Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yikarur]

Out of curiosity, which region do you think is stronger? Germany/Austria or Australia?

As I see it its likely US/Canada > Japan > Mexico maybe? > (Germany/Austria and Australia) > Rest of EU > South America > Middle East is probably here?

Not to say there can't be amazing individuals in lower regions, just looking at those regions as a whole

I have no idea how strong Australia is and we don't know how strong Mexico is overall.
Would you put US and Canada together? I'm pretty sure germany is stronger than a lot of US states but if you put the USA together they are of course much stronger and much more players overall. The total number of players in the USA are probably thrice or four times as much or even more than europe.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I did put US and Canada together, simply because with any larger tournament close to either side of the border you get a lot of overlap. And 90% of Canada's population is close to the border, lol. So Ontario Quebec play with Tristate and the like quite a fair bit for example. To me it would be like say, when Texas holds a larger tournament and all of the major cities head over. I was putting Germany and Austria together for the same general reason based on what you said.

~ Gheb ~ ngtl, the reason I didn't try to break it down by States/State Regions is because I'm not as familiar with them at that level as I would like. Interesting to see how they're broken down. I remember Texas being one of the stronger regions back in Brawl, seems to have dropped off a bit in SSB4.

 

[juddy96]

Everything except germany is pretty weak in europe. Netherlands has S1-14, istudy and Mr-R (who is always in america lol) and the next best player is about 2 tiers lower then them. Spain wants to ban Bayonetta so that speaks for themselves but Greward got to GF at a UK national with great international presence and Rydle gets first there atm most of the time with Bayonetta afaik. But I don't know how strong their next player is.
I don't know how strong UK is at average but they don't seem too impressive.

Germany has the strongest average players in europe. Jbandrew just moved here and got third and fourth at a german tournament where not even half of german good ppayers have been present.
I think you should not talk bad about europe as long as germany (+austria) and Mr.R exists.

I think you've done a disservice to France by not mentioning them. They held cyve to 5th and quiK to 9th when they went to ROF Winter. They are the #3 country in Europe imo.

 

[Yikarur]

I think you've done a disservice to France by not mentioning them. They held cyve to 5th and quiK to 9th when they went to ROF Winter. They are the #3 country in Europe imo.

oh I was going to say they are the second best. The text got rather long so I accidently dropped it. I think France is the second best country overall with potential of being the best but their best players don't really travel and the players who travel are not strong enough to compensate their best players missing.

 

[bc1910]

UK is pretty free.

Jmiller is the UK's only world class player IMO, held back by an average character. Ixis is good, but when push comes to shove, Sonic is doing a lot of the work for him. The fact he couldn't make top 8 at Beast kind of solidified this for me.

Germany is a genuinely strong region and the Netherlands have two, maybe three world-class players.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I've never really supported Europe in any way, despite being French.
We're just like, high level players at best, nothing more, nothing less.
I feel a good amount of regions are arguably stronger than us: Japan & Socal are obvious, but there's also Mexico, where i feel there is a lot more potent threats than in Europe: They have the best TL, MK, G&W, a really good sonic, a contender for the best Bowser, a contender for the best lucario, and tons of other strong players, the list goes on.

It's getting a bit annoying & cringy to see people constantly defending & masturbating over the wins of their local threats, when in reality, none of them except Mr.R would be able to realistically reach Top 8 in a worlwide meaningful major, i know it's kind of important to support your country in terms of competitive, but you don't need to be so delusional about it.
None of our player will be able to reach the top of the top, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't care about us. MVD 2nd placing at Beast while struggling to get Top 32/Top 16 at most majors nowadays kind of proves it, it can be done in the other way, with Isaw's 9th placing at Beast while drowning at Genesis 3.

We've already developped some slight differences compared to the other regions, some characters are more developped than others, biggest case of this is ROB, where a lot of countries in Europe have at least one semi revelant ROB player who's often doing decently well in all regionals. Europe may be able to provide you with some unique matchups that you may want to study for the sake of interest or becoming better yourself. It's not that we're irrevelant, it's just that we won't have one of our players reaching Top 8 of the likes of EVO anytime soon, at least from my experience.

 

[Solfiner]

I feel like the incentive for trying to compete at higher levels is very low for many Europeans. Spending a ton of money on plane tickets just to travel to America several times a year for an Esport where you can't make much money to begin with is pretty ridiculous to most, especially since most of the people in the community are young and haven't fully figured out where they want to go in life etc. Not to mention the state of our economy which makes things even worse.

All that being said though, I feel like Europe is definitely improving as a region and I love the variety of players here.

 

[Megamang]

I honestly think MVD will become a bigger threat if he continues pushing with Diddy, but this thread is not short on Diddy optimism so I'll spare the long post and just say he is - and always has been and probably always will be - in a fantastic position in this meta. Besides pre-patch shiek retreating and throwing needles at you, a banana is probably the most scary/oppressive thing for its crazy safety. The only thing Diddy fears is people getting really good with their banana punishes.

---

I know this might barely be relevant to the thread, but it fits the current topic... But as a community, money flowing into the game from somewhere is a good way to support the meta/growth, since it does allow the upper echelon to follow the game more intensely. Majors do draw in a lot of pretty expensive admissions, and attendance is great right now, and majors are more frequent than ever. These are good things for longevity and continued pushing the meta, and the relative balance we have is also really great for that. Im happy with where smash is right now.

 

[Greward]

Everything except germany is pretty weak in europe. Netherlands has S1-14, istudy and Mr-R (who is always in america lol) and the next best player is about 2 tiers lower then them. Spain wants to ban Bayonetta so that speaks for themselves but Greward got to GF at a UK national with great international presence and Rydle gets first there atm most of the time with Bayonetta afaik. But I don't know how strong their next player is.
I don't know how strong UK is at average but they don't seem too impressive.

Germany has the strongest average players in europe. Jbandrew just moved here and got third and fourth at a german tournament where not even half of german good ppayers have been present.
I think you should not talk bad about europe as long as germany (+austria) and Mr.R exists.

Hey it's not like we banned her officially or everyone agrees on the ban. I voted against the ban myself in the backroom votation (although I still think this game is better without her), I'm not sure what our staff is doing but they should have given an official statement weeks ago. Maybe they're never going to give an official statement.
Not sure how Rydle would perform outside of Spain tbh, depends on if they have bayonetta experience (which they should have at this point). Marcbri is #2 imo in Spain, since he dropped Pit he has become way more consistent.

IMO Europe is: Germany > France > Netherlands (Mr R tho) > Spain > UK > others, although I've been out of the european scene for quite a while now. I'll probably travel this summer.

I feel like the incentive for trying to compete at higher levels is very low for many Europeans. Spending a ton of money on plane tickets just to travel to America several times a year for an Esport where you can't make much money to begin with is pretty ridiculous to most, especially since most of the people in the community are young and haven't fully figured out where they want to go in life etc. Not to mention the state of our economy which makes things even worse.

All that being said though, I feel like Europe is definitely improving as a region and I love the variety of players here.

Pretty much this.
Going full time with Smash is very hard even in America, in Europe it's even harder since flights are super expensive (and at least in Spain we're poor as ****), and you are on a real handicap since your practice opponents aren't as good. Besides there's only a few good top players in each country, and we don't even play each other so it's hard to improve.
There's examples of european smashers succeeding like Armada (mad respect to him), but it's a very big handicap being an European. Once our "e-sports" situation improves we'll probably make the jump we should, but as of now most of us can only keep it as a hobby.

 

[New_Dumal]

Zelda isn't even close to being a bottom tier character (if she ever was) since the buffs.

A character who have completely no tools to safe approach most of the roster is bottom tier.
I like Zelda. I play with her constantly, she is cool.
But you know how to cancel all her weakness and are not telling us ? Zelda is completely at the bottom of this game.
When you don't have a way to approach safely in most MU's (because your neutral game is almost null), don't have a reasonable projectile, don't have a very low % kill move (UpB is not that awesome, since people can DI out of the first hit and you're dead if you try it and miss)...
Why are you saying Zelda is not bottom tier ? It's possible to win with her when the opponent do a lot of mistakes or underate her options. That's everything.
(I'm really curious. I see a lot of people defending characters here without solid arguments. Just because "... they are not that bad".)

 

[dakotaisgreat]

The only reason Swordfighter is bottom tier is because of an extreme lack of results from the Mii rulings, which in turn have made it very hard for people to seriously pick up Miis as mains or even secondaries. Of course, I'm not saying that Swordfighter is a secret S tier or anything, just that it's pretty dismissive to call Swordfighter a bottom tier because of something that isn't related to the character's attributes and instead based solely on rulesets.

I know this isn't the thread for it, but to be clear, I agree with you when it comes to Brawler (Obviously) and Gunner /somewhat/. If it were up to me I would legalize all the miis customs and sizes. I'm not trying to start an argument about that here, that's just my own opinion.

The main point of me replying to you though, which is more relevant here, is that even with full customs control I think Swordfighter would still be a bottom tier character. The character is pretty ****ing abysmal overall and none of their customs are game changing enough to make up for that. Though if you could somehow provide reasoning to think otherwise I'd be quite happy to look into it because I like Swordfighter and Gunner a lot, but exactly because I like them a lot I have already spent a lot of time, effort, and research on them. Mii Swordfighter is a dead end without buffs.

Also lol at the guy who said Zelda isn't close to bottom tier and never has been for no real reason other than that he says so.http://smashboards.com/members/new_dumal.208234/

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zelda is not good guys. Why would you play her over Rosalina? Both are footsie characters. Luma is basically a projectile and phantom knight rolled into one. Rosa has better buttons, better hitboxes, better landing traps, better edge guarding, etc.

 

[Jalil]

I don't see much similarity between Zelda and Rosa and that statements true for basically every character who isn't sheik, cloud, fox, diddy, etc.

 

[Megamang]

And... zelda has a reflector! And you have to sweetspot half of her moves for them to function.

 

[buzzard]

And... zelda has a reflector! And you have to sweetspot half of her moves for them to function.

And you need to do more than hitting with the infinitely small sweetspot that BAir and FAir have, you also need to do it during the first frame of those moves, so it's not only a sweetspot, but an early hit as well. The devs combined Marth's tippers disadvantages with those from Falcon's knee while also not having as much KO potential as those nor setups as good as Marth and Falcon have into those moves.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I really rather people not talk about Zelda.....its kinda redundant and sad to see the same, usual stuff said about her.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Well then lets talk about Mii Fighters instead, assuming the common standard 1111 set, does anyone think any of their spots on the tier list have changed?

 

[PMMikey]

From my personal use I say for the Mii fighters that if we legalize them in my honest opinion the set small for height and weight is the best suited for any of the Mii fighters. The reason I say the small because simply they're faster, lighter and have better comboing ability over the standard or heavier counter part of the fighters. In the ruling of them I say have an automatic standard looking MII fighter just to small for all three classed 1111 would be the move set unless more Mii acceptance into customizing them but that's a different story for another day.

 

[Nobie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isxwK6O_278

ZerO released a video about characters he'd like to see buffed, not because he thinks they're the weakest but mostly because they don't give the feeling to the player of being POWERFUL. It's not exactly a competitive perspective by his own admission.

One thing stands out to me though, which is his choice of Marth. His reasoning is that Marth in previous games feels like a scary threat at all times, because he's fast, full of disjoints, immensely powerful, and just controls a certain range mercilessly. Now, Marth doesn't feel as scary.

While I can't say for sure, I think this is very intentional change to Marth. As a swordsman, as a fencer, they probably redesigned him to not be able to just invalidate opponents by making him feel less overwhelming to fight. I really applaud the buffs Marth received and the way players have been pushing the character because I like a kinder, more methodical Marth more than a wall of death Marth.

 

[ARISTOS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isxwK6O_278

ZerO released a video about characters he'd like to see buffed, not because he thinks they're the weakest but mostly because they don't give the feeling to the player of being POWERFUL. It's not exactly a competitive perspective by his own admission.

One thing stands out to me though, which is his choice of Marth. His reasoning is that Marth in previous games feels like a scary threat at all times, because he's fast, full of disjoints, immensely powerful, and just controls a certain range mercilessly. Now, Marth doesn't feel as scary.

While I can't say for sure, I think this is very intentional change to Marth. As a swordsman, as a fencer, they probably redesigned him to not be able to just invalidate opponents by making him feel less overwhelming to fight. I really applaud the buffs Marth received and the way players have been pushing the character because I like a kinder, more methodical Marth more than a wall of death Marth.

Look at Corrin now- then increase the hitbox size of his sword and grounded speed, and you have previous Marth. is one of maybe two characters to go even with - that should speak volumes about the character

Marth is an incredibly strongly designed fighter, with great movement and attack specs. If you aren't careful in how you approach him, he gets to wall out characters for free.

being stronger would undoubtedly be cool but it's much better for the meta that Marth not get close to what he was before

EDIT: People asking for short hop double fair is legit triggering

 

[SubconsciousRose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isxwK6O_278

ZerO released a video about characters he'd like to see buffed, not because he thinks they're the weakest but mostly because they don't give the feeling to the player of being POWERFUL. It's not exactly a competitive perspective by his own admission.

One thing stands out to me though, which is his choice of Marth. His reasoning is that Marth in previous games feels like a scary threat at all times, because he's fast, full of disjoints, immensely powerful, and just controls a certain range mercilessly. Now, Marth doesn't feel as scary.

While I can't say for sure, I think this is very intentional change to Marth. As a swordsman, as a fencer, they probably redesigned him to not be able to just invalidate opponents by making him feel less overwhelming to fight. I really applaud the buffs Marth received and the way players have been pushing the character because I like a kinder, more methodical Marth more than a wall of death Marth.

I think the general life span of Smash 4 as a whole with the progression of patches reflects the theme of the development team not wanting a ridiculous amount of moves to be overbearing for players in general regardless of level of play. If you look at some of the more overtuned/simplified tools that used to be in place such as Diddy's old up air and down throw or Luigi's down throw, they're the kind of options that are not only a bit too good, but they also make the respective characters who have those tools become much more one dimensional. Why use option B if option A is easier and more rewarding the vast majority of the time?

It legitimately does feel frustrating if there is the existence of moves that feel completely overbearing and I think that's something people feel about just games in general and what the development team tries to avoid. A lot of things in Melee kind of have that feeling because whatever was in the game on release literally had to stay so characters having insane toolkits/options like Marth in general/Jigglypuff back air (who gave her an invisible sword)/Fox's shine and etc. are something you have to accept if you play the game.

That's not to say there aren't some moves in Smash 4 that feel kinda crazy even now like Rosa Uair/Corrin's Instant Pin/Witch Twist/Limit Cross Slash (namely the lack of endlag) and other things.

But I think I'm pleased with how the development team has handled the presence of overbearing tools in Smash 4 as the game does feel very tame now compared to what it once was by comparison.

 

[Megamang]

Marth is really powerful. I know that isn't what he means, but I think Marth could be a little more viable if he was less powerful on his tippers, and this isn't an idea I originated (I think I read it from Vipermoon but im not sure).

But nothing can compare to melee marth because... well, he was ridiculous. You have a disjoint that is lightning fast, confirms into horrific combos, and a grab that reaches as far as your sword that also is a crazy combo throw. Even the most dominant swordsmen in smash 4 don't have a solid grab game (Roy is a weird exception) because that is overbearing as ****, and someone grabbing you with one hand shouldn't be throwing you around like a grappler anyways.

 

[meleebrawler]

Marth is really powerful. I know that isn't what he means, but I think Marth could be a little more viable if he was less powerful on his tippers, and this isn't an idea I originated (I think I read it from Vipermoon but im not sure).

But nothing can compare to melee marth because... well, he was ridiculous. You have a disjoint that is lightning fast, confirms into horrific combos, and a grab that reaches as far as your sword that also is a crazy combo throw. Even the most dominant swordsmen in smash 4 don't have a solid grab game (Roy is a weird exception) because that is overbearing as ****, and someone grabbing you with one hand shouldn't be throwing you around like a grappler anyways.

...Most of the "grapplers" in this game actually only use one hand to do so.

 

[Megamang]

Its not so much the animation as much as the idea of a swordsman having an amazing grab game. It'd be like if Marth had fox's old jab. You get rekt for getting in on them, and a shield at midrange isn't even a little reprieve from the disjoint hell. Marth fits in melee, but his power level had to be reduced for smash 4; he was a huge stumbling block for many characters' viability in previous titles. He ended up better than DDD, and is pretty viable and well made IMO... now that he doesn't lose to needles. Man I say that a lot.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Honestly don't understand why so many people want Marth to get even more buffs. The character already has several insanely powerful tools such as tilts and aerials that are fast, safe, have good damage output, range, and kill power, as well as a jab that sets up into several other moves such as Fair and D-Tilt; things that most other characters would kill for. Yes, I understand that he is undertuned in several areas, but this is done to balance out his many clearly overtuned tools.

 

[Greward]

Tbh marth's design in Melee/Brawl is overpowered in concept.

You can't have a character with:

superb range
strong combo game
great grab game
fast / good mobility
strong frame data (specially for a swordie... brawl sideB / upB where such strong options), with a moveset with very low commitment

I mean he's basically perfect in strengths/weakness.

Cloud is the closest we have to brawl marth, except that his grab game is poor and his recovery isn't good (although Marth's recovery is average).

Smash4 Marth is slower and lost his amazing grab game because of design / balancing issues. If he was his brawl incarnation he would be too strong. A character whose selling points are both outranging and outspeeding you is very hard to be balanced. Sheik is kinda like that tho.

 

[Nobie]

Mr. E just beat Nairo with Marth in two sets of grand finals (though Nairo was kind of sandbagging with Robin in Set 1).

It was at Smash 4-Ever, a NJ weekly that's actually quite strong on average.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Justice's reaction time is stupid. Even he's surprised sometimes by how good it is. He's from Oregon and doesn't go to a whole lot, but is unanimously "Oregon's best player." (They're having a bunch of drama stuff with their PR on Facebook, it's entertaining to say the least). I've never heard of Stark and Probeans...

I didn't really watch the bottom half of top-8 so I can't confirm characters, but those are everyone's "mains" (Viviff known more for his Mario though). [But yes, he played Bowser vs Konga]

I only played Cloud for game 3 against Justice, but yes, I guess he'd be put there.
BigD could have tried vs Magister or any one of his 40 other characters, but I think you're right in assuming he went all Dedede.

Justice had gotten better than Viviff? I watched a match between them a long time ago, and it seemed like Viviff had it in the bag before.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Look at Corrin now- then increase the hitbox size of his sword and grounded speed, and you have previous Marth. is one of maybe two characters to go even with - that should speak volumes about the character

Marth is an incredibly strongly designed fighter, with great movement and attack specs. If you aren't careful in how you approach him, he gets to wall out characters for free.

being stronger would undoubtedly be cool but it's much better for the meta that Marth not get close to what he was before

EDIT: People asking for short hop double fair is legit triggering

Marth is a character that has a lot of potential and now that players are seeing it and getting results with him, I can expect his position on the tier list to change and so can a lot of others. He is a possible counter to Bayonetta, does decent against Sheik and Diddy, Cloud I'm not sure about though.
As for buffs, the only thing I would like to see really is a little bit less landing on on his moves so that he can actually string some moves together.

Right now he has players like Mr. E and Pugwest pushing his meta further than most players though it would go and I'm excited to see what's going to happen with him in the future

EDIT: can someone link me to the Mr. E vs Nairo set?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Brawl Marth wouldn't be bad for the current meta.
His hitboxes were oppressing and some characters simply couldn't get past his Fair wall, but then he wasn't able to consistently land KOs, his main moves would be ridiculously stale and his recovery wasn't amazing (though pretty good).
If he were directly transferred from Brawl he would fare well without being overtuned.

 

[NairWizard]

I look at Marth and see a comparison to Mewtwo as inevitable. The two can kind of do the same thing, but just take a look at Mewtwo's advantages over Marth:

• Way, way, way better options out of dash. What does Marth do? Dolphin Slash? Mewtwo's insane dash attack and strong up-smash are leagues better than that.
• Better anti-zoning game, with the best projectile in the game (or among the best), on top of a reflector
• An easier time killing. Marth, to his credit, can kill very early with the appropriate tipper read, but a kill throw at a reasonable % is way more consistent, and f-air not having to be tippered to be destructive is great. Plus Shadow Ball.
• Better grab reward. Marth has a better pummel but Mewtwo's f-throw is bonkers. Also worth repeating because kill throws are that important: kill throws!
• Better overall mobility. Marth has better air accel and traction, but Mewtwo has better run speed, initial dash, and walk accel, on top of his super incredible airdodge, which lets him move in ways Marth couldn't dream of, both in neutral and disadvantage.

On Marth's side, he's heavier, and his arcing hitboxes (very important for a swordsman character) are better on the likes of f-tilt and f-air, but it's hard to argue that Marth wouldn't love Mewtwo's f-air and d-tilt in exchange.

Thinking of it that way, Marth buffs don't sound so ludicrous to me. Right now, his "sell" is early kills via tipper while sporting a solid neutral game, but Mewtwo kills more consistently, is more flexible and arguably better in neutral, and gets more rewarding conversions.

This does not make Marth unplayable, of course. In fact, I think that he's a decent character. But just as Lucina sort of lives in Marth's perpetual shadow, I think Marth also lives in Mewtwo's shadow in the current patch cycle.

 

[BunbUn129]

All Marth needs is better damage on his throws. Cloud is also supposed to have a bad grab game but his throws deal at least 6%, while Marth's deal at most 5%. Ryu and Fox also lack extensive grab follow-ups and KO throws (Marth's up throw isn't particularly strong), but their throws deal more damage, so I think Marth deserves a bit more damage on his throws.

 

[Lag Chan]

Well then lets talk about Mii Fighters instead, assuming the common standard 1111 set, does anyone think any of their spots on the tier list have changed?

I can understand why you think that in the previous post, since I know for sure that the Miis aren't going to set the meta on fire or anything. Still, I feel Swordfighter has a lot of good points about him, but is held back because his downsides aren't seen as favourable in the meta. When you have a character with both subpar mobility and mediocre frame data that doesn't exactly make people want to use them. Also considering that the closest comparison to Swordfighter is , yeah...

Then again, that's not the be all and end all with how bad frame data () and bad mobility () can still mean you can be a good character. In Swordfighter's case, he has a combination of both good range and good damage throughout his moveset, so Swordfighter shouldn't have to worry when it comes to consistently getting percent. He's got a fair amount of combos to his name, nothing amazing but the main draw from this is both how he can combo into his grab on top of having a Hoo Haa that can KO heavies and fast fallers. Even then he's got more confirms into his Uair, which itself is a stupidly good move.

The main draw to Swordfighter personally is how he's a lot more balanced compared to and . One is all about straight up aggression, the other is about straight up defence. This means that for every match up they do really well in, there's another match up they get absolutely creamed in. can go up against okay but gets destroyed by and does okay against but loses horribly to .

Swordfighter doesn't have to worry about that, they can play a defence or a aggression game whenever they want. They can sit back and use neutral B to find themselves an opening and space themselves out if they want, and they can go in with fairs and grabs when they feel like being aggressive. can't play defence like that and can't play aggression like that, which makes Swordfighter the most flexible and have what could be a pretty good match up spread compared to and .

And then we get to the matter of tier lists. Right now I don't think we can value the Mii Fighters on tiers, since the rulesets are still in limbo on what's allowed and what isn't, plus there simply isn't enough Mii Fighter play to get a good gauge on how their match up spreads are. I feel not including them in tiers is much better than dumping them into the bottom tier for no good reason outside of just results, since you can't gauge a character's skill solely on either just results or just theory.

Plus you might be right in the end, maybe Swordfighter is bottom tier. The way the meta changes shows that anything is possible. At the start of the meta I was sure was at the top of the low tier, but power creep is a thing and now I'm sure is bottom 5 right now. So really it's not impossible to have the Mii Fighters end up all being bottom tier, but right now we can't really say so with the Mii rulesets in their state of limbo. When they get sorted out, maybe then we'll be able to gauge them properly.

 

[Nobie]

All that Zelda talk before, and I'm surprised no one (including myself) mentioned what might be Zelda's biggest 1.1.5 buff:

Spoiler: Standing Grab

https://zippy.gfycat.com/MellowWhirlwindConey.webm

Talk about trying to space aerials against her, I wouldn't be surprised if she could just grab you out of things no matter how hard you try.

That being said, the move is Frame 10, which makes it almost like a mini-tether (without the bad tether recovery).

I think it might actually outrange Bowser's grab, but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I would like it if Marth did more damage on his normals.

For a character with a weak advantage, his neutral should feel kinda oppressive. "Don't whiff around me or you'll take 20% tipper per hit!"


I would be scared out of my mind.

 

[Megamang]

The thing about Zelda is, she would be way better off with a massively improved dashgrab over a solid standing grab, because her big issue (which has been her issue since Melee) is that everyone makes her approach, then punishes her for having a bad approach. Yea, if you space aerials on her shield it can go wrong, but she has always been decent at punishing approaches. But that doesn't help when im lobbing projectile at her, then going to trade when she jumps because she can't run in on the ground threateningly and her fair won't trade worth **** 99% of the time, and it feels like the onus is on me to not let her sweetspot more than a good zelda could hit the fair in those situations.


I'll be the first to admit that I don't have MU experience against even a mediocre Zelda. This opinion is based on playing Ripple's Zelda in melee, going from getting rocked to doing well when he told me to just be lame, utilt her down when she comes in and consistently force her to come in. Her moveset hasn't changed that much, and its really sad when shiek gets versatile, powerful, invincible bouncing fish and zelda gets a demon **** thing that can be reflected, killed, and doesn't really force an approach anyways. Best I can say about that move is that it can kill you for a misstimed airdodge offstage if you don't know the MU, but if you do you just avoid the horizontal. If the startup looked exactly like Din's fire and even sent out a fake flare, it could actually be a good mixup, but as it is you watch zelda and you just won't get hit by her projectiles. Especially with how linear the timing is, since her projectile can't be mixed up timing wise at all. Like, Zelda had shiek on her down b and didn't get **** to compensate, and its sad when you look at Shiek's option to cover her killing weakness that Zelda 'left' and its actually a better button than all of Zelda's.

Running shield-> grab is buffed, which is nice.

 

[LordShade67]

Way, way, way better options out of dash. What does Marth do? Dolphin Slash? Mewtwo's insane dash attack and strong up-smash are leagues better than that.

Dancing Blade is usually a better option for Marth from a dash. Only 2 frames slower (Frame 6), the forward combo can do upwards of 16%(Assuming that blasted second hit actually lands, and usually more than Roy's DED.), and p combo doing a little more % + potentially starting a juggle/landing trap.

That said, you are correct, though. Having played both characters myself, Mewtwo is definitely the superior character. Kind of an ironic twist from the Melee days when this was an unwinnable MU for Mewtwo, haha.

 

[Asdioh]

All Marth needs is better damage on his throws. Cloud is also supposed to have a bad grab game but his throws deal at least 6%, while Marth's deal at most 5%. Ryu and Fox also lack extensive grab follow-ups and KO throws (Marth's up throw isn't particularly strong), but their throws deal more damage, so I think Marth deserves a bit more damage on his throws.

This is such a simple solution, but I think it would help so many characters. Not every character needs to have throws that combo, KO combo, or outright KO. Simply increasing the damage of certain throws, or even the damage of their pummels, would go a long way. I've thought for a while that the simplest, most reasonable buff for the likes of Marth, Lucina, Toon Link, Yoshi, and maybe some others, is to just increase the reward on their grabs by a little bit of damage. It's one of the things that has helped Kirby stay above water before his Fthrow got buffed: he's always had one of the highest DPS pummels in the game, coupled with a throw that does 10% damage, meaning he will ALWAYS get at least a nice reward from a grab. Then you have Toon Link, Yoshi, and others, who have risky tether grabs, throws that deal 7% max, and don't combo. If Marth's Fthrow/Bthrow did 7-8%, instead of 4%, think of how much damage that could add up over the course of a stock. It could mean the difference between a win and a loss.

But other than that, I don't see what buffs Marth would get at this point without making him ... unpleasant ... like he was in the last two games. I'm also biased because my entire character is smaller than his sword.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why the heck are you guys talking about buffing Marth again? He's fine now, there's nothing specifically wrong with the character that needs to be remedied through buffs anymore.

 

[LordShade67]

Why the heck are you guys talking about buffing Marth again? He's fine now, there's nothing specifically wrong with the character that needs to be remedied through buffs anymore.

Only thing I can think of at this point is, like I said above, that blasted DB2Forward hit whiffing mid-combo. Maybe just me, though.

That's it, really. He's in a far better place now than he was in the 3DS days.