Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[54BR3 WU1F]

I really think that the buff for Diddy Kong was really annoying because now, it's extremely hard for me to beat a Diddy main and I think that he might be the next "Brawl Meta Knight" but I doubt that he'll be banned any time soon. Does anyone have any tips for beating a Diddy in comp?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Not main Falco.

 

[Jalil]

Dabuz put zss in the "better be better than your opponent" category and he's beaten nairo the last time they played in tournament. Is he sayin he's better than nairo ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Tizio Random]

I beg @Dabuz to explain me why he considers a bad match-up for Rosalina, I can't wrap my mind around it. The rest I think is on point.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I really think that the buff for Diddy Kong was really annoying because now, it's extremely hard for me to beat a Diddy main and I think that he might be the next "Brawl Meta Knight" but I doubt that he'll be banned any time soon. Does anyone have any tips for beating a Diddy in comp?

Diddy buff? Where can I get one?

Also diddy isn't anywhere near brawl mk lol

 

[Chalice]

I really think that the buff for Diddy Kong was really annoying because now, it's extremely hard for me to beat a Diddy main and I think that he might be the next "Brawl Meta Knight" but I doubt that he'll be banned any time soon. Does anyone have any tips for beating a Diddy in comp?

Diddy buffed?

Has 20DK finally come?

 

[Ethan7]

I really think that the buff for Diddy Kong was really annoying because now, it's extremely hard for me to beat a Diddy main and I think that he might be the next "Brawl Meta Knight" but I doubt that he'll be banned any time soon. Does anyone have any tips for beating a Diddy in comp?

Diddy buffs? You mean 1.1.0? Those buffs hardly counterbalanced all the nerfs before. Diddy isn't even close to Brawl MetaKnight.

Well, what gives you trouble when fighting Diddy? I don't think this is the best place to ask this but discuss the viability of a character, so you could try somewhere else.

 

[PK Gaming]

Not main Falco.

He can main Falco AND beat Diddy Kong.

Just needs to grind out the match up + not rely on miracle nerfs that won't happen.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He can main Falco AND beat Diddy Kong.

Just needs to grind out the match up + not rely on miracle nerfs that won't happen.

A Falco main will never consistently beat a Diddy main of equal/near equal skill consistently.

Same for many characters.

Did we forget how tiers work?

 

[Fenny]

I really think that the buff for Diddy Kong was really annoying because now, it's extremely hard for me to beat a Diddy main and I think that he might be the next "Brawl Meta Knight" but I doubt that he'll be banned any time soon. Does anyone have any tips for beating a Diddy in comp?

??????

In my experience, patience is key when fighting against Diddy mains. That banana's effectiveness in neutral is very real, and if you don't respect him because you want him dead quick then he'll pick your *** apart. Diddy light, can't kill consistently until later percents (not REALLY high, but relatively so) and isn't awfully hard to gimp once his Rocket Barrels are out, so as long as you keep his bananas in check (easier said than done) and fully capitalise on openings then you have a fighting chance.

Looks like you main Falco tho. That ground mobility makes me weep rivers rofl

 

[PK Gaming]

A Falco main will never consistently beat a Diddy main of equal/near equal skill consistently.

Same for many characters.

Did we forget how tiers work?

The user in question is very likely talking about low level play. It's definitely possible.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Low level play Falco beating Diddy?

Idk fam. He just has to sit on banana, mix in some dash grabs for a confirm and throw out the occasional dtilt at low level.

Falco takes some serious understanding of his normals, optimal ranges, how to play footsies/poke well, etc.

Like....just saying low level Falco doesnt even seem "right".

 

[Mario766]

Low level Diddy losing to Falco?

Using bananas and doing kill set-ups doesn't require any skill, so I doubt it.

 

[Jams.]

I don't know about you, but ZSS' "free disadvantage", is applying less and less as the game develops. It's just another option. An option that can be covered, or read and if you don't have awful mobility (i.e. hello high tiers) can be caught out.
Furthermore the development of "advantage" states of characters is making it apply less and less to, is ZSS flip jumping out of Mario's "free" 60% combos at low percent? No.
Is ZSS flip jumping away from Sheik doing the same thing? No.
Cloud? Definitely not. Up airs and nairs for days.

Moving towards the ledge with her isn't that great either.

"Oh I can't frame trap ZSS from a throw on my bad character, she has a free disadvantage state"
Are you focusing too hard on trying to punish ZSS before she flip jumps when you have a fair deal of time after she does so to do something? Like, Kirby players who know the match up are hunting her down, why can't you?

ZSS' landing options in disadvantage without flip jump are poor compared to most of the high tiers. It isn't Sonic abysmal, but it's no where near as good as Cloud dair/uair or Sheik bairing or nairing.

The Mario and Sheik example seemed like slight exaggerations to prove a point, but the Cloud example goes too far IMO. Cloud is not a character with incredibly long true combos, he's a juggle based character. He's getting maybe 3 uairs at best, usually 2, utilt x2 -> uair, or dair -> uair. After that it becomes a juggle situation. I believe ZSS is one of the best characters at escaping Cloud's juggles. Obviously it's not free because limit Cloud mobility + that uair and nair = unholy monstrosity, but it's a great deal easier for her than characters that just have to eat uair frame traps forever and then get ledge trapped for forever and a half.

Transitioning to ledge resets, why do you say that moving towards the ledge with her isn't great? I feel that she has some of the best ledge options in the game. In particular, the fact that tether only has 3 forced edge grab frames makes it very difficult to be in the proper position to get precise option coverage, and you don't get any breathing room after you've confirmed that they've grabbed the ledge. Once she's grabbed the ledge, she can make use of Flip Jump, her wall jump, and decent ledge hop aerials as well as the standard ledge options; you usually need some sort of read to catch her attempt to get off the ledge, since covering all her options is impossible.

dabuz made this

One important thing to note IMO that has kind of slipped under the radar.

Many posters in this thread have claimed that even post-patch does not have any bad MUs. Well, here is a credible source claiming that is a bad MU for Sheik. Makes sense IMO since this was one of Sheik's toughest matchups before the patch. She can still abuse Rosa's recovery, but the 50/50 was vital for her to secure more consistent kills at reasonable percents, and not having to deal with rage Luma. Fair nerfs also matter more in this MU than most MUs because Rosalina has lots of spacing tools around that range, and shieldgrabbing fair is easier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So Esam released the final part of his tier list, and basicially........

Angel Cortes didn't even need to come. Esam exposed himself.

Spoiler

Esam put Pikachu as #1 and Ness as #7

 

[Chalice]

Point me out if I'm wrong, but I don't think Esam's list is in order and they are just in categories

 

[Mario766]

That still puts Pikachu at top 4.

He also wants to call Mario a 45/55 when it's literally been the bane of EVERY Pikachu player, ESAM also loses hard to every Mario player. It isn't just a player thing, it's a character thing. He also talks about all these things like how Pikachu's recovery isn't exploitable.

A recovery move that pikachu HAS to commit to, loses to disjoints, severely extends his hurtbox, and has only two options, either one jolt or two...

It's exploitable. People should do it more often too. He also talks about kill confirms like that isn't the one thing Pikachu struggles in, if the kill confirms were true, they'd be done more often on an opponent who mixes up their DI. He can sigh every time Pikachu isn't put in top 10, but it's pretty convincing when the top Pikachu player isn't showing results for a "top 5 character"

 

[Wintermelon43]

Point me out if I'm wrong, but I don't think Esam's list is in order and they are just in categories

I think he mentioned in the first video that it's in order. Plus, Pikachu is still in top 4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok so basically ESAM proved he is a pikachu fanboy.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd yea.

No disrespect to Eric as a PERSON, but as a competitor the man has proven he is somewhat delusional.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That still puts Pikachu at top 4.

He also wants to call Mario a 45/55 when it's literally been the bane of EVERY Pikachu player, ESAM also loses hard to every Mario player. It isn't just a player thing, it's a character thing. He also talks about all these things like how Pikachu's recovery isn't exploitable.

A recovery move that pikachu HAS to commit to, loses to disjoints, severely extends his hurtbox, and has only two options, either one jolt or two...

It's exploitable. People should do it more often too. He also talks about kill confirms like that isn't the one thing Pikachu struggles in, if the kill confirms were true, they'd be done more often on an opponent who mixes up their DI. He can sigh every time Pikachu isn't put in top 10, but it's pretty convincing when the top Pikachu player isn't showing results for a "top 5 character"

I wouldn't call a recovery that can be done in a nearly infinite amount of ways "exploitable" or say it only has 2 options. Easily one of the best recoveries in the game. The Mario thing did piss me off though, the matchup is a 35:65 imo

 

[Mario766]

I wouldn't call a recovery that can be done in a nearly infinite amount of ways "exploitable" or say it only has 2 options. Easily one of the best recoveries in the game. The Mario thing did piss me off though, the matchup is a 35:65 imo

infinite ways?

He either goes over you, up-bs through you, uses the first jump to grab the ledge or uses the second jump to grab the ledge. Quick Attack is forced to do this or Pikachu will SD. There's strict timings if he wants the ledge, if he doesn't do it the first jump, he HAS to the second. That's when you punish it because it's a standard 2 frame with a strict cue ala teleports.

 

[Djent]

Yeah, there's nothing close about the way his combo game has developed.

Pika's recovery is pretty good (though one of the better chars at exploiting it is...Mario ). His disadvantage is probably the game state which has the most room for growth.

 

[PK Gaming]

Low level play Falco beating Diddy?

Idk fam. He just has to sit on banana, mix in some dash grabs for a confirm and throw out the occasional dtilt at low level.

Falco takes some serious understanding of his normals, optimal ranges, how to play footsies/poke well, etc.

Like....just saying low level Falco doesnt even seem "right".

Hmm, fair point. Falco definitely isn't a character you can do well without being good at the game.

Ah shoot, looks like I lost this argument

 

[Vyrnx]

I mean Pikachu's recovery is easily one of the best and least exploitable in the game lol. It's incredibly flexible with all four of his specials giving him distance/coverage/stalling, basically any angle he wants, can wall jump, ledge snap, go on stage, go under the stage. The amazing distance on his up b and ability to angle (or basically do whatever the hell he wants off stage) means he can wait a lingering hitbox and then start his up b, or he can go around hitboxes, or again, stall, go on stage, go under the stage. He has no issues at all off stage.

If he does get hit, nothing is going to happen--it just resets the situation where most characters have a very small likelihood of hitting Pikachu. He's not ever gonna get gimped, or take a substantial amount of damage, and he most likely won't take any damage. No opponent is going to go off stage and surrender stage control because there is just no reason with Pika's recovery being so good.

Of the issues Pika has it isn't his recovery at all. It's like saying that you can punish Sheik's or G&W's ledge snap every time, or... idk, this is just kinda ridiculous lol

 

[blackghost]

Gatekeeper:
Fantastic, but at least 1-2 really bad match-ups:

ESAM Opinions:

"Male Corrin > Female Corrin"
"Bayonetta's neutral is lackluster"
"People were bad against Bayonetta"
"

to be fair he did prove his claims on bayo soundly beating her prepatch "OP" form and easily escaping her combos. he forced a switch from tyroy. and he has been saying for a while people never tried to learn how to fight her. watching that set if you sdi and di on point (ad top players should) its hard for her to do anything.

 

[Mario766]

Sheik's ledge snap also can avoid the 2 frame, or has a disjointed, invincible on start-up hitbox. G&W also has a big disjoint on up-b, intangible for a long time (5-13), and if you get hit it sends you flying because of 60 BKB/80 KBG. Quick Attack has neither, so it's easier to punish in general.

I also never said go off-stage, just 2 frame. Free damage, and some characters can set up for kills off it like Fox.

 

[DblCrest]

Sheesh, can we just make discussion on 'Esam's overly optimistic Pika opinions' a red topic?

 

[Mario766]

Only if we make Zero's videos also a red topic.

 

[PK Gaming]

Shaya was straight up named dropped in ESAM's video

I wonder if he reads this thread. lol

 

[|RK|]

Only if we make Zero's videos also a red topic.

ZeRo's videos spark some interesting discussion, though. Ryu's place in the meta and Sonic's optimal playstyle, for example. ESAM's Pikachu opinions are just... unfounded.

I don't think either should be red topics, though.

 

[Nobie]

Jigglypuff isn't in the "all you need is up air" section of Dabuz's tier list because Jiggs is by design one of the hardest characters to juggle consistently.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Shaya was straight up named dropped in ESAM's video

I wonder if he reads this thread. lol

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he did

Sheik's ledge snap also can avoid the 2 frame, or has a disjointed, invincible on start-up hitbox. G&W also has a big disjoint on up-b, intangible for a long time (5-13), and if you get hit it sends you flying because of 60 BKB/80 KBG. Quick Attack has neither, so it's easier to punish in general.

I also never said go off-stage, just 2 frame. Free damage, and some characters can set up for kills off it like Fox.

You cannot consistently 2frame most recoveries, and Pikachu doesn't have to go to the ledge at all. He has the options to go directly onto the stage or go under it. His recovery is nearly impossible to consistently mess with unless you're Mario

 

[DblCrest]

|RK|
We've gone through the same song and dance regarding Esam's optimism regarding Pikachu. So I don't really see any point of it when it's brought up every damn time. =/

Nobie
Even for Rosa's Upair halos? XD

 

[Matt11111]

So Esam released the final part of his tier list, and basicially........

Angel Cortes didn't even need to come. Esam exposed himself.

Spoiler

Esam put Pikachu as #1 and Ness as #7

I can't even.

 

[verbatim]

Ok so basically ESAM proved he is a pikachu fanboy.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd yea.

No disrespect to Eric as a PERSON, but as a competitor the man has proven he is somewhat delusional.

If you don't want to disrespect people you shouldn't call them delusional.

The video is very markedly advertised as HIS OPINION. I might not agree with some of them, but I can at the very least listen to his explanation and understand why he has those opinions.

 

[Kofu]

|RK|
We've gone through the same song and dance regarding Esam's optimism regarding Pikachu. So I don't really see any point of it when it's brought up every damn time. =/

Nobie
Even for Rosa's Upair halos? XD

Puff has greater aerial flexibility overall than Rosalina, so yes.

 

[blackghost]

ZeRo's videos spark some interesting discussion, though. Ryu's place in the meta and Sonic's optimal playstyle, for example. ESAM's Pikachu opinions are just... unfounded.

I don't think either should be red topics, though.

zero opinions throughout this gae have been very off most of the timeregardless of where esam put pikachu it would look bias either for (as in esam list) or underselling your main when everyone knows the are both good. *looks at zero* i never pay attention when players rate tier own mains it can be interesting to hear but i kinda just put it off to the side

 

[Matt11111]

If you don't want to disrespect people you shouldn't call them delusional.

The video is very markedly advertised as HIS OPINION. I might not agree with some of them, but I can at the very least listen to his explanation and understand why he has those opinions.

I haven't bothered to watch the whole videos, because just looking at the lengths of the videos makes me think that he takes way too long to get to the point.

 

[Charoite]

If people could consistently attack the opponent in the 2 frame window, then , should never comeback to the stage at top level, but they do pikachu problem are recovery unless is against mario.

 

[C0rvus]

In the interest of playing devil's advocate a bit, I think that ESAM may have the right idea with his character. What I mean by that is his view of Pikachu being so high has a positive impact on his mindset. He's not too far off, either. He said himself that Pikachu doesn't lose to any of the perceived top tier characters (Sheik, Diddy, Cloud, even ZSS, Rosalina, Fox) So the character clearly has some relevance in high/top level play. (He does lose to a few high tiers like Mario, Ness, and Meta Knight, which is relevant as well. Corrin covers those three quite nicely, though, I gotta say.)

So, as a player you can look at this spread and think, well, Pikachu is okay, or you can think like ESAM, "Nothing should be in my way." Even if his MUs with top tiers are mostly even, he realistically has a very good shot at taking on any of the top threats in the metagame. That's if you don't let losing to some slightly worse characters get in your way, and he chooses not to. It's the better way to play, honestly.

The issue lies in the fact that he takes his warped view of the character and shares it outwardly. He's an authority on the game and on Pikachu, so his opinions get more traction than even he might be expecting. That or he legit thinks Pika is top tier. What a nut. I do think Pikachu can be considered an anti-meta character again.