Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dinoman96]

Wasn't there an interview where sakurai said Jiggs was meant to be a joke character? I mean she was only really good in one game and pretty sure it was accidental.

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/13/news-flash-smash-bros-dojo-jigglypuff/

in Melee's case, it wasn't accidental. Sakurai explictly stated that Pichu would carry the "joke character" torch away from Jigglypuff, and thus she was "was re-designed a little bit."

 

[Radical Larry]

Then what do you think it is if it isnt stages

It could be a number of things. Finally adding Custom Moves to characters, a new Mode (Tournament Mode for 3DS possibly), balance changes to Smash Run (though I don't think that might happen).

Heck, there could be new items.

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/13/news-flash-smash-bros-dojo-jigglypuff/

in Melee's case, it wasn't accidental. Sakurai explictly stated that Pichu would carry the "joke character" torch away from Jigglypuff, and thus she was "was re-designed a little bit."

But he did it wrong.

 

[irokex13]

He does not get this confirm out of nowhere. His opponent either ****ed up, or Ryu gives up his positioning and attempts to go in with a mix up of sum kind.

He is not ZSS who had confirms off grabs or Diddy who can easily throw out a safe spaced dtilt. Yes Ryus utilt is safe but he has to be all up your personal space. Just closing that space, puts him at risk.
Its not the same thing.

Sorry, I normally agree with most of your posts, but Ryu's Shoryuken is mad busted. The move is invincible on frames 1-6, kills mad early, and has the least landing lag out of any Up B in the game at 18 frames. That's already a broken move, but then you add on the fact that Ryu has frame 2/3 tilts that combo into it and Shoryuken starts to look really silly. Then you look at the fact that u tilt and d tilt are safe on shield, and that Ryu has arguably the best shield breaker in the game and you really start to question life. And then finally you realize that to get in on you, Ryu has a safe-ish projectile with Shakunetsu and aerials that are not only unreasonably huge, but they are also safe on shield. Like, I don't get how people see Ryu as a fair and balanced character, or the most "tame" of the DLC. His kit is absurd, he's just not as easy to abuse as Bayo and Cloud.

 

[Das Koopa]

In making Pichu a joke character, he's still a clone of Pikachu, so he has a good recovery and a few passable moves. Better than , who literally has one move (OoS Up B) and , who has up tilt and the mildly inconvenient bump in the road of pain.

This is basically Melee:

...And the subject of Melee's balance is interesting in comparison to Smash 4. Bowser's history in particular kind of fascinates me, where he went from 2-time trash tier to usable. I feel like if Ganondorf got the same redesign effort characters like Bowser or Yoshi did, that he might be truly viable.

 

[IsmaR]

Everyone please remember this is not a general speculation thread for the patch. And as usual, any ****posts don't belong here.

I'm also gonna ask people to refrain from posting wishlists rather than actual predictions, including about DLC characters/stages.

 

[LancerStaff]

Watch this just be another custom moves patch.

Considering we still have so many blatantly broken custom moves it'd basically be wasted effort at this point... Still have things like Olimar's custom Pikmin grabs not working.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Yay, some order.

Anyways I hope that the patch is dropped like tonight so we dont spend too long bickering/discussing speculation.
Is there a confirmed time/date or anything?

 

[Radical Larry]

Yay, some order.

Anyways I hope that the patch is dropped like tonight so we dont spend too long bickering/discussing speculation.
Is there a confirmed time/date or anything?

I actually DO hope it is for tonight. I'd love to experiment the newer changes for characters earlier.
Whenever they do these kinds of things, I believe the patches come in the night.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's been an extremely long year in game dev hell, but as of this moment, I'm officially back.

Oh look, a patch.

Not sure whether to sigh, or roll my my sleeves with glee.

 

[Fatmanonice]

People have been talking about the patch sizes. Does anyone have that information on the past patches? Smash Wiki doesn't have this information and I'm curious about how this upcoming one and past ones compare.

 

[DblCrest]

Thinkaman
Welcome back XD
Any views or impressions to share while you were gone?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sorry, I normally agree with most of your posts, but Ryu's Shoryuken is mad busted. The move is invincible on frames 1-6, kills mad early, and has the least landing lag out of any Up B in the game at 18 frames. That's already a broken move, but then you add on the fact that Ryu has frame 2/3 tilts that combo into it and Shoryuken starts to look really silly. Then you look at the fact that u tilt and d tilt are safe on shield, and that Ryu has arguably the best shield breaker in the game and you really start to question life. And then finally you realize that to get in on you, Ryu has a safe-ish projectile with Shakunetsu and aerials that are not only unreasonably huge, but they are also safe on shield. Like, I don't get how people see Ryu as a fair and balanced character, or the most "tame" of the DLC. His kit is absurd, he's just not as easy to abuse as Bayo and Cloud.

And then you realize he struggles with long pokes/projectiles. And he heavily commits every time he throws out any aerial, making his approach much more worse than other top tiers.

 

[Nobie]

Man, all this talk of Mewtwo's fair being overtuned, I hope you all realize that it's very intentionally super good in order to tie in with Mewtwo's glass cannon theme.

Strong, quick fairs are at a premium in this game, and they don't hand the things out like candy, so generally speaking they're given to characters if they specifically fit.

Also, do you remember what Mewtwo's fair was like pre-patch? It was 1 frame slower, had slightly less range, and 4 frames more landing lag. People's opinions of the move basically amounted to "eh it's all right I guess."

Maybe the landing lag buff was too much, but otherwise the move was only slightly touched. On top of that, the common complaint about Mewtwo was that his aerials were too punishable on landing. Now that they're fairly safe (no pun intended), it's a problem?

People complain when the glass cannon isn't doing enough damage but now that Mewtwo's kit wrecks face it's a problem.

I want to remind everyone that Mewtwo's fastest attacks are FRAME 6. I know that no one's saying it outright, but I get the fear that Mewtwo's weakness are trivialized. However, having no attacks faster than Frame 6 means nothing in M2's kit is ever going to invalidate the glass aspect of Mewtwo as glass cannon. There's no Frame 1 shine cancel, hell there's not even a frame 3 aerial. All Mewtwo does is overwhelm with good spacing and threaten with tremendous kill power.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Man, all this talk of Mewtwo's fair being overtuned, I hope you all realize that it's very intentionally super good in order to tie in with Mewtwo's glass cannon theme.

Strong, quick fairs are at a premium in this game, and they don't hand the things out like candy, so generally speaking they're given to characters if they specifically fit.

Also, do you remember what Mewtwo's fair was like pre-patch? It was 1 frame slower, had slightly less range, and 4 frames more landing lag. People's opinions of the move basically amounted to "eh it's all right I guess."

Maybe the landing lag buff was too much, but otherwise the move was only slightly touched. On top of that, the common complaint about Mewtwo was that his aerials were too punishable on landing. Now that they're fairly safe (no pun intended), it's a problem?

People complain when the glass cannon isn't doing enough damage but now that Mewtwo's kit wrecks face it's a problem.

I want to remind everyone that Mewtwo's fastest attacks are FRAME 6. I know that no one's saying it outright, but I get the fear that Mewtwo's weakness are trivialized. However, having no attacks faster than Frame 6 means nothing in M2's kit is ever going to invalidate the glass aspect of Mewtwo as glass cannon. There's no Frame 1 shine cancel, hell there's not even a frame 3 aerial. All Mewtwo does is overwhelm with good spacing and threaten with tremendous kill power.

Fair enough, pun intended

 

[Thinkaman]

Man, all this talk of Mewtwo's fair being overtuned

.....what the hell did I miss?

 

[Ulevo]

Overtuned options are fine so long as the character has weaknesses that can be exploited and the option does not invalidate large sums of characters or styles of play. I really do not think Mewtwo's forward air being as good as it is is a problem considering the rest of the character. It's a strong option you need to respect, not an auto win condition.

Most of the cast barring Bayo is fine as far as being 'too good' is concerned.

 

[Y2Kay]

Honestly I don't think Mewtwo is bad for balance. Plethora of weaknesses, big and small, forces Mewtwo players to respect a lot more characters than other high and top tiers.

Like, I'm legitimately worried about potentially losing to Ganon in bracket (I've seen this happen to other M2's before), and no other high tier really has a fear of a bad character like that.

I know Abadango's recent success is startling, but keep in mind that that Abadango got knocked out of bracket by a frickin' Duck Hunt Main! Not only is DHD not a very good character, that's a MU that M2 is usually considered to win too.

I see people saying stuff like: It's not fair that Nair FS Disable kills people at 70. And all in response I can say is: Welcome to the club! Do all of you guys forget how many times Mewtwo mains die to dumb bull**** at unreasonably low percents too, I just don't have that much sympathy for it

I couldn't stand how people would over look Mewtwo's strengths for his weaknesses, and now everyone is doing the exact opposite. Ughh.

I'll rant more later, just wanted to say that real quick

 

[Fatmanonice]

.....what the hell did I miss?

To summarize the current community mindset: Mewtwo won a national, better nerf him to oblivion. *fart*

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sorry, I normally agree with most of your posts, but Ryu's Shoryuken is mad busted. The move is invincible on frames 1-6, kills mad early, and has the least landing lag out of any Up B in the game at 18 frames. That's already a broken move, but then you add on the fact that Ryu has frame 2/3 tilts that combo into it and Shoryuken starts to look really silly. Then you look at the fact that u tilt and d tilt are safe on shield, and that Ryu has arguably the best shield breaker in the game and you really start to question life. And then finally you realize that to get in on you, Ryu has a safe-ish projectile with Shakunetsu and aerials that are not only unreasonably huge, but they are also safe on shield. Like, I don't get how people see Ryu as a fair and balanced character, or the most "tame" of the DLC. His kit is absurd, he's just not as easy to abuse as Bayo and Cloud.

Learn to block. Learn to pivot grab.

There, you have shut down most Ryus on the planet.

I'm sorry most of this cast is weak sauce and Ryu is actually scary in situations that are meant to be scary for the defender.

There is a reason Ryu players were getting wtfomgbbq BODIED for almost a year. His meta is not at all what the Smash meta in general is. If you get shoryued raw by a Ryu then you are either predictable as **** OR the player got lucky, but luck isnt consistent so you shouldnt sweat that.

Yes confirms off jab and tilts are a thing, but due to his design he cannot easily set up blocking situations for that kind of pressure. He is not Sheik who can just roll up on you and press a high priority button that leaves him very close and exactly where he wants to be.


At least....not until I finish my labbing.

Soon my dragon brethren. So very very...soooooon.

And dammit guys will you all of you just leave mewtwo the **** alone?!??!?!

Dude is the strongest pokemon. LET HIM BE GOOD!!!!!

 

[zeldasmash]

When Mewtwo is finally good, people are calling nerfs for him?

Why? Let the guy enjoy his success.

 

[Thinkaman]

To summarize the current community mindset: Mewtwo won a national, better nerf him to oblivion. *fart*

So I take it we are buffing Bayonetta tonight then? Nice.

 

[ARGHETH]

I want to remind everyone that Mewtwo's fastest attacks are FRAME 6. I know that no one's saying it outright, but I get the fear that Mewtwo's weakness are trivialized. However, having no attacks faster than Frame 6 means nothing in M2's kit is ever going to invalidate the glass aspect of Mewtwo as glass cannon.

I agree with the main point of your post, but I'd like to mention that. as a Robin main, this is kind of funny. Our fastest option in the air is F8 Elwind, followed by F9 Nair/Bair.

 

[irokex13]

And then you realize he struggles with long pokes/projectiles. And he heavily commits every time he throws out any aerial, making his approach much more worse than other top tiers.

Learn to block. Learn to pivot grab.

There, you have shut down most Ryus on the planet.

I'm sorry most of this cast is weak sauce and Ryu is actually scary in situations that are meant to be scary for the defender.

There is a reason Ryu players were getting wtfomgbbq BODIED for almost a year. His meta is not at all what the Smash meta in general is. If you get shoryued raw by a Ryu then you are either predictable as **** OR the player got lucky, but luck isnt consistent so you shouldnt sweat that.

Yes confirms off jab and tilts are a thing, but due to his design he cannot easily set up blocking situations for that kind of pressure. He is not Sheik who can just roll up on you and press a high priority button that leaves him very close and exactly where he wants to be.


At least....not until I finish my labbing.
Soon my dragon brethren. So very very...soooooon.

And dammit guys will you all of you just leave mewtwo the **** alone?!??!?!

Dude is the strongest pokemon. LET HIM BE GOOD!!!!!

Nair - 6 frames landing lag, +7/+5 on shield
Fair - 14 frames landing lag, +3/+2/0 on shield, sourspot deals significant shield damage
Bair - 12 frames landing lag, +6 on shield, gargantuan hitbox (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChPXZWhWgAMJpmZ.jpg:large)

I'm sorry, but where is the commitment? Ryu has absurd aerials, you have to anti-air him before he gets to you. If he hits your shield, you messed up because now he has true blockstring crap and shield break setups that could lead to big damage/death.

I'm not saying he's the most broken character in the game, but he's just as dumb as the rest of the top tiers. And I'm no stranger to fighting Ryu either. Fighting against one has helped me learn how to stay patient and work on my footsies, particularly my ground game. It's not about outdamaging him with fancy combos, it's mostly just optimizing my neutral with safe pokes and good movement to reduce the amount of times he can hit me. I'll gladly safely poke at him 10 times with a 5% move instead of risking taking a heavy punish from Ryu just for some 20-30% combo.

 

[Y2Kay]

Honestly, if Nintendo nerfed Mewtwo they are basically saying to us: "No, you can't have a high tier Mewtwo"

That'd be a really confusing message, considering how they could have just stopped buffing him after patch 1.1.3

After patch 1.1.5 it's kind of obvious that they want M2 to be a really good character.

 

[PMMikey]

Why in the world does anyone think Mewtwo needs a nerf? That to me is just so silly like personally I think Pikachu is better than him, but none the less why don't we just nerf everyone so much that everyone is equally bad? Why does anyone even want nerfs? Why wouldn't you rather ask for buffs so that we can further teach and expand the meta? I rather buff everyone.

 

[TurboLink]

Nair - 6 frames landing lag, +7/+5 on shield
Fair - 14 frames landing lag, +3/+2/0 on shield, sourspot deals significant shield damage
Bair - 12 frames landing lag, +6 on shield, gargantuan hitbox (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChPXZWhWgAMJpmZ.jpg:large)

I'm sorry, but where is the commitment? Ryu has absurd aerials, you have to anti-air him before he gets to you. If he hits your shield, you messed up because now he has true blockstring crap and shield break setups that could lead to big damage/death.

I'm not saying he's the most broken character in the game, but he's just as dumb as the rest of the top tiers. And I'm no stranger to fighting Ryu either. Fighting against one has helped me learn how to stay patient and work on my footsies, particularly my ground game. It's not about outdamaging him with fancy combos, it's mostly just optimizing my neutral with safe pokes and good movement to reduce the amount of times he can hit me. I'll gladly safely poke at him 10 times with a 5% move instead of risking taking a heavy punish from Ryu just for some 20-30% combo.

The commitment is in his jump/air acceleration.

 

[Y2Kay]

The commitment is in his jump/air acceleration.

Also Ryu doesn't have a good jump squat

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Nair - 6 frames landing lag, +7/+5 on shield
Fair - 14 frames landing lag, +3/+2/0 on shield, sourspot deals significant shield damage
Bair - 12 frames landing lag, +6 on shield, gargantuan hitbox (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChPXZWhWgAMJpmZ.jpg:large)

I'm sorry, but where is the commitment? Ryu has absurd aerials, you have to anti-air him before he gets to you. If he hits your shield, you messed up because now he has true blockstring crap and shield break setups that could lead to big damage/death.

I'm not saying he's the most broken character in the game, but he's just as dumb as the rest of the top tiers. And I'm no stranger to fighting Ryu either. Fighting against one has helped me learn how to stay patient and work on my footsies, particularly my ground game. It's not about outdamaging him with fancy combos, it's mostly just optimizing my neutral with safe pokes and good movement to reduce the amount of times he can hit me. I'll gladly safely poke at him 10 times with a 5% move instead of risking taking a heavy punish from Ryu just for some 20-30% combo.

He can't change direction at all in the air. What direction you choose is the one you'll be sticking with the entire time. And where did you get those numbers from??? Any sources?

 

[irokex13]

He can't change direction at all in the air. What direction you choose is the one you'll be sticking with the entire time. And where did you get those numbers from (idk why you listed Nair when it's so short ranged)??? Any sources?

Ryu has a frame 5 jump squat. That's not bad at all. And it's not like Ryu has FADC to reverse his air momentum or anything. Again, I'm not saying he's the most broken character in the game (even if he was, I play Cloud and Sheik, I can't complain). But it's slightly annoying to see people think Ryu is some barely high tier character when he has a top tier kit. He is heavily underrated by most people in this thread.

And here's my frame data source. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=524475654)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Mewtwo didn't need nerfs last patch, what he also didn't need was more random over the top "lets make him faster than sheik" buffs.

Revert please.

Daily reminder that Mewtwo's frame 6, unpunishable fair that kills earlier than various smash attacks can be combo'd into.

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

 

[TurboLink]

He can't change direction at all in the air. What direction you choose is the one you'll be sticking with the entire time. And where did you get those numbers from??? Any sources?

This is where I get my frame data from.

 

[FSLink]

No its not out yet as far as I know, but the Wii U patch is like 60 mb, and the 3DS is over 300 mb for some reason.

Probably some wii u stages added to 3DS

Just want to point out that this is because the 3DS patches stack on top of each other. If you're downloading 1.1.5, you're also redownloading the stuff for 1.1.4, and so-on. I think we can safely say that a new stage/character/music/whatever isn't likely.


Anyway back on topic, I do think Mewtwo should stay as is. If they had to do anything, maybe lower the knockback of fair a bit, but it's honestly completely unnecessary. A glass cannon character should hurt you badly, and now he finally feels like what his design is intended to be.

 

[TurboLink]

Mewtwo didn't need nerfs last patch, what he also didn't need was more random over the top "lets make him faster than sheik" buffs.

Revert please.

Daily reminder that Mewtwo's frame 6, unpunishable fair that kills earlier than various smash attacks can be combo'd into.

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

Which moves exactly? I imagine down tilt is one of them.

 

[sedrf]

Jesus christ can we stop whiing.
I rather go back to pikachu discussion

 

[Strong-Arm]

Yay, more bickering. Anyways imo Mewtwo is perfectly fine. Slightly nerf Bayo and Cloud and buff a couple of chars and boom we're good to go. I think we should try and refrain from arguing over speculation. The patch will drop soon, idk when or how soon, but soon. So can we please stop arguing and whining.

Lets just take a moment and appreciate how far weve come. I really hope sm4sh has a long lifespan. This is easily the most balanced smash game and who knows if this is the final patch or not. While I do think some chars could use fine tuning, I think that this is easily a very large step up from melee and brawl lol

 

[HeavyLobster]

Like, I'm legitimately worried about potentially losing to Ganon in bracket (I've seen this happen to other M2's before), and no other high tier really has a fear of a bad character like that.

Not entirely true. Top tiers like Sheik, Bayo, and Diddy generally have little to fear from him, but Dorf is a legitimate threat to Fox, Mario, Ness, and MK among characters considered high tierish. ZSS and Cloud can also get messed up pretty quickly if they don't know the MU. Dorf has a rough time overall against high tiers, but he still does have some MUs he can compete reasonably well in.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo didn't need nerfs last patch, what he also didn't need was more random over the top "lets make him faster than sheik" buffs.

Revert please.

Daily reminder that Mewtwo's frame 6, unpunishable fair that kills earlier than various smash attacks can be combo'd into.

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

I don't mention it a lot because I don't like to look like a complainer, but Mewtwo has to deal with a lot of "unfair" stuff on the reg too ya know.

Like goddamn teleport never fricking snapping to the ledge right.

 

[420quickscoper]

Mewtwo didn't need nerfs last patch, what he also didn't need was more random over the top "lets make him faster than sheik" buffs.

Revert please.

Daily reminder that Mewtwo's frame 6, unpunishable fair that kills earlier than various smash attacks can be combo'd into.

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

What?
Forward air kills at like 120% on the ground. And sometimes later. Most smashes kill at 110%.
And, his forward air is on its own kind, and, well, that's okay to have a stupid move. There's tons of stupid moves out there that don't really have weaknesses.

Are you REALLY suggesting that Mewtwo needs nerfs? There are more characters deserving the hammer far more than he does.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

minor nitpick but bair is +7 on shield and nair is only +4, not +7, it's 2016 why aren't you people using the calculator already Kappa

(I'm serious though. It's wayyyyyy more accurate)

Which moves exactly? I imagine down tilt is one of them.

dtilt, nair, usmash, fair

dair is the best meteor in the game too but I'm not sold on calling it oppressive... yet.

 

[ARISTOS]

Patch may not even be coming today so lets chill.

Interested to see what people think about - she's got a lot of different reactions from different posters, ranging from people thinking she's secretly busted to people thinking she's heavily mediocre. I'm leaning more towards busted but that is likely heavily influenced by my character, so maybe other opinions could be helpful