Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

I still find posts like this borderline surreal given Mewtwo was borderline comically craptastic in the canon for a solid 14 years until he magically got gud thanks to Sakurai's sometimes hedonistic approach to patches.

Onto the patch announcement, if it's like the others, they'll probably focus on 6-7 characters getting noteworthy buffs and nerfs with 2-3 getting minor buffs that insult everyone's intelligence and/or rub salt in the wound when it comes to certain character's weaknesses.

My predictions:
Noteworthy buffs:
Noteworthy nerfs:
Buffs that are virtually pointless:

Don't think D3 will get buffed, Japan seems to think he's a decent mid tier. I'm doubtful about DHD though I have no real reasoning behind it and.... Jigglypuff. Just Jigglypuff. I don't get why she's untouched. Does she have weirdly good win ratios in For Glory or something?

 

[|RK|]

the most important buffs are the Kirby smash attack buffs
Seriously though, what the hell is up with them just randomly buffing Kirby's smashes every other patch? He already has a frame 13 fsmash that kills at 90%

Seriously. If they think Kirby has trouble killing, they should buff upthrow again.

And bthrow, because **** it - why not?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I do agree that there's not too much to complain about Rosalina since she actually has counters now but she does still have some jank, especially uair in general, Luma sneaking in cringeworthy early kills, and arguably how spammable gravitational pull is. Cloud and Bayo are largely in the same boat too: having only a few things about them that are genuinely stupid instead of the characters practically being busted from top to bottom like prepatch Sheik and Diddy.

 

[SaltyKracka]

ZSS could always use nerfs.

But honestly there are so many possible things to address in terms of changes it seems pointless to list them all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@Das Koopa - I think your ranking chart is missing Northwest Majors VIII? I'm pretty sure there were over 100 competitors there.

Also personally this is what I would think to be reasonable for a patch.

Nerf Bayonetta's 0 to Death combos in some way. Probably reduce UAir knockback, and increase SDI multiplier. Could nerf startup of Witch Twist. Maybe also make Witch Time not work on projectiles (mainly for Olimar's sake lol).

Buff Jigglypuff... she just needs it.

Cloud - Reduce safety of Limit Cross-Slash. Either increase the ending lag and/or get rid of the weird invincibility at the beginning.

Ryu - Reduce the knockback on True Shoryu a bit. For an attack that has reasonable confirms into it, it shouldn't kill quite as early as it does. Probably should kill closer to 100-110% than like 60-70%. It seems overtuned since that's mostly what I see Ryus kill with.

Fix some of the jank hitboxes on Rosaluma. DAir's hitbox that hits characters to the side just seems weirdly powerful (I remember ESAM's Pika flying reasonably close to the blastzone at 27% from it). Maybe make some of them just a bit weaker, nothing too drastic.

Fix hitboxes that just don't connect or clearly fail to do what they're supposed to do and buffs to low tiers are always appreciated.

I think Diddy & Sheik are fine to be honest. They're really good, but they have weaknesses now, which is good.

Bout to write a book on kill confirms and why they are a thing.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

ZSS could always use nerfs.

But honestly there are so many possible things to address in terms of changes it seems pointless to list them all.

Please...no more ZSS nerfs...she's honestly fine

 

[ZSaberLink]

Bout to write a book on kill confirms and why they are a thing.

Oh I get it. Links used to use Jab 1 as a confirm before using UTilt, etc. Then we lost our CQC game entirely. Maybe I'm missing something though? I still think True Shoryu is overused by Ryu's, albeit I mostly watched early Ryus (9B, Mr. R, False, etc.) and Trela.

 

[Nekoo]

Bout to write a book on kill confirms and why they are a thing.

Nothing wrong about the fact that the kill confirms are thing. But for Ryu his True Shoryu is stupid and braindead to do. He can combo into it easily and kill extremely early with it.

It just need some KGB nerf. Nothing wrong to have a move that can be easily used,comboed into, who have invincibility frame and a large hitbox killing at 100%-115% instead of 60-90% ( I'm mostly exagerate it but i hope you will understand what i mean)

 

[Fatmanonice]

Please...no more ZSS nerfs...she's honestly fine

This. ZSS isn't the character she used to be. She's still intimidating in the right hands but I'd say she's about as scary as the likes of Sonic and Fox now which is, given her playstyle, is really where she ought to be. I'd say the same thing about Ryu too. Ryu's already weighed down quite a bit by his learning curve so any nerfs to him would be kind of excessive and about as obtuse as nerfs to Pikachu and Villager.

 

[Yikarur]

Mewtwos fair is incredibly overtuned and does way too much. It's the best fair in the game.

 

[Charoite]

Nerf , so i can have better matchups for my main agaisnt them, buff the bottom 3 characters, dont buff any mid tiers or high tiers so they cant more be problematic to my character, and were good to go.

Nerf so people can jump in the , nerf train that will benefit my character more.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mewtwo's fair is on a similar level as Diddy's dtilt in terms of how mind-blowingly overpowered it is. I have no idea what the devs were thinking when they came up with these moves. "Let's give Diddy Kong a 4-frame dtilt that's safe on block, gets frame advantage on spotdodge, outranges most jabs and confirms into usmash and dash grab. That's totally reasonable."

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Mewtwos fair is incredibly overtuned and does way too much. It's the best fair in the game.

This. It cones out reasonably fast, stuffs approaches, and...

IT KILLS

WHY DOES MOVE KILL

Mewtwo's one of my best mains but even i think this move is overtuned. Imagine if pre patch diddy's uair was a fair. That's kind of how powerful it is.

 

[Radical Larry]

Seeing how massive the files must be, I imagine that everyone is getting a complete and utter overhaul for them. I am just going to post my predictions for various characters below:

Spoiler

-1% damage nerf on final hit on Jab.
-Limit Charge takes 2.3 more seconds to charge.


-Counter Surge deals significantly less knockback.


-Jab comes out 2 frames faster.
-F-Smash comes out 9 frames faster.
-F-Air deals 1% more damage and more KBG.
-U-Air deals 2% more damage on final hit and deals more KB.


-Fix D-Tilt.


-Mobility Buffs
-Run Speed Increased to 1.3685
-Aerial Speed Increased to 0.87
-Jab comes out 1 frame faster.
-F-Tilt comes out 2 frames faster and ends 5 frames faster. Compensation would be 2% less damage.
-D-Tilt comes out 1 frame faster and ends 8 frames faster. Compensation would be 1% less damage.
-U-Smash ends 3 frames faster.
-N-Air ends earlier so it can AC on SH.
-F-Air deals 1% more damage.
-Grab ends faster.
-D-Throw has less KBG, allowing Ganondorf to combo into it better.
-F-Throw deals 2% more damage on final hit and has heavily increased KBG to make it a kill throw.
-U-Throw allows Ganondorf to come out if the grab faster.
-Warlock Punch gains intangibility on the last 10 frames (the punch).
-Flame Choke cannot be tech'd.


-ANYTHING WILL DO SAKURAI!


-Bring back his old Jolt Haymaker Aerial.


-Mobility Buffs
-Run Speed Increased to 1.65
-Aerial Speed Increased to 1.0
-Jab comes out 2 frames faster.
-F-Tilt ends 6 frames faster and as a result, deals 1% less damage.
-D-Tilt comes out 1 frame faster and ends 3 frames faster.
-U-Tilt deals 3% more damage or ends 9 frames faster.
-F-Smash Second Hit ends 18 frames faster.
-U-Smash comes out 1 frame faster.
-D-Smash comes out 1 frame faster.
-N-Air comes out 2 frames faster.
-F-Air comes out 2 frames faster.
-B-Air comes out 1 frame faster.
-Standing, Dash and Pivot Grabs all come out 3 frames faster.

Note: If Link DOES get mobility buffs that make him significantly faster, like I predict above, Toon Link WILL become a redundant character.

Well, if ANY of my predictions come true, I'm coloring them in.
I'm not putting in Bayonetta since we know she's gonna get Luigi'd.

 

[PK Gaming]

Seeing how massive the files must be, I imagine that everyone is getting a complete and utter overhaul for them. I am just going to post my predictions for various characters below:

Spoiler

-1% damage nerf on final hit on Jab.
-Limit Charge takes 2.3 more seconds to charge.


-Counter Surge deals significantly less knockback.


-Jab comes out 2 frames faster.
-F-Smash comes out 9 frames faster.
-F-Air deals 1% more damage and more KBG.
-U-Air deals 2% more damage on final hit and deals more KB.


-Fix D-Tilt.


-Mobility Buffs
-Run Speed Increased to 1.3685
-Aerial Speed Increased to 0.87
-Jab comes out 1 frame faster.
-F-Tilt comes out 2 frames faster and ends 5 frames faster. Compensation would be 2% less damage.
-D-Tilt comes out 1 frame faster and ends 8 frames faster. Compensation would be 1% less damage.
-U-Smash ends 3 frames faster.
-N-Air ends earlier so it can AC on SH.
-F-Air deals 1% more damage.
-Grab ends faster.
-D-Throw has less KBG, allowing Ganondorf to combo into it better.
-F-Throw deals 2% more damage on final hit and has heavily increased KBG to make it a kill throw.
-U-Throw allows Ganondorf to come out if the grab faster.
-Warlock Punch gains intangibility on the last 10 frames (the punch).
-Flame Choke cannot be tech'd.


-ANYTHING WILL DO SAKURAI!


-Bring back his old Jolt Haymaker Aerial.


-Mobility Buffs
-Run Speed Increased to 1.65
-Aerial Speed Increased to 1.0
-Jab comes out 2 frames faster.
-F-Tilt ends 6 frames faster and as a result, deals 1% less damage.
-D-Tilt comes out 1 frame faster and ends 3 frames faster.
-U-Tilt deals 3% more damage or ends 9 frames faster.
-F-Smash Second Hit ends 18 frames faster.
-U-Smash comes out 1 frame faster.
-D-Smash comes out 1 frame faster.
-N-Air comes out 2 frames faster.
-F-Air comes out 2 frames faster.
-B-Air comes out 1 frame faster.
-Standing, Dash and Pivot Grabs all come out 3 frames faster.

Note: If Link DOES get mobility buffs that make him significantly faster, like I predict above, Toon Link WILL become a redundant character.

Well, if ANY of my predictions come true, I'm coloring them in.
I'm not putting in Bayonetta since we know she's gonna get Luigi'd.

This reads more like a wishlist than a prediction list

 

[juddy96]

@Das Koopa Hirosuma 3 should not be in your list since it violates your own criteria (less than 80 players)

 

[Radical Larry]

This reads more like a wishlist than a prediction list

It's both. But we can kind of tell that Corrin's Counter Surge is getting a nerf since it's still incredibly powerful. It kills the earliest out of any counters due to its own vertical angle.

 

[BlazGreen]

Isn't the file size quite small in comparison to previous patches? I wouldn't be surprised if only handful of characters get adjusted.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's both. But we can kind of tell that Corrin's Counter Surge is getting a nerf since it's still incredibly powerful. It kills the earliest out of any counters due to its own vertical angle.

They're not going to waste time on Counter Surge. If Corrin is getting nerfed, they're hitting Dragon Lunge for sure.

 

[Radical Larry]

Isn't the file size quite small in comparison to previous patches? I wouldn't be surprised if only handful of characters get adjusted.

Something's happening on the 3DS version. I mean, if it was a handful of characters, wouldn't it simply be the same file size on both games? Correct me if I'm wrong, but certainly something big is happening.

They're not going to waste time on Counter Surge. If Corrin is getting nerfed, they're hitting Dragon Lunge for sure.

Honestly, they will hit Counter Surge most likely. They'll also likely remove a lot of KB on Dragon Lunge.

 

[DblCrest]

I'm wondering what people will go on to complain about next honestly ha.

Anyway has Jiggz had any good placing in a tourney lately? Usually we've written her off as needing to be fixed or as worse character so I'm curious to know if anyone has done some good with her.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Maybe the 3DS version is getting stages from the Wii U version?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I get annoyed when people want to nerf specific characters just to make their MUs easier. Like wanting a nerf on some characters (like Bayo or prepatch sheik for instance) can be somewhat justified as it affects everyone and they can literally shut down the lower tiers. (Ofc there are valid counter arguments). But when you want nerfs for the sake of making your life easier, that's just silly. If you want a great MU spread just pick up a top tier.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Watch this just be another custom moves patch.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Some people actually think theyre adding a new character lmfao. This is just a balance patch, lets not get ahead of ourselves (heard some ppl on other boards here that they think were getting Wolf, thats not happening)

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Whats all this about filesize, is the update out or something?

 

[Strong-Arm]

No its not out yet as far as I know, but the Wii U patch is like 60 mb, and the 3DS is over 300 mb for some reason.

Probably some wii u stages added to 3DS

 

[Jams.]

Don't think D3 will get buffed, Japan seems to think he's a decent mid tier. I'm doubtful about DHD though I have no real reasoning behind it and.... Jigglypuff. Just Jigglypuff. I don't get why she's untouched. Does she have weirdly good win ratios in For Glory or something?

I'm personally a subscriber of the conspiracy theory that the balance team wants her status to be a joke character, and are purposefully avoiding buffing her to keep her the worst in the game.

 

[BunbUn129]

@Larry

The 1% damage reduction on Cloud's jab is a "what?" kind of nerf.

Forget LCS and dair; have you seen the mobs of people crying over Cloud's jab?

 

[Radical Larry]

No its not out yet as far as I know, but the Wii U patch is like 60 mb, and the 3DS is over 300 mb for some reason.

Probably some wii u stages added to 3DS

I think it'd be kind of stupid to add stages to the 3DS version of the game without announcing it. You would think that they would announce it all for stages earlier than the patch would release, right?

But then again, the over 300 Mega would be reasonable considering music, models and textures would be very huge. You have an extra 160 megabytes. So yes, it could be possible for stages, but stupid to not announce which.

BunbUn129 I was waiting for someone to catch that. That was a "what?" joke.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'm personally a subscriber of the conspiracy theory that the balance team wants her status to be a joke character, and are purposefully avoiding buffing her to keep her the worst in the game.

Honestly I kinda believe that as well. Remember that Sakurai intended Jigglypuff to be a joke character in Smash 64 but by some miracle she ended up being decent. He then said in Melee that Pichu took the role of being a joke character away from Jiggs and that's why they decided to update her.

However....Pichu is nowhere to be seen in Brawl and Smash 4 and now all of a sudden Jiggs is completely awful in both of them. Hmmmm.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nothing wrong about the fact that the kill confirms are thing. But for Ryu his True Shoryu is stupid and braindead to do. He can combo into it easily and kill extremely early with it.

It just need some KGB nerf. Nothing wrong to have a move that can be easily used,comboed into, who have invincibility frame and a large hitbox killing at 100%-115% instead of 60-90% ( I'm mostly exagerate it but i hope you will understand what i mean)

He does not get this confirm out of nowhere. His opponent either ****ed up, or Ryu gives up his positioning and attempts to go in with a mix up of sum kind.

He is not ZSS who had confirms off grabs or Diddy who can easily throw out a safe spaced dtilt. Yes Ryus utilt is safe but he has to be all up your personal space. Just closing that space, puts him at risk.
Its not the same thing.

 

[DanGR]

I wouldn't be surprised to see no Rosa nerfs, again. As the patches come, her results continue to trend downward. With the Bayo patch like half of her mains switched to Bayo or picked her up as a co-main/close secondary. Some of the important Rosa reps have been fairly inactive recently. Look at Dabuz, Kirihara, and Rayquaza's results compared to 6 months ago. They're very good players but they just haven't gone to as many tournaments as they used to, for their own reasons. (School probably) Kirihara's prescence in Japan was important. Abadango seems to use her less and less. In Japan her results aren't top tier; there's plenty of better nerf candidates if you're looking mostly at Japanese results, as it seems the dev team does. Atelier is getting results over there but is one Japan rep enough?

And I kinda word-vomitted here because I don't have time to elaborate or write better, so I apologize for that.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Watch this just be another custom moves patch.

Even Sakurai wants us to legalize them

 

[Fatmanonice]

The reason why I put Duck Hunt in an earlier post is because, aside from Jiggs, he's the only character in the game that I would still describe as "dysfunctional." Jiggs has weaknesses up the butt to the point of it being cruel while Duck Hunt is just plain wonky. His Smash attacks are a prime example. The higher of percentage an opponent is, the easier it is for them to DI or even simply fall out of them. For a character that already struggles to kill arguably more than anyone else in the cast, this is pretty dumb. No real set up throws, no set up tilts, no kill throws, and basically two dependable kill options that are both aerials (bair and uair) leave a character that specializes in wracking up damage with no real exit strategy. I feel that both of them suffer from legitimate design flaws.

You'll notice that I don't have Dedede in this list because, like Little Mac and Bowser Jr, I feel like he works... until you learn the match up, then things hit the ground faster than a bikini top after a couple of Pina Coladas during Spring Break. I'd argue that they're a different kind of dysfunctional. Their gameplans are Jenga while Puff and Doge's are playing chess with a handful of pawns.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I think it'd be kind of stupid to add stages to the 3DS version of the game without announcing it. You would think that they would announce it all for stages earlier than the patch would release, right?

Then what do you think it is if it isnt stages

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Do us 3ds plebs finally get tilt stick?

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

Honestly I kinda believe that as well. Remember that Sakurai intended Jigglypuff to be a joke character in Smash 64 but by some miracle she ended up being decent. He then said in Melee that Pichu took the role of being a joke character away from Jiggs and that's why they decided to update her.

However....Pichu is nowhere to be seen in Brawl and Smash 4 and now all of a sudden Jiggs is completely awful in both of them. Hmmmm.

Wasn't there an interview where sakurai said Jiggs was meant to be a joke character? I mean she was only really good in one game and pretty sure it was accidental.

 

[Ninety]

He does not get this confirm out of nowhere. His opponent either ****ed up, or Ryu gives up his positioning and attempts to go in with a mix up of sum kind.

He is not ZSS who had confirms off grabs or Diddy who can easily throw out a safe spaced dtilt. Yes Ryus utilt is safe but he has to be all up your personal space. Just closing that space, puts him at risk.
Its not the same thing.

None of that addresses the question though. Unless you're talking purely in a "I have to take a higher risk so I deserve an overtuned reward" sense, Ryu's confirms being less safe than Diddy's dtilt and ZSS's grab (lol) doesn't change the fact that he kills earlier than most non-super-heavies have a right to. (And Limit Cloud.)

Even Sakurai wants us to legalize them

If he wants them legal then make the method for obtaining them not mind-bendingly tedious and random.

 

[FullMoon]

If stages were to be added I sure hope they port over Prism Tower to the Wii U version, that was probably the best transforming stage.