Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

If the Pits' are high tier than your criteria for high tier to too lenient imo.

And Dabuz could very well be right about Olimar. He's already far from fantastic, has a relatively small playerbase, and not many places to improve. He just has unfortunate properties; somehow he's light but has bad disadvantage, his moves have item priority so they lose to everything. Kinda sad tbh, I love Pikmin.

It's been scientifically proven that Pit is mid tier normally but becomes high tier when combined with iDOLM@STER merch.

 

[A10theHero]

We ended up talking a lot about that combo A10theHero
While ESAM's description of how to execute it wasn't correct (and avoidable; basically the part where you have to get past your initial dash to rar jump rather than b-reverse midair); which was what my post originally debunked, the more refined alternative choices does seem to allow it to be real under near frame perfection conditions.
Did you end up figuring out whether or not DI behind Pika from up-throw disallowed it ? (Although that DI allows you to go for dthrow thunder instead, but we didn't see if the %s for those work out well?)

Aerial Acceleration is great and is an important stat, but not if you have non-existent max aerial mobility (you get to move at max speed very quickly in either direction, but it's still not moving that fast in either direction).

Actually, Up Throw to RAR Thunder can be true. It'll always be at least one frame slower than Up Throw to Turnaround Thunder because of the turnaround on the ground though. But there is no skid after the turnaround since the jump will happen immediately after Pikachu turns around. But still, that extra 1+ frame can make a huge difference depending on the situation. So Turnaround Thunder is objectively better.
Forcing the Pikachu to turnaround to chase the DI adds an extra frame like doing a RAR. So, again, this can make a difference, but it's more likely to have an effect at the lower end of the range. For example, here's it working on Bayonetta at 125% even with a forced turnaround on the ground:

To be honest, the percent range for which the combo works is not as important as the frame leniency. For example, with Bayonetta, the Thunder can connect between 115% to 147%. However, at 115%, you have ~22 frames after the up throw to input the combo before Bayonetta can airdodge through Bat Within while at 142%, you have ~30 frames. Depending on the person and how fast they can input the controls, 22 frames might not be enough. So for them it wouldn't be true. For others, it might be sufficient. Thus, forcing a turnaround would then leave the Pika player with only 21 and 29 frames to do the rest of the combo at those percents. So again, this could make a difference, but it'll vary in magnitude. Some people who could input the combo in just 22 frames now wouldn't be able to successfully perform it at 115%.

And yeah, you're right about the aerial mobility. I was just thinking in terms of burst movement, since even with a low airspeed, moving quickly in the air for a short while like with a short hop is still possible, so that's why I said that, but you're correct.

 

[Y2Kay]

@Nintenpro is it true that Elexiao hasn't lost a French tourney since March? I've done little digging but I don't know for sure.

 

[meleebrawler]

Quite the bold statement you posted here. I wonder how accurate it will be in a few years.

Anyone here a little more optimistic on Olimar's future?

Something I don't hear a lot about Olimar's disadvantage is using winged pikmin as essentially an extra jump that can be stalled. With good timing, this can let Olimar turn the tables with even the smallest of windows via a fastfalled nair or dair that can be done at any time. Should they attempt to shield instead, he can just float away to get some distance, provided he's offloaded a couple pikmin first. The worst case scenario here is the opponent jumping up to hit him, but then he can start simply airdodging instead, giving at least a decent 50-50 to return to the ground. A well-placed whistle can counter any attack of course, but requires precise timing.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I wonder when people are going to wise up and stop trying to fight Ryu up close.
Aside from some of the Texas residents I keep seeing people with absolutely NO clue how to play the MU(i.e Larry Lurr) get absolutely smacked for trying to play too aggressively.
One can look at his kurogane page and you should immediately realize that trying to outbox the character with what might be the best frame data, combos that do 25%-Kill, and the ability to kill you from 50-100 off safe tilts is an absolutely absurd idea.
Just camp the guy out and PP/Pivot Grab his aerial approaches while respecting the walk. Ryu mains claim you can only run away for so long, but running is far better than what people are doing now.

 

[Dabuz]

Something I don't hear a lot about Olimar's disadvantage is using winged pikmin as essentially an extra jump that can be stalled. With good timing, this can let Olimar turn the tables with even the smallest of windows via a fastfalled nair or dair that can be done at any time. Should they attempt to shield instead, he can just float away to get some distance, provided he's offloaded a couple pikmin first. The worst case scenario here is the opponent jumping up to hit him, but then he can start simply airdodging instead, giving at least a decent 50-50 to return to the ground. A well-placed whistle can counter any attack of course, but requires precise timing.

That's an option other Oli players don't do because every Olimar is bad...BUTTTTT certain characters (Fox, Sheik) with fast or really big hitboxes can just swipe away without fear

 

[L9999]

I wonder when people are going to wise up and stop trying to fight Ryu up close.
Aside from some of the Texas residents I keep seeing people with absolutely NO clue how to play the MU(i.e Larry Lurr) get absolutely smacked for trying to play too aggressively.
One can look at his kurogane page and you should immediately realize that trying to outbox the character with what might be the best frame data, combos that do 25%-Kill, and the ability to kill you from 50-100 off safe tilts is an absolutely absurd idea.
Just camp the guy out and PP/Pivot Grab his aerial approaches while respecting the walk. Ryu mains claim you can only run away for so long, but running is far better than what people are doing now.

Same principle of why people jumped to get killed by Bayonetta. Not many people have the patience or will to play "lame." The reason Ryu players say that it's because MUs are not BnW and Ryu can impose his presence by many means.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Same principle of why people jumped to get killed by Bayonetta. Not many people have the patience or will to play "lame." The reason Ryu players say that it's because MUs are not BnW and Ryu can impose his presence by many means.

one would think that when you're at 70 against a 120 rage ryu a person would naturally stop taking stupid risks and trying to close out the stock asap. that's just bad Smash 4.
guess not, though.
we'll just keep seeing Sheiks trying to beat him without using needles and Foxes play the MU without touching the gun at all.
reminds me of Melee Fox players that are so stubborn they refuse to use lasers vs Puff/Peach even though the MU is infinitely harder without them.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's been scientifically proven that Pit is mid tier normally but becomes high tier when combined with iDOLM@STER merch.

Pretty much lol.

Actually Earth won something called Nagobura the other day, though I think the only other player of note was his waifu...

Still, hope he goes to EVO and doesn't get some horrendous bracket luck like the last time.

 

[Radical Larry]

I mean hell, even I know to make sure to keep my space as a Link player, and I only go in when Ryu's trying to recover or if I know I will hit the opponent. Link's grab against Ryu is his best friend, and so is Ryu whiffing a Focus Attack. If one of those two things happen, Ryu's kind of out there to get bodied. I would always assume that, after a D-Throw, Ryu would try using a Focus Attack, use D-Air or N-Air or jump and then use D-Air. What'll happen is that I will instead just wait Ryu out after getting a safe distance. Oh, and Bombs can work quite a lot for him, but if you can swap your strategies with Link mid-play, Ryu might not be able to do much against you if you play your cards right.

Spoiler: The MU that can be more Unpredictable than Me

The Link v. Ryu MU can be a very shifting type of MU. Depending on how you go against Ryu and if you play against Ryu right, you could see three different outcomes for the MU. One outcome is that Ryu wins 55:45. Another, they're even. The last, Link wins 55:45. Again, this can be contributed to if the Link player can develop a special type of strategy against Ryu or not. This MU may seem all "Black and White" at first, but it's a very, very colorful and unpredictable MU since you have two characters who are very...well...unpredictable depending on the player.

 

[FeelMeUp]

i don't buy the link ryu matchup being even.
why would Link, a character that struggles with characters that have good frame data getting close to him, have an even matchup with what I see as the strongest character that has the best frame data in the game?

 

[Aaron1997]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

WNF is going to have a stacked bracket with some top players

ZeRo
ANTI
K9
IMHIP
Angbad
MrConcon
WiiGi

 

[Chalice]

To the running away from tactic discussion:

I would like to point out that does crap loads of damage so if you're planning on running away and play lame because you are so scared then so will the Ryu player. They'll get their damage and laugh at you while you run away. GG win by time out.

Also, do you really want to be listening to a musclehead yelling "HADOKEN!!!" for 6 minutes just because you won't go in? This is exactly how Ryu plays in Street Fighter: Throw Hadokens at you until you respond. If you don't do anything, then take the Hadokens/chip damage but know that any competent Ryu will be prepared for your options which is really only to block or jump and they are waiting for that jump.

Hit and run is probably the most optimal way to beat Ryu if you're THAT scared of dying which really leaves us only with a few characters that can pull this off reliably. (Ex. )

I haven't even gotten back to the whole point of Ryu: Cornering you and taking stage control. You want to run away and not want to fight against Ryu's godly CQC/Kill power? Cool, lemme just take up the whole stage and set up edge guards.

I could go on but I'll leave it right here for now

 

[FeelMeUp]

hadoken as a projectile is entirely mediocre as a whole and the fact that you used that as pretty much the only answer for people camping Ryu tells me the strategy is entirely effective.
If I run from you and decide to just shoot things there is nothing Ryu can do aside from run at me. he's not going to shoot back. the way hadoken works in SF doesn't actually carry over well in Smash because of how much more mobile characters are.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, do you really want to be listening to a musclehead yelling "HADOKEN!!!" for 6 minutes just because you won't go in? This is exactly how Ryu plays in Street Fighter: Throw Hadokens at you until you respond. If you don't do anything, then take the Hadokens/chip damage but know that any competent Ryu will be prepared for your options which is really only to block or jump and they are waiting for that jump.

Chip damage doesn't exist in Smash lol. You can literally perfect shield every blue hadoken and Ryu achieves nothing (and plenty of moves eat red fireball for free)

Almost every other relevant character outcamps Ryu.

 

[Chalice]

You're missing the point.

If you're only plan is to run away and win by time out and not go in for the kill then you're easier to read. That already puts you at risk for eating a +30% combo. And again, you give up stage control because your only safe options is to jump over Ryu or catch him in his shield and grab him. Ryu players that know this will not use Ryu's over-committal jump. They will walk and wait for your attempt to get out of the corner. They'll power-shield and spot-dodge your grab attempt.

That said, I never said Ryu is uncampable. He is REALLY campable. But I believe it is a misconception that you can run away forever. Effective strategy? Yes, but human error can be a *****

 

[Ghostbone]

There's a difference between going for a timeout and camping. They're not one and the same.

Camping ryu and playing neutral outside of his boxing range really neuters him as a character

 

[Rizen]

i don't buy the link ryu matchup being even.
why would Link, a character that struggles with characters that have good frame data getting close to him, have an even matchup with what I see as the strongest character that has the best frame data in the game?

Link's bad MUs aren't about having slower frame data but rather if the opponent doesn't have to play Link's game. Link wants to wall off the opponent, zone with projectiles, get combos going and punish. When Link has trouble is when the other character can break this for whatever reason and force Link to play his weak game. Ryu has to play Link's game, he's very good at it and gets incredible reward but he can't get around playing how Link wants to play in neutral.
Link has a long sword, Zair, bombs and projectiles that outcamp hydoukens. Link also has several good multiple hitting moves like Fair to threaten focus attack. Ryu is a tall character without great burst options so Link can use his tools (as opposed to say, vs Sheik who BFs, transcendent needles and dances circles around Link).

 

[Hero_2_All]

Here, have a picture:

• Shoutouts to @Das Koopa for the results numbers I stole.
• I actually took the popularity data going back through March 15th (1.1.5) except for Bayonetta, which I extrapolated based on her current ~2.0% usage rate since May 20th (1.1.6). I felt going back farther for popularity values added more accuracy than it jeopardized.
• Sorry it's just text and no image icons. That stuff takes a lot of time.
• I deliberately avoided using numerical labels since they would be meaningless artifacts of our sampling techniques. Besides, it's logarithmic (base 2) so you can read and interpret it more clearly.

Ya know this great and all, but it has an underlying variable that can, and probably did cause the large discrepancies. That variable is the quality of a character's player base. For example characters with more concentrated ratio of more skilled players to lower lvl players are much higher on this chart. Ie Sheik. Yet, then you look at mewtwo who has a smaller amount of top players compare to the size of his player base and you can see him as way lower than he should be. One thing that needs to be remembered when looking at this is that low to mid lvl players enter these tournies too, and will pretty much never show up on the results. If you don't have a proportional number of high lvl reps to balance out the lower lvl reps you will show up poorly on a chart like this. IE, someone like Corrin who has a new player base with allot of mid to low regional reps, but few high lvl solo reps has a large disparity. This may account for allot of the discrepancies on this chart. Probably a better way would to include only players who are considered to be high or top lvl, and also the popularity of the character among these higher lvl players. The problem with this chart is that it includes allot of players that are no were close to providing the results that are on the other side. If there was no players who entered a tourney that had a decent chance of achieving the results then they are just dragging a character down disproportionately to its top lvl viability. For example if most the top sheik mains were on hiatus for a month and we got an influx of random mid lvl sheiks. Her popularity goes up and her # results down (which messes up her slope ratio), but if you remove that influx and look only at the remaining high to top lvl sheiks then you can see it as a tier list should be... at the highest lvls of play. Also in the previous example popularity would go down due to the hiatus, but not including lower lvl players, and # results aswell, but the slope ratio of it would likely stay similar. Really the X and Y here are way out of proportion here as one axis is higher lvl results, while the other axis includes a sample size from all lvls of skill. If we are looking only at high lvl results, should we not also only look at the high lvl popularity?

 

[Mr. Johan]

People need to recognize that once Ryu jumps, he's going that way until he lands. Or, if he FADCs, that's still a 29 frame startup before he can backpedal.

I dunno, maybe it's just something Robin intuitively has in this MU. Once I stopped confronting Ryu with Fairs and instead kept max spacing with SH Bairs, and rolled whenever he jumped when I was in a corner, the MU got phenomenally better to work out (not necessarily "easier").

 

[ぱみゅ]

I dunno, maybe it's just something Robin intuitively has in this MU. Once I stopped confronting Ryu with Fairs and instead kept max spacing with SH Bairs, and rolled whenever he jumped when I was in a corner, the MU got phenomenally better to work out (not necessarily "easier").

I find Robin's design really interesting.
They are one of the slowest characters, yet having a ton of useful tools, and that makes it so Robin MUST adapt and draw a strategy over the opponent on when and how to use them, sometimes even very specific to the matchup.
Some are easier (Ganon, Bowser), some feel impossible (Fox, Pikachu), and others are just different yet effective (Sheik, Cloud).
It's like Robin was designed by a genius.... who couldn't think on a decent recovery to make them viable.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco seems to be a character that's designed to have a bunch of pratfalls and jab locks for combo extending, I can see his punishes being more refined by his mains...

Where do you get that from? The only move that trips consistently is Reflector; everything else that can, doesn't because they're too strong like I'm pretty damn sure both his Dtilt and Down Smash have trip rates at least in Brawl, but Dtilt sends you up and Down Smash sends you flying out. Jab locks... If you're referring to the jab 1, jab 2 to jab 1 again like Fox does, that's just DI-able and not really strong on Falco since his recovery on both jab 1 and jab 2 are high enough he can't get much like Fox can and could. If you're talking about locks or resets* where after a missed tech, you hit them forcing them to bounce back up again, they're capable by every character, but done in different ways, and characters can definitely capitalize on them like Mario's more famous reset of jab to charged Side Smash. Resets are situational and I don't think any character should have the ability to cause resets consistently (to a ridiculous degree). Mixups on the other hand, like Ganondorf's Flame Choke to be simple, are fine.

Did you go through Pikazono's (@sectorCZ) Twitter? That's one thing that pops up since he has a ton of Vines of him doing wacky stuff with Falco.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Spoiler: Pikazono info w/ some Anragon

Pikazono's pretty much the only Japanese Falco player I know by name and that's because SHI-G tends to have tags under romaji instead of leaving it kanji -- it is kanji, right? -- like tamisuma.jp, formerly known as terminalkai, does. There are a ton of Falco players on tamisuma.jp, but I can't read kanji, so I'd have to somehow translate them and butcher the hell out of their names. Massive reason why I dare not to write down their names for the notable Falco players thread despite really wanting to. Other reason is that some of them aren't Falco mains, but play a mean Falco like MASA who's a Ness? main. Anyway, Pikazono's a good Falco player who makes use of reverse jump-canceled Up Smashes which I have not seen any other Falco player use after 1.1.4 buffing Falco's Up Smash. It gives a little more distance and it always makes sure the second, strong hit is in front which is kind of good since it's deceptive by lasting 8 frames. That or he just styles which might be a thing... His movement is really good which seems like a common Japanese (Falco) thing as the only notable players I'd say has movement like Pikazono is Anragon, France's best Falco to my knowledge, and Cyro. Keitaro's movement is a bit... rougher than theirs... Doesn't mean Keitaro's not good; it's just in Falco's case, you really need good movement to deal with neutral and mid-range. If you want a more "creditable" source saying that, Anragon did say this: https://twitter.com/EVK_Anragon/status/739386169222389760. I harp on good movement so much since, yes, it's a big part of Falco's gameplay, but imagine good movement on any other character. I firmly believe good movement is the one of the first things a player should work on. If you can make Falco, a slow character look pretty fast and slippery, imagine a faster character or a character with access to good B-reverses. ZeRo's Diddy, anyone? I really find it waste when I see average to good players not being able to move well. It looks so uncomfortable too.

Also, if anyone is curious, Anragon and Pikazono's gameplay are up on YouTube, but theirs aren't as "recent" as Daybreak, Kato, Keitaro, Osiris, or the other Falco players. And some of theirs are also weird like 1 of Pikazono's sets at Shulla-bra V -- I think it's V; I checked for a challonge and it doesn't seem to "exist" -- has an audio desync and cuts off before you can tell who won at all. Fortunately, Pikazono also has a channel, so if you just want to watch his content, feel free -- they're also recent enough where you see him use reversed JC'd Up Smashes. Pikazono's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJHH_3ioBgQH-0wojIGEFXA.

*Reset is as defined on Shoryuken: "An attack that knocks the opponent out of the air back onto his feet, 'resetting' his position". Smash calls them locks or even jab locks which becomes nonsensical when other move like Ftilt are used since in some games of Smash like in Brawl, you could lock a person in an inescapable lock e.g. Falco's laser lock in Brawl. Still difficult to do, but Smash was able to extend it further. Pretty sure once you hit someone once in other fighting games, they only pop by up once instead of 3 like in Smash 4 or "forever" in other games.

... but if he doesn't get some kind of Mew2 overhaul or a top player pushing his meta, he's going to be in obscure limbo.

You're gonna have to be specific on "Mew2 overhaul". If you mean boosting his ground speed immensely which Roy also got from Melee to Smash 4, it would bring a problem of what would happen to Fox's niche. If you brought Falco's run speed from 1.472 to +1.8, I wouldn't be surprised if Fox ends up as a weaker, slightly faster Falco. Extreme exaggeration since Falco of course doesn't have Fox's confirms, but some of them might be due to lower speed. It's the implication that at lower levels of play and on a face level, Falco would have more advantages than Fox if he was much faster. This is helped by Falco not having a "gimmick" like Roy does. If Roy had the same gimmick as Marth, so tipper sweet-spots instead of sour-spots, I'd be willing to bet Marth would be completely pointless.

If you're talking about refining his niche like what happened to Ike, Marth, and Mewtwo. That's easier to do since it doesn't invade another character's niche which is Fox's since Falco is the only other "shoto" Star Fox character -- it would be bad if either of them were pointless. Falco, to me, is one part a projectile zoner who stands his ground from afar knowing he can't speed his way in like Fox or even Mario can, so he forces approaches like how Guile, Nash, or Ryu would in Street Fighter. The other part, which is done well and isn't in need of changes, is a character who has good close-range game to combat approaches; this comes from his good air-to-air and ground-to-air aerials -- key note here --, anti-airs jab, Utilt -- kinda needs you to be directly above him --, angled up Ftilt, his invincible, Somersault Shell Up Smash, and sometimes even Side Smash which is transcendent. Falco really shouldn't be a rushdown character or a zoner who also approaches (while zoning). Can he? Yeah, but with how he did it, it was overwhelming for a lot of characters and players in Brawl and Melee. This isn't helped with how projectiles have always been a problem in Smash. If he could, it should be more limited like Ken can zone if he needs to, but when you stop zoning back or whatever, he just rushes in to pressure you. Falco could pull that off, but that seems more like a Fox and even a Wolf thing. Considering that, Fox is actually the Ken to Falco's Ryu.

Spoiler: FWoT (Falco Wall of Text)

Anyway, the part that isn't done well, is the force approach by zoning part of Falco. Without that, Falco is forced into a position where he doesn't have an actual answer to neutral. The key note I said: "good air-to-air and ground-to-air aerials", is, along with his slower movement, a reason why Falco can't ignore his projectile like Cloud, Fox, or Mario can and just move in to try and pressure with aerials. Falco's aerials aren't built for jump-ins or air-to-ground meetings like Fox's; Falco's aerials have short, horizontal range and they're definitely not going to make his Dair into a crossup, divekick to help out with that. They're meant more for catching opponents doing poor aerial approaches or in the case of Bair, punishing them hard for poor decisions and ending up behind Falco. Thing is it's pretty much fine for Falco or any other character to not have good jump-ins, but then you need to figure out how they deal with neutral and mid-range. Falco's "answer" to that is movement-based neutral where he lacks the mobility and the moves to work that. It ends up being barebones compared to Captain Falcon, Fox, and Little Mac. It also forces Falco to play as, ironically, a rushdown character who tries to pressure by staying close to you all the time, but he simply does not have the mobility to do that. Most of the cast can outrun him and if they can't, they can abuse the fact his neutral is like that like Triple D and Zelda who just wait and have so much time to plan out or just react to his poor approach.

The go-to fix to this is lower recovery on Blaster. Problem with that: even in its current state, it's still difficult for players, especially lower-level players, to deal with it. People panic when they get hit and/or are in hit stun. Falco can repeatedly put you into that state which in the long run, is completely pointless since Smash is knockback-based and not damage-based like in other fighting games. So, take out its ability to fire continuously. Other problem: Blaster just became a generic projectile with set knockback being its only unique thing. Compared to Fox's rapid fire damage, Star Fox-like laser Blaster and Wolf's has a melee hitbox Blaster, Falco's would be a Fox Blaster that can't fire repeatedly, does set knockback instead of regular knockback like Wolf's, lacks Wolf's better hitbox, and lacks a melee hitbox like Wolf's. Compare that to every other projectile and Falco's would be this generic, but wholly practical which seems like a thing the developers don't really want unless it's intended like Mario's the Ryu in terms of design and not gameplay which some have said the Pits are more like, so it makes sense for Mario to not be spectacular or quirky in any way. Anyway, for competitive players, Falco having a practical, but generic projectile wouldn't "matter" to them. Falco's style comes more from his combos than whatever tricks he can pull with his projectile which is more of a Duck Hunt, Link, arguably Lucario, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Samus, Toon Link, and Villager thing. It would only matter that for Falco, the ability to zone would push his neutral from bad to average and from movement-based to movement and projectile-based -- more flexible and has options. Falco with the ability to zone would probably be mid-tier at best. With that and boosting his run speed to 1.6 wouldn't do much as well. Average run speed is pretty much a, "Why can't he have average run speed?", instead of, "Why can't Falco be as fast as Fox?" It's just a quality of life buff. He'd still lack KO confirms, the close-range shield pressure found on characters like Sheik, really good mobility, and, most of all, abusive or over-tuned options which I would only say is Limit Break Cross Slash. You would have to do a crapton of insane changes to make Falco at least high tier and the easiest way is to break him which happened in Brawl and Melee or anyone who can edit movesets and likes messing around. Extreme example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_WFGDEcnVY, and not extreme example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaU2v83ajY. Come on, don't tell me that when you could mod stuff, you didn't start making broken stuff in any game just for fun?

I think he should've kept side b shortening, it was a nice tool to cover ground in Brawl.

If he could do that, then Fox should too just because. Why it was removed, I don't know why...

I'd rather see Falco actually lose distance on Falco Phantasm, but also have that affect its recovery, cooldown that is. With half its distance, they could lower the recovery on it, so Falco would have a really good burst movement and the hitbox would cover its entire distance. The problem: Falco's horizontal recovery just shot down to Little Mac territory; half of Falco Phantasm's distance is about a fourth of Final Destination. Then again, Falco's recovery sucks, so why not make his on-stage game even better? Falco Phantasm has decent recovery considering it, like Fox Illusion, are around 70 frame commitments. As it stands, aerial Phantasm has 49 recovery frames and ground has 43; Fox Illusion has 49 aerial and ground. I didn't count the active frames since it's a bit weird when you consider they're dashing forward and the people can be hit "anywhere" like how a projectile works rather than a regular hit. Also, because I'm treating them as burst movements right now. Just drop the recovery by 5 frames if you really want to know their "true" recovery.

Thing is that Phantasm has a shorter hitbox, half its travel, raises Falco's hurtbox because of his pose, and moves slower than Fox Illusion, but makes this up by having slightly lower startup at 18 instead of 21, does 7% or 6% on airborne targets, and can spike airborne targets. Not asking it should have half its recovery if its distance is halved since it could be really stupid despite its relatively high startup; aerial would have about 25 frames and ground would have 19 which is Ganondorf Up Smash recovery. As a burst movement, this could turn it into something like K''s Blackout, Laura's Linear Movement, Ryu's FADC, or Vanessa's... something... I don't know what hers is called. Basically, a command dash with shorter range and recovery instead of longer range and recovery. Outside of Ryu, I don't think anyone has a burst movement with short range and recovery... Bowser Jr. and Luigi don't really count since they can vary their distance unlike Ryu who's set to a distance with FADC.

Aerial Acceleration is great and is an important stat, but not if you have non-existent max aerial mobility (you get to move at max speed very quickly in either direction, but it's still not moving that fast in either direction).

Pikachu still has high ground speed, so that Pikachu can run, jump, and kinda be relatively fast in the air. Palutena does this as well. The weird thing is that if Smash 4 does have this value which it probably has, characters might have different initial air speeds from their jumps. I think the one of the values that affects it is "Ground to Air Jump Momentum Multiplier" which is described as "the amount of horizontal momentum from the ground that transfer into the air when jumping." There's also "Jump H Initial Velocity" where "H" means horizontal and "Jump H Maximum Velocity". I don't know if those 2 are related to "Ground to Air Jump Maximum Velocity", but it might like a stationary jump wouldn't have any momentum, but a "moving" jump would. This is from Melee which lacks some of the stuff I'm talking about, but it's there: http://opensa.dantarion.com/wiki/Attributes_(Melee).

Let's say that Pikachu has a high ground to air jump momentum multiplier With how fast Pikachu runs, Pikachu can chase quickly on the ground and when jumping, transfer its momentum and keep or start with "high" air speed. Similarly, I think Captain Falcon might have this... Dude freaking sprints after all. In contrast, someone like Ryu might have low ground to air jump velocity which would explain even more why Ryu feels so sluggish when jumping. I don't know and I don't really want to talk about something I really don't know. It would be amazing if more movement value was made available.

So that I don't look like a liar, this is Pikachu's attributes in PM.

Spoiler: Incoming large image!

Yes, it's Smash Attacks!; I didn't figure out why attributes aren't showing up on Dantarion's OpenSA2, but if I could, I'd say use that instead since you can view projectile data more easily.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I find Robin's design really interesting.
They are one of the slowest characters, yet having a ton of useful tools, and that makes it so Robin MUST adapt and draw a strategy over the opponent on when and how to use them, sometimes even very specific to the matchup.
Some are easier (Ganon, Bowser), some feel impossible (Fox, Pikachu), and others are just different yet effective (Sheik, Cloud).
It's like Robin was designed by a genius.... who couldn't think on a decent recovery to make them viable.

Robin's basically got the power and range of a superheavy, but without the gigantic hurtbox that goes along with it. He gets comboed and strung along fairly easily, but it takes a bit more effort to get the sequence on him started. To compensate, his ground speed and jump squat are among the slowest, and the kit itself is on a count limit.

There is no way Levin aerials would be as powerful as they are if Robin got to use them more than eight at a time.

I still think the Elwind drift multiplier was the low-key best buff Robin got. Even more than Checkmate.

 

[Aaron1997]

While everyone is ResidentSleeper right now ANTI joins Nairo, Larry and Ally as the players to beat ZeRo. ZeRo is going to have to pick up a Secondary for Mario because nothings working. Even Cloud

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik probably isnt consistent enough at killing for Zero's liking.

 

[Trifroze]

I hope this wasn’t an attempt at an objective review either.

He lacks good mobility? One of the best air accelerations in the game, 12th best walking speed, 15th best running speed isn’t good? Of course, he has a very low air speed, but as people have said in this thread before, air acceleration is much more important since it gives more burst mobility. Then there’s also that F14 initial dash animation. That is actually pretty bad. At least he has a F2 air dodge and one of the best rolls and spotdodges in the game. But I guess, all this considered, that still counts as bad mobility?

And he actually has decent follow-ups at higher percents. Quick Attack combos into aerials (usually uair), Up Tilt can still lead to a uair and then string, and Down Throw to Uair still works on non-floaty characters. Fair to RAR Uair is also a thing. At higher percents, he still has combos from Quick Attack for a while and then kill mixups, which can be true combos, but those are limited by not being true with certain DI or incorrect reads. Obviously, the combo potential drops as the percent increases, but it’d be wrong to say he doesn’t have good followups at higher percents.

Also on a side note, Quick Attack is mainly a punish tool and a pressure escape option. If people are relying on it like some crutch in neutral, they deserve to be punished. (*insert clip of ESAM using Quick Attack a lot against M2K’s Cloud at Pound and then getting the extended hurtbox punished here*)

I still agree though that it’d be nice if people didn’t ignore weaknesses. But it’d help if people knew what they were talking about in the first place as well. It’s kinda weird to me to see people in general blame the ones overrating him and proceed to underrate him through misinformation. This is partly why I decided to make another post here.

If a follow-up isn't true with proper DI it's not a true follow-up, and QA to uair is 10% damage max. It's not a good follow-up when half the individual moves of most characters do as much or more damage.

That, and I never said Pikachu's mobility was bad, but that he lacks the mobility to perform good follow-ups past low percents. And he does. Pikachu's mobility is only decent without QA.

If you're going to call me misinformed you should offer more reasons for it than the opinion that 10-13% sometimes bad DI dependent follow-ups are good, and twisting me into saying something I didn't and then ultimately agreeing with what I actually said while answering to the strawman you created.

In addition, to be completely real, it was an example of the discussion that happens here condensed into as few words as I could, so it may not be the best thing to pick on. The point of that post wasn't about Pikachu, it was about the discussion about Pikachu.

Also regarding uthrow RAR thunder, I thought the whole point was always that it's true on DI read but impossible otherwise. i.e. you have enough frames to perform it but you don't have nearly enough frames to react to your opponent's DI while performing it. Back then people argued it can be done with a 100% success rate.

 

[sups48]

This is the kind of misinformation I was talking about. Do you have a good reason for outright lying to make fAir sound better than it is? It doesn't combo into itself at any percent. It is also not "hugely disjointed", being outspaced by most fAirs and bAirs (including Mega's own bAir). It is only safe when fading with it against opponents lacking burst mobility. Usmash goes through SOME platforms, but only every other hit. That's because the hitbox alternates between two sizes for each spark. In practice, this allows people to escape the attack easily when they are stuck on battlefield.

The reason we don't talk about the "good" points of attacks like fAir is because they are never good options. Any time you can use fAir, you should use bAir. Faster, more damage, more knock back, more active frames, more range. Usmash is weak and unreliable, but it has utility for being easier to land than the otherwise superior uTilt, and also true combos out of MB follow ups at higher percent, when uTilt stops connecting. Try to have a reasonable discussion next time.



This actually made me stop to think for a little about multi hits. I came up with three questions. Feel free to provide your own answers - I'm interested in knowing why you think Mega's one usable smash shouldn't even connect properly.

Are the moves I mentioned not linking because the opponent SDIs out, or because the move just spits them out on its own? (They all spit the opponent out and cannot be SDId if they hit properly, with the possible exception of uAir's final windbox).

Is there a reason that the moves would be designed to be inconsistent, and does it make sense to get punished on hit? (No, no character is designed with this flaw, and many other characters have had similar moves fixed).

When a multi-hit move is adjusted in a balance patch, is it ever made to link improperly, or have they always made moves that don't link properly link better? (I can't think of any multi hit moves that became unreliable, but several have been patched to link properly.)

First thing I corrected my self already so I don't know why your bringing the combo thing up. It doesn't get out spaced by most fairs or bairs unless you have a weird Fair/Bair like villager or you use a sword try to out space bair also fair out ranges bair but moving forward with a mulit-hilt you can hit them with the last hit. You say it doesn't shark now you say it does but is unreliable. But it does always shark people can fall out of it but more then half the time it works like a vacuum and hits you closer in to bigger hit box or kills you with the big one at the end. I'm done talking about this, this summer is going to show exactly how "unfinished" mega man is.

 

[Bowserboy3]

While everyone is ResidentSleeper right now ANTI joins Nairo, Larry and Ally as the players to beat ZeRo. ZeRo is going to have to pick up a Secondary for Mario because nothings working. Even Cloud

Are we forgetting Seagull and his Sonic?

 

[Ninety]

And ZeRo gets a third silver place in a row. Hoping he's able to sort it out by the summer, I'd hate to see him at less than full capacity at the supermajors. Not to take from Anti's achievement, of course.

 

[Jamurai]

Looks to me that it's not ZeRo deteriorating, it's others that are improving faster than he is at the moment.

It's cool that it's no longer "ZeRo is attending... so... who's going to come 2nd?", it's seemingly all to play for at this summer's huge tournaments.

Amusingly ZeRo is now hogging that 2nd place spot instead.

 

[|RK|]

His performance is almost depressing at this point. It's not even like a couple people are stepping to his level, like Nairo did back at MLG. Everyone's taking him down now.

Not to take away from him or his competition, mind.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well it's a part of the scene, people will get better and better than the one person whom is/was the best. I'll always happen someday, am I not correct?

 

[Zelder]

I really don't think that losing a closely contested set to another top 10 player is depressing, nor do I think losing to 3 of the top 10 players consists of "everyone". Personally, I think it's extremely exciting, and adds a much needed element of mystery to tournaments Zero enters. I think it's more fun to watch a tournament where the ending isn't a foregone conclusion.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

You're gonna expect a player that's been out of the scene to suddenly start taking every tournament after a 3 month hiatus?. zero is human everyone, and you can't blame people for catching up and zero having a tough time.

 

[Hero_2_All]

I mean there are 2 large factors at play with ZeRo's losses. One he was on hiatus, and out of practice for that time. Being on hiatus, but practicing, and being on hiatus due to injury, and being UNABLE to practice are completely different. The later is obviously much more detrimental. Two even without a hiatus smash, and many other things have reverse exponential growth curves, in that the more you improve, the more difficult it becomes to improve. As such people are gonna eventually catch up quicker than the best will improve. Just look at Ken's lowing dominance for melee back in the day.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Even so, ZeRo isn't forced to stay as the best player forever is he?

Remember Ken in Melee?

I'm not for one moment implying that ZeRo is past his best, he's far from it. However, other players do indeed seem to be catching up and improving. This is far better for the scene, and spectators in general. ZeRo himself said this, on multiple occasions (that he wants more people to beat him).

While I do want ZeRo to continue winning his fair share of tournaments, because he deserves to, I do want more and more variety, and thus, don't want to see him winning everything. Right now, it looks like this may be a possibility. We may be proved wrong over the summer, but it's certainly an exciting time to be in.

Besides, I'm tired of the obligatory "You're still the best ZeRo" or "We still love you ~ #ScarfArmy" Reddit posts every time ZeRo loses to somebody...

 

[Goombo]

I mean there are 2 large factors at play with ZeRo's losses. One he was on hiatus, and out of practice for that time. [...] Two even without a hiatus smash, and many other things have reverse exponential growth curves, in that the more you improve, the more difficult it becomes to improve.

I would still argue that the Shiek nerf is at least as substantial explaining Zeros current losses as your two mentioned reason.

 

[Hero_2_All]

I would still argue that the Shiek nerf is at least as substantial explaining Zeros current losses as your two mentioned reason.

I would have said that if it wasn't for the fact that pre hiatus his Diddy was able to beat all the top lvl sheiks. Diddy is still the same as he was pre sheik nerf.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I would still argue that the Shiek nerf is at least as substantial explaining Zeros current losses as your two mentioned reason.

Even so, Diddy has been essentially the same character for almost a year now. Diddy is arguably one of the, if not the best character in the game right now. He is just as competent as Diddy as he was Sheik.

But what you said holds weight however. While Diddy is arguably one of the best characters right now, he is still not on the same level as pre patch Sheik.

There isn't an overly dominating character out there right now, and the fact the top tiers are a lot more balanced now adds more possibility of competition being able to compete with ZeRo.

 

[Amadeus9]

You really need to understand, gameplay is player vs. player NOT fighter vs. fighter. No top tier in this game is hard enough that you can't CP to it if a matchup is really bad enough that it would make the fight truly fighter vs fighter. Saying Zero is placing 2nd a lot now because of sheik nerfs is an advanced level of johning, cut it out.

EDIT: ANY balance change that makes the game more Player vs. Player than Fighter vs. Fighter is a GOOD BALANCE CHANGE, remember that.