Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

The bolded phrases could mean the same thing. If I'm bringing everyone into top tier land, that's a even platform.

Well yes, but good luck buffing everybody into top tier withoutcreating serious problems. Nerfing 10-20 characters is easier then buffing 30-40 characters. Bringing one character from mid to high tier just creates another problematic matchup for the majority of the cast. Doing the opposite is one less bad matchup for most characters.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Conversion is more complicated in Smash than in every other fighter, not only due to varying launch heights via damage and weight but also that it gives victims almost everything short of a burst mechanic to break combos. The mere ability for a victim to act beyond maybe adjusting landing position slightly after being hit in or into the air is unheard of in other fighters.

By it's very design of ring out KOs, Smash is a game where you (for the most part) can't always rely on big combos for damage and finishers, which is why neutral is valued much more heavily.

Ehhh that last statement fees iffy. The point of the neutral is to avoid damage while damaging your opponent and if you're not getting severely punished for you mistakes in the neutral, then you're gonna play more sloppy and looser. I think working your punish game could be up there at least with the neutral to have every hit count.

LancerStaff its possible,
But extremely hard to achieve

 

[Megamang]

I think he is saying neutral is more important because you are playing neutral more, because the person getting hit usually has a good chance to return to neutral.

I find this to be true, but pressing advantage/dying for disadvantage is definitely way more prevalent than Brawl. Which is why I actually feel like positional throws are helpful.

 

[Das Koopa]

now for an opinionated tier list. The sections aren't ordered, because when Melee players still can't decide who #2 is after 15 years, what hope do we have?

Top:


Upper-High:


These increasingly seem to be the generally agreed upon "top 9" because these characters bring in the absolute most consistent results, with all of these characters collectively taking up the majority of tournament wins and highest placings. Beyond that, these characters generally have the strongest theory going for them. Top is separate based on my results chart, and I think Cloud and Bayonetta will decline long-term, but Sheik and Diddy seem to near-unquestionably be two of the best. Is this linked to both having the best neutral games? Probably.


High:



Villager, Ryu, and Pikachu often struggle to maintain the results of anybody else in this category, but Ryu's placings are generally good when they exist. Can't speak for Chu or Killager - both may be supremely overrated, and there may be a reason for their lack of results that extend beyond a lack of a large playerbase.

Meta Knight could maybe be a pick for the 10th spot. Dunno. He's definitely had a lull since the nerfs, but a good Leo performance in the U.S. could change that.


Upper-Mid:


Decently balanced characters with a lot of pros and cons that will give them a persistent tourney presence but probably will prevent them from every placing as consistently as the above few. I doubt any of these characters will ever win majors, but it's not impossible.

Mid:


Could probably use a buff or two to be super-mainstream, and you'll probably need a secondary if you run any of these guys. Duck Hunt and WFT are, imo, underrated, because playing cheap and zoning is highly effective and beneficial with the right amount of patience. Lucas is always 1-2 matches away from being a consistent top 8 presence. Robin and Marth have had a lot of near-accomplishments, but seem to miss out in tournies by a couple of sets from making big-time top 16s or top 8s. Nonetheless, both characters have mains that have taken sets off of top level players, so they're clearly worthy.


Borderline:


You could probably lump this with the above, but these characters are a bit more middling in toolsets and results. Mii Gunner has the strongest results among 1111 Mii Fighters as far as I'm aware, which is more that can be said for Brawler and Swordfighter. Most of these characters have individual/few accomplishments that aren't as notable as the above but are more worthy than the characters below.

-Regi's work with G&W
-Tweek's work with Jr.
-Goggles taking Mr. R to last hit, last stock, game 5 with Kirby.
-JWest doing well against several high-level players and making top 8 in a very tough region.
-Link's recent tourney win.

Low:


All of these guys have middling results but get some decent tools that prevent them from being near-unusable in high level tournies, and 2-3 buffs to fix common complaints could make all of these guys mid-tier. I'd say Dedede and Palutena are underrated as is and that Zard and Falco are overestimated in their capabilities. Mobility buffs for either would go along way.


Bottom:


maybe we weren't wrong when we thought swordfighter was the worst in the game in 2014 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[BSP]

This is such a simple solution, but I think it would help so many characters. Not every character needs to have throws that combo, KO combo, or outright KO. Simply increasing the damage of certain throws, or even the damage of their pummels, would go a long way. I've thought for a while that the simplest, most reasonable buff for the likes of Marth, Lucina, Toon Link, Yoshi, and maybe some others, is to just increase the reward on their grabs by a little bit of damage. It's one of the things that has helped Kirby stay above water before his Fthrow got buffed: he's always had one of the highest DPS pummels in the game, coupled with a throw that does 10% damage, meaning he will ALWAYS get at least a nice reward from a grab. Then you have Toon Link, Yoshi, and others, who have risky tether grabs, throws that deal 7% max, and don't combo. If Marth's Fthrow/Bthrow did 7-8%, instead of 4%, think of how much damage that could add up over the course of a stock. It could mean the difference between a win and a loss.

All of the swordsmen already have a (massive?) leg up in aerial battles and anti-airing in general since the swords can't lose and won't trade if you space properly. The Links can have lots of hitboxes flying around at once in addition to their swords, and Yoshi...hmm, idk about him, but I can tell you I'm glad he doesn't have a throw that does 10%+. I'd imagine low throw damage for swordsman is to make up for their general dominance in the air and against air stuff.

Then again, the Pits basically have swords and they have two throws that do at least 10%. Who knows how they decide this stuff.

 

[Y2Kay]

now for an opinionated tier list. The sections aren't ordered, because when Melee players still can't decide who #2 is after 15 years, what hope do we have?

Top:


Upper-High:


These increasingly seem to be the generally agreed upon "top 9" because these characters bring in the absolute most consistent results, with all of these characters collectively taking up the majority of tournament wins and highest placings. Beyond that, these characters generally have the strongest theory going for them. Top is separate based on my results chart, and I think Cloud and Bayonetta will decline long-term, but Sheik and Diddy seem to near-unquestionably be two of the best. Is this linked to both having the best neutral games? Probably.


High:



Villager, Ryu, and Pikachu often struggle to maintain the results of anybody else in this category, but Ryu's placings are generally good when they exist. Can't speak for Chu or Killager - both may be supremely overrated, and there may be a reason for their lack of results that extend beyond a lack of a large playerbase.

Meta Knight could maybe be a pick for the 10th spot. Dunno. He's definitely had a lull since the nerfs, but a good Leo performance in the U.S. could change that.


Upper-Mid:


Decently balanced characters with a lot of pros and cons that will give them a persistent tourney presence but probably will prevent them from every placing as consistently as the above few. I doubt any of these characters will ever win majors, but it's not impossible.

Mid:


Could probably use a buff or two to be super-mainstream, and you'll probably need a secondary if you run any of these guys. Duck Hunt and WFT are, imo, underrated, because playing cheap and zoning is highly effective and beneficial with the right amount of patience. Lucas is always 1-2 matches away from being a consistent top 8 presence. Robin and Marth have had a lot of near-accomplishments, but seem to miss out in tournies by a couple of sets from making big-time top 16s or top 8s. Nonetheless, both characters have mains that have taken sets off of top level players, so they're clearly worthy.


Borderline:


You could probably lump this with the above, but these characters are a bit more middling in toolsets and results. Mii Gunner has the strongest results among 1111 Mii Fighters as far as I'm aware, which is more that can be said for Brawler and Swordfighter. Most of these characters have individual/few accomplishments that aren't as notable as the above but are more worthy than the characters below.

-Regi's work with G&W
-Tweek's work with Jr.
-Goggles taking Mr. R to last hit, last stock, game 5 with Kirby.
-JWest doing well against several high-level players and making top 8 in a very tough region.
-Link's recent tourney win.

Low:


All of these guys have middling results but get some decent tools that prevent them from being near-unusable in high level tournies, and 2-3 buffs to fix common complaints could make all of these guys mid-tier. I'd say Dedede and Palutena are underrated as is and that Zard and Falco are overestimated in their capabilities. Mobility buffs for either would go along way.


Bottom:


maybe we weren't wrong when we thought swordfighter was the worst in the game in 2014 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

in high tier is suspect to me, but I understand why you did it. Their high level results are on the same level with the characters below them, but they do noticeably better at the regional level.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

What notable results have we seen from Corrin?

 

[L9999]

now for an opinionated tier list. The sections aren't ordered, because when Melee players still can't decide who #2 is after 15 years, what hope do we have?

Top:


Upper-High:


These increasingly seem to be the generally agreed upon "top 9" because these characters bring in the absolute most consistent results, with all of these characters collectively taking up the majority of tournament wins and highest placings. Beyond that, these characters generally have the strongest theory going for them. Top is separate based on my results chart, and I think Cloud and Bayonetta will decline long-term, but Sheik and Diddy seem to near-unquestionably be two of the best. Is this linked to both having the best neutral games? Probably.


High:



Villager, Ryu, and Pikachu often struggle to maintain the results of anybody else in this category, but Ryu's placings are generally good when they exist. Can't speak for Chu or Killager - both may be supremely overrated, and there may be a reason for their lack of results that extend beyond a lack of a large playerbase.

Meta Knight could maybe be a pick for the 10th spot. Dunno. He's definitely had a lull since the nerfs, but a good Leo performance in the U.S. could change that.


Upper-Mid:


Decently balanced characters with a lot of pros and cons that will give them a persistent tourney presence but probably will prevent them from every placing as consistently as the above few. I doubt any of these characters will ever win majors, but it's not impossible.

Mid:


Could probably use a buff or two to be super-mainstream, and you'll probably need a secondary if you run any of these guys. Duck Hunt and WFT are, imo, underrated, because playing cheap and zoning is highly effective and beneficial with the right amount of patience. Lucas is always 1-2 matches away from being a consistent top 8 presence. Robin and Marth have had a lot of near-accomplishments, but seem to miss out in tournies by a couple of sets from making big-time top 16s or top 8s. Nonetheless, both characters have mains that have taken sets off of top level players, so they're clearly worthy.


Borderline:


You could probably lump this with the above, but these characters are a bit more middling in toolsets and results. Mii Gunner has the strongest results among 1111 Mii Fighters as far as I'm aware, which is more that can be said for Brawler and Swordfighter. Most of these characters have individual/few accomplishments that aren't as notable as the above but are more worthy than the characters below.

-Regi's work with G&W
-Tweek's work with Jr.
-Goggles taking Mr. R to last hit, last stock, game 5 with Kirby.
-JWest doing well against several high-level players and making top 8 in a very tough region.
-Link's recent tourney win.

Low:


All of these guys have middling results but get some decent tools that prevent them from being near-unusable in high level tournies, and 2-3 buffs to fix common complaints could make all of these guys mid-tier. I'd say Dedede and Palutena are underrated as is and that Zard and Falco are overestimated in their capabilities. Mobility buffs for either would go along way.


Bottom:


maybe we weren't wrong when we thought swordfighter was the worst in the game in 2014 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

1111 guest size SF might as well be the worst character in the game. He has all the qualities to be so, but he is unknown enough so everyone can piss on Puff or Ganon. Only masochists play this character. (Like me). But good tier list, for once I don't disagree.

 

[Illuminose]

Y'all are overrating Toon Link. Look, I get that Toon Link has good results...but where did that translate to Toon Link being one of the best high tier characters (by this I mean chars ~15-20)? He's still a clearly flawed character with abusable weaknesses, including a legitimate huge weakness to shield, and numerous bad matchups. Sheik is terrible, Mario is terrible, Cloud is bad, Bayonetta is bad, Pikachu is bad, MK is still bad, Ness is bad...these are common matchups, they should not typically be lost by players who know the matchup, and they limit Toon Link significantly. If you don't believe me please ask an actual Toon Link main. Another issue is utterly awful OOS and lackluster neutral without a bomb, which is exacerbated by bomb pulls being laggy enough to pressure and punish.

I'm not trying to say that Toon Link is a bad character. His projectiles are good, his pressure is good, bombs and bomb confirms in general are crazy; in general Toon Link racks up damage pretty quickly and can kill pretty solidly as well. All I'm saying is that Toon Link pretty clearly has flawed matchups and overarching issues that limit him in top tier matchups and give him more clear weaknesses than other characters in that high tier sphere (Pits, Corrin, Luigi, Mega Man, Peach, w/e). Let's stop overrating him please.

 

[Blobface]

I swear we have the "nerfing top tiers vs buffing bottom tiers" discussion at least 2 times a month.

I see it like this: say you have 428 wedding cakes, all of different shapes, flavors, and most importantly heights, and you'd prefer them to be closer to the same height. Is it easier to make the shorter cakes taller, or the taller cakes shorter? More importantly, what will be the most enjoyable for the most people?

Answer: What event are you even having that requires 428 wedding cakes?

 

[Rizen]

(Mmmm cake)

Why is everyone talking about nerf/buffs? Is there another patch coming we know of or is it speculation?

 

[my_T]

All of the swordsmen already have a (massive?) leg up in aerial battles and anti-airing in general since the swords can't lose and won't trade if you space properly. The Links can have lots of hitboxes flying around at once in addition to their swords, and Yoshi...hmm, idk about him, but I can tell you I'm glad he doesn't have a throw that does 10%+. I'd imagine low throw damage for swordsman is to make up for their general dominance in the air and against air stuff.

Then again, the Pits basically have swords and they have two throws that do at least 10%. Who knows how they decide this stuff.

In defense of the pits, they dont have some of the pros of other swordsman types. They lack huge arcing hitboxes unlike other swordies, they have significantly less range compared to other swordies, and they can't really wall you out compared to the likes of Ike, Marcina, Cloud.

they are more of a rushdown type of character. They rely heavily on raw footsies what with them having one of the best rolls in the game, on top of good dash speed, walk speed, and acceleration. Look at this set between Paseriman and Komorikiri. Paseriman is often overlooked as a Pit player but you can tell just by watching that he's a really good player. IMO i think he's just as good as Earth.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Sheik was an incredibly problematic character though.

The ideal solution isn't to create more top tiers, it's to bring everyone around the same level. Honestly, Marth is really solid right now; his mains need to take him to the next level (and not Sakurai via buffs)

The issue with Marth is his combo game is almost non existent. His only consistent way of wracking up damage right now is with dancing blade and spamming pummel, one of which barely works half the time. I'm not saying give him SH double fair, but less landing lag on fair and bair seems reasonable
Other than that hes an extremely solid character

 

[BunbUn129]

From the perspective of a good game designer, there's a lot more that goes into buffing/nerfing characters than just tier placement. Sakurai himself said in one interview that he prioritizes variety in play style rather than achieving perfect balance. I said a while back in one of my posts that a nerf is only needed in the following cases:

1) a move/set-up invalidates a character's intended weakness (Sheik's 50/50)

2) a move/set-up is so effective that it results in a character almost always forgoing everything else for such an option (Diddy's Hoo Hah, MK's uair combo)

Similarly, a character should not be buffed to make them more viable, but instead so that they can properly execute their gameplan. Right now there aren't that many left in this category (off the top of my head, Roy, D3, and Jiggs). Bowser and DK deserved their throw buffs because they're bruisers who need to be able to deal consistently good damage when they can land a hit. If you were judging who needs a buff based on tier placement, then 80% or so of the cast is in need of some major buffs. It's pretty difficult to buff a character to top-tier status without them becoming problematic in some way, and MK and Luigi are both proof of this.

....

Also Das Koopa I highly doubt MK placing at #10, both in terms of theory and results. In theory, most top tiers are more capable of winning neutral consistently and now generally get more reward as well than MK. His results are only getting worse: Leo and Tyrant are both falling onto secondaries a lot more, Ito isn't very active, S2H and Seibrik were never very notable, Jband has thoughts of switching over to Diddy, and Aba, for all intents and purposes, has dropped the character. MK is still getting overall good results, but results don't tell you everything. People still aren't SDI'ing MK's bull**** and he's already struggling noticeably, and he has nowhere to go but down.

 

[Routa]

1111 guest size SF might as well be the worst character in the game. He has all the qualities to be so, but he is unknown enough so everyone can piss on Puff or Ganon. Only masochists play this character. (Like me). But good tier list, for once I don't disagree.

As someone who has been messing with Swordspider and have been checking out his performance in tournaments... He isn't what we call a bottom tier trash even in 1111 form. Swordspider is usable in his 1111 form due to his good combo game and good aerials. His edgeguarding, recovery and neutral are indeed worse in 1111 form, but they don't hinder him as much as people say. This can be seen from good 1111 Swordspider performance in general. Atm only reason to place him in bottom tier is lack of knowledge. He belongs to low tier.

As for 1111 Brawler... He is bad. Hands down Guest 1111 Brawler is THE WORST character in game. Even the Brawler mains agree. I will explain more in depth once I get home from work.

 

[TriTails]

Answer: What event are you even having that requires 428 wedding cakes?

Feeding Kirby and Pit.

----
Buffs talks are kinda pointless to do because we have no news of a new patch nor we are in control (somethingsomethingChara). But here's my ramble on buffing low tiers vs nerfing top tiers.

Nerfing top tiers will always be superior option than buffing low tiers, albeit, doing both simulatenously is an even wiser choice.

Think of it this way: You want Luigi to be top tier, but you don't want to go study the character to know thoroughly how he interacts with other characters, how his tools work, how effective he can execute techs, etc. That's LOADS of work to do for one character.

K. Give him his old D-throw! Problem solved.

Now you have to measure how much other characters' meta is going to be affected by this. The likes of Rosalina (Read: Luma) won't mind too much. How about Fox? Falco? Falcon? Heavies? They're going to die to 14% B-air off a single D-throw or spike at the ledge, all off a single dashgrab.

Let's have a quick review! Maybe giving Luigi is old D-throw would once again bring complaints from 8374893274832 other players, low or high level. It'll also centerize his game at one single throw that will substitute creative gameplan to a simple yet effective one. Then complains will go flying, "Luigi is toxic to play against!", "This character is too oppresive!", "Why the **** he kills me at 90% with a single D-throw B-air!?", "Why am I taking 60% off one grab", etc.

Maybe we need to give him something else...

Now repeat this for 40-ish characters.

 

[Megamang]

The most obvious example of this was pre-patch needles. Really destroyed a lot of the cast, especially zoners or characters who usually can force an approach but couldn't against needles. You would have to boost a zoner's ability to have something on par with needles, a transcendent chargeable projectile with insane frame data and range, in order to bring him up to Shiek's level. So, lets increase the range of pellets to be .4 more than needles, so he can kinda zone her out if played right.

RIP all heavies, and characters with bad mobility. Repeated for each zoner... Their brackets would implode. You could give the heavies some stupid tool to beat these cross screen lemons, like Flare Blitz but full armored, cancel-able, and lagless... but then they rek other game modes, at low levels, and (amusingly) obliterate luma for free. ****. So now we need to buff Luma?


These are all hypothetical, dont take them seriously as buffs, its just to convey the idea. But, a real example happened right in front of us. Needles were toned down significantly, and suddenly zoners have a place in the meta.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

i don't really agree with this

If Sheik gets to exist then there's nothing wrong with buffing mid-tiers imo

I don't know where, when or why terms like "Sheik" or "mid tier" became part of this argument but let's just agree to not make this matter more complicated than it needs to be: Marth wins tournaments now [!!!], is capable of beating characters that used to be considered some of his worst [Sheik, ZSS] and generally doesn't lose any matchup by more than -1 anymore. Buffing him at this point and with our current knowledge of what he's capable would be stupid. Maybe not "wrong", as you put it, but definitely stupid.

 

[Yikarur]

As for 1111 Brawler... He is bad. Hands down Guest 1111 Brawler is THE WORST character in game. Even the Brawler mains agree. I will explain more in depth once I get home from work.

I don't agree ): Why would anyone thing that he is the worst. he isn't really qualified. His normals, his speed and his frame data are all top. He just has a bad recovery and has a hard time sealing stocks but I don't think he is the worst character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He also has like no range on anything, his only finisher is his very underwhelming usmash, his damage output isn't good enough to keep up with a lot of characters, his recovery is bad, he's relatively easy to outneutral and his dis/adavantaged states are nowhere near enough to compensate.

If we're really arguing about 1111 Miis then Brawler is definitely in competition for the title of least viable character.

 

[Lag Chan]

Default Bralwer could go either way really. and both suffer from the same problems as Brawler does, needing to put in so much work to get the job done to a point where it might not be worth the hassle, but lately has been doing pretty well for itself and we all know what is capable of, but then again that's the whole "potential" argument.

Like I said before, it's too early to be deciding where the Miis should be on a tier list. I feel there's hope for all three Mii fighters to have somewhere to shine. If anything I find it weird that both and get a lot of negative rep whilst gets off fine. They're not exactly a perfect character either.

 

[Yikarur]

They are all getting a bad rep because most Mii players don't play 1111. Gunner at least has ROM as a representant.

 

[Wintermelon43]

now for an opinionated tier list. The sections aren't ordered, because when Melee players still can't decide who #2 is after 15 years, what hope do we have?

Top:


Upper-High:


These increasingly seem to be the generally agreed upon "top 9" because these characters bring in the absolute most consistent results, with all of these characters collectively taking up the majority of tournament wins and highest placings. Beyond that, these characters generally have the strongest theory going for them. Top is separate based on my results chart, and I think Cloud and Bayonetta will decline long-term, but Sheik and Diddy seem to near-unquestionably be two of the best. Is this linked to both having the best neutral games? Probably.


High:



Villager, Ryu, and Pikachu often struggle to maintain the results of anybody else in this category, but Ryu's placings are generally good when they exist. Can't speak for Chu or Killager - both may be supremely overrated, and there may be a reason for their lack of results that extend beyond a lack of a large playerbase.

Meta Knight could maybe be a pick for the 10th spot. Dunno. He's definitely had a lull since the nerfs, but a good Leo performance in the U.S. could change that.


Upper-Mid:


Decently balanced characters with a lot of pros and cons that will give them a persistent tourney presence but probably will prevent them from every placing as consistently as the above few. I doubt any of these characters will ever win majors, but it's not impossible.

Mid:


Could probably use a buff or two to be super-mainstream, and you'll probably need a secondary if you run any of these guys. Duck Hunt and WFT are, imo, underrated, because playing cheap and zoning is highly effective and beneficial with the right amount of patience. Lucas is always 1-2 matches away from being a consistent top 8 presence. Robin and Marth have had a lot of near-accomplishments, but seem to miss out in tournies by a couple of sets from making big-time top 16s or top 8s. Nonetheless, both characters have mains that have taken sets off of top level players, so they're clearly worthy.


Borderline:


You could probably lump this with the above, but these characters are a bit more middling in toolsets and results. Mii Gunner has the strongest results among 1111 Mii Fighters as far as I'm aware, which is more that can be said for Brawler and Swordfighter. Most of these characters have individual/few accomplishments that aren't as notable as the above but are more worthy than the characters below.

-Regi's work with G&W
-Tweek's work with Jr.
-Goggles taking Mr. R to last hit, last stock, game 5 with Kirby.
-JWest doing well against several high-level players and making top 8 in a very tough region.
-Link's recent tourney win.

Low:


All of these guys have middling results but get some decent tools that prevent them from being near-unusable in high level tournies, and 2-3 buffs to fix common complaints could make all of these guys mid-tier. I'd say Dedede and Palutena are underrated as is and that Zard and Falco are overestimated in their capabilities. Mobility buffs for either would go along way.


Bottom:


maybe we weren't wrong when we thought swordfighter was the worst in the game in 2014 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Technically, by your definition of each tier, shoudn't be in low instead of borderline? He doesn't exactatly have good results or anything since Tweek dropped him, so middling results would make more sense. Bowser Jr. DOES have decent tools, such as mechakoopa and kill power, that allows him to be useable, but isn't that food in theory still (His theory is about the same as the others in that category). 2-3 buffs could defitenly make Bowser Jr. mid tier.

Also is easily low tier too, his theory is garbage, and the only reason people ever place him so high is because they overrate his random results.

 

[Rizen]

Also is easily low tier too, his theory is garbage, and the only reason people ever place him so high is because they overrate his random results.

What do you think Link's theory is? You always say it's garbage without explaining why you think that. Link has too many results to be a statistical outlier.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Am I the only one who think Marth/Lucina deserve a weight buff? Like I know it may not be that big but their weight is 90, that's nearly lightweight. They're also rather floaty making their vertical endurance even worse, it really should be a bit closer to Corrin's or even Roy's, dying 8% later wouldn't be HUGE but it would be reasonable

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] and we all know what is capable of [...]

Do we? If what we know he's capable of is based on how he's been performing in tournament then he should be without a doubt bottom 10, if not bottom 5.

 

[UberMadman]

Do we? If what we know he's capable of is based on how he's been performing in tournament then he should be without a doubt bottom 10, if not bottom 5.

Lately, or over the course of the lifespan of Smash 4? Because while his results have certainly been quite lowly as of late, Tweek's results with him seem to suggest he's capable of more. For example, Tweek got 33rd at Genesis 3 solo-maining Bowser Jr., which in case you have forgotten was probably the most stacked tournament Smash 4 has ever had, with over 1,000 entrants.

EDIT: Better yet, just look over Tweek's entire resume; it's pretty obvious that he had some consistency even before he switched away to Cloud.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know he did but that's pretty much the only achievement I can think of and he did not get any notable wins in the process. He had a free ride throught R1 pools before beating a player named Apachai and then losing to Komorikiri and Will back to back. I don't really see how that's a big deal.

 

[Lag Chan]

Do we? If what we know he's capable of is based on how he's been performing in tournament then he should be without a doubt bottom 10, if not bottom 5.

Hence why I mentioned about how it's not a strong argument afterwards. Tweek certainly showed off what he was capable of, but so far no one has managed to reach that same level and right now we're back to the whole "Oh but they're capable of so much" talk that plagued for the longest time. So I'm not trying to debate that is underrated or anything, I'm just saying that they're in the same spot that is in and based on how things go, it could either be a reversal of fortune or things could only go worse from here.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sorry to bring it back up, back you guys are bringing up some ridiculousness.

Feeding Kirby and Pit.

----
Buffs talks are kinda pointless to do because we have no news of a new patch nor we are in control (somethingsomethingChara). But here's my ramble on buffing low tiers vs nerfing top tiers.

Nerfing top tiers will always be superior option than buffing low tiers, albeit, doing both simulatenously is an even wiser choice.

Think of it this way: You want Luigi to be top tier, but you don't want to go study the character to know thoroughly how he interacts with other characters, how his tools work, how effective he can execute techs, etc. That's LOADS of work to do for one character.

K. Give him his old D-throw! Problem solved.

Now you have to measure how much other characters' meta is going to be affected by this. The likes of Rosalina (Read: Luma) won't mind too much. How about Fox? Falco? Falcon? Heavies? They're going to die to 14% B-air off a single D-throw or spike at the ledge, all off a single dashgrab.

Let's have a quick review! Maybe giving Luigi is old D-throw would once again bring complaints from 8374893274832 other players, low or high level. It'll also centerize his game at one single throw that will substitute creative gameplan to a simple yet effective one. Then complains will go flying, "Luigi is toxic to play against!", "This character is too oppresive!", "Why the **** he kills me at 90% with a single D-throw B-air!?", "Why am I taking 60% off one grab", etc.

Maybe we need to give him something else...

Now repeat this for 40-ish characters.

Who. Said. Anything. About. Making. Low tiers. Top tiers? That's that straw man. I want low tiers to be good. Good=/= top tier. It's also high and mid tier too.

 

[Nobie]

Some thoughts:

1) Mewtwo vs. Yoshi

A while ago some people asked how Abadango could consider Yoshi a winning matchup as Mewtwo when a lot of Mewtwos and Yoshis thought the opposite. The answer is the mobility buffs. The key to fighting Yoshi is to constantly keep barely out of range of his attacks, but when Yoshi has higher ground speed AND higher air speed it's easier said than done. Mewtwo could keep up in the air to a certain extent, but the ground game was always a bit scary. Now that Mewtwo is comparably fast in the air AND much faster on the ground, it means spacing out Yoshi (or chasing him down when he tries to fade back) is so much easier.

2) Zelda stuff

This isn't a defense of Zelda being secretly really good or anything, but I've been thinking about why Zelda is the way she is in terms of kit, strengths, weaknesses, etc. First, I've been looking at the buffs Zelda received, especially in the last patch. Second, I've been looking at a few of Ven's matches (listed by ZerO as the best Zelda around).

I talked about it previously, but I think the grab range buff might be the most significant Zelda buff to date. While her grab is frame 10 and among the slowest of the non-tethers, it makes the move monstrous in a lot of ways. A lot of times, characters can't whiff punish with a grab, but Zelda can. If you stick a limb out a bit too much, Zelda can just grab it (possibly on reaction?) and not incur the penalty of a true tether. In this way she's similar to Bowser, but I think her grab might actually have even better range (Bowser's is Frame 9 so it makes sense). I also see Ven use it this way a lot, as well as jab into grab.

The question is, why give Zelda this grab range buff? The game does not hand out grab range buffs often. Link got one. Plenty of characters get grab frame data changes. I think it's specifically to make Zelda better at whiff punishing attacks, combined with the interesting data on the rest of her attacks. Jab is Frame 11, the woooorst in the game, but it recovers quickly so it's difficult to punish if just thrown out in neutral (and of course terrible if thrown out up close). Watching Ven, he just jabs when the opponent is at a short distance knowing that they won't be fast enough to punish on reaction, and that there's a chance Zelda might catch them if they're being too aggressive, which leads into grab, or at least does 11% on hit.

Speaking of damage, what reward does Zelda get off of grab? Her pummel is 3% but slow, and her throws are 11%/11%/12%/8%, which makes them really strong on average. Down throw sort of combos, while back throw qualifies as a kill throw (it's stronger than Mario's in a lot of cases). She can do a good amount off of a grab. I don't think her gameplan necessarily revolves around grabbing but I think the designers really want Zelda to be doing it much much more.

If Zelda had Bowser's run speed she would probably shoot up a few tiers just from being able to land grabs so effectively. Of course, that's probably never going to happen, and if anything they'd probably just buff that grab range even further.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

See, now THIS is what I like to see when talking about Zelda.
Finally something new and interesting to read.

I agree, with what he said.
Though I wish I could find more recent videos on Ven, does he not enter tourneys or stuff that often.


Edit: Just realised he had his own channel nmed Danial Ven I believe...fascinating. I seriously love his Zelda play, gotta learn as much as I can from him.

 

[TriTails]

Sorry to bring it back up, back you guys are bringing up some ridiculousness.

Who. Said. Anything. About. Making. Low tiers. Top tiers? That's that straw man. I want low tiers to be good. Good=/= top tier. It's also high and mid tier too.

The bolded phrases could mean the same thing. If I'm bringing everyone into top tier land, that's a even platform.

Maybe your quote wasn't meant to be that way, but your post was what made me wrote that.

But the argument still stands nonetheless. Buffing low tiers to high tiers is more work than nerfing the top tiers. Even making them 'good' requires some thoughts behind it. Can't just add 1% to some random moves and call it a day.

But like I said, doing both is better anyway. It's not like you'll have to pick a brush and stick with it for the entire painting.

 

[buzzard]

It is untrue that Zelda does not incur the penalty of a tether grab. She has as much endlag on her grab as Lucas.

 

[Smog Frog]

is sort of the hybrid of a normal/tether grab. it has more range than non tethers, and less endlag than other tethers. also that isnt true, faf for grabs are 38 for standing, 47 on dash grab and 45 on pivot grab. has 46/56/56 respectively. while her fafs are worse on average than non tethers, they do have longer range. it's like the other side of "hybrid" grab.

 

[buzzard]

is sort of the hybrid of a normal/tether grab. it has more range than non tethers, and less endlag than other tethers. also that isnt true, faf for grabs are 38 for standing, 47 on dash grab and 45 on pivot grab. has 46/56/56 respectively. while her fafs are worse on average than non tethers, they do have longer range. it's like the other side of "hybrid" grab.

The last active frame for Lucas' standing grab is 19, 46 - 19 = 27 frames of endlag.
Zelda's last active frame for standing grab is 11, 38 - 11 = 27 frames.

The window in which you can punish her grab is the same as a tether grab even if it's the fastest of tethers.

Lucas has a way better grab game than Zelda: longer duration, longer reach, better combos, two kill throws with waaaaaaay more power than Zelda's single "kill throw" (and it can barely be called that), the only thing in Zelda's favor is two frames of startup advantage. But Lucas' is clearly better overall.

Zelda having as much endlag as she has or not having a reward as good is not properly balanced IMO.

 

[Nobie]

The last active frame for Lucas' standing grab is 19, 46 - 19 = 27 frames of endlag.
Zelda's last active frame for standing grab is 11, 38 - 11 = 27 frames.

The window in which you can punish her grab is the same as a tether grab even if it's the fastest of tethers.

Lucas has a way better grab game than Zelda: longer duration, longer reach, better combos, two kill throws with waaaaaaay more power than Zelda's single "kill throw" (and it can barely be called that), the only thing in Zelda's favor is two frames of startup advantage. But Lucas' is clearly better overall.

Zelda having as much endlag as she has or not having a reward as good is not properly balanced IMO.

This isn't an argument over whether Lucas has a superior grab. He very well might. However, being able to finish more quickly in general, a whole 8 frames faster can be a big deal.

Also, as mentioned Lucas has the safest tether in the game. Compare that to, say, Link's recovery time of 44 FRAMES (on a 62 frame grab) and things look a lot different.

 

[buzzard]

This isn't an argument over whether Lucas has a superior grab. He very well might. However, being able to finish more quickly in general, a whole 8 frames faster can be a big deal.

Also, as mentioned Lucas has the safest tether in the game. Compare that to, say, Link's recovery time of 44 FRAMES (on a 62 frame grab) and things look a lot different.

There's no 8 frame difference, that's what I explained in my previous post, they have the exact same endlag. You have to substract the last active frame of the move (19) from the FAF to calculate the amount of frames it takes to act again.

Lucas 46 - 19 = 27
Zelda 38 - 11 = 27

You have as much time to punish Zelda whiffing as you have with Lucas.

Don't forget that Lucas' grab is actually functional for 8 frames (from 12 to 19) while Zelda's only works during 2 frames (10 & 11)

 

[Nobie]

There's no 8 frame difference, that's what I explained in my previous post, they have the exact same endlag. You have to substract the last active frame of the move (19) from the FAF to calculate the amount of frames it takes to act again.

Lucas 46 - 19 = 27
Zelda 38 - 11 = 27

You have as much time to punish Zelda whiffing as you have with Lucas.

Don't forget that Lucas' grab is actually functional for 8 frames (from 12 to 19) while Zelda's only works during 2 frames (10 & 11)

I meant the total time the move takes to start up and finish. C'monnnn

 

[buzzard]

I meant the total time the move takes to start up and finish. C'monnnn

The only case in which those extra active frames might hurt Lucas is if his opponent was already avoiding the move before/while Lucas used his grab but if we are talking about a case in which Zelda or Lucas use their grab, and then the opponent waits for the move to finish so he can punish it, the timeframe to do so is exactly the same.