Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Oh I didn't know that iStudy is going to Smash Con as well, that's nice to know.

Shame about Some though, I really wanted to see him in action again.

Also I know it's not ordered but Abadango placing Roy below Jigglypuff is just sad.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Patch discussion thread is locked and presumably will only open once the patch comes out. So, in the meantime, the stuff goes here.

Everyone please remember this is not a general speculation thread for the patch. And as usual, any ****posts don't belong here.

I'm also gonna ask people to refrain from posting wishlists rather than actual predictions, including about DLC characters/stages.

Seems pretty clear to me. Gonna probs keep listening to Izzy on this one.

 

[Y2Kay]

Well, we can see that Abadango knows nothing about making a correct tier list.
Even my sub-par tier lists are better than THAT mess.
Seriously Abadango, you HAVE to make a tier list for bait?

His tier list isn't that bad tho lol. Besides common japanese things like underrating Ike, it's fine.

Also boi pls I've seen you but Ganon in mid tier before.

 

[Trifroze]

Some things to consider are that there's a clear tendency to remove or nerf kill setups, especially early ones and those from grabs, from characters who are seen as competitively capable (Diddy, Luigi, Sheik, ZSS, MK). At the same time characters who aren't seen as competitively capable are getting kill setups exactly like the ones being removed from better characters (DK, Ike, Robin, Bowser).

Also if a character boasts really good top level results they'll receive some quality of life nerfs to their most useful moves (Sheik, Sonic, Rosalina, ZSS) and if a character has great results across the board a similar thing will happen (Greninja, Mario, Little Mac, Falcon, Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin). Quality of life buffs on the other hand seem to be given on a who knows what basis as long as they belong to neither of those groups, maybe to characters who aren't doing particularly well on any game mode or in any source of statistics. Tier lists of various major communities may play a small part, if anything at all.

Lastly, if a character has been nerfed hard, it's sometimes made up for later on or simultaneously in some way even if the characters aren't terrible afterwards.

With all that in mind here are some facts:

- Bayonetta essentially consists of early kill setups
- Cloud, Diddy, Bayonetta and Mario have the best overall results
- Sheik was considerably nerfed previous patch and her results are still good
- ZSS was considerably nerfed previous patch and her results average below top 20, but Nairo's still winning big things
- Corrin was considerably nerfed previous patch and her results are still good
- Mewtwo's results are below top 20, but he was used by a Japanese player (who realistically speaking got MK nerfed earlier) to win a major while also using nair into footstool into disable a few times
- Ryu has relatively easy TSRK confirms but his results are more similar to ZSS than the rest who were mentioned
- 1.1.6 is 60mb (i.e. tiny)

With all in mind I expect that in 1.1.5 they were seeing if nerfing Bayonetta without touching her combos was enough, and it wasn't, so something is probably going to be done to her now. Something small might be done to Cloud or Diddy, maybe Mario, Fox or Rosalina, but it can't be all or even most of them. Sheik might see an additional nerf to fthrow KBG, ZSS might see compensation of small sorts (personal hope bias here), Corrin will honestly likely be left alone because they are aware of side b like they are aware of Ness' bthrow and Mario's usmash, and Mewtwo might see a nerf although it would most likely just be Shadow Ball lag increase and/or the removal of nair -> footstool -> disable somehow. Ryu will likely be left alone because his confirms haven't yet been exploited "in front of the people watching" enough. I don't think buffs will happen but maybe Ganondorf gets something again.

On that note, my guess/hope/aeiou patch list:

- Bayonetta nerfs, likely nothing that destroys the character because it has never been done before and it wasn't done in 1.1.5 either
- Cloud's limit charge time increase and/or smash KBG nerfs
- Increased endlag on SB for Mewtwo and/or nair -> footstool -> disable removal
- Increased KBG on Sheik's fthrow, smash buffs for compensation
- ZSS grab endlag decrease to make up for active frames reduction, maybe side b buff part 2

and now I wait

 

[Das Koopa]

Well, we can see that Abadango knows nothing about making a correct tier list.
Even my sub-par tier lists are better than THAT mess.
Seriously Abadango, you HAVE to make a tier list for bait?

His tier is actually pretty good overall, I'd say 90% of it seems about right

 

[Strong-Arm]

Palutena buffs would be nice

 

[Ninety]

Robin's Levin UAir can kill at ground level around 90-100% with rage.

It's kiiiiiiiiiiinda borked.

You only get seven uses of the Levin Sword at a time. There's a reason for that.

Yeah, I'd say Robin is one of the more... extremely designed characters in the game. People who don't play him much tend not to appreciate just how crazy good his aerials are (bar dair, I'd kill for a FAF buff there), especially in conjunction with Arthunder and Arcfire, and Checkmate seals stocks like no one's business -- I'd even say it's one of the best kill confirms in the game. On the other hand, some of his weaknesses aren't immediately apparent either -- landing options, linear recovery and awful mobility specs aside from the obvious (such as bottom tier jumpsquat and dash to shield, for some goddamned reason). Not having many GET OFF ME moves in either air or ground (although f4 jab helps, on the air we ain't doing nothing before f9), doesn't actually hurt him so much considering his focus on spacing and zoning with disjoints and projectiles.

All of this is why, as much as I'd love it to, I can't really expect a run/walk speed buff. Even if it's not particularly true to his game, and even if RObin will never be high tier while it's in place, his poor speed is an integral part of Sakurai's design. It's telling that most of the buffs bar 1.1.0's godlike dthrow fix were focused on improving his strengths rather than patching up his weaknesses. Hell, aside from a very slight weight buff, a similar philosophy (improve the good rather than the bad) brought Mewtwo from bottom tier to the edge of top. Considering this, I think a better grab and perhaps slightly improved frame data on grounded normals and Arcfire would be about what can be reasonably expected while keeping his feel as a character. I sincerely think he'd rise to at least the Tink/Greninja/ROB tier if he had his ground speed buffed to even average, but in all likelihood, it ain't happening.

I'd drop the durability system in a heartbeat, though. Take a cue from Fates, Sakurai.

 

[Respect38]

It would probably have been better to have a patch theorizing thread of its own and then locking it and to starting an official patch thread when it drops; but what we have is what they decided to go with.

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

I'm just scared for more marth buffs

 

[FallofBrawl]

Some patch notes predictions/relevance to character/meta

Spoiler

I predict is getting:
- an angle change on her grounded up-b and an increase in the final hit's knockback to truly make it hard to follow up out of.
- Remove climax cancelling if that's still there (?)
- I feel she's also getting more lag on her multiple special uses in the air, at most, make it like Lucario's landing up b (around 60 frames, increasing all her specials landing lag by about 7 frames, 43->60)
- Mayyybe a decrease in knockback on her fthrow
- Divekick is going to be left alone, people need to learn how to spotdodge/SHAD more as a defensive option rather than approach tool. And it just so happens these options are great vs Bouncing Fish and ZSS flipkick.


- Decrease in knockback on the descent of climhazzard so it doesn't get ridiculous early kills (See Seibrik vs M2K)
- Damage, KBG reduced on Limit Cross slash, killing 25-30% later
- Decrease duration of dair by 3-4 frames, reduce knockback
- Reduce damage of normal climhazzard by a bit
-Fair landing lag increased by 2-3 frames
-Cross slash now connect properly at all percents, I dont like it when people jump out of it
- Fair damage increase because dair is better in every other way, fair needs some love
- Either match utilt hitbox with the graphic or increase duration


-Decrease damage of ftilt by 1.5%
- Decrease landing lag of dark dive when landing on stage
- Decrease start up of jab 6-7 --> 4-5, decrease FAF by 3 frames 28-25 F
- Decrease start up on ftilt by 3 frames 10-12 -> 7-9, decrease FAF by 5 frames 40 -> 35
- Decrease dark dive start up by 2 frames


- Increase bair active frames from 1 -> 3 F
- Increase nair hitbox horizontallly
- Decrease dair landing lag 30 -> 24 (Currently this move is so weird and difficult to properly use as a combo extender, needs to shift use elsewhere)
- Decrease FAF of fair, making her problems with shield much more feasible for the weaknesses we get with her.37 -> 27


- DTilt startup reduced from frame 9-10 -> 6-7. FAF reduced from 31 -> 25. Charizard is overall a pretty grounded character, I feel dev would be smart enough to make his pokes more safer (if not now than later)
- U smash fix so second hit picks up grounded opponents behind Zard and so first hit -> second hit on platforms (increase second hit hitbox)
- Initial dashspeed increase


- nerf to true shoryuken kbg, with rage + amount of setups into it, it's sure to get nerfed by a bit
-I don't believe the dev team is intending to butcher Ryu, his FG results aren't that great + 3rd party + not too dominant at any level of gameplay (except for maybe, higjh level)


- Nothing with his grab (sorry Pacmains) but an increase to run speed to help him confirm off his traps better (1.52 -> 1.535)

 

[Shaya]

Our Queen recognises that she erred by abolishing general speculation for the patch without providing a new system to replace it.
So here is the Queen's proposal:
Patch speculation should never return to the CI [for at least $1.99 months], but she will give the other speculahs of the competitive section time to adjust to posting in the general section about it: http://smashboards.com/threads/436830/

Instead of abolishing ****terism before you can even blink, we will give you seven seconds to end the practice.

In exchange you'll cut off your support for characters who you think do or do not deserve changes on superficial or unsubstantiated grounds.
"We don't support any nerfs to non-Bayonetta"
Fine, but you'll cut it off all the same.

I do hope you'll accept my friends, you will not receive a better offer.
*ring*

Let us sail the tides of freedom...
give properly designated sections a chance, see if it doesn't taste every bit as good as what came before.
[I'm pretty sure we all know what's more hype than patches]

Mild translation: meme-tier posts AT THE LEAST should go in the thread linked above, but there's nothing wrong with being more in depth there either.
As a general reminder - things of an analytical nature tend to always be okay here still, within reason.

 

[Nobie]

Re: Palutena's success

I was looking at Prince Ramen's victory over 8BitMan (ROB) and I noticed a few things.

First, when it comes to highlighting Palutena's relatively bad frame data, her attacks may seem awful against the fastest characters in the game, but as you get less impressive in frame data the disparity shrinks tremendously.

Second, I noticed that Prince Ramen uses a lot of empty short hops to both bait and threaten, and that it works well in conjunction with Palutena's quick aerial acceleration (best in the game alongside Mega Man and Peach), the speed and safety of fair, and the power and invincibility of bair. We talk about how tremendously good Witch Time is, but Palutena bair is sort of similar to it (albeit with less reward). If Palutena can scare you into throwing out an attack, and she can predict it and bair, then she will win that trade 99% of the time. It comes at a small risk because the landing lag on bair is pretty gnarly, but against someone like ROB who values being able to throw out large, meaty aerials, it puts a monkey wrench in his game plan.

Third, up air is really good. Like wow.

 

[Jams.]

Also why is Palutena doing so well despite in theory her being awful?

I personally feel like the topic of Palutena's viability should deserve more attention. She's one of the characters with the greatest dissonance between theory (where she sucks) and results (where she looks borderline solo viable). While many people have posted strong results from Palutena mains and others have briefly acknowledged them, I feel like there hasn't really been a discussion on Palutena's theory in quite some time (RIP Wintropy why did you leave us QQ).

It seems that "Palutena's theory sucks" has been stated often recently, which assumes everyone has some common understanding of how this character works; however, I doubt that this understanding is present, especially given her results have not dropped off at all so she must be good at something. The alternative explanation is that this game is just balanced very well and her solo mains are godlike, but I think a look at her theory is interesting so let's overlook this explanation for now.

I'll admit to not being very knowledgeable about this character, but I should probably do some analysis instead of just asking questions all the time. I think the two key factors keeping her somewhat viable are her mobility and dthrow. These two traits synergize well with the functional parts of her moveset to give her a decent gameplan. Speaking of her moveset, I feel like there's too much focus on her dysfunctional moves (her tilts and sort of her smashes) without enough credit given to her functional moves (most of her moveset). With that tangent over, here's some analysis about my talking points.

Her mobility allows her to play footsies in neutral without letting most opponents rush her down easily. This is important since she's objectively terrible in CQC, with her fastest grounded option being her frame 8 jab; dash attack is technically invincible frame 4 and active frame 6, but a poor CQC option because it's high risk low reward. Her aerials are not great combo breakers either, with nair and bair both having pretty situational hitboxes despite being somewhat fast. Luckily, she's faster than most of the cast, being 13th in run speed and 14th in walk speed; her walk along with her great aerial acceleration, tied for best in the game, and good traction also helps her space in footsies range where she wants to be. Her short hop also feels fairly quick despite the fact that her fall speed is very low (40th), possibly because her gravity is fairly high (15th). She can also stop zoning with Reflect Barrier and Autoreticle, which can force zoners to play her game. If Palutena is more mobile than her opponent, she can pressure them with her decently safe fair and jab and her invincible bair while mixing up with empty hops, dash grabs, and dash attacks and avoid her poor CQC.

Dthrow is pretty self-explanatory. It's her primary combo throw and also her kill confirm, so she'll be using this throw 90%+ of the time she gets a grab. She wants to use this move as much as possible, since staling it gives her access to dthrow->uair, which can kill fairly early and reliably; at higher percents, it looks like she can do dthrow->uair or dthrow->RAR bair to cover DI in and DI out. How good this throw is counterbalanced by her incredibly laggy grabs. However, having a high reward grab that can also seal stocks is an incredible asset that alone can push a character into viability (see: Bowser, DK), and I feel it is one of her biggest assets that separate her from her low tier brethren. The dthrow also gives her a medium risk/high reward option to compliment her lower risk and lower reward aerials, as well as give much more threat to her jab.

This post got ninja'd by Nobie part way through, but I'm gonna post it anyway because it took some time to write.

 

[juddy96]

I personally feel like the topic of Palutena's viability should deserve more attention. She's one of the characters with the greatest dissonance between theory (where she sucks) and results (where she looks borderline solo viable). While many people have posted strong results from Palutena mains and others have briefly acknowledged them, I feel like there hasn't really been a discussion on Palutena's theory in quite some time (RIP Wintropy why did you leave us QQ).

It seems that "Palutena's theory sucks" has been stated often recently, which assumes everyone has some common understanding of how this character works; however, I doubt that this understanding is present, especially given her results have not dropped off at all so she must be good at something. The alternative explanation is that this game is just balanced very well and her solo mains are godlike, but I think a look at her theory is interesting so let's overlook this explanation for now.

I'll admit to not being very knowledgeable about this character, but I should probably do some analysis instead of just asking questions all the time. I think the two key factors keeping her somewhat viable are her mobility and dthrow. These two traits synergize well with the functional parts of her moveset to give her a decent gameplan. Speaking of her moveset, I feel like there's too much focus on her dysfunctional moves (her tilts and sort of her smashes) without enough credit given to her functional moves (most of her moveset). With that tangent over, here's some analysis about my talking points.

Her mobility allows her to play footsies in neutral without letting most opponents rush her down easily. This is important since she's objectively terrible in CQC, with her fastest grounded option being her frame 8 jab; dash attack is technically invincible frame 4 and active frame 6, but a poor CQC option because it's high risk low reward. Her aerials are not great combo breakers either, with nair and bair both having pretty situational hitboxes despite being somewhat fast. Luckily, she's faster than most of the cast, being 13th in run speed and 14th in walk speed; her walk along with her great aerial acceleration, tied for best in the game, and good traction also helps her space in footsies range where she wants to be. Her short hop also feels fairly quick despite the fact that her fall speed is very low (40th), possibly because her gravity is fairly high (15th). She can also stop zoning with Reflect Barrier and Autoreticle, which can force zoners to play her game. If Palutena is more mobile than her opponent, she can pressure them with her decently safe fair and jab and her invincible bair while mixing up with empty hops, dash grabs, and dash attacks and avoid her poor CQC.

Dthrow is pretty self-explanatory. It's her primary combo throw and also her kill confirm, so she'll be using this throw 90%+ of the time she gets a grab. She wants to use this move as much as possible, since staling it gives her access to dthrow->uair, which can kill fairly early and reliably; at higher percents, it looks like she can do dthrow->uair or dthrow->RAR bair to cover DI in and DI out. How good this throw is counterbalanced by her incredibly laggy grabs. However, having a high reward grab that can also seal stocks is an incredible asset that alone can push a character into viability (see: Bowser, DK), and I feel it is one of her biggest assets that separate her from her low tier brethren. The dthrow also gives her a medium risk/high reward option to compliment her lower risk and lower reward aerials, as well as give much more threat to her jab.

This post got ninja'd by Nobie part way through, but I'm gonna post it anyway because it took some time to write.

Maybe you should ask some of your Palutena questions to Iceninja at GOML, I'm sure he'd be willing to answer them. However just thinking of Iceninja I shudder at having to mod a chat full of hooligans making fun of his cosplay...

 

[Gawain]

Yeah, I'd say Robin is one of the more... extremely designed characters in the game. People who don't play him much tend not to appreciate just how crazy good his aerials are (bar dair, I'd kill for a FAF buff there), especially in conjunction with Arthunder and Arcfire, and Checkmate seals stocks like no one's business -- I'd even say it's one of the best kill confirms in the game. On the other hand, some of his weaknesses aren't immediately apparent either -- landing options, linear recovery and awful mobility specs aside from the obvious (such as bottom tier jumpsquat and dash to shield, for some goddamned reason). Not having many GET OFF ME moves in either air or ground (although f4 jab helps, on the air we ain't doing nothing before f9), doesn't actually hurt him so much considering his focus on spacing and zoning with disjoints and projectiles.

All of this is why, as much as I'd love it to, I can't really expect a run/walk speed buff. Even if it's not particularly true to his game, and even if RObin will never be high tier while it's in place, his poor speed is an integral part of Sakurai's design. It's telling that most of the buffs bar 1.1.0's godlike dthrow fix were focused on improving his strengths rather than patching up his weaknesses. Hell, aside from a very slight weight buff, a similar philosophy (improve the good rather than the bad) brought Mewtwo from bottom tier to the edge of top. Considering this, I think a better grab and perhaps slightly improved frame data on grounded normals and Arcfire would be about what can be reasonably expected while keeping his feel as a character. I sincerely think he'd rise to at least the Tink/Greninja/ROB tier if he had his ground speed buffed to even average, but in all likelihood, it ain't happening.

I'd drop the durability system in a heartbeat, though. Take a cue from Fates, Sakurai.

I disagree with dropping the durability thing, both in smash and in FE in general lol. I think it adds something unique to the character and just needs to be approached differently.

And my prediction Is that this patch is going to be relatively small. I think we will see a fairly noticeably reduction to Bayonetta but everyone else is going to see few changes outside MAYBE one or two lower tiers getting an array of changes(usually par for patches). I think it's not really possible to predict specifically who besides the obvious Bayonetta. And even then, there's something in the back of my head saying that Bayo won't get touched much; you can never be sure.

 

[ARGHETH]

I disagree with dropping the durability thing, both in smash and in FE in general lol. I think it adds something unique to the character and just needs to be approached differently.

Yeah...durability was in every game until Fates; it's a big part of the series. It also makes sense in an FE context, since aside from Roy, Robin is the only character with in-game breakable weapons.
The tomes and sword are also really good projectiles.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I'm basically thinking there should be some way of reducing how effective Banana should be in a practical way and I'm not sure how you'd accomplish it without either

A: Increasing throw time.
B: Reducing the gains Diddy gets off of the Banana, i.e., making the up smash knockback worse.

That is absurd. You want to butcher an already relatively weak usmash? You guys want to butcher his banana before his counterplay has any time to develop into something usable? You want all this right after two nerfs, and four months of people saying he's barely top ten?

 

[Teshie U]

The only problem with Diddy Kong's banana game (if there is any) is when his opponent lacks safe options. You can't just throw bananas at the landings and endlag of other top/high tiers nonstop.

Diddy Kong doesn't oppress good characters, he just EASILY bodies characters that are already poorly balanced or have strengths they can't properly apply vs him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think it's about time for Greninja mains to come to terms with the idea that their main isn't really that good a character after all. The significance of istudy's placing at Beast VI has always been overstated in a couple of different ways and apart from that we've only seen some occasional individual splashes from a handful of players - I don't think his results add up to more than solid-mid tier and by now we have enough observable data to take his results at face value.




These characters all have results that easily trump Greninja's - in terms of quantity, quality and consistency.


These characters frequently and consisently do well at various kinds of tournaments and levels of play. They also occasionally do well at bigger tournaments, moreso than Greninja for sure.


All of these characters have a couple of players that regularly perform well in various competent regions: [at least] Ryuga and Yoc for Corrin, Will and Hikaru for DK, Yusan and Brood for DH, Ryo and Waldo for Ike, Pugwest and Mr E for Marth, Umeki and SlayerZ for Peach, Holy and Longo for ROB, Reflex and Nasubi for Wario and Raptor, The Wall and Yika for Yoshi.
The best players of these characters also play approximately on a similar level of skill of the best Greninja player does, which basically means that Greninja competes with at least nine characters for his spot.

Then you have characters with individual results that arguably trump Greninja's best achievements:
* Motsunabe won a japanese major tournament with solo Lucario. He beat Nietono [Diddy/Sheik], Kirihara [Rosalina] and KEN [Sonic] in the process. Inconsistent character but more likely to win a tournament solo than Greninja is.
* Teiheita has beaten sever top level players in Japan with Lucas. Still somewhat of a wildcard character but it's not implausible to see him as a direct competitor to Greninja for their spot on the tier list.
* Shuton's 2nd place with Olimar at the last Umebura arguably matches all of Greninja's results. Wins against Nietono, Kamemushi and several other top level players.
* Earth won a japanese regional where he double-eliminated Ranai and he places regularly well with Pit.
* Trela winning a 260-man SoCal major with solo Ryu may or may not have been a singular occurence but Greninja is hardly in a position to dispute Ryu's claim for a higher spot on the tier list.

And then you have characters that have kind of fallen off the map, whose position on the tierlist is currently unclear but at one point had results that Greninja has yet to match: Villager, Pikachu and even Pac-Man had those.

If you add up all of that it's really, really hard to argue Greninja to be on the borderline between high- and high-mid tier. From Bayonetta to Toon Link there's already 16 characters that straight-up outperform Greninja globally and it's hard to argue Greninja to be better than Pikachu and Villager, not to mention Ryu. So we're already dealing with at least 18 characters we can reasonably be assume to be better than Greninja. But it doesn't just end there because you still have a crapton of characters who perform on approximately the same level as Greninja, about 12 I'd say. As things stand Greninja is floating somewhere between the 19th and the 30th spot on the tier list - that's about as mid-tier as mid-tier gets.

Greninja has a lot of work left to do to show us that he's better than that.

 

[BunbUn129]

Aba can boast about the matchup, but I remain skeptical that he would've beat Dabuz without Meta Knight. It was close with a character who has a really good matchup against Rosalina - is Mewtwo anywhere near this territory? Would Aba have won the long game and not gotten downloaded by the most patient player in competitive Sm4sh?

Mewtwo probably is solo viable, but I don't think Pound 2016 proves that he "needs nerfs" when there are circumstances that should quell the idea that Mewtwo is somehow broken.

It was close because Abadango kept SD'ing. Dabuz won 2 games and in both those games Aba SD'ed. It would've been a clean 3-0 otherwise. What did I say about people not putting results and numbers into context?

The fact that Aba won even though he was playing sloppily says a lot about the MU, and I'm confident he still would've won if he went M2, considering he plays that character more optimally.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I mean, it's just like:

"A big patch is coming. This is especially significant in light of all the recent controversy surrounding not just Bayonetta and Cloud, but also several key characters at the lower end of the roster."

"Totally. Hey, you know who we should talk about that isn't related to any of that? Mewtwo."

"MOTHER****** I WILL FIGHT YOU ABOUT MEWTWO."

Tune in next time, when the thread loses their minds about R.O.B. and Wii Fit Trainer.

I think it's because people are afraid that with Bayo and probably Cloud and Rosalina's impending mushroom stamping, Mewtwo could quickly polevault to the top but I don't think he's the unstoppable killing machine that people are imagining him to be. Based on results, if people aren't afraid of Mario at this point, there's no reason to be afraid of Mewtwo.

 

[Das Koopa]

It was close because Abadango kept SD'ing. Dabuz won 2 games and in both those games Aba SD'ed. It would've been a clean 3-0 otherwise. What did I say about people not putting results and numbers into context?

Game 5 was very close. Go back and watch the VODs; it very easily could've gone either way. Both were +70 and last stock, and there's no telling how the game would've gone if Dabuz didn't get caught midair by Shuttle Loop and had returned to neutral.

That's kind of my point, too - that's when Dabuz began to adapt and make a highly disadvantageous matchup look far more close than it's supposed to be against one of the stronger Meta Knights.

The fact that Aba won even though he was playing sloppily says a lot about the MU, and I'm confident he still would've won if he went M2, considering he plays that character more optimally.

I'm really not. If the matchup is roughly even, then Dabuz likely would've had it figured out. He lost games 2 and 3 very quickly due to the KO ladder, giving him very little time to adapt or adjust. I think long or drawn out games would've likely gone in Dabuz's favor because there's no risk of a sudden KO ladder killing Rosa and forcing Dabuz's hand.

Has Abadango even faced a high-level Rosalina that's remotely comparable to Dabuz with post-buff Mewtwo? He may have faced Kirihara or one of the American RosaLumas at some point (Falln or Rayquaza) but none of those players are even close to Dabuz's level.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Kirihara has even attended a tournament since the last patch.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

Patch may not even be coming today so lets chill.

Interested to see what people think about - she's got a lot of different reactions from different posters, ranging from people thinking she's secretly busted to people thinking she's heavily mediocre. I'm leaning more towards busted but that is likely heavily influenced by my character, so maybe other opinions could be helpful

Your post seemed to have gotten lost in all the M2 clutter so I'll respond. Corrin's definitely an interesting character. I think she/he's fine as is right now and she's a bit underwhelming. She's getting decent results so we'll see where she goes

Tfw ppl are bickering over a high tier and Im just here like, well people have complained about Electro shock before.

Being a Pit/Dark Pit player is weird cause no one ever talks about you, and youre one of the only chars in the game no one complains about lmfao

Same when you're a WFT player lmao

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regarding Palutena, if she's getting good results in spite of her theory bring bad, that suggests to me that her theory is wrong.

Does her bair protect her from the front?

 

[C0rvus]

That's because the Pits and Wii Fit are underwhelming as hell. All there is to it, really. Wouldn't mind Wii Fit getting some more buffs. From playing her, I only got the sense that she is outclassed by similar characters and her reward is piddly as hell. I dunno how they could improve that, though.

 

[Yikarur]

During Patch Time it does very little sense to discuss the current meta game, because everything could be different by then.
That's why people discuss about.. everything becaude they like discussing ideas and thoughts about things related to the game when meta game discussing is not worth it.

 

[L9999]

Could they drop the patch already? This drama is getting boring....

 

[wedl!!]

The main thing is that discussing longevity at this point is kind of... useless, really.

We have literally no idea if Smash 5 will be good or if there even will be a Smash 5.

I get less on-topic stuff but that's really stretching it.

 

[Trifroze]

I get that roll canceled grabs are an ancient discovery but is anyone actually using them? Just remembered their existence and tried it on ZSS, and it extended her dash grab by around 1-1.5 standing Marios, which ends up making the overall grab distance almost half of FD at the tip of the tether. Can't check how many more frames it adds to the dash grab due to not having the software at the moment, but if it's 3 or less it's probably faster than running for extra 3 frames and doing a normal dash grab. Would imagine it's even more beneficial for those with slow run speeds, yet no one uses them. Or have I just missed the spark effect every time they do?

 

[Dinoman96]

The main thing is that discussing longevity at this point is kind of... useless, really.

We have literally no idea if Smash 5 will be good or if there even will be a Smash 5.

I get less on-topic stuff but that's really stretching it.

There will be one, let's not get carried away here.

Anyways....how'd you all react if the Bidou Tech got patched out? lol

 

[wedl!!]

Bidou won't realistically ever be patched out (not that there'd be a reason to anyways) but in such a situation:

I'd feel bad for the people who've dedicated plenty of time labbing the techs for their characters. Especially Mac mains, they don't deserve more pain.

But I can live without fifteen million threads about how x character is affected by the control scheme.

 

[ARISTOS]

Patch time means that everyone can get out what's on their chest because after the patch it may no longer exist lol.

Palutena has very good mobility specs compared to most characters in the game, and that often gets overlooked when discussing her. ~Mobility is god, and all of that~

 

[Mario766]

I get that roll canceled grabs are an ancient discovery but is anyone actually using them? Just remembered their existence and tried it on ZSS, and it extended her dash grab by around 1-1.5 standing Marios, which ends up making the overall grab distance almost half of FD at the tip of the tether. Can't check how many more frames it adds to the dash grab due to not having the software at the moment, but if it's 3 or less it's probably faster than running for extra 3 frames and doing a normal dash grab. Would imagine it's even more beneficial for those with slow run speeds, yet no one uses them. Or have I just missed the spark effect every time they do?

RCG can only be done out of a stand-still, otherwise you do a boost grab. That's the only issue, most of the time it's easier to do a boost grab. It's very situational.

For characters with bad standing grabs, RCG is a good option to punish things just slightly out of standing grab range.

 

[FlynnCL]

To add onto a discussion that's a few pages back; if 1.1.6 is purely for balance, ~60MB's isn't small at all if the only file changes are fighter script files and parameters.

If I were to gather every single script folder for every fighter in the game and the main parameter file, it's around 31-34MB's uncompressed. The files still need to be packed ready for the update to load, which reduces file size considerably (Shulk's script data will go from ~500KB's to a 140KB "packed" file).

 

[bc1910]

To add onto a discussion that's a few pages back; if 1.1.6 is purely for balance, ~60MB's isn't small at all if the only file changes are fighter script files and parameters.

If I were to gather every single script folder for every fighter in the game and the main parameter file, it's around 31-34MB's uncompressed. The files still need to be packed ready for the update to load, which reduces file size considerably (Shulk's script data will go from ~500KB's to a 140KB "packed" file).

But what about the previous patch (which was purely for balance iirc) being around 5x the size?

 

[Strong-Arm]

I think due to current results that some of our theories are incorrect. Mostly for certain character such as Palutena and Greninja. We treat Palutena as if she is a terrible character but her results speak otherwise, and Greninja speaks otherwise as well. Greninja isnt bad, but we may be overrating him a bit. He hasnt done as well as he should by what we've said.

 

[FlynnCL]

But what about the previous patch (which was purely for balance iirc) being around 5x the size?

Wasn't it around 160MB's? Not entirely sure... 1.1.5 may have also contained an updated Umbra Clock Tower as Pikachu is now unable to Quick Attack cancel on the slope.

 

[Jams.]

Third, up air is really good. Like wow.

I wouldn't say it's amazing, it's just a good uair that serves its purpose. Its got a gigantic hitbox, monstrous active frames, and it's very strong; however, the FAF (52) and autocancel (64) are both awful (last hitbox comes out frame 26 for reference) and the landing lag is pretty high (24 frames). The move is also impeded by Palutena's terrible air speed, so she can't easily chase people with it. It's really good at stuffing out aggressive landings and can catch people sometimes, but if you miss it usually lets the opponent reset to neutral for free. I think the dthrow->uair confirm is a bigger factor in how powerful this move feels compared to uair itself.

Palutena also does fairly well against ROB, as demonstrated from Iceninja vs Holy and Prince Ramen vs 8BitMan. Might be a losing MU TBH; reflectors kind of stifle his usual game plan, he's not mobile enough to avoid playing footsies, and her dthrow combos are very reliable on him.

Regarding Palutena, if she's getting good results in spite of her theory bring bad, that suggests to me that her theory is wrong.

Does her bair protect her from the front?

Bair protects her entire upper body (green bubbles cancel out hitboxes).

Maybe you should ask some of your Palutena questions to Iceninja at GOML, I'm sure he'd be willing to answer them. However just thinking of Iceninja I shudder at having to mod a chat full of hooligans making fun of his cosplay...

Good suggestion. Modding that chat doesn't sound very fun.

 

[sedrf]

So how about character Identities
What separates idenity wise
What can namco/nintendo do to make seen as an alternative or style choice rather than inferior