Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

So apparently, characters with rapid pummels don't have them added to the stale move queue when they are buffered? Is this a purposeful nerf to fast pummels, or is this a mistake? I thought all this time I was refreshing the hell out of my moves with Lucario/Fox/Kirby. This makes me feel a little better about characters with meh pummels (yay megaman! Strong and slow), an often overlooked but important part of a moveset.

Yea, damaging throws would make Yoshi scarier. It seems like characters with bad throw games always have something to force grabs/beat shields. TL has projectiles, Yoshi has dair and a command grab, Marth has shield breaker... not speaking to the efficacy of these options, just a trend I noticed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It was like that in Brawl as well.

 

[Macedonian]

So I've played a few really good lucinas, not as many Marths, can Marth combo a first hit Nair into Fsmash as easy as much can? And is this not a true combo? It was confirming against me really well.

Also Marth and Lucy do have some solid combo and follow up game. Things like aerial DB1 to Nair lead to followups and do decent damage. The swordies have potential, just maybe not as much As cloud

 

[BunbUn129]

So I've played a few really good lucinas, not as many Marths, can Marth combo a first hit Nair into Fsmash as easy as much can? And is this not a true combo? It was confirming against me really well.

Also Marth and Lucy do have some solid combo and follow up game. Things like aerial DB1 to Nair lead to followups and do decent damage. The swordies have potential, just maybe not as much As cloud

Marth's nair 1 into f smash works, but AFAIK he cant land the tipper of f smash.

Also Megamang then you have Bowser who has a good command grab while also having grab tractor beams and strong grab reward. Samurai's design philosophy isn't very consistent...why can't MK have his ladder when Bayo can...

But then Bowser is a grappler so whatev

 

[Asdioh]

Why the heck are you guys talking about buffing Marth again? He's fine now, there's nothing specifically wrong with the character that needs to be remedied through buffs anymore.

Well they were just talking about how ZeRo listed him as one of the 5 characters he'd like to see buffs for in his newest video... and *checks* yeah it has 57,000 views. I didn't watch it so I don't know exactly what he said, but yeahhh, I wouldn't be surprised if the trend of "Marth needz buffz" continues with his influence.

So apparently, characters with rapid pummels don't have them added to the stale move queue when they are buffered? Is this a purposeful nerf to fast pummels, or is this a mistake? I thought all this time I was refreshing the hell out of my moves with Lucario/Fox/Kirby. This makes me feel a little better about characters with meh pummels (yay megaman! Strong and slow), an often overlooked but important part of a moveset.

Yea, damaging throws would make Yoshi scarier. It seems like characters with bad throw games always have something to force grabs/beat shields. TL has projectiles, Yoshi has dair and a command grab, Marth has shield breaker... not speaking to the efficacy of these options, just a trend I noticed.

It was like that in Brawl as well.

If I ever knew this, I forgot about it. What, so if I buffer 5 pummels, only 1 counts in the stale move queue? What if I don't buffer them? That's pretty dumb tbh.

 

[Megamang]

So, you want to input the pummels on the first available frame without buffering them?

I guess its so 2 fox grabs don't reset his bair/uair, but he still has lasers so...


Something I had thought about that would be cool is some variety in pummels. There is already some differences, but im talking about Robin being able to sap your health, yoshi's chews doing lots of damage -> you must come out as an egg, Ganon's pummels doing damage over time when you escape, etc etc. Oh well.

 

[|RK|]

Well they were just talking about how ZeRo listed him as one of the 5 characters he'd like to see buffs for in his newest video... and *checks* yeah it has 57,000 views. I didn't watch it so I don't know exactly what he said, but yeahhh, I wouldn't be surprised if the trend of "Marth needz buffz" continues with his influence.

He explicitly says that his choices weren't based on competition, but just as a Smash fan.

And yeah, that pummel stuff is saddening.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Why did Zero put Marth above Roy on his list when Roy is much ****tier?

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Lavani]

If I ever knew this, I forgot about it. What, so if I buffer 5 pummels, only 1 counts in the stale move queue? What if I don't buffer them? That's pretty dumb tbh.

If you buffer everything, you won't add anything to the queue. I've used this to add ~350% to characters for testing purposes, the pummel can stay fresh the whole way through.

I've mentioned the pummel thing in here before, the pummel needs to play out fully for it to add to the queue. Interrupting the animation fails to stale it.

Yes, but you need to wait for the pummel to actually complete before it'll add to the stale move queue. Most(all?) characters pummeling as fast as they can won't end up unstaling anything at all.

That's my understanding of it. For Rosalina you need to wait for her wand to stop glowing (on 3DS; unsure if this visual cue is on Wii U but looking at the data I assume it is) for her pummel to add to the queue, and that's set to terminate when the animation ends. Haven't looked into the specifics on any other characters.

Since I was already recording something else anyway, here, have gifs:

 

[Yikarur]

It was already like that in Brawl. Lazy Developers.

 

[LancerStaff]

Marth is really powerful. I know that isn't what he means, but I think Marth could be a little more viable if he was less powerful on his tippers, and this isn't an idea I originated (I think I read it from Vipermoon but im not sure).

Not to toot my own horn but I'm pretty sure I told him that...

To wit, Marth's fine where he's at right now. The problem is less that he's not good enough and more that he's not his old self, though it's not unrelated. Marth's old design was just OP like it was, and if you were to tone it down to something decently balanced he really wouldn't stand out. IMO he'd be pretty similar to what Pit is now if they hadn't decided to make Marth "tippers the character," and we all know how much unique playstyles matter to Sakurai.

It was already like that in Brawl. Lazy Developers.

...Isn't the only reason it didn't do that in Melee was because of another bug where multihits added every hit to the stale moves que? Was the Brawl pummel thing even possible to fix with mods?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Why did Zero put Marth above Roy on his list when Roy is much ****tier?

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Because he thinks Melee/Brawl Marth were well-designed characters.

 

[Jalil]

While we're on the topic of buffs, Rosa deserves a few. Her and Olimar are both walling type characters that use assists to fight so it's only fair for her to have 3 Lumas just like Olimar has 3 Pikmin. One above her head, one to the left and one to the right, all attacking simultaneously. I'm surprised no one has brought this up.

 

[Ninety]

Why the heck are you guys talking about buffing Marth again? He's fine now, there's nothing specifically wrong with the character that needs to be remedied through buffs anymore.

Marth's a good midtier, but no more. There's a lot of characters that aren't fundamentally broken, but could still use some general buffs to get into a higher tier. My main, for one.

Why did Zero put Marth above Roy on his list when Roy is much ****tier?

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Because it's a list on personal preference, not which characters need it most from a competitive standpoint. As he says at the beginning of the video.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Because he thinks Melee/Brawl Marth were well-designed characters.

No, he thinks they were fun to play. His list is based on his views as a fan. Competition doesn't factor into it.

I look at Marth and see a comparison to Mewtwo as inevitable. The two can kind of do the same thing, but just take a look at Mewtwo's advantages over Marth:

• Way, way, way better options out of dash. What does Marth do? Dolphin Slash? Mewtwo's insane dash attack and strong up-smash are leagues better than that.

Dancing Blade, Jumping and doing an aerial is an option. You could just not run a lot to begin with. Foxtrotting and Dash Dancing are options as well as walking.

• Better anti-zoning game, with the best projectile in the game (or among the best), on top of a reflector

Not much to say against that. Different characters, different tools. Don't really think Marth needs a projectile even if he had the option for one.

• An easier time killing. Marth, to his credit, can kill very early with the appropriate tipper read, but a kill throw at a reasonable % is way more consistent, and f-air not having to be tippered to be destructive is great. Plus Shadow Ball.
• Better grab reward. Marth has a better pummel but Mewtwo's f-throw is bonkers. Also worth repeating because kill throws are that important: kill throws!

I usually mix up with grab releases and throws. You can get tilts afterwards and if they shield too much you can go for Shield Breaker. Throws could use some more damage, as of right now they only do 4-5% I don't feel like 6-7% throws with adjusted knockback to make them the same (except uthrow make that thing stronger) would be anything crazy.

• Better overall mobility. Marth has better air accel and traction, but Mewtwo has better run speed, initial dash, and walk accel, on top of his super incredible airdodge, which lets him move in ways Marth couldn't dream of, both in neutral and disadvantage.

Again, different characters, different tools. Don't really think Marth needs Mewtwo's run speed considering his gameplan.


On Marth's side, he's heavier, and his arcing hitboxes (very important for a swordsman character) are better on the likes of f-tilt and f-air, but it's hard to argue that Marth wouldn't love Mewtwo's f-air and d-tilt in exchange.
Personally, I prefer Marth's fair hit box.
Thinking of it that way, Marth buffs don't sound so ludicrous to me. Right now, his "sell" is early kills via tipper while sporting a solid neutral game, but Mewtwo kills more consistently, is more flexible and arguably better in neutral, and gets more rewarding conversions.
Mewtwo also dies quite a bit earlier than Marth. You can slightly screw up in neutral and be okay with Marth. If you make mistakes in neutral with Mewtwo, you're gonna have a bad time.
This does not make Marth unplayable, of course. In fact, I think that he's a decent character. But just as Lucina sort of lives in Marth's perpetual shadow, I think Marth also lives in Mewtwo's shadow in the current patch cycle.
They're two characters with different play styles. I don't see how one could over shadow the other. As of right now, and possibly for the rest of the game, Mewtwo is better, but it's not because he's just Marth but better, he's just a better character.

Thoughts written in red inside quote.

 

[NairWizard]

They're two characters with different play styles. I don't see how one could over shadow the other. As of right now, and possibly for the rest of the game, Mewtwo is better, but it's not because he's just Marth but better, he's just a better character.

They have the same playstyle though, focusing on reactive spacing of disjoints, whiff punishing, and edgeguarding. Both characters are bad when the opponent gets in and have long arcing animations, which means that whiffing at suboptimal spacing is bad, so the ideal playstyle for both tends toward a philosophy of "delay button pressing as long as possible, hit from max range."

Swordsman characters tend to more or less prefer this playstyle. Most of them have some distinguishing characteristics, though. Cloud's got Limit and his bad recovery, Ike is read- and mixup heavy, Pit has a burst/midrange-focused neutral based on dash attack and dash grab, etc. Marth is pretty much the most "fundamental" swordsman. He doesn't have anything particularly unique about him (tipper isn't a mechanic so much as a reward for executing his gameplan properly). Mewtwo has a very similar gameplan in practice.

They execute this gameplan about equally well in neutral, but Mewtwo gets better reward relative to the risk, even factoring in that he's lighter. Plus M2 can do a little bit more given the flexibility of his kit, playing a more Fox-like punish and pressure game due to his options out of dash.

 

[Radical Larry]

Talking about ZeRo's list, Link was on there and it'd be very surprising to see if Nintendo gives Link a buff that makes him a top tier. The only buff type I can think of that would make him a top tier would be speed (attack speed and mobility). Give him more speed overall, he jumps categories, not just tiers.

 

[Yikarur]

Marth is fine the way he is. He is a potential high tier, he just doesn't have the playing style you are used to have from older games. Deal with it.
He has some really good moves. Tipper fair kills ridiculously early if you hit with it off-stage, ftilt's frame data, range and power is one of the best, fsmash reads have the one of the highest rewards in the game and shield breaker is always a threat.
His recovery is pretty good if you know how to DI and don't waste your DJ because dolphin slash is hardly interceptable.
I think Marth is a really good character overall. I think we are at a point where he doesn't need any buffs to compete.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Honestly if I wanted to buff Link in a meaningful way I would give dair the same autocancel frames as Cloud's dair, increase his airspeed so its not absolute ****, maybe around .95 or something, and increase his run speed to around 1.45 or 1.5. Other than that the character is fine, aside from upair and dair his landing lag is almost non existent, his combo game is decent, he can edgeguard pretty damn well, and his survivability is great. His only issue is lack of mobility, something that applies to a lot of characters *cough*falco*cough*

 

[Megamang]

His bad CQC is also a pretty big problem. Characters with safeish yomi-inducing aerials get a sigh of relief vs link, since the aerials go from safeish to totally safe. Roy is hilarious vs link, nair gets you in and he can't do much about you jabbing and dtilting his shield unless he wants to take a big risk.

 

[BunbUn129]

Tbf though you could just look at almost any low tier and say "plz Sakurai, faster dash speed!" Smash is about movement, after all, and mobility is what separates your typical top tier from your unviable low tier the most. Mobility buffs should only be given to characters who need them, not the ones who want them. M2 needed them to fit his glass cannon archetype; Ganon doesn't need them because it isn't true to his play style. And I don't think Link needs mobility buffs considering it doesn't really go in line with his zoning archetype. And it's not like Sakurai reads this thread anyway (even though I'm taking part in the buff wish discussion).


But anyway, since we're talking about buffs, I think Mewtwo desperately needs one:

Run speed: 2.05 -> 9999

 

[ZSaberLink]

Tbf though you could just look at almost any low tier and say "plz Sakurai, faster dash speed!" Smash is about movement, after all, and mobility is what separates your typical top tier from your unviable low tier the most. Mobility buffs should only be given to characters who need them, not the ones who want them. M2 needed them to fit his glass cannon archetype; Ganon doesn't need them because it isn't true to his play style. And I don't think Link needs mobility buffs considering it doesn't really go in line with his zoning archetype. And it's not like Sakurai reads this thread anyway (even though I'm taking part in the buff wish discussion).


But anyway, since we're talking about buffs, I think Mewtwo desperately needs one:

Run speed: 2.05 -> 9999

Link had pretty fast air speed in Melee, so that was a thing at some point. I think Link's main problem is definitely CQC. Not having any attack faster than frame 6 (backair), and having a frame 7 jumpsquat really hampers him. Just make his Nair frame 5 and his jab a bit faster (probably 5 - now that Jab 1 isn't a confirm anymore) and I'm sure most folks would be happy. Just let him beat a grab with an attack at close range every once in a while and have some possible escape from being complete combo food. Reducing his jumpsquat by a frame or 2 would be nice too (it's just weird when he's in the same category as Ganondorf when it comes to jab speed & jumpsquat speed). Toon Link manages to get away with similar to worse starting frame data (imo) because he's much more mobile.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Tbf though you could just look at almost any low tier and say "plz Sakurai, faster dash speed!" Smash is about movement, after all, and mobility is what separates your typical top tier from your unviable low tier the most. Mobility buffs should only be given to characters who need them, not the ones who want them. M2 needed them to fit his glass cannon archetype; Ganon doesn't need them because it isn't true to his play style. And I don't think Link needs mobility buffs considering it doesn't really go in line with his zoning archetype. And it's not like Sakurai reads this thread anyway (even though I'm taking part in the buff wish discussion).


But anyway, since we're talking about buffs, I think Mewtwo desperately needs one:

Run speed: 2.05 -> 9999

Ganon realistically probably does need slight mobility buffs to be functional in certain MUs. Bayonetta and Sonic being the main ones when it comes to simply being able to run away from him. Not necessarily large buffs mind you, but enough to make his poor mobility specs a bit less of a hindrance. He obviously still ought to be relatively slow, but there's a certain threshold below which certain chars just can't be punished reasonably(and this would likely still be true even if Bayo were nerfed).

 

[Ultrawing]

EDIT: Whoops my Bad wrong Thread

 

[Pancracio17]

ganon, imo needs a faster wiz kick (kinda like corrins DL kick, except as a wiz kick), bigger range for example, make his u air have range like falcons and hit grounded opponents and a better grab game for him to get great reward. him having a bigger effective range and a committal but relatively fast (compared to his dash speed anyway) way to get around the stage would help without changing his style.

 

[Ninety]

I'd hold off on full-character overhauls. If the devs have proven one thing, is how much a seemingly small change can affect the viability of a character. An angle and SDI multiplier change to Meta Knight's up air brought him down quite a few spots in most people's eyes, and while most everyone was clamoring for more speed or power on Robin before 1.1.0, the dthrow change made him a hell of a lot better. Same for Bowser and Donkey Kong.

While it's getting cliche at this point, I would give Ganon some real reward off of grabs (and a bigger range, for that matter). If not kill confirms, then a kill throw or at least some good damage racking. Super heavyweights really can't get away with a bad grab game.

Or, hell, hear me out. Aerial Flame Choke now has untechable groundbounce starting at ~70%. True combos into usmash and later uair at kill percents. Eh?

 

[Das Koopa]

Why the heck are you guys talking about buffing Marth again? He's fine now, there's nothing specifically wrong with the character that needs to be remedied through buffs anymore.

i don't really agree with this

If Sheik gets to exist then there's nothing wrong with buffing mid-tiers imo

 

[NinjaLink]

Mega Man is not carried only by Scatt, if even.
Japan has plenty of strong Mega Man players, with Kamemushi and Daiki as the most succesful. Nga is great too

Mega Man in USA has also had decent results at regionals and at majors with certain players. Before Scatt times, NinjaLink was very succesful with him (13th at APEX I think) until he dropped mega and disappeared from the spotlight.

There's actually more results going on for Mega Man than for Greninja tbh, but he's also a more popular pick.

Never dropped anyone. Am I not allowed to use more than one character or something? I hear everyone saying i main 'insert character'. I main no one. I use who I want lol

 

[Megamang]

... Shiek didn't get to exist, in her BS form, forever.

 

[Greward]

Never dropped anyone. Am I not allowed to use more than one character or something? I hear everyone saying i main 'insert character'. I main no one. I use who I want lol

Well not playing mostly Mega Man in tournaments is kinda dropping him. Of course you are allowed to play whatever you want. You don't have to main a character, that's obv fine. But if you don't main him now and used to solo/mostly Mega Man in tournaments some time ago, then you "dropped" the character.

I assumed as dropping that you don't main him, not that you don't ever play him. Zero dropped Fox for example, but I'm sure he does play him from time to time.

 

[LancerStaff]

i don't really agree with this

If Sheik gets to exist then there's nothing wrong with buffing mid-tiers imo

I really don't want then trying to buff up the sea of mid tiers instead of nerfing the top ten or so... If you're only going to buff one or two until they're oppressive it's going to be less balanced if you took down one or two characters.

 

[TurboLink]

Why does buffing mid tiers have to mean making them top tier? Why can't they just be high tier?

 

[Eugene Wang]

Adding some more active frames to Din's fire (like maybe up to 18 active frames) wouldn't suddenly turn Zelda into a For Glory monster, but would help her viability by making it an actual tool to snipe from afar and stuff approaches (currently, it's possible to dodge on reaction). We're not asking for a lot, Nintendo and Namco!

 

[juddy96]

This weekend

All confirmed 100+ entrants

2GGT: Fresh Saga - SoCal's finest + Pink Fresh, FOW, Ryo, Trela, SS, Vegas, NorCal
New Fish - Ally, Larry Lurr, Marss, MVD, Pugwest, Mr. E, Ling Ling, Dill
Albion - UK's finest + cyve, S1-14, Long0uw, Yikarur, Meru, Badr
Rebirth VII - Michigan's finest + Vinnie, DKwill, MJG

Possible 100+

SNL #4 Fantasy Basel - Switzerland's finest
Metro Smash Masters II - Georgia's finest
Chick-Fil-A Play Mor Smash Bros MAY-hem - South Florida's finest
Arch Rivals - Midwest Circuit event

 

[Y2Kay]

I remember Nobie bringing up why Mewtwo's sweet spots and sour spots are not a big deal when Roy's are. There are several reasons why this isn't a big deal for Mewtwo as it is for Roy.

Firstly, Mewtwo does not rely on his "sword" for killing. His down tilt is strictly a spacing move. He'll never need to land a sweet spot down tilt to secure a kill like Roy will need too. Secondly, his disjoint is better than Roy's. Also, Mewtwo's sour spots knock his opponents away while his sweet spots pop the enemy up. If he get's more of a sour spot, he'll just combo into fair, and if he gets the sweet spot, he'll combo into Nair or Up Air, his reward for landing down tilt is still pretty good, regardless of which part of his tail connects.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why does buffing mid tiers have to mean making them top tier? Why can't they just be high tier?

It's not that... It's just making the gap bigger without solving the overall problem unless Marth becomes a Cloud counter or something.

 

[PK Gaming]

i don't really agree with this

If Sheik gets to exist then there's nothing wrong with buffing mid-tiers imo

Sheik was an incredibly problematic character though.

The ideal solution isn't to create more top tiers, it's to bring everyone around the same level. Honestly, Marth is really solid right now; his mains need to take him to the next level (and not Sakurai via buffs)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheik was an incredibly problematic character though.

The ideal solution isn't to create more top tiers, it's to bring everyone around the same level. Honestly, Marth is really solid right now; his mains need to take him to the next level (and not Sakurai via buffs)

The bolded phrases could mean the same thing. If I'm bringing everyone into top tier land, that's a even platform.

Question: based on footage, what do you guys think top players need to iron out more? Their punish game? Neutral? Proper option selecting (not the SF strat, like actually selecting the correct option for advantageous situations ie edge guarding)? I think punish games personally. Too many stray hits, not enough conversion.

 

[NinjaLink]

Well not playing mostly Mega Man in tournaments is kinda dropping him. Of course you are allowed to play whatever you want. You don't have to main a character, that's obv fine. But if you don't main him now and used to solo/mostly Mega Man in tournaments some time ago, then you "dropped" the character.

I assumed as dropping that you don't main him, not that you don't ever play him. Zero dropped Fox for example, but I'm sure he does play him from time to time.

But I used mega in all the latest tournaments I entered....and thats not the definition of dropping him lol. I never mained him to begin with.

 

[meleebrawler]

The bolded phrases could mean the same thing. If I'm bringing everyone into top tier land, that's a even platform.

Question: based on footage, what do you guys think top players need to iron out more? Their punish game? Neutral? Proper option selecting (not the SF strat, like actually selecting the correct option for advantageous situations ie edge guarding)? I think punish games personally. Too many stray hits, not enough conversion.

Conversion is more complicated in Smash than in every other fighter, not only due to varying launch heights via damage and weight but also that it gives victims almost everything short of a burst mechanic to break combos. The mere ability for a victim to act beyond maybe adjusting landing position slightly after being hit in or into the air is unheard of in other fighters.

By it's very design of ring out KOs, Smash is a game where you (for the most part) can't always rely on big combos for damage and finishers, which is why neutral is valued much more heavily.