Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

Who's is who's?

First is False. Second is Mr. E. Third is Pugwest.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Who's is who's?

Any chance you can label them so we can tell exactly who did them (I can see which one is Pugwest's though)?

The first one to me, seems the most accurate. That middle one seems very questionable, as there are many even or above characters that Marth can give lots of trouble, due to just possessing a sword, such as Peach, Wii Fit, and Kirby.

fixed, sorry

 

[Das Koopa]

Also to be honest I don't think Smashboards helping to determine seeding will go very wrong

seems like an okay idea, the Melee Gfaqs community frequently and maturely discusses guesses for seeding & the like for big deal Melee tournies and could probably provide decent input if they were ever asked. I don't think bias will be a huge problem

 

[|RK|]

Any chance you can label them so we can tell exactly who did them (I can see which one is Pugwest's though)?

The first one to me, seems the most accurate. That middle one seems very questionable, as there are many even or above characters that Marth can give lots of trouble, due to just possessing a sword, such as Peach, Wii Fit, and Kirby.

On the last note (because I know most about Kirby), it seems all three Marth mains gave Kirby roughly even, which is interesting. I got to play friendlies with Mr. E on Tuesday, and it would seem dash to power shield isn't the worst option against Marth.

I don't think Kirby loses to disjoints alone. But they do make approaching a hassle.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yes they all die early, while Diddy, Mario, Cloud and Ryu don't.

Weight is an important factor when it comes to disadvantage just like evasiveness is. No one has it good both ways.

Of course, but the disadvantage you're talking about is intrinsic to every light character, so it's pointless to mention (especially when the character you're bringing up isn't even a tournament staple.) How is "ZSS dies to Bowser at 50%" even remotely conducive for a good discussion? It just comes across as incredibly passive aggressive towards Bowser players for no good reason.

 

[Das Koopa]

i updated my region map btw

-South Dakota added to West North Central
-"Dead Zone" part removed
-"Atlantic Northeast" renamed to "New England"

i got no other name for what region name Montana/North Dakota/South Dakota/Wyoming would be so I just went with the climate region name lol

 

[C0rvus]

Yes they all die early, while Diddy, Mario, Cloud and Ryu don't.

Weight is an important factor when it comes to disadvantage just like evasiveness is. No one has it good both ways.

Hmmm... What about Yoshi? He's heavy, and seems to have pretty good disadvantage between high air speed, his armored jump, and a couple ways to reverse his momentum. Course, he pays for it in other areas, but that's to be expected.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If you are playing a weaker character by choice when there are 10-15+ top level viable fighters in this game, that is your fault as a player. You made a poor decision at css. The result is still player vs player.

Wasn't his fault his character got nerfed like that (still top 5 on paper) And muscle memory is a b word too.

But off of that, I think a proper fix to remove circle jerking and improve quality posting overall in this thread is if we report posts that are outdated in info, contain debunked statements and claims, or is overall a hazard to the influence this thread holds. We could also report posts that adds nothing beneficial to this thread as well (" woohoo X player is making it into top 15! HYPE!, etc... Save that for a social thread because... That's what they're for). We could also take more time in making our posts (this thread goes by insanely fast); the urge to say something really quick before it loses relevance is something I can attest to being a temptation for making a decent post over potentially making a post of great quality and longevity.

 

[Shaya]

I don't know about you, but ZSS' "free disadvantage", is applying less and less as the game develops. It's just another option. An option that can be covered, or read and if you don't have awful mobility (i.e. hello high tiers) can be caught out.
Furthermore the development of "advantage" states of characters is making it apply less and less to, is ZSS flip jumping out of Mario's "free" 60% combos at low percent? No.
Is ZSS flip jumping away from Sheik doing the same thing? No.
Cloud? Definitely not. Up airs and nairs for days.

Moving towards the ledge with her isn't that great either.

"Oh I can't frame trap ZSS from a throw on my bad character, she has a free disadvantage state"
Are you focusing too hard on trying to punish ZSS before she flip jumps when you have a fair deal of time after she does so to do something? Like, Kirby players who know the match up are hunting her down, why can't you?

ZSS' landing options in disadvantage without flip jump are poor compared to most of the high tiers. It isn't Sonic abysmal, but it's no where near as good as Cloud dair/uair or Sheik bairing or nairing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pft.

I Ryu had ZSS flip jump, people would cry bloody murder.

 

[Kofu]

Arts yes, but Climax really is a series of projectiles.

My mistake, I thought they were the same.

 

[Shaya]

Pft.

I Ryu had ZSS flip jump, people would cry bloody murder.

They're crying murder over it already, because they probably don't know how to deal with it.
FADC sup sup?

Your character also lives 3x longer than she does. Would you like to take flip jump and have your weight pushed to 80? Would you take the loss of hitbox size and duration on all of your aerials on top of it?

One thing that can't be underrated is how great a recovery move it is though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They're crying murder over it already, because they probably don't know how to deal with it.
FADC sup sup?

Your character also lives 3x longer than she does. Would you like to take flip jump and have your weight pushed to 80? Would you take the loss of hitbox size and duration on all of your aerials on top of it?

One thing that can't be underrated is how great a recovery move it is though.

You bet your sweet aussie ass I would.

NO BAN PLZ MODS!!!!!

 

[Shaya]

I probably should've also stated "you likely still would, but you'd second guess it".
Then maybe someone would jump air dodge towards you when you use it and then laugh as you spent the next gazillion frames unable to act and you'd get juggled to death.

I don't deny it's good, but "free" is silly. It's got counter play, it's got tons of huge lag interactions with it.
The options of attacking or flip jumping don't always come together, because of how her aerials work.

 

[sedrf]

Do you think people have developed enough counterplay to most of the top tiers snot named

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't know about you, but ZSS' "free disadvantage", is applying less and less as the game develops. It's just another option. An option that can be covered, or read and if you don't have awful mobility (i.e. hello high tiers) can be caught out.
Furthermore the development of "advantage" states of characters is making it apply less and less to, is ZSS flip jumping out of Mario's "free" 60% combos at low percent? No.
Is ZSS flip jumping away from Sheik doing the same thing? No.
Cloud? Definitely not. Up airs and nairs for days.

Moving towards the ledge with her isn't that great either.

"Oh I can't frame trap ZSS from a throw on my bad character, she has a free disadvantage state"
Are you focusing too hard on trying to punish ZSS before she flip jumps when you have a fair deal of time after she does so to do something? Like, Kirby players who know the match up are hunting her down, why can't you?

ZSS' landing options in disadvantage without flip jump are poor compared to most of the high tiers. It isn't Sonic abysmal, but it's no where near as good as Cloud dair/uair or Sheik bairing or nairing.

Even Ganondorf can just Nair ZSS pretty consistently for an ill-advised Flip Kick. It's a very good move but it definitely has counterplay, and Zero Suits who use it as a crutch will get bodied by experienced opponents.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Pft.

I Ryu had ZSS flip jump, people would cry bloody murder.

Nah man.

They're saving that for Chun-Li in Smash 5.

 

[FullMoon]

Mr. E placing Greninja as one of Marth's worst MUs has got to be Venia's doing lol

 

[ARGHETH]

Mr. E placing Greninja as one of Marth's worst MUs has got to be Venia's doing lol

They did agree that it's even at best, though.
(50:50, 45:55, 40:60)

 

[jespoke]

I would say Diddy has it good both ways because monkey flip but his recovery is kinda awkward so I'm not sure

Anyways, the 3 best Marth mains have all put out Marth MU Charts now

False

Spoiler

View attachment 109483

Mr. E

Spoiler

View attachment 109484

Pugwest

Spoiler

View attachment 109485

EDIT: Added spoilers

For some reason they CAN NOT agree on where the Mario Brothers should be.

I started dual-maining with Marth since the Mario Bros are simultaneously the most relevant matchups in my region and awful machups for Ike, so i was looking forward to seeing what the top Marths think of them, but whatever.

 

[Mario766]

Also to be honest I don't think Smashboards helping to determine seeding will go very wrong

seems like an okay idea, the Melee Gfaqs community frequently and maturely discusses guesses for seeding & the like for big deal Melee tournies and could probably provide decent input if they were ever asked. I don't think bias will be a huge problem

Melee also has a lot more to work off of and has a decent list in the MIOM standings.

For Smash 4 we have...nothing.

It's hard to come up with a top 10 list for EVO, let alone 32. People are putting a lot of variety into top 10 seeding, Kamemushi (Forgive me if I butchered that), Trela, Anti. There's so many people around top 10 that it's hard to even seed THAT properly and there's a lot of variables esp after the last two major events, GOML and Mexico Saga.

Some are

Is Void gonna be back to his consistent self? The last few events of his have been subpar by far.
Is M2K gonna show up like he did at GOML and shock everyone again?
What about this Japanese MegaMan who consistently does well in Japan. What about Japanese players in general and not doing super amazing at big american events outside of Ranai. Abadango got 4th last year but last year is a super outlier because customs.



Most people are putting the usual few at the top, but what about after that. That's the hard part and I don't think Smashboards is the best place to look for seeding by far.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Wait we get to vote on seeding?

 

[Mario766]

No, they are using Smashboards to give top 32 seeds, they'll use that to help seed top 32.

 

[Pancracio17]

dabuz made this

 

[Mario766]

Ike went from "Should win but hard" to undefined aka even. Interesting

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ike went from "Should win but hard" to undefined aka even. Interesting

From my experience this MU is very volatile and evenish. Rosa hates that Ike has a big sword and lots of kill power, while Ike hates that Rosa's Uair is a stupidly good juggle tool.

 

[Charoite]

I want to know why are slight advantage against rosa, and correctly if i am wrong but wasn't the in rosa favor?? what makes now the matchup even??

 

[Eugene Wang]

I want to know why are slight advantage against rosa, and correctly if i am wrong but wasn't the in rosa favor?? what makes now the matchup even??

took a level in metagame viability.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Mewtwo utterly craps on Luma and if played correctly Rosalina should be neutered the whole match.

 

[ぱみゅ]

RE: Bayonetta's neutral is not bad, but it is lackluster when compared to Top Tiers, hers is easily worse than at least Sheik, Cloud, Diddy, and Pikachu (and this one is important), so while it is not among the worst ones, it is definitely bad (***relatively***).

RE: ESAM's list is still pretty bad for being based almost entirely on Pikachu's matchups. He is not wrong in a lot of senses, but it's still a fatal flaw on its credibility.

RE: Community input on deciding the Top 32 might not be an entirely bad idea, they are mostly doing it for the viewers anyway.

RE: How is Megaman even to Rosalina? Honest question.

 

[Bowserboy3]

For some reason they CAN NOT agree on where the Mario Brothers should be.

I started dual-maining with Marth since the Mario Bros are simultaneously the most relevant matchups in my region and awful machups for Ike, so i was looking forward to seeing what the top Marths think of them, but whatever.

Regarding this, a lot of players who use Marth tend to feel Marth handles the Mario Bros. better than most characters. Once again, I feel False's chart is right on point, and is the most reliable, and again, that Mr. E's is the least reliable, but that's just me.

I dunno, but Mr. E's matchup chart to me seems really questionable; possibly the worst of the three. I respect Mr.E, but this matchup chart is iffy.

A lot of Marth players (myself included) seem to consider False the best Marth player out there. Heck, even his most recent video of False (Marth) v Void (Sheik), he shows us this. No other Marth player would have been able to beat Void's Sheik, at all. He uses all of Marth's tools at every part of the game. The most noticeable thing False does, is utilise Marth's walk at the correct moments, where the other Marth players either tend not to use it (Mr E), or use it in the wrong situations/very rarely (Pugwest).

Because of these reasons, and that False has shown he knows Marth better than the other two players, this makes me believe his matchup chart more than others.

Edit: For those interested, here is the video I mentioned above:

 

[Trifroze]

Flip jump isn't free, but what makes it good is that it lets you retreat out of strings earlier than jumps without posing the danger of being baited out like attacks do, provided that you do it towards the direction of offstage. Then tether to the ledge, regrab it a bunch of times with side b if you want to, and mix up ledge getup with all the regular options, drop back + mid air jump into an aerial / airdodge into an aerial / anything into flip jump etc. Getting to the ledge is safe because of flip jump and tether, and getting off the ledge is relatively safe because of the options you have. ZSS' aerial weaving, fast but not too fast of a fall speed and safe falling aerials help a ton.

Of course, but the disadvantage you're talking about is intrinsic to every light character, so it's pointless to mention (especially when the character you're bringing up isn't even a tournament staple.) How is "ZSS dies to Bowser at 50%" even remotely conducive for a good discussion? It just comes across as incredibly passive aggressive towards Bowser players for no good reason.

Disadvantage being intrinsic to lightness is irrelevant if that lightness is never mentioned in the first place, and it wasn't before I said that. It was my way of bringing up and emphasizing the important fact that ZSS is light, and anyone who takes offense to a joke like that is free to keep doing so. Maybe I'll add a trigger warning next time!

 

[sups48]

I want to know why are slight advantage against rosa, and correctly if i am wrong but wasn't the in rosa favor?? what makes now the matchup even??

Mewtwo's Fair destroys luma and Dtilt out spaces Rosa. Corrin's attacks sends luma off the stage at the right angle. Pikachu can get around luma pretty easily. Ive never really played lucario so I wouldn't know.

 

[verbatim]

RE: ESAM's list is still pretty bad for being based almost entirely on Pikachu's matchups.

It's described as an opinion-based list, a player's personal opinions being directly related to their tournament history is pretty logical.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

At this point the best character in Esams tier list is going to be Pika. He doesn't look at much data outside of the Pikachu stuff which makes his tier list mediocre.

 

[Greward]

Kamemushi's Mega Man matchup chart did list Rosalina as a disadvantage matchup, and it was a pretty optimistic one.

I'd say if the undefined chart was a slight advantage it would make more sense. Although it's good to finally see a matchup chart that doesn't overhype the character.

 

[PK Gaming]

Disadvantage being intrinsic to lightness is irrelevant if that lightness is never mentioned in the first place, and it wasn't before I said that. It was my way of bringing up and emphasizing the important fact that ZSS is light, and anyone who takes offense to a joke like that is free to keep doing so. Maybe I'll add a trigger warning next time!

E-enough! You are starting to anger me.

No but for real, I may have misread your tone and jumped to conclusions. My apologies.

 

[DblCrest]

dabuz made this

Kind of surprised Jiggz isn't in the 'Can you upair good' tier.

 

[C0rvus]

Did we all forget that Dabuz called Mega Man an even matchup a long while back? He's always thought that iirc.

And Puff has always had a surprisingly decent Rosa matchup. That and Falcon and a couple others aren't too bad.

 

[Solfiner]

I find it amusing that all three Marth MU charts has Shulk at different advantages/disadvantages. Shows how hard it is to make accurate charts for this stuff.