offended that Bayonetta is currently considered the best character in the game. There's nothing wrong with that though, there's no need to try to intentionally undersell the character just to prove a point if you don't think she is. Ultimately, the exact placing isn't really super important. I think we can all agree she's at least top 5 at worst.

Just because Bayonetta is considered the best doesn't mean she can't lose to a more skilled player using someone like Mario. That isn't the point of what people are saying. The point is that in a hypothetical vacuum where individual player skill doesn't matter, Bayonetta as a character seems to have the best culminations of options and tools compared to every other character in many people's opinions. That doesn't mean she is without weakness either, it just means that whatever flaws she has slow her down a lot less and matter much less than the flaws of all the other characters.

Sorry if it seemed like I'm just preaching to the choir. I feel like what I'm saying should be obvious yet I still see a lot of people who seem to not understand this.

 

[blackghost]

I don't think anyone is disputing bayo is good. the discussion is the line between good and broken. And most postings are saying she isn't broken.
If you want to talk about whether bayo is the best im happy to open that discussion. I'll open it with this: a character cannot be the best while simultaneously losing several matchups with other top tiers and iffy in some high tiers. I do not care by what margin she beats mid tiers and lower most high tiers do the same and those characters aren't relevant.
I'm a results person. When Lucina backers stated she had her merrits to stand with marth (post buffs) her results and usage rate eventually increased. Dhd and olimar have done the same. Bayo has been out in her current state for plenty of time and while her usage has increased her results are extremely inconsistent.
I look at cloud or diddy as the best. Diddy has been around since the beginning of this games life and while coubterplay for almost every other top tier has developed diddy (imo) has the least.

 

[Lord Dio]

On a separate note, I thought Bayonetta was supposed to be the best edgeguarding character in the game. Why is ZeRo's Diddy (and ESAM's Pikachu) the only two characters that consistently edgeguard Cloud?

It's less ZeRo's diddy edgeguarding cloud and moreso just....ZeRo completely dominating Cloud.
As for the edgeguarding part, ZeRo knows how to time his down tilts and dairs in order to gimp or spike cloud. You see Fatality and ZeRo doing it to each other at Momocon, and Fatality doing it to komo's Cloud at Civil War.

 

[TDK]

Ignition #88 (Midwest) (131 Players)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Ned
3rd: Captain Zack
4th: Tyroy
5th: big_mak
5th: Seth
7th: Dan
7th: Panda Bair

WNF Spring 2.8 (50 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant
2nd: K9Sbruce
3rd: Zenyou
4th: Taternator

I'd also say goes even at worst with Bayo, and it'd definitely be her hardest matchup if it wasn't for Ness's awful recovery.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't think anyone is disputing bayo is good. the discussion is the line between good and broken. And most postings are saying she isn't broken.
If you want to talk about whether bayo is the best im happy to open that discussion. I'll open it with this: a character cannot be the best while simultaneously losing several matchups with other top tiers and iffy in some high tiers. I do not care by what margin she beats mid tiers and lower most high tiers do the same and those characters aren't relevant.
I'm a results person. When Lucina backers stated she had her merrits to stand with marth (post buffs) her results and usage rate eventually increased. Dhd and olimar have done the same. Bayo has been out in her current state for plenty of time and while her usage has increased her results are extremely inconsistent.
I look at cloud or diddy as the best. Diddy has been around since the beginning of this games life and while coubterplay for almost every other top tier has developed diddy (imo) has the least.

I'd say this is debatable. Diddy counterplay has always been somewhat apparent but is usually stonewalled mostly by ZeRo exhibiting indominably oppressive neutral, to the point that plenty of Diddy's blind spots like punishing short hops, monkey flips, range (depending on characters) and recoveries become a lot less apparent. A lot of the top pros are more prone to catch onto these things against MVD and Zinoto even though they're both showing large signs of improvement as of late. Similarly we keep talking about Cloud and Bayonetta having "obvious weaknesses", perhaps moreso Cloud, but it's rarely stopped either of them from getting massive results. I'd argue we're at a point in the game's lifespan where counterplay exists for everyone that currently inhabits Top 10 but there's a vast difference between theorycraft and execution.

And that's another reason why a "number 1" character would be on shaky ground no matter who it is because even if we agree that Diddy is the best, the best player who mains him and who is also the best player in the world right now, disagrees immensely. Diddy's number of losing matchups are arguably on par with Bayo and Cloud, who most of their respective best players would argue only have maybe one or two losing/"annoying" ones while everything else swings to even at worst.

I think in a vacuum there might be some merit to the idea that Bayo's inconsistency speaks against the idea that she can be number one (even if that inconsistency still almost guarantees her Top 8 representation in virtually every major tournament), but if we hypothetically exclude ZeRo out of the equation who is the most consistent top player generally right now and can eviscerate brackets with even Lucina, Diddy's results would look just as inconsistent.

 

[Rizen]

I don't think anyone is disputing bayo is good. the discussion is the line between good and broken. And most postings are saying she isn't broken.
If you want to talk about whether bayo is the best im happy to open that discussion. I'll open it with this: a character cannot be the best while simultaneously losing several matchups with other top tiers and iffy in some high tiers. I do not care by what margin she beats mid tiers and lower most high tiers do the same and those characters aren't relevant.
I'm a results person. When Lucina backers stated she had her merrits to stand with marth (post buffs) her results and usage rate eventually increased. Dhd and olimar have done the same. Bayo has been out in her current state for plenty of time and while her usage has increased her results are extremely inconsistent.
I look at cloud or diddy as the best. Diddy has been around since the beginning of this games life and while coubterplay for almost every other top tier has developed diddy (imo) has the least.

If you go purely by results, Bayo easily is #1.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
Bayonetta: 313
Cloud: 290
Diddy Kong: 288.5
She just got 2nd, only after ZeRo at:
GGC: Nairo Saga (June 10th-11th) (Southern California) (485 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st: TSM | ZeRo (Diddy Kong)
2nd: MVG | Salem (Bayonetta)

What are Bayo's top tier MUs?


IMO Bayo, Cloud and Diddy could all be argued to be #1. If I had to choose one it would be Diddy. Sheik's 4th. Like @SolidSense said, Bayo's not "Broken" but a huge pain to fight. I think she still has a lot of potential; if she can drag you offstage ladders and their DI potential aren't nearly as important.

 

[TDK]

Team Japan has been fully funded for ARMS saga and EVO. In it is Komorikiri , KEN , Ranai , Abadango , Tsu- , Kameme , Raito , and the international debut of Eim .

 

[PJB]

Another arguement against bayo being number 1 is frankly that she does just not have the number 1 neutral in the game. Consider brawl ICs, a character that had a punish game that was so far superior to every other character and obviously far stronger than bayonetta now. In spite of this fact, they were weaker than MK. Fox in Melee has the strongest neutral as well, and he's generally considered number 1. It takes time, but dominant neutral characters usually only get stronger as the game gets more explored

 

[FeelMeUp]

she sports a good dash>shield, the best OoS game in the entire cast without contest, safe pokes with massive hitboxes(shoot the man that designed utilt and fair) that lead into massive damage, the ability to potentially kill you or do ~50 damage for one timing read in neutral, good aerials that combo into themselves or each other, and an obnoxiously thin frame and that weird thing specific to her and cloud that makes certain combos/moves just not link properly on her.
bayo's neutral is fine.

 

[PJB]

Sorry, let me clarify. I'm not saying her neutral isn't good, I think it's one of the best in the game. I just don't think it's THE best in the game, and we're talking about her in contention for number 1

 

[FeelMeUp]

doesn't matter.
you don't need to have the best neutral to be the best character.
most would agree that while have superior neutrals, is clearly the best character in the game.
no one with a neutral on the level of hers has half of the reward she does.
nor can they invalidate the combos and setups of most characters while sporting the ability to tag and kill you for being slightly off.

 

[Lord Dio]

Another arguement against bayo being number 1 is frankly that she does just not have the number 1 neutral in the game. Consider brawl ICs, a character that had a punish game that was so far superior to every other character and obviously far stronger than bayonetta now. In spite of this fact, they were weaker than MK. Fox in Melee has the strongest neutral as well, and he's generally considered number 1. It takes time, but dominant neutral characters usually only get stronger as the game gets more explored

As FeelMeUp has shown, the best neutral does not mean absolute best. For example, while sheik has debatably the best in the game, she is not the best in the game for other reasons ("lack of the X factor"). ZeRo excluded, people are managing to exploit the habits of the other top Diddy players.
As you said above, I think the argument you are looking for is that bayo's entural is not quite on the level of the other characters considered the best.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay, so there are lots of good doubles character teams out there; Lucas/Lucario, Meta Knight/G&W, Cloud/Anyone etc...

When do we add Mario/Bayonetta to that list? (edit: just tested this myself, also works with Doc's Cape, as well as Mii Sword's "fake cape" Down Special #2 - Reversal Slash)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[NotLiquid]

PGRv3 #31-40
https://panda.gg/blogs/smash-bros/pgrv3-31-40-top-smash-bros-wii-u-players-in-the-world

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Okay, so there are lots of good doubles character teams out there; Lucas/Lucario, Meta Knight/G&W, Cloud/Anyone etc...

When do we add Mario/Bayonetta to that list? (edit: just tested this myself, also works with Doc)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why is this a thing and even more why does this even work?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Why is this a thing and even more why does this even work?

I think it's to do with slowdown and Cape.

Exactly the same thing works if you use Cape with the timer item, or with Shadow from an Assist Trophy.

I'd imagine it has to do with Cape's reversing/windbox properties not meshing with slowdowm perhaps?

Edit: I can also confirm that you do need the two Capes to kill. You NEED to hit the 2nd Cape as the opponent is still during the start of their flipping around animation. This can kill Dedede at 15%, but only if you land 2 Capes. Even at 50%, one Cape alone does not kill.

 

[Lord Dio]

I think it's to do with slowdown and Cape.

Exactly the same thing works if you use Cape with the timer item, or with Shadow from an Assist Trophy.

I'd imagine it has to do with Cape's reversing/windbox properties not meshing with slowdowm perhaps?

Edit: I can also confirm that you do need the two Capes to kill. You NEED to hit the 2nd Cape as the opponent is still during the start of their flipping around animation. This can kill Dedede at 15%, but only if you land 2 Capes. Even at 50%, one Cape alone does not kill.

So basically if you don't time it right you're stuck doing a 2v1 team combo anyways.

This is interesting though, and it makes me wonder if others would work as well. I'd like to see FLUDD and Hydro Pump be tested on this.

Also didn't Pika/Sheik and G&W get banned from doubles or something?

 

[Bowserboy3]

So basically if you don't time it right you're stuck doing a 2v1 team combo anyways.

This is interesting though, and it makes me wonder if others would work as well. I'd like to see FLUDD and Hydro Pump be tested on this.

Also didn't Pika/Sheik and G&W get banned from doubles or something?

I tried other things like windboxes/pushpach, such as G&W Uair and F.L.U.D.D, but nothing else worked. I'm almost positive this is to do with Cape's reversing properties.

If it makes things any clearer, I also tested the Mii Swordsman, poor man's Cape, down B special thing, and that also works for this. It's absolutely to do with Cape's turnaround.

 

[Lord Dio]

I tried other things like windboxes/pushpach, such as G&W Uair and F.L.U.D.D, but nothing else worked. I'm almost positive this is to do with Cape's reversing properties.

If it makes things any clearer, I also tested the Mii Swordsman, poor man's Cape, down B special thing, and that also works for this. It's absolutely to do with Cape's turnaround.

What about anything the opponent does in the Witch Time? Does it still work if they're in the middle of using a move with armor, or a counter? If they airdodge?

 

[Bowserboy3]

What about anything the opponent does in the Witch Time? Does it still work if they're in the middle of using a move with armor, or a counter? If they airdodge?

If the opponent is using a move with super armor or a counter you can just grab them out of it. That's the beauty of this; all it takes is a throw to set up. They can't use a super armor move, counter or air dodge right after being thrown, so as long as Mario times the Capes correctly, if you're above 10% (kills Dedede at 10%, Mario dies at 0% lol) you're gonna lose that stock.

 

[blackghost]

Okay, so there are lots of good doubles character teams out there; Lucas/Lucario, Meta Knight/G&W, Cloud/Anyone etc...

When do we add Mario/Bayonetta to that list? (edit: just tested this myself, also works with Doc's Cape, as well as Mii Sword's "fake cape" Down Special #2 - Reversal Slash)

There was a problem fetching the tweet

smash 4 is a funny game so many wierd interactions. this is cute and reasonably scary to look at, but this is extrmeely specific. fresh witch time needed andonyl works with more and mii swordfighter? not practical at all

bayo as a doubles character is very interesting to evaluate. bayo, while designed in her games to fight hordes, doesn't really succeed with that in smash 4. her combos can be more than 2 seconds in real time, and she is vulnerable to getting reversed and killed herself. her greatest threat in witch time is more or less useless outside of smash kill percents and her smash attacks can be rendered useless in the chaos. they are large but they lack priority and are still slow (her fastest being 18 frames). her edge gaurding game in the format of doubles is also not much a threat. the last thing is the proces of killing. most elite doubles characters (cloud, lucina, ryu, and mario) all have access to a strong quick kill move that seals stocks and can be throw out liberally. bayonetta to kill is going oteither land a full combo, forward throw, or bair in doubles. none of those options are really ideal.
that being said almost no one else can rack up damage her pace. bayo is the only character in the game that can force a game of 2v2 into a game of two separate 1v1s. she can play role of stock tank or aggressor. when partnered with a chaarcter like mario ryu or cloud this positive can outweigh all the other negatives.

i do not consider double bayo to be an ideal team unless the players have extreme experience and chemistry together two bayos often get more in each others way and can end up witch timing each other from across the stage

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'd also say goes even at worst with Bayo, and it'd definitely be her hardest matchup if it wasn't for Ness's awful recovery.

Could I ask why does so well against ?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Could I ask why does so well against ?

Most Ness mains see it as even, some slight loss. I'm on the side of slight win though from personal experience and top level play. Basically in a condescend version because I'm on moblie. Ness has great combos and strings on tall, fast fallers like Bayonetta that enable him to rack up damage fast. Ness is one of the few characters who can apply pressure and damage to Bayonetta off stage with PKT and PKF. Ness' strongest kill option happens to be immune to Witch Time which means Ness is alot less likely to be hit by it. Bayonetta is very light which compounds on this fact and means she will have a harder time escaping disadvantage against Ness and can be killed easier for whiffed defensive options like WTime or her bad Roll/dodge. Ness is also a smaller character on the floatier side of things so it's easier for him to escape Bayonetta combos.

There is more to it than that on both sides of the MU but I've seen plenty from Bayonetta who say it's even for a top three potentially best character that says a lot.

 

[Pyrover]

In no particular order...

His strong grab game lets him outright ignore Witch Time for most of the match. Forward air often beats Witch Time as well, but isn't especially consistent.

PK Thunder is a reliable, safe way to harass Bayonetta off stage. It doesn't necessarily kill her, and usually won't, but very few other characters can safely get a free 17-ish percent whenever she recovers.

His aerials are typically more threatening than hers on a single hit, allowing him to trade with her lack of disjoints pretty effectively to get a percent lead.

His floaty nature, fantastic air dodge, and aerial drift makes it much easier for Ness to escape from her combos.

There is a notable differential in kill power. Since she struggles to get her death combos in this matchup, it actually matters a lot here.

Retreating fair stuffs most of her neutral game.

Her weight and fall speed make her especially vulnerable to the PK Thunder 2 frame trap, which hits the area above Ness's head, a place that her mobility leaves her in somewhat often.

Up air punishes after burner kick for way more damage than she wants to take on a consistent basis.

Of course, if Ness gets edge guarded, which is prone to happen to him, this only matters so much, and she will often get more damage per combo than him. Her blatantly superior mobility mitigates the neutral disadvantage as well, so the matchup is probably even. I've seen it argued to be 55-45 for Ness, but I think that's a bit optimistic with such a bad edge guarding situation. They go even at worst either way though. The Bayo's in my area consider it to be her worst matchup, or close to it, but these people only do well at a regional level, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The Bayo's in my area consider it to be her worst matchup, or close to it, but these people only do well at a regional level, so take it with a grain of salt.

Didn't ask for your background, m8.

 

[Minordeth]

Care to explain how?

I'm at work or I'd link to videos, but basically, Smash 4 players, even top level talent, forget how to DI/SDI clutch moves correctly and make poor decisions when in or coming out of disadvantage. Probably the most prominent example is Zero vs Luhtie at Civil War when Zero made successive poor DI and defensive decisions that led to Luhtie getting that game winning ladder. Actually, all of Civil War has players making questionable decisions on defense.

Check out NinjaLink's twitch analysis to see how regularly top players play defense sub optimally. In Meeks, you have to be good at SDI and DI early on if you want to have any success, so even mid level play has pretty good DI, even if decision making is variable.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I can drop plenty examples of people dying in scenarios where they had no business doing so. Mostly to ladders, but it'll show you how bad people's SDI/DI/Airdodge habits in this game are. For most of them I'll point out what they did wrong. Might take a little while tho.

 

[TDK]

Back Throw Thursdays #16 (47 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Captain Zack
2nd: Tyroy
3rd: Ned
4th: JJROCKETS

True Combo Thursdays 26 (42 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Rich Brown
2nd: Nicko
3rd: Ki
4th: NotLast

 

[Hippieslayer]

Didn't ask for your background, m8.

stfu

 

[PK Bash]

I'd also say goes even at worst with Bayo, and it'd definitely be her hardest matchup if it wasn't for Ness's awful recovery.

I know I'm optimistic about Ness but I think this is a bit exaggerated lol.
Even matchup is a fair assessment though. But I think even if Ness had a better recovery, him being her "hardest matchup" would still be reaching a bit. Ness is lower high tier at best (prob mid tier). Bayo is top 3 free.
*edit: in response to Krysco (does it tag you if I edit in after?) point being there are surely better characters with better tools than Ness to make the matchup harder. Ness has good tools and I can see the case for winning the MU but nothing he has should be overwhelming Bayo at any point in the match.
**EDIT 2 TDK Tier placement does not affect MUs, but MUs affect tier placement. So by extension, tier placement certainly does matter. Ness can't impose his will on Bayo like Sheik or someone can.

"Awful recovery" isn't that much of a mu decider for a couple of reasons. One, it means little if said character is supposedly so dominant in the MU; Cloud and Fox are the best examples. If Ness was actually Bayo's worse MU, we're looking at a theoretical +2 minimum, a bad recovery by itself would not suddenly make that even.

Two, it's null and void if nobody is ever gimping him.

Which none of you do.

---
P Pyrover (and everyone really because I've seen this exaggerated often in this thread) Ness' grab game does not allow him to "ignore" Witch Time all match. Competent Bayos are perfectly capable of playing anti-grab. If Ness is just looking for grabs all match he will lose.
I don't take fault with anything else you have said though apart from the retreating fair thing because that isn't really true. I would disagree with the "Bayo does more damage than Ness" as well because on average, Ness' damage output will match it and he needs less hits to match it. A lot of these are good points and actually explain why Ness' matchups aren't as awful as some people seem to think because most of these are universally applicable. (Replace "Afterburner Kick" with something else like "Bouncing Fish" for example and that sentence about up air punishes is valid for more MUs than just Bayonetta.)
---

she sports ... the best OoS game in the entire cast without contest ...

Please elaborate on this bit if you get a chance. I think I know what you're getting at but I'm not entirely convinced this statement is true, so convince me.
I get the reward off of Witch Twist is potentially huge and it can be used to escape pressure but not sure if that is enough. I dunno about other characters but I know Ness can apply very effective shield pressure without getting hit by a Witch Twist OoS and her other OoS options aren't that great. Witch Twist is a great move and all and being able to do it out of shield is very good I know, but I can't see it carrying her OoS game to such levels.
But hey I've been wrong before. Am I forgetting something important?

Didn't ask for your background, m8.

No you didn't, but he took the time out of his day to give you a decent and reasonably detailed answer to what you did ask for. I hope you appreciate that.