Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[KuroganeHammer]

What?
Forward air kills at like 120% on the ground. And sometimes later. Most smashes kill at 110%.
And, his forward air is on its own kind, and, well, that's okay to have a stupid move. There's tons of stupid moves out there that don't really have weaknesses.

Are you REALLY suggesting that Mewtwo needs nerfs? There are more characters deserving the hammer far more than he does.

I watched it at BAM8 almost kill Mr R at 70% from the middle of Battlefield. No fam, the move is ********.

I don't mention it a lot because I don't like to look like a complainer, but Mewtwo has to deal with a lot of "unfair" stuff on the reg too ya know.

Like goddamn teleport never fricking snapping to the ledge right.

I haven't seen this problem from watching Abadango.

 

[Ninety]

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

Well yeah, there's bair, nair, dair...

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I think I was wrong about Mewtwo's fair. It's easy to look at tools in a vacuum and call them overtuned without looking at context.

A frame 6 or something fair with little endlag that kills at surprisingly early percents? Broken! Until you realize it's on a character who will die insanely early and doesn't have the best dash grab potential to condition you strongly against shielding when in pressure situations.

A backthrow that kills at ~110 with rage? Broken! Until you realize that it's for a character with relatively bad ground mobility, generally laggy smash attacks, and an absolutely braindead easy gimpable recovery.

A frame 4 combo starter that can be used out of shield, is disjointed, hard to punish, and can lead to death? Broken! Until you realize it's on a character with...an amazing recovery...decent mobility...top tier disadvantaged state...usable pokes...yeah **** that move that needs to be fixed lol

 

[L9999]

Honestly, if Nintendo nerfed Mewtwo they are basically saying to us: "No, you can't have a high tier Mewtwo"

That'd be a really confusing message, considering how they could have just stopped buffing him after patch 1.1.3

After patch 1.1.5 it's kind of obvious that they want M2 to be a really good character.

People are bipolar.

Mewtwo didn't need nerfs last patch, what he also didn't need was more random over the top "lets make him faster than sheik" buffs.

Revert please.

Daily reminder that Mewtwo's frame 6, unpunishable fair that kills earlier than various smash attacks can be combo'd into.

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

Mewtwo is a glass cannon, he is suppose to do crazy crap like this, as he dies early. The reason Game and Watch and Jigglypuff are sucky disappointing glass cannons is because they don't have enough ridiculous power to make up for their lightness. And Mewtwo was disappointing on release because his mobility was eh for his gigantic size.

Jesus christ can we stop whiing.
I rather go back to pikachu discussion

Oh please no, I'd rather cut my hand, pour lemonade in it and let a Komodo dragon lick the wound than going through 100+ pages of Up Throw Thunder debate.

I watched it at BAM8 almost kill Mr R at 70% from the middle of Battlefield. No fam, the move is ********.

Nothing out of the norm, Sheik is made out of paper mache.

 

[Nobie]

I think I was wrong about Mewtwo's fair. It's easy to look at tools in a vacuum and call them overtuned without looking at context.

A frame 6 or something fair with little endlag that kills at surprisingly early percents? Broken! Until you realize it's on a character who will die insanely early and doesn't have the best dash grab potential to condition you strongly against shielding when in pressure situations.

A backthrow that kills at ~110 with rage? Broken! Until you realize that it's for a character with relatively bad ground mobility, generally laggy smash attacks, and an absolutely braindead easy gimpable recovery.

A frame 4 combo starter that can be used out of shield, is disjointed, hard to punish, and can lead to death? Broken! Until you realize it's on a character with...an amazing recovery...decent mobility...top tier disadvantaged state...usable pokes...yeah **** that move that needs to be fixed lol

I know you're talking about Ness, but I'd like to talk about how Mewtwo's back throw is balanced very simply.

It kills earlier than most back throws. 2nd or 3rd strongest in the game.

But the closer Mewtwo is to the ledge, the more easily he dies. That's it.

Mewtwo in general is designed to have a ton of "unfair" things who is then offset by being a giant punching bag. Like Sakurai has literally said that the reason Mewtwo is even lighter in Smash 4 than he is in Melee is because he really wanted to make sure Mewtwo conveyed that feeling of overwhelming power.

 

[Y2Kay]

minor nitpick but bair is +7 on shield and nair is only +4, not +7, it's 2016 why aren't you people using the calculator already Kappa

(I'm serious though. It's wayyyyyy more accurate)

dtilt, nair, usmash, fair

dair is the best meteor in the game too but I'm not sold on calling it oppressive... yet.

A frame 4 combo starter that can be used out of shield, is disjointed, hard to punish, and can lead to death? Broken! Until you realize it's on a character with...an amazing recovery...decent mobility...top tier disadvantaged state...usable pokes...yeah **** that move that needs to be fixed lol

I'm calling BS on Mewtwo's Nair not being fair.

You couldn't pay that move to win a trade against . . . anything. The hitboxes on that move are still really small, they just connect better after the 1.1.5 patch

If you have problems with it . . . literally just throw out any hitbox, Mewtwo will lose the trade, almost guranteed.

I haven't seen this problem from watching Abadango.

Oh trust me it's real. I'm pretty sure Abadango has been punished for not snapping right with Teleport.

Aba makes this character look a lot easier and a lot more broken than he actually is.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think a lot of people are forgetting how difficult it is to actually hit Mewtwo because of how fast he is but whatever.

I'm calling BS on Mewtwo's Nair not being fair.

You couldn't pay that move to win a trade against . . . anything. The hitboxes on that move are still really small, they just connect better after the 1.1.5 patch

If you have problems with it . . . literally just throw out any hitbox, Mewtwo will lose the trade, almost guranteed.

It's not quite as simple as "just throw out a hitbox". What if he uses fair instead? There's various factors to consider, if he's already in the air you still have to jump first and by then he might already be on top of you.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Couple of notes. Fair has a very interesting DI zone, different from the norm at least, that allows you to live a bit longer.

People don't really know how to fight Mewtwo, but on the same token, Mewtwo isn't that developed and Aba is still learning the character. Seeing Mr. R's precision and then comparing it to Aba's made me realize that Abadango is very good, but still needs to work on the character.

Nair can be beaten by almost literally any move in the game. Don't let Mewtwo's spam SH Nair. Example, Shiek Ftilt would easily beat it.

Fair is probably the best Fair in the game.

Teleport is fine.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nair - 6 frames landing lag, +7/+5 on shield
Fair - 14 frames landing lag, +3/+2/0 on shield, sourspot deals significant shield damage
Bair - 12 frames landing lag, +6 on shield, gargantuan hitbox (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChPXZWhWgAMJpmZ.jpg:large)

I'm sorry, but where is the commitment? Ryu has absurd aerials, you have to anti-air him before he gets to you. If he hits your shield, you messed up because now he has true blockstring crap and shield break setups that could lead to big damage/death.

I'm not saying he's the most broken character in the game, but he's just as dumb as the rest of the top tiers. And I'm no stranger to fighting Ryu either. Fighting against one has helped me learn how to stay patient and work on my footsies, particularly my ground game. It's not about outdamaging him with fancy combos, it's mostly just optimizing my neutral with safe pokes and good movement to reduce the amount of times he can hit me. I'll gladly safely poke at him 10 times with a 5% move instead of risking taking a heavy punish from Ryu just for some 20-30% combo.

Fair and bair do not lead to a shoryu confirm.

Reading comprehension.

Nair is only that much advantage on SHIELD DROP. Why you would drop shield when Ryu is POINT BLANK in your space after a blocked nair is beyond my ability to understand. That is also a PERFECT NAIR. When Ryu gets a Nair IMMEDIATELY before touching the ground for MAX frame advantage. If a Ryu goes for this, its a bit of a risk because he needs to reach the apex of his short hop first. Its def a good tool and I have been working on some ways to maximize its potential but due to the nature of Ryus jumps and aerial deceleration, its much more commital then other chars aerial approaches. BTW perfect nair wont confirm into a shoryu on hit at kill percent either. Generally most chars will fly too far. An early Nair will do it but thats also telegraphed alot and has far less safety if they block it high on their shield.

Stop looking at his tools in a vacuum and instead recognize they are TOOLS in a...wait for it....COHESIVE TOOLKIT

And dammit learn to frame data my man.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I'm calling BS on Mewtwo's Nair not being fair.

You couldn't pay that move to win a trade against . . . anything. The hitboxes on that move are still really small, they just connect better after the 1.1.5 patch

I think a lot of people are forgetting how difficult it is to actually hit Mewtwo because of how fast he is but whatever.


It's not quite as simple as "just throw out a hitbox". What if he uses fair instead? There's various factors to consider, if he's already in the air you still have to jump first and by then he might already be on top of you.

Guys...I was talking about bayonetta's witch twist...

 

[LancerStaff]

Honestly, if Nintendo nerfed Mewtwo they are basically saying to us: "No, you can't have a high tier Mewtwo"

That'd be a really confusing message, considering how they could have just stopped buffing him after patch 1.1.3

After patch 1.1.5 it's kind of obvious that they want M2 to be a really good character.

It's not that they wanted Mewtwo to be a good character, it's that the fanbase wanted Mewtwo to be not garbage. If the fanbase doesn't want him to be that good then there's no reason Nintendo can't listen...

Though I doubt they'll do anything besides the infinite myself.

 

[Ulevo]

Mewtwo didn't need nerfs last patch, what he also didn't need was more random over the top "lets make him faster than sheik" buffs.

Revert please.

Daily reminder that Mewtwo's frame 6, unpunishable fair that kills earlier than various smash attacks can be combo'd into.

IMO moves should probably have weaknesses, or at least from a gameplay perspective be "fair". Mewtwo has a lot of moves that simply don't fall in the "fair" category.

Moves do not exist outside the context of the character that uses them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Moves do not exist outside the context of the character that uses them.

Yes. Luckily Mewtwo is overall probably the fastest character in the game with some of the best grabs and throws too.

 

[Shaya]

It makes logical sense, it's "balanced" in our minds.
But to our balancing friends, such notions aren't valid.
ZSS has the laggiest grab in the game, is a feather weight, with no ground moves that are safe against shield. She used to have one of the best grab games in the cast - now essentially not much stronger (in my opinion) than to Sheik or Diddy. She gets sub 20% for every grab and eventually has it stop working as a follow up throw with proper DI.

To me, it's rational that such a stupendously high risk action on a kit without many other tools without extreme start up would be consistently rewarded for getting grabs.
But now she isn't.
Yet she still needs to get as many grabs, if not more to compensate. People hold shield even more because they know grab isn't the same threat it used to be.

Mewtwo having tons of things which are strictly a lot better than everyone else justified by him being a "glass cannon" isn't fair nor what we've seen in balancing towards the top rated characters.
So the question is whether or not Nintendo think Mewtwo is a top character, not if his kit's strengths are justified just because their players know how difficult things can be when things go awkwardly.

The curse of long-term balance patch cycles is that the notion of character difficulty (i.e. you'd hope more difficult to play characters are rewarded for it) is ignored; there are many more, louder people who only focus on the positives that are observed and not the negatives that undoubtedly happen significantly more often; thanks perception bias.

Either way, each time a real competitive threat gets bumped up several degrees of difficulty, the top mains still achieve results.
Essentially everyone else is incentivized to play Mario or Nessagainst people who don't edgeguard... (inb4 they nerf mario)

Anywhohi.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

A little bit off topic but I still like how many ZSS players thought her grab was BAD prepatch. Now it actually is bad (well, much worse than before anyway) so I wonder how they live with their lives.

 

[420quickscoper]

It's kind of like we're coming to think that M2 is top 10 or something. It's very possible. His results from patch 1.1.5 are the 12th best, and his theory looks amazing.
Does anyone else think this is possible?

 

[Asdioh]

idk what's going on in this thread anymore. Too much patch hype.

Couple of notes. Fair has a very interesting DI zone, different from the norm at least, that allows you to live a bit longer.

But then you DON'T ELABORATE ON THIS?

 

[TurboLink]

Sorry. I made a very bad decision. Ignore this post.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

idk what's going on in this thread anymore. Too much patch hype.
But then you DON'T ELABORATE ON THIS?

The angle is 50. Most horizontal KO moves have angles 45 and lower.

Fair is still actually ****ed though

 

[HeavyLobster]

What?! Mewtwo's ground mobility is no where near bad. His dash is slightly slower than Greninja's and his walk speed is the same as Charizard's walk speed. Where is the "relatively bad ground mobility?"

Also, where is this "absolutely braindead easy gimpable recover" you speak of? The ledge has an easier time gimping Mewtwo than most characters do.

Believe that was referring to Ness.

 

[L9999]

What?! Mewtwo's ground mobility is no where near bad. His dash is slightly slower than Greninja's and his walk speed is the same as Charizard's walk speed. Where is the "relatively bad ground mobility?"

Also, where is this "absolutely braindead easy gimpable recover" you speak of? The ledge has an easier time gimping Mewtwo than most characters do.

It is Ness.

It's kind of like we're coming to think that M2 is top 10 or something. It's very possible. His results from patch 1.1.5 are the 12th best, and his theory looks amazing.
Does anyone else think this is possible?

IMO it is a toss up between Ryu played correctly and Mewtwo.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

It's kind of like we're coming to think that M2 is top 10 or something. It's very possible. His results from patch 1.1.5 are the 12th best, and his theory looks amazing.
Does anyone else think this is possible?

I think Mewtwo is easily one of the best characters in the game. What actually balances him out is how easy it is to kill him. That alone gives every character a chance in the Mewtwo MU, even jigglypuff can get rid of him at 30 with rest

 

[SaltyKracka]

ZSS has the laggiest grab in the game, is a feather weight, with no ground moves that are safe against shield. She used to have one of the best grab games in the cast - now essentially not much stronger (in my opinion) than to Sheik or Diddy. She gets sub 20% for every grab and eventually has it stop working as a follow up throw with proper DI.

'Scuse me while I blast this pathetic pile of whine.

Oh noes, she had a tether grab with ridiculous range that confirmed into tons of damage and free kills! But if it missed, it left her open to being punished! Surely her...not even being the lightest character in the game, with incredible ground and aerial speed, a freely chargeable projectile that confirms into more damage, an obviously ungimpable recovery, and incredible combos and fantastic kill confirms means she is such a weak character! It's not like she was number 2 in the game for a year or anything!

And to think! She's only a little better now than two characters who absolutely dominated the game, received minor nerfs, and are still top tier!

Oh, the humanity! Oh, the horror!

Oh, give me a break. Come back and complain when you play a character that hasn't been Sakurai's favorite for a year.

 

[Skyfox2000]

Haha Boii

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What?! Mewtwo's ground mobility is no where near bad. His dash is slightly slower than Greninja's and his walk speed is the same as Charizard's walk speed. Where is the "relatively bad ground mobility?"

Also, where is this "absolutely braindead easy gimpable recover" you speak of? The ledge has an easier time gimping Mewtwo than most characters do.

Second paragraph is referring to ness. Third is referring to bayonetta. Since there seems to be some confusion. Pun intended.

 

[420quickscoper]

Oh, and another thing about Mewtwo's f-air: it has a pretty large disjoint. I've hit many people with it where it doesn't look like it should hit.

 

[TurboLink]

Believe that was referring to Ness.

I knew something didn't seem right. Now I feel really dumb. Sorry. *facepalm*

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Oh man, seems like the patch hype is really getting to everyone. It would be incredibly awkward if it dropped a day before a major like GOML started. Would they use the patch if it came out that date?

 

[Quantumpen]

Fair is a very good move, but I think it's KO power is being slightly exaggerated. It almost killed Mr. R (playing one of the lightest characters in the game) from mid stage at 70%, but at that time Aba had like 150% worth of rage. A long list of strong aerials could kill at those percentages.

 

[Shaya]

'Scuse me while I blast this pathetic pile of whine.

Oh noes, she had a tether grab with ridiculous range that confirmed into tons of damage and free kills! But if it missed, it left her open to being punished! Surely her...not even being the lightest character in the game, with incredible ground and aerial speed, a freely chargeable projectile that confirms into more damage, an obviously ungimpable recovery, and incredible combos and fantastic kill confirms means she is such a weak character! It's not like she was number 2 in the game for a year or anything!

And to think! She's only a little better now than two characters who absolutely dominated the game, received minor nerfs, and are still top tier!

Oh, the humanity! Oh, the horror!

Oh, give me a break. Come back and complain when you play a character that hasn't been Sakurai's favorite for a year.

I play many characters, and it seems the point of the post went over your head.
ZSS is still a top character.

"free kills", "freely chargeable" "obviously ungimpable"
sarcastic "weak character"

What the hell is wrong with you? lol.
Seems like you're whining a lot harder than I am.

 

[irokex13]

Fair and bair do not lead to a shoryu confirm.

Reading comprehension.

Nair is only that much advantage on SHIELD DROP. Why you would drop shield when Ryu is POINT BLANK in your space after a blocked nair is beyond my ability to understand. That is also a PERFECT NAIR. When Ryu gets a Nair IMMEDIATELY before touching the ground for MAX frame advantage. If a Ryu goes for this, its a bit of a risk because he needs to reach the apex of his short hop first. Its def a good tool and I have been working on some ways to maximize its potential but due to the nature of Ryus jumps and aerial deceleration, its much more commital then other chars aerial approaches. BTW perfect nair wont confirm into a shoryu on hit at kill percent either. Generally most chars will fly too far. An early Nair will do it but thats also telegraphed alot and has far less safety if they block it high on their shield.

Stop looking at his tools in a vacuum and instead recognize they are TOOLS in a...wait for it....COHESIVE TOOLKIT

And dammit learn to frame data my man.

FOR THE LAST TIME, I'm not saying that Ryu is broken or the best character in the game. I'm not saying that these tools are unbelievably broken and overpowered. BUT these are the tools of a top tier character. Ryu has the toolkit of a top tier. It's not like he's Shulk or Zelda and he's barely managing to find the means to fight. He can, and most certainly will destroy any character in the game when he plays correctly.

I never once said that those aerials confirm into Shoryuken. So what if you have to space out your approach correctly and get the right height for your aerials to be safe on shield? That what every character has to do! Sheik and ZSS will get grabbed for misspacing their aerials, but that doesn't mean their approach isn't safe. That doesn't mean that they don't take risks. I understand that Ryu is playing a slightly different game than the other top tiers, but what he does do, he does very well and it should be acknowledged.

It blows my mind to see people complain about Limit Cross Slash/Bayo Combos/Sheik/Rosa/Diddy/ZSS and then have NOTHING to say when Shoryuken kills someone at 60-70%. Shoryuken, that can be combo'd into, has generous amounts of invincibility, and low landing lag. It's almost a strict upgrade from Rest. This move is attached to a character that is decently heavy, has a very good recovery, ridiculous aerials with honestly, incorrect hitboxes, true blockstrings, shieldbreak setups, and above average mobility.

 

[Game7a1]

Apologies for straying off-topic about this conversation about Mewtwo's aerials, Ryu's frame data, ZSS' grab, and an upcoming patch, but SAX's 150th weekly has a 131 man tournament. Might be interesting to see what develops.
Anyways, carry on.

 

[Charoite]

None of that matters because is not destroying the balance of the game,he has overturned tools like all the high tier or top tiers, but he isn't breaking the game, in fact i dont think any character is breaking the game(you could make a case for bayo or cloud) like pre-patch , many of these complains doesn't make sense, are now complaining about ever single non-mid or low tier character?

 

[Y2Kay]

Yes. Luckily Mewtwo is overall probably the fastest character in the game with some of the best grabs and throws too.

Mewtwo's aerial mobility is garbage, how could he overall be the fastest character on the roster? His throws are good but his grab range is very bad. It's really small and starts of high off the ground, making it hard to grab short characters.

 

[420quickscoper]

Mewtwo's aerial mobility is garbage, how could he overall be the fastest character on the roster? His throws are good but his grab range is very bad. It's really small and starts of high off the ground, making it hard to grab short characters.

Mewtwo's aerial acceleration is garbage, but his overall aerial mobility is good and much better than many characters that don't really have much air speed.
But he's obviously not the fastest character on the roster.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fair is a very good move, but I think it's KO power is being slightly exaggerated. It almost killed Mr. R (playing one of the lightest characters in the game) from mid stage at 70%, but at that time Aba had like 150% worth of rage. A long list of strong aerials could kill at those percentages.

13% 20/100 BKB/KBG

Compare it to like Dedede dsmash which is 13%, 60/80

 

[Nobie]

'Scuse me while I blast this pathetic pile of whine.

Oh noes, she had a tether grab with ridiculous range that confirmed into tons of damage and free kills! But if it missed, it left her open to being punished! Surely her...not even being the lightest character in the game, with incredible ground and aerial speed, a freely chargeable projectile that confirms into more damage, an obviously ungimpable recovery, and incredible combos and fantastic kill confirms means she is such a weak character! It's not like she was number 2 in the game for a year or anything!

And to think! She's only a little better now than two characters who absolutely dominated the game, received minor nerfs, and are still top tier!

Oh, the humanity! Oh, the horror!

Oh, give me a break. Come back and complain when you play a character that hasn't been Sakurai's favorite for a year.

I was going to be more civil in responding to Shaya but there are some elements of this post I agree with. I don't think it's fair to say "Aww poor ZSS mains" sarcastically, but I really encourage anyone who thinks Mewtwo is super amazing to actually try the character out and experience the mental tension that comes with having Mewtwo's particular weaknesses.

ZSS misses a slow grab and the ZSS player thinks, "Aw man, I'm gonna get punished." At high percents, the ZSS might even be worried about dying.

When Mewtwo misses a grab (which of course isn't as slow), or really anything, there's a butt clench that happens to all Mewtwo players, because you know that you might just die right here. You can practically see it on-stream whenever Abadango grabs in the wrong direction, or nairs poorly, or misses an up smash.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Mewtwo's aerial mobility is garbage, how could he overall be the fastest character on the roster? His throws are good but his grab range is very bad. It's really small and starts of high off the ground, making it hard to grab short characters.

Also his grab range is definitely not bad. I watched Abadango voodoo magic Mr R over to him with his silly grab range.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Tfw ppl are bickering over a high tier and Im just here like, well people have complained about Electro shock before.

Being a Pit/Dark Pit player is weird cause no one ever talks about you, and youre one of the only chars in the game no one complains about lmfao

 

[Shaya]

But Nobie, you're essentially agreeing with me (through your thoughts on ZSS) while saying Mewtwo is difficult enough to deserve what he has, it's hypocritical.

I wouldn't even assume Mewtwo will get touched this patch, but if he does it's justified - just like every other good difficult character's nerfs have been justified.
"actually try the character out and experience the mental tension that comes with having REPLACEYOURMAINHERE's particular weaknesses."
Says nearly every player ever (Bayo legality thread is right there for anyone if you don't believe).

ZSS got hit with more than just her grab though - the combo ability of her two main aerials were hit hard as well. I was just keeping the example to her grab because I'm focusing on the whole 'mewtwo is above being nerfed' that's been on repeat since he started garnering attention.
Trivia: I used to almost feel the same way about ZSS.