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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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420quickscoper

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View attachment 107145

Also his grab range is definitely not bad. I watched Abadango voodoo magic Mr R over to him with his silly grab range.
3rd highest air speed.
With bottom 5 aerial acceleration.
So Mewtwo's air speed isn't actually as good as you see it to be. The gap between the air speed of Jigglypuff and Mewtwo is huge because of the air acceleration difference.
 

ARGHETH

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Oh man, seems like the patch hype is really getting to everyone. It would be incredibly awkward if it dropped a day before a major like GOML started. Would they use the patch if it came out that date?
Definitely not. 1.0.7 released a day before TBH5, but 1.0.6 was used, iirc.
Shoryuken, that can be combo'd into, has generous amounts of invincibility,
It can be combo'd into by moves with tiny hitboxes and has 6 invincibility frames for the true version.
He does have bad air acceleration, but slightly better air deceleration than most other characters,
 
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Y2Kay

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View attachment 107145

Also his grab range is definitely not bad. I watched Abadango voodoo magic Mr R over to him with his silly grab range.
I meant like overall, you know that's what I mean.

Mewtwo has great air mobility and fall speed but he has bad gravity and air acceleration makes his aerial movement very lack luster.

U can't pull up the picture rn, but his grave range is NOT silly Lol

:150:
 

Jams.

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Oh man, seems like the patch hype is really getting to everyone. It would be incredibly awkward if it dropped a day before a major like GOML started. Would they use the patch if it came out that date?
They're planning on using 1.1.6 for GOML if it comes out before the event (likely barring awkward cases where it comes out Friday or Saturday). While it could potentially be the first big tournament in 1.1.6, I highly doubt the patch would drop this week considering there's nothing for Smash in the maintenance schedule. Hopefully it happens though because there's a Bayonetta in my pool. =V
 

KuroganeHammer

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His air acceleration is good though..........................................................

0.05 isn't bad at all wtf
 

Quantumpen

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13% 20/100 BKB/KBG

Compare it to like Dedede dsmash which is 13%, 60/80
Which isn't actually as crazy as you make it out to be. The move has pretty low BKB, it becomes a kill move only at high percents (when it is no longer a combo/juggle tool). If you'd actually play the character you'd know that, in normal game situations people regularly survived getting hit by it at 80/90% at the ledge unless Mewtwo has tons of rage.

Saying it kills at 70% from center stage is straight up nonsense. It almost (doesn't actually) kills Sheik (super light character) from center stage when Mewtwo is at 150% (A situation which rarely obtains because Mewtwo is so light. It's pretty much just against sheik that he manages to live to those percentages.)

When you consider that mewtwo risks getting killed at lower percentages by a number of powerful attacks, even when his opponents have less rage, it doesn't seem so absurd.
 
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Shady Shaymin

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Mewtwo also has pretty mediocre frame data. He has to play a patient zoning game and know exactly when to press his buttons to connect punishes. A mis-spaced dtilt, a poorly timed fair, or a whiffed dash attack are all it takes for fox to rush in and go crazy. Mewtwo, like Sheik, requires a clear head to perform well with. Impatient, impulsive play is easily punished and you will die so early for a few mistakes, but if your mindset is right, you can turn around a match more easily than any character. The comeback factor works for and against mewtwo.
 

DanGR

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Mewtwo's grab range is 22nd/53 according to this. It's 4 months old so it doesn't include Bayonetta or buffs/nerfs to grabs, but still. The grab range isn't a problem in my experience- it's the cooldown.
 
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zzmorg82

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Tfw ppl are bickering over a high tier and Im just here like, well people have complained about Electro shock before.

Being a Pit/Dark Pit player is weird cause no one ever talks about you, and youre one of the only chars in the game no one complains about lmfao
I seen a few cries for the Pits to get buffed.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Mewtwo's frame data is absurd, how dare you call it "mediocre". Dtilt alone is safer than most characters Jab 1!!

His only moves with "bad" frame data are his f/dsmash attacks and one of them is pretty much completely safe on whiff.
 

Nobie

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Mewtwo's seemingly amazing grab might be the product of two things.

First, is that his roll canceled grab is very good, as first discovered by Abadango himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfdYyrBtf_0

Second, is that Mewtwo's improved run speed has made his grab much much better. If you watch the above video, or used Mewtwo before the speed buffs, there's a noticeable difference.

Mewtwo d-tilt is super good, but it loses to short hop aerials.

The missing piece of the puzzle in all of this is when Mewtwo is in disadvantage.

Mewtwo, when in neutral, and when on the offense, can feel absurdly powerful. When you're spacing the opponent out, and you're deflecting their projectiles, and you're getting d-tilt into fair juggles you're on top of the world.

But if the opponent is in your face, if you're getting juggled and they read your air dodge (having the fastest-recovering air dodge in the game comes with its own unique set of strengths and weaknesses), or if you just need to reset the situation it isn't so easy. If you watch Mewtwos play, they'll get these huge leads and then blow them instantly because Mewtwo got hit 4 times.

That's where the balance in Mewtwo lies.

Do I think M2 might be a bit too good? Kind of, yeah. I don't think that run speed buff was terribly necessary last patch, and it influences M2's matchups a lot more than one might think. However, Mewtwos aren't throwing around the term "glass cannon" just because it sounds cool, or like how Foxes in Melee use it because they get juggled by the other best characters in the game. There's a hard cap on how amazingly Mewtwo can defeat decision-making with sheer technical skill because, while its moves are amazing, they have very understandable weaknesses, and while Mewtwo overall is very good the character's drawbacks cannot be simply ignored by "playing well."
 
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arbustopachon

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Mewtwo's grab range is 22nd/53rd according to this. It's 4 months old so it doesn't include Bayonetta or buffs/nerfs to grabs, but still. The grab range isn't a problem in my experience- it's the cooldown.
That method of testing grab ranges is flawed. Zard for example has a huge grab range but an even bigger dumb head hurtbox. This makes it look like his grab range is shorter than what it really is.
 

Vyrnx

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Oh boy Mewtwo discussion, we all know what that means~
Fair enough, pun intended
Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.
Well yeah, there's bair, nair, dair...
pls not again


I seriously think Mewtwo is fine and only needs minor changes. At first I thought just one person said he was broken and everyone overreacted, but it seems like a pretty prevalent opinion. He's been low tier for a long time and I don't feel like he's a ridiculous character. He's been making a showing in the tournament scene for ~two months now. People are bound to improve against him.

Maybe fair could take a slight KB decrease, and maybe the footstool combo should be removed (something I don't really see as very "hype" and more stupid), but other than that, I like the concept of getting combos into powerful moves as long as some of his other defining weaknesses remain, i.e. weight, size, mediocre frame data.
 
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LancerStaff

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Let's just stop the whining about Mewtwo for a while... 1.1.6 must already be finalized and complaining isn't going to do anything. If at all, if this is the last patch.
 

SaltyKracka

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Lemme put it this way.

Ganondorf's fair comes out frame 14, does 17%, has 20/93 BKB/KBG, has no auto cancel (due to a bug that's been in since Brawl SAKURAIIIIIIIIII) and has 22 frames of landing lag.

Mewtwo's fair is 8 frames faster, 4% weaker, has better KBG, autocancels and has 8 fewer frames of landing lag, oh, and is attached to a character that isn't made out of concrete filled with dung.

It's pretty busted. But it really isn't the issue. The real issue is that Sakurai and co. decided to mainline pure mobility into Mewtwo's veins last patch.
 

KuroganeHammer

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has no auto cancel (due to a bug that's been in since Brawl SAKURAIIIIIIIIII).
Actually that was intentional design lol.

Can you believe that a real life game developer green lit both Mewtwo's fair and Ganondorf's fair?

Me neither. I think he was high when approving at least one of those.
 

SaltyKracka

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Actually that was intentional design lol.

Can you believe that a real life game developer green lit both Mewtwo's fair and Ganondorf's fair?

Me neither. I think he was high when approving at least one of those.
...I can't believe that asynchronous timer was an intentional design decision. It has way too many dumb results (e.g. Ganon being able to use B moves out of it but not anything else) and frankly is just too stupid.
 
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Shaya

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Which isn't actually as crazy as you make it out to be. The move has pretty low BKB, it becomes a kill move only at high percents (when it is no longer a combo/juggle tool). If you'd actually play the character you'd know that, in normal game situations people regularly survived getting hit by it at 80/90% at the ledge unless Mewtwo has tons of rage.

Saying it kills at 70% from center stage is straight up nonsense. It almost (doesn't actually) kills Sheik (super light character) from center stage when Mewtwo is at 150% (A situation which rarely obtains because Mewtwo is so light. It's pretty much just against sheik that he manages to live to those percentages.)

When you consider that mewtwo risks getting killed at lower percentages by a number of powerful attacks, even when his opponents have less rage, it doesn't seem so absurd.
Low base and highish growth on great spacing moves is actually close to the best combination you can get in this game (that isn't an exception to the rule / broken: moves with low base and no growth is more busted but essentially non-existent.... waittttttttttt mewtwo sour up tilt!? :p). Snake's up tilt was famously this formula, but in Brawl the staling of moves was a lot more significant than in Smash 4 (due to momentum canceling and no rage); so people rarely used it at early percent [plus he couldn't do it out of a run or anything].

The low base means it will combo well for a long time which with it's ability to chain into itself with staling is pretty helpful, but starts to ramp up significantly in KO power.
If by high percent you mean sub 100%, then sure.

Marth's tipper fsmash has a lot less growth than Mewtwo's forward air (although it has a significantly higher base).
 
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HeavyLobster

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Lemme put it this way.

Ganondorf's fair comes out frame 14, does 17%, has 20/93 BKB/KBG, has no auto cancel (due to a bug that's been in since Brawl SAKURAIIIIIIIIII) and has 22 frames of landing lag.

Mewtwo's fair is 8 frames faster, 4% weaker, has better KBG, autocancels and has 8 fewer frames of landing lag, oh, and is attached to a character that isn't made out of concrete filled with dung.

It's pretty busted. But it really isn't the issue. The real issue is that Sakurai and co. decided to mainline pure mobility into Mewtwo's veins last patch.
Ganon Fair does 18% sweetspotted. Also unlike M2, it's not his best aerial. M2's Fair is great but it doesn't break the character overall.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Mewtwo does need some form of nerfs at this point. Yes, he does have several key weakness such as very low weight, average frame data, and Teleport not always sweetspoting the ledge, but so many of his tools are so clearly overtuned that I'm surprised so many people are against nerfing him. Things like his airdodge, mobility, reach and speed of all of his aerials and tilts, Kill potential off of throws and aerials, projectile, and anti zoning game with confusion are all in a class of their own when compared to many other characters in the game. Having some of these tools slightly toned down would do a lot in making him more balanced in comparison to the rest of the cast.
 

TurboLink

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Let's just stop the whining about Mewtwo for a while... 1.1.6 must already be finalized and complaining isn't going to do anything. If at all, if this is the last patch.
Complaining never does anything. We don't control a damn thing. People need to realize this. We're just wasting our breath.
 
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Kofu

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Lemme put it this way.

Ganondorf's fair comes out frame 14, does 17%, has 20/93 BKB/KBG, has no auto cancel (due to a bug that's been in since Brawl SAKURAIIIIIIIIII) and has 22 frames of landing lag.

Mewtwo's fair is 8 frames faster, 4% weaker, has better KBG, autocancels and has 8 fewer frames of landing lag, oh, and is attached to a character that isn't made out of concrete filled with dung.

It's pretty busted. But it really isn't the issue. The real issue is that Sakurai and co. decided to mainline pure mobility into Mewtwo's veins last patch.
That extra 4% is pretty huge for KO potential though. Damage is heavily tied to knockback.

Oil Panic's knockback values are pretty bad but since the move can deal between 18-60% it's justified.
 

L9999

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Tfw ppl are bickering over a high tier and Im just here like, well people have complained about Electro shock before.

Being a Pit/Dark Pit player is weird cause no one ever talks about you, and youre one of the only chars in the game no one complains about lmfao
Sometimes I forget he is in the game. I would like to know why almost no one plays Pit Bros. despite being "good." Seriously, of all the "good" characters, he is the least played, more people play Palutena, Olimar, Peach and other unappealing characters instead of Pit. Pit has edgeguarding, throw combos, good neutral, DP has Electroshock, multiple jumps, good weight, good recovery, good frame data...What makes them so unappealing? From personal exp., I dropped DP because he didn't feel "special" despite having so many unique traits, and I liked the masochist challenge of playing 1111 Guest Mii Swordfighter and Lucina better.
 

Shady Shaymin

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Are we actually now asking for m2 nerfs

How many of you have even attempted to lab or develop counterplay to his "broken" tools like you did with bayonetta, rosa, and pre patch sheik, never mind the fact that mewtwo is nowhere near any of those levels of bonkers
 

SaltyKracka

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That extra 4% is pretty huge for KO potential though. Damage is heavily tied to knockback.

Oil Panic's knockback values are pretty bad but since the move can deal between 18-60% it's justified.
Would you trade 4% for 8 (potentially 16) frames and an autocancel?

God knows I would.
 

ARGHETH

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That extra 4% is pretty huge for KO potential though. Damage is heavily tied to knockback.
Better example:
Robin's Fair does 0.5% less damage, comes in twice the time, has the same KBG, only has 10 more BKB, and has 4 more frames of endlag.
 

Nysyr

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My only beef with M2 is footstool shenanigans. Whether they nerf NAir launch KB/Angle remains to be seen, but is a likely candidate.

Everything else can stay really.
 
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NairWizard

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Tf happened to this thread?

Shaya and Thinkaman are back, patch is hitting, EL is basically saying that Ryu is honest and people are complaining about Mewtwo's f-air?

Sorry I know you guys expect better post quality from me but what the actual **** lmao
 

L9999

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Are we actually now asking for m2 nerfs

How many of you have even attempted to lab or develop counterplay to his "broken" tools like you did with bayonetta, rosa, and pre patch sheik, never mind the fact that mewtwo is nowhere near any of those levels of bonkers
The funny thing is tht most of the people complaining about Mewtwo right now said he was "complete garbage", "would never amount to anything", "a lost hope" o "he is 2 light" prepatch, and when he got buffed they were "M2 is too light to be consistent" or "M2 will not win a single thing wah wha" "bad MUs everywhere"
 

Y2Kay

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Abadango makes Nair Footstool Disable look like a great kill confirm. I can't think of a single Mewtwo Main that can pull it off so consistently in tournament like that. I can only do it in training mode lol.

It kills me to say it, but it's probably has more to do with Abadango being really good at this game, and not because Mewtwo is unbalanced for the game.

:150:
 

Trifroze

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Ganondorf's fair also arcs, has twice as many active frames as Mewtwo's fair, and because damage is directly related to knockback, the fact that Ganondorf's fair has slightly less BKB and KBG than Mewtwo's completely ignores the fact that it does 18% compared to 13% which results in a ton more knockback. It also has a more horizontal angle compared to Mewtwo's diagonal one. Ganondorf's fair's autocancel is terrible but its overall duration in the air is actually alright.

Yeah, Mewtwo's fair is better in the end because it's just that much faster and safer and on a character with much better mobility, but picking out numbers and values selectively while leaving some things out and then comparing them to another character. Why you do?
 

SaltyKracka

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Tf happened to this thread?

Shaya and Thinkaman are back, patch is hitting, EL is basically saying that Ryu is honest and people are complaining about Mewtwo's f-air?

Sorry I know you guys expect better post quality from me but what the actual **** lmao
I'm bored and getting in my annual quota of salt about Ganondorf's state in the game before the patch drops and it turns out they changed his Nair again.

Yeah, Mewtwo's fair is better in the end because it's just that much faster and safer and on a character with much better mobility, but picking out numbers and values selectively while leaving some things out and then comparing them to another character. Why you do?
Because as you just admitted, speed, safety, and mobility completely outweigh and obsolete minor differences in damage, duration, and angle.
 
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Kofu

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Would you trade 4% for 8 (potentially 16) frames and an autocancel?

God knows I would.
The autocancel, sure. (I'd take any auto cancel :4gaw:) But I feel like comparing Ganon's and Mewtwo's FAirs is kind of pointless. Ganon's is essentially a (slow) swordsman FAir with massive power and range. Mewtwo's is a quick, precision strike that happens to do about everything. Mewtwo's FAir is very good but it's similar to a lot of character's BAirs.

Better example:
Robin's Fair does 0.5% less damage, comes in twice the time, has the same KBG, only has 10 more BKB, and has 4 more frames of endlag.
And is also huge, lingering, and transcendent. It does have that minor inconvenience of being semi-limited in use, though.
 

Mr. Johan

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5th fastest on the ground now with an Usmash that kills at 85% with longer moves including a frame 6 Fair?

Well guys, pre-patch Sonic is back. Only this time he's Mewtwo.



jesus ****ing christ

And to think, people tried to downplay my claim way back when.
 

Nysyr

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Wish Lucario actually had auto cancels outside of NAir/DAir. Fallspeed buff actually made SH BAir like super difficult to land properly.

Also wonder if they are gonna patch the BAir hitbox bug, lol.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Considering even Aba still needs a secondary with Mewtwo, you'll have to forgive me for not jumping onto the "Mewtwo is OP" bandwagon...

If the best player of the character, the only one who can do the crazy footstool stuff, is still pulling out a secondary to get his placings clearly there are enough weaknesses in play with the character design.

But hey what do I know, I just play a character that outranges him and can kill him out of a throw at like 70%.
 
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