Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Sonicninja115]

Are we actually now asking for m2 nerfs

How many of you have even attempted to lab or develop counterplay to his "broken" tools like you did with bayonetta, rosa, and pre patch sheik, never mind the fact that mewtwo is nowhere near any of those levels of bonkers

I have labbed Mewtwo counterplay. For example, the best way to get out of Fthrow is to SDI up and into Mewtwo at low percents and up at medium-high percents.

Yoshi can DJ out.

Bowser can't DI or SDI for less damage really, only saving 2% at 100%, however, he only takes 10% from Fthrow instead of 13%.

Fox cannot DI fthrow below 100%, but he can SDI down and in for 7% at 0% and up starting at about 30% for 9%, falling to 7% later I believe.

Also, Mewtwo's Fthrow is super easy to SDI. I am able to input the throw, switch controllers, and then mash for the lowered percents. (PS, I sorta suck at SDI, only Ryu's Utilt and MK Uair for me.)

Fox may have frame advantage at 0% when SDI'ed.

You can also SDI Nair to change your positioning and negate Nair > Footstool.

On Dtilt > DJ Uair > Fair, DI down and away from Mewtwo at lower percents and Up and Away at high percents. The reason for Up and Away is to avoid the Uair possibility.

On Dtilt > Nair > Fair, NEVER DI Up. It extends the life of the combo. Instead, try to fly back and DI Down and Away. Both Fair and Bair will whiff as the DJ sends Mewtwo too high and Confusion isn't possible at that point. For higher percents, I believe the same is true. Though just DI'ing away might be a better idea.

 

[Das Koopa]

Mewtwo does not need nerfs oh my god

He's a good character with good tools, but it's pretty evident that he's not anywhere near domineering. He's not Melee!Sheik where he's The Low Tier Buster, he's not very hard to kill, and certain matchups have the poor fool get bodied. As an example, the Fox matchup looks desperately bad for him based on what footage I've seen. (I may be wrong on this, but Charlie complete destroyed Rich Brown so hard Brown went to his OG Olimar.)

When I think "Needs nerfs", I think:

: Nerf the KBG on her Uair
: Nerf the KBG on True Shoryuken, so it kills at 90-110% and not 70%.
: Adding some risk to Limit Cross Slash by adding endlag, making it a bit weaker.
: Stop her vertical KOs and nerf Witch Time more.
: Increase item throw time, reduce KBG on USmash, reduce range on Dtilt.
: Stop taking her to Smashville http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-2016051763235104

anything below this is really questionable, Mewtwo probably only barely breaks top 10 and there are a lot of other characters in that amorphous 10-20 blob (E.g. ) who don't need nerfs either.

Reminder that Aba's biggest challenge at Pound 2016 was a 3-2 set vs. Dabuz where he had to go Meta Knight to stand a chance and also skid by a good bit on matchup unfamiliarity. He's attended far less stacked tournies he hasn't won.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering even Aba still needs a secondary with Mewtwo, you'll have to forgive me for not jumping onto the "Mewtwo is OP" bandwagon...

If the best player of the character, the only one who can do the crazy footstool stuff, is still pulling out a secondary to get his placings clearly there are enough weaknesses in play with the character design.

But hey what do I know, I just play a character that outranges him and can kill him out of a throw at like 70%.

I've noticed your Mewtwo pessimism for a while, but I want to address this.

The : matchup is not a bad one for Mewtwo, and we've seen why in tournament before and the theory behind it also supports it. Why do you think he used against Rosalinas rather than going Mewtwo? Because it's more favorable and leads for an easier ride through bracket, not because the matchups themselves are questionable or because Mewtwo cannot perform well in the matchups. You want a solid winning matchup or an even matchup? If you were in bracket you'd definitely go for the former.

Plus, another in this world makes the world go round.

Other Mewtwo's who solo main the character such as Rich Brown are still pulling in results, so I'm not seeing what you're trying to prove.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I was completely unaware that people wanted nerfs for M2. He's really good, I'm not gonna deny that but at the end of it all he isn't THAT good. I mean he's really not considered top 10 (and if you think he is, he's probably near the bottom), which means that there are a handful of characters better than him who should probably be nerfed before he is. On top of this, there's like one guy who makes the character look good. No one else has impressed us with this character until Pound. I definitely think he has some goofy stuff integrated in him, but when it comes down to it, he's no more broken than the next character on the tier list.

We should also remember that Abadango made Pac-man and Wario look good. Look at the tier list back when he used them, and look at their placement now. Instead of seeing Abadango as a good player who uses a great character, you should recognize that Abadango is a great player who uses a good character.

 

[ZSaberLink]

On a different note, while the patch was announced, we never got a date for it, right?

 

[Illuminose]

I'm on the 'Ryu is fine' track right now. Interesting that you said @DasKoopa that Mewtwo might be barely breaking top 10 because Ryu is in a similar situation both by matchups and results. Ryu doesn't need nerfs any more than someone like Fox or Mario or ZSS nerfs, that is to say pretty much not at all.

Also Abadango himself thinks Mewtwo beats Rosa, but MK destroys Rosa so he uses MK instead. He can also use MK vs certain other floaties where the MUs are oppressive af, but he uses MK in no other situations. He went Diddy against Bayo but actually won with Mewtwo, so what does that show you? Other people who play solo viable characters counterpick because they are better matchups or personal struggles. Using a secondary does not mean the character isn't solo viable, just that the player wants to opt for more advantageous matchups.

 

[arbustopachon]

nope but they where doing server maintenance, so fingers crossed.

 

[Vycoul]

I just made a post this afternoon saying that I haven't seen enough ridiculous buff/nerf wishlists to justify ESAMs "reminder..."
And then droves of people come out of the woodwork wanting Mewtwo nerfs? What the actual hell?

 

[LancerStaff]

Complaining never does anything. We don't control a damn thing. People need to realize this. We're just wasting our breath.

The problem is that it's not entirely true. Complaining does work. You just have to hope your voice carries over to the Japanese forums Sakurai reads in time for the next patch.

All of a sudden I'm less optimistic about Mewtwo this patch... With how people are here, imagine what people are saying in Japan with Abadango.

Doubt they catch anything of what we say though, and it's definitely too late for this patch.

Better example:
Robin's Fair does 0.5% less damage, comes in twice the time, has the same KBG, only has 10 more BKB, and has 4 more frames of endlag.

Robin's Fair is three times as big and unchallengable. Still a bad example.

 

[Y2Kay]

The Community's Understanding of Mewtwo in a Nutshell:

November:

Mewtwo is too light to be good. Please buff him, Masahiro Sakurai!

January :

Okay, Mewtwo is good, but he's too light to be really good

Present Day:

Oh my god, Mewtwo is really good? But He's the 2nd lightest in the game? This can't be possible, please nerf him, Masahiro Sakurai!

not picking on anyone in particular . . .

Guys, I intended this to be a joke, not a prophecy.

 

[L9999]

: Stop taking her to Smashville http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-2016051763235104

You could show 673 thousand of these oddshots and they would still not learn. The nickname "Sheikville" apparently doesn't ring a bell.

I just made a post this afternoon saying that I've never seen too many ridiculous buff/nerf wishes...
And then droves of people come out of the woodwork wanting Mewtwo nerfs? What the actual hell?

Since Sheik and Diddy are not broken anymore, and everyone already hates on Bayo/Cloud, people don't know what to complain about anymore.

 

[Vycoul]

All of a sudden I'm less optimistic about Mewtwo this patch... With how people are here, imagine what people are saying in Japan with Abadango.

I'm a little worried about that too. But the only time they've buffed then later reverted or toned down said buff was Bowser's downthrow to upair wasn't it? Unless I'm forgetting something.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm on the 'Ryu is fine' track right now. Interesting that you said @DasKoopa that Mewtwo might be barely breaking top 10 because Ryu is in a similar situation both by matchups and results. Ryu doesn't need nerfs any more than someone like Fox or Mario or ZSS nerfs, that is to say pretty much not at all.

Ryu in particular has a rather silly consistent kill confirm that probably shouldn't be as dumb as it is. I can't say the same for Mewtwo, who just generally has a really good toolkit.

Also Abadango himself thinks Mewtwo beats Rosa, but MK destroys Rosa so he uses MK instead. He can also use MK vs certain other floaties where the MUs are oppressive af, but he uses MK in no other situations. He went Diddy against Bayo but actually won with Mewtwo, so what does that show you? Other people who play solo viable characters counterpick because they are better matchups or personal struggles. Using a secondary does not mean the character isn't solo viable, just that the player wants to opt for more advantageous matchups.

Aba can boast about the matchup, but I remain skeptical that he would've beat Dabuz without Meta Knight. It was close with a character who has a really good matchup against Rosalina - is Mewtwo anywhere near this territory? Would Aba have won the long game and not gotten downloaded by the most patient player in competitive Sm4sh?

Mewtwo probably is solo viable, but I don't think Pound 2016 proves that he "needs nerfs" when there are circumstances that should quell the idea that Mewtwo is somehow broken.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've noticed your Mewtwo pessimism for a while, but I want to address this.

The : matchup is not a bad one for Mewtwo, and we've seen why in tournament before and the theory behind it also supports it. Why do you think he used against Rosalinas rather than going Mewtwo? Because it's more favorable and leads for an easier ride through bracket, not because the matchups themselves are questionable or because Mewtwo cannot perform well in the matchups. You want a solid winning matchup or an even matchup? If you were in bracket you'd definitely go for the former.

Plus, another in this world makes the world go round.

Other Mewtwo's who solo main the character such as Rich Brown are still pulling in results, so I'm not seeing what you're trying to prove.

Let me know when Rich Brown wins a super major while pulling off footstool combos.

(Though according to another poster he had to go Olimar so, whoops?)

 

[Ulevo]

People are complaining about the constituents of Mewtwo rather than considering the sum, which is silly given what he is, his current results, and the general consensus of where he is placed on most tier lists and match up charts. He is quite good, he's not so good that forward air is worth complaining about.

In contrast, Sheik's pre-patch forward air was ridiculous, but it was not ridiculous because of its frame data, knock back base or growth, size, et cetera. It was ridiculous because it was Sheik that had it.

If anything is worth touching, I would say it would be the footstool Disable followup.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo's match up spread is easily one of the best things about him Das Koopa

are the only ones I'd really say M2 loses to, but we have some evidence that is contrary to this.

None of them to be honest is worse than 45:55, there are just a lot less more room for error.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Mewtwo does not need nerfs oh my god

He's a good character with good tools, but it's pretty evident that he's not anywhere near domineering. He's not Melee!Sheik where he's The Low Tier Buster, he's not very hard to kill, and certain matchups have the poor fool get bodied. As an example, the Fox matchup looks desperately bad for him based on what footage I've seen. (I may be wrong on this, but Charlie complete destroyed Rich Brown so hard Brown went to his OG Olimar.)

When I think "Needs nerfs", I think:

: Nerf the KBG on her Uair
: Nerf the KBG on True Shoryuken, so it kills at 90-110% and not 70%.
: Adding some risk to Limit Cross Slash by adding endlag, making it a bit weaker.
: Stop her vertical KOs and nerf Witch Time more.
: Increase item throw time, reduce KBG on USmash, reduce range on Dtilt.
: Stop taking her to Smashville http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-2016051763235104

anything below this is really questionable, Mewtwo probably only barely breaks top 10 and there are a lot of other characters in that amorphous 10-20 blob (E.g. ) who don't need nerfs either.

Reminder that Aba's biggest challenge at Pound 2016 was a 3-2 set vs. Dabuz where he had to go Meta Knight to stand a chance and also skid by a good bit on matchup unfamiliarity. He's attended far less stacked tournies he hasn't won.

I don't think Item throw time is a problem with Diddy.

He's pretty much identical to Link & Toon Link with most of those stats.

 

[Shaya]

Tf happened to this thread?

Shaya and Thinkaman are back, patch is hitting, EL is basically saying that Ryu is honest and people are complaining about Mewtwo's f-air?

Sorry I know you guys expect better post quality from me but what the actual **** lmao

Whenever I come back I'm presented with a choice:
Ignore everything, or ban 50% or more of the active users in this thread

---------------------------

Why is "overpowered" or "broken" the goal line for balance changes?
It's not what's happened, time and time again.

Doth though forget the Back Air of Falcon?

Mewtwo isn't some huge meta threat. But that hasn't stopped the balancing team before.
Remember: ZSS seen as second best character in the game for a long time with mid tier results (i.e. similar to Pikachu, lol) outside of tippity top levels of play. You probably weren't personally dealing with a dangerous ZSS in a live competitive environment but you were complaining about her nevertheless (I don't disagree with her needing nerfs, but I do dislike the way they nerfed her).

Will the world be over if Mewtwo's fair was roughly 1/13th weaker? Would its even longer combo window be of counter-benefit (unless they're going to do a Diddy/ZSS nerf and heavily alter base/growths to mess up it's use and feel significantly - my sympathies if so)?
Heck, it may not even be forward air they touch, but it's seemingly the most relevant example.

Balance is balancing.
The power level the balance team considers fine/justified has been very very very very ambiguous ever since Cloud was released. No one is safe, except maybe Mario (but we know 80% if not more of the cast is worse than Mario).
In the case of Mewtwo, I see it as just a possibility more so than essential; lest the game will devolve into mewtwo dittos in grand finals for the rest of the game's life time (is it possible to make balance suggestions without this being the presumed predicament?).
Abadango was hailed by the entirety of the Japan (because everyone reads Nisekoi) for his crushing defeat of the imperialist scum whilst on foreign soil, a feat not achieved for 70 years! (forgive me)
It's a result that would've been observed by the balance team, no doubt.

So I'd say there's a certain degree of likelihood he could be in line for reductions. Don't be sad. Don't be afraid.
Continue pushing yourself to get better.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Mewtwo is a good character.

Why do people seem to want him to not be a good character (as screaming for nerfs implies), as opposed to producing more good characters?

Mewtwo has a solid gameplan and many tools to fulfill it with. Other characters do not. What makes Mewtwo good isn't his additional tools, it's the comparative else's lack thereof.

As a character, Mewtwo feels fluid and fun. Several characters in the game definitively do not. I'd rather Mewtwo stay fluid and fun than drop down to 'not'. I'd optimistically prefer more characters become equally fluid and fun.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't think Item throw time is a problem with Diddy.

He's pretty much identical to Link & Toon Link with most of those stats.

I'm basically thinking there should be some way of reducing how effective Banana should be in a practical way and I'm not sure how you'd accomplish it without either

A: Increasing throw time.
B: Reducing the gains Diddy gets off of the Banana, i.e., making the up smash knockback worse.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I guess we arent getting the patch today. Rip :/


Also people calm your **** about Mewtwo lmfao

 

[Rran]

Why is "overpowered" or "broken" the goal line for balance changes?
It's not what's happened, time and time again.

I don't think this point can be stressed enough.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So I take it we are buffing Bayonetta tonight then? Nice.

"Also all nerfs to have been undone and every buff given to has been removed because **** you all, my arm still hurts." -Sakurai

 

[Das Koopa]

Mewtwo's match up spread is easily one of the best things about him Das Koopa

are the only ones I'd really say M2 loses to, but we have some evidence that is contrary to this.

None of them to be honest is worse than 45:55, there are just a lot less more room for error.

Charlie double eliminating Rich last night at MSM seems like solid evidence that the matchup is definitely not in Mewtwo's favor for , but I'd like to see something more definitive like Larry Lurr vs. Abadango.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I don't know that I can speak for all or even most of the people complaining about Mewtwo, but every time I want to complain about him, it's because I looked at the loving slew of massive buffs he received and something in the back of my head said "why not my character?"

 

[Strong-Arm]

The thing about this thread is that its very easy for things to spiral out of control.

8/10 ppl here dont really know what theyre talking about but think that if they spout out random frame data or 2 minute theories that they know what theyre talking about.

People need to calm their butts down. Mew2 is fine. Bayo and Cloud are the only chars i see receiving any notable nerfs. Im not going to say what will happen cause like all of you I dont know. Just calm yourselves and stop trying to find some new char thats "going to break the game" if bayo and Cloud are knocked down a few pegs. Maybe sometimes there isnt that one character that breaks the game. Hush darlings.

 

[Y2Kay]

Charlie double eliminating Rich last night at MSM seems like solid evidence that the matchup is definitely not in Mewtwo's favor for , but I'd like to see something more definitive like Larry Lurr vs. Abadango.

Mew^2 has beaten Megafox and Aba has beaten a high level Fox in Japan (Shogun?)

Didn't know about MSM tho

 

[Big-Cat]

The complaints here are funny because it's not Mewtwo's speed or aerials that annoy me. It's his projectile, and they haven't touched that much if at all lol.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Better example:
Robin's Fair does 0.5% less damage, comes in twice the time, has the same KBG, only has 10 more BKB, and has 4 more frames of endlag.

Robin's aerials are also broken af.

But Robin is like the slowest character in the game so w/e. Compared to Spewtwos crazy mobility ofc.

 

[Y2Kay]

The complaints here are funny because it's not Mewtwo's speed or aerials that annoy me. It's his projectile, and they haven't touched that much if at all lol.

they made it even bigger in 1.1.3 lol

That buff was pretty genius if you asked me

 

[Big-Cat]

they made it even bigger in 1.1.3 lol

That buff was pretty genius if you asked me

Oh did they? Never really noticed as I just typically block them.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'm basically thinking there should be some way of reducing how effective Banana should be in a practical way and I'm not sure how you'd accomplish it without either

A: Increasing throw time.
B: Reducing the gains Diddy gets off of the Banana, i.e., making the up smash knockback worse.

Or people could actually just start using the Banana against Diddy. Seriously, not enough people do that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't know that I can speak for all or even most of the people complaining about Mewtwo, but every time I want to complain about him, it's because I looked at the loving slew of massive buffs he received and something in the back of my head said "why not my character?"

Your character isn't DLC.

The general balancing idea seems to be "kill braindead things" so Corrin Side B, Cloud/Bayo everything and Mewtwo are probably prime targets for nerfs.

Or people could actually just start using the Banana against Diddy. Seriously, not enough people do that.

don't be silly, the people you're saying this to think it's ok for Mewtwo to kill people off nair at 50% but Diddy Kong having a kill confirm into usmash that kills at 130%?! BROKEN.

 

[Das Koopa]

Or people could actually just start using the Banana against Diddy. Seriously, not enough people do that.

Fair enough, people don't counterplay hard enough with active projectiles. It's weird playing R.O.B and watch my opponent rarely ever go for my best projectile <_<

 

[KamikazePotato]

I'm not going to touch the subject of whether or not Mewtwo is too good - jeez that's a sore subject around here - but I do think that a lot of people are misinterpreting what game balance is supposed to achieve.

Let's assume, FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, that Ryu is a Top 10 character. People will say that Ryu is 'fine' because he's not broken, because he's not the best character in the game, ect. And in a sense, they're not wrong. Ryu isn't overpowering and he can be beaten.

But when it comes to trying to make every character in the game equally as good...then yes, Ryu should be nerfed. Or have everyone under him buffed - which is the same thing as a nerf, just indirectly. Let's say that the developers consider the golden standard power level for the game to be, I don't know, Ike because he's my main so whatever lol. Consequently, that means that everyone that is perceived to be better than Ike should be nerfed, and everyone perceived to be worse than Ike should be buffed. The ideal is to have every character in the game be equally good.

I think people tend to overlook their mains' strengths a lot. A character should not be excused from nerfs just because Diddy Kong is better. Now, the challenge is to figure out where the base power level for the game should lie, and which characters are above or below that power level...but that's a job for the developers. And so far, they've done a very good job at making the cast closer to that baseline as a whole.

 

[Y2Kay]

Your character isn't DLC.

The general balancing idea seems to be "kill braindead things" so Corrin Side B, Cloud/Bayo everything and Mewtwo are probably prime targets for nerfs.

Alright bruh . . . . I'll bite

How is Mewtwo, a character that's got the Grimm Reaper breathin' down his neck all the frickin' time, "Brain dead"?

 

[Kofu]

Robin's aerials are also broken af.

But Robin is like the slowest character in the game so w/e. Compared to Spewtwos crazy mobility ofc.

Robin's Levin UAir can kill at ground level around 90-100% with rage.

It's kiiiiiiiiiiinda borked.

 

[NairWizard]

Whenever I come back I'm presented with a choice:
Ignore everything, or ban 50% or more of the active users in this thread

Why is "overpowered" or "broken" the goal line for balance changes?
It's not what's happened, time and time again.

Doth though forget the Back Air of Falcon?

Mewtwo isn't some huge meta threat. But that hasn't stopped the balancing team before.
Remember: ZSS seen as second best character in the game for a long time with mid tier results (i.e. similar to Pikachu, lol) outside of tippity top levels of play. Y

ou probably weren't personally dealing with a dangerous ZSS in a live competitive environment but you were complaining about her nevertheless (I don't disagree with her needing nerfs, but I do dislike the way they nerfed her).

Will the world be over if Mewtwo's fair was roughly 1/13th weaker? Would its even longer combo window be of counter-benefit (unless they're going to do a Diddy/ZSS nerf and heavily alter base/growths to mess up it's use and feel significantly - my sympathies if so)?
Don't be sad. Don't be afraid.
Continue pushing yourself to get better.

This has nothing to do with my playing Mewtwo, I play like half the cast and you know that

These lines are way too personally directed, "Don't be afraid, push yourself to get better"? And when did I complain about ZSS other than assessing her as a really good (possibly #1) character after a round of buffs?

the original post was just a play on the chaos in the topic

pardon me for triggering you though

 

[Big-Cat]

Robin's Levin UAir can kill at ground level around 90-100% with rage.

It's kiiiiiiiiiiinda borked.

You only get seven uses of the Levin Sword at a time. There's a reason for that.

 

[TurboLink]

Whenever I come back I'm presented with a choice:
Ignore everything, or ban 50% or more of the active users in this thread

Why is "overpowered" or "broken" the goal line for balance changes?
It's not what's happened, time and time again.

Doth though forget the Back Air of Falcon?

Mewtwo isn't some huge meta threat. But that hasn't stopped the balancing team before.
Remember: ZSS seen as second best character in the game for a long time with mid tier results (i.e. similar to Pikachu, lol) outside of tippity top levels of play. You probably weren't personally dealing with a dangerous ZSS in a live competitive environment but you were complaining about her nevertheless (I don't disagree with her needing nerfs, but I do dislike the way they nerfed her).

Will the world be over if Mewtwo's fair was roughly 1/13th weaker? Would its even longer combo window be of counter-benefit (unless they're going to do a Diddy/ZSS nerf and heavily alter base/growths to mess up it's use and feel significantly - my sympathies if so)?

Balance is balancing.
The power level the balance team considers fine/justified has been very very very very ambiguous ever since Cloud was released. No one is safe, except maybe Mario (but we know 80% if not more of the cast is worse than Mario).
In the case of Mewtwo, I see it as just a possibility more so than essential; lest the game will devolve into mewtwo dittos in grand finals for the rest of the game's life time (is it possible to make balance suggestions without this being the presumed predicament?).
Abadango was hailed by the entirety of the Japan (because everyone reads Nisekoi) for his crushing defeat of the imperialist scum whilst on foreign soil, a feat not achieved for 70 years! (forgive me)
It's a result that would've been observed by the balance team, no doubt.

So I'd say there's a certain degree of likelihood he could be in line for reductions. Don't be sad. Don't be afraid.
Continue pushing yourself to get better.

Considering King Dedede got an air speed nerf when he already had the worst air speed in the game, nobody is safe.