Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BunbUn129]

Wouldn't Rosalina be one of the clear cut top tiers? She's definitely top tier IMO. Like around #2. I personally would put WFT (among like the totally not unviable but likely a bit too weak for actual high tier) placement. But you really did bring up a good point but distinguishing the top tiers from the bottom tiers. I'll be sure to implement that work into my own created tier list.

Cloud is a bad MU for Rosa, and his popularity isn't a good thing for her. He simply doesn't give a **** about Luma, and since Rosa's gameplan revolves around zoning, she's at an inherent setback as Cloud can just camp for limit and force her to approach.

The Meta Knight-Rosa MU is just as bad as it was pre-patch, if not even slightly worse with fair's increased safety. Meta Knight's moveset is tailored to get rid of Luma: f tilt, fair, strong nair, dash attack, and even Drill Rush of all moves. Once Luma is out of the way, Rosa has to contend with getting laddered by MK, since she dies before going into her tumble animation. The lack of a hitbox on her recovery is another weakness, as her low weight doesn't spell any good against MK's bair. Furthermore, Meta Knight's disadvantage state can allow him to get out of her uair juggles much better than most others. This is easily one of most one-sided MU's between two top tiers (assuming 1-15 is top).

Edit: ninja'd.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi shouldn't even be a consideration for high tier. Too many bad MUs, and his results have all but fallen off a cliff. He's below the Ike/Pit group.

While I do agree Luigi is not high tier, I wouldn't say he is doing super badly.

Mr. CC went toe to toe with VoiD's Sheik before the nerfs in a set (And probably a few other times IIRC). F-air and needles were a pain for Luigi back then. And both got nerfed.

Didn't J. Miller got Top 3 in a regional?

Mr. CC had also topped Top 32 in major tourneys before 1.1.5. (25th IIRC)

Not gonna argue about his bad MUs tho. He has plenty. But a lot of those are rare in actual tourneys and none of them are actually 'ban this ****' type of MU. His problem actually lies in lack of representation. We only have Mr. CC who is doing serious work with him in major tourneys. The rest all don't travel.

Also, his results were nothing to brag about after APEX (After the hype ended). Just throwing that out because I practically see NOBODY but Mr. CC actually placing afterwards. So his results didn't exactly fall off a cliff, more like his results were lacking to begin with.

 

[BunbUn129]

Luigi isn't high tier because he's bad or anything, it's just that a whole lot of others have a stronger claim.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

Luigi shouldn't even be a consideration for high tier. Too many bad MUs, and his results have all but fallen off a cliff. He's below the Ike/Pit group.

Falco's placement among the good-but-not-viables is kinda random. Though I happen to agree with it. DK seems strangely low, though again I can see the reasoning.

Kaiduru Zeta Rosalina has some really bad MUs actually. MK looks like a borderline hard counter, and Cloud is bad as well (like Marth he can swat Luma away easily/hit Rosa through Luma, but unlike Marth he's safe while doing it). Whilst she's good, she definitely struggles to get past good players of those two (one of which is extremely common) in tourney.

Cloud is a bad MU for Rosa, and his popularity isn't a good thing for her. He simply doesn't give a **** about Luma, and since Rosa's gameplan revolves around zoning, she's at an inherent setback as Cloud can just camp for limit and force her to approach.

The Meta Knight-Rosa MU is just as bad as it was pre-patch, if not even slightly worse with fair's increased safety. Meta Knight's moveset is tailored to get rid of Luma: f tilt, fair, strong nair, dash attack, and even Drill Rush of all moves. Once Luma is out of the way, Rosa has to contend with getting laddered by MK, since she dies before going into her tumble animation. The lack of a hitbox on her recovery is another weakness, as her low weight doesn't spell any good against MK's bair. Furthermore, Meta Knight's disadvantage state can allow him to get out of her uair juggles much better than most others. This is easily one of most one-sided MU's between two top tiers (assuming 1-15 is top).

Edit: ninja'd.

Well I guess I was wrong. I really thought that Rosalina outplaced Cloud. I mean sure she has her bad MUs with Cloud and MK but that doesn't necessarily mean she's not top tier. Rosalina other than Cloud,MK,Pika,ZSS,Yoshi and supposedly Captain Falcon. She doesn't lose MUs but thanks for explaining that. I'll probably have like Bayo then Cloud then ZSS then Diddy then Rosa for top 5. Would that be good?

 

[BunbUn129]

Well I guess I was wrong. I really thought that Rosalina outplaced Cloud. I mean sure she has her bad MUs with Cloud and MK but that doesn't necessarily mean she's not top tier. Rosalina other than Cloud,MK,Pika,ZSS,Yoshi and supposedly Captain Falcon. She doesn't lose MUs but thanks for explaining that. I'll probably have like Bayo then Cloud then ZSS then Diddy then Rosa for top 5. Would that be good?

I mean, it all comes down to what you consider "top?" Top 3 like the 4BR? Top 5? Top 10? Or top 15 like Zero and I myself (especially since Sheik isn't gatekeeping 90% of the cast anymore)? With two really bad MU's, one being vs a highly popular pick, Rosa probably isn't top 3, and IMO it would be Bayo, Cloud, and Sheik, though Rosa is definitely top 5.

Or, you could just go by the definition of top tier: the characters who can always reach top spots in tournaments, with any flaws being made up for by their great strengths, and Rosa fits here.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Anyway, I think an issue with Smash 4 tier lists is that the gap between high tiers is increasingly small. Diddy Kong and Sheik are still leagues above Zelda and Jigglypuff, but when, say, a Marth or Wario or Mega Man beats a top tier, no-one's really shocked. Matchups aren't insurmountable for the most part.

So what this means is that a main of a character like Bowser or Link or Falco sees a tier list that puts them in mid-low or low and goes "That's not right! My main is too good to be that low!". And hell, they might indeed be viable. But a tier list rates characters in comparison to each other, not as to how good they are against some impossible objective standard. In other words, as has been said, someone has to be low tier, no matter how well-balanced the game is, because that's how distributions work. But the difference between a Smash 4 high and low tier can be much, much less than the same in Brawl, and you won't see that reflected in standard tier lists.

On this note, I want to ask a stupid question that I keep asking myself and others every once in a while:

Do we need a tier list?

And this isn't some hipster dissuasive question concerning the 'every character is good' part of it. I don't doubt some characters are better than others (Cloud, Bayo), but I'm really concerned more-so about how we present this information than the information itself.

In its current, or at least prevalent form, the tier list is a one-dimensional list broken up into groups. Someone is at the top, someone is at the bottom, everyone is lined up in-between. But what purpose does this really serve, especially with Smash 4's very close gap between characters?

Wouldn't it be better to inject a second dimension to the general idea of a 'tier list', to better provoke thought about characters than simply "mine is better than yours"? One I've seen before is something simple like "ease of use vs reward", where our current tier list hierarchy is already sort of a mix of the two. ie Zelda and Samus are low because their difficulty to learn outweighs the reward they give (or so I'm led to believe).

I mean, the question that has always nagged my mind isn't dismissive of the tier list, but rather "What purpose does this serve?", and "is there a better way to do it?"

Is the tier list for novices to decide which character they want to use? For professionals to determine when they should drop or pick-up a character? Is the tier list meant to be an ego stroke or challenge?

And regardless of these questions, is there not more pressing questions like "okay, but on which stages?" or "okay, but against whom?" or "okay, but with what playstyle?"

 

[teddystalin]

On this note, I want to ask a stupid question that I keep asking myself and others every once in a while:

Do we need a tier list?

And this isn't some hipster dissuasive question concerning the 'every character is good' part of it. I don't doubt some characters are better than others (Cloud, Bayo), but I'm really concerned more-so about how we present this information than the information itself.

In its current, or at least prevalent form, the tier list is a one-dimensional list broken up into groups. Someone is at the top, someone is at the bottom, everyone is lined up in-between. But what purpose does this really serve, especially with Smash 4's very close gap between characters?

Wouldn't it be better to inject a second dimension to the general idea of a 'tier list', to better provoke thought about characters than simply "mine is better than yours"? One I've seen before is something simple like "ease of use vs reward", where our current tier list hierarchy is already sort of a mix of the two. ie Zelda and Samus are low because their difficulty to learn outweighs the reward they give (or so I'm led to believe).

I mean, the question that has always nagged my mind isn't dismissive of the tier list, but rather "What purpose does this serve?", and "is there a better way to do it?"

Is the tier list for novices to decide which character they want to use? For professionals to determine when they should drop or pick-up a character? Is the tier list meant to be an ego stroke or challenge?

And regardless of these questions, is there not more pressing questions like "okay, but on which stages?" or "okay, but against whom?" or "okay, but with what playstyle?"

Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.

• Tier List Meta Discussion
  • "Do tiers exist?"
  • "How important are tiers compared to player skill?"
  • "How should tier lists be constructed and expressed?"
  • "What do tier labels really mean?"
  • "What is the point of tier lists?"

It provides a rough outline of the current meta, judging characters on how hard their mains need to work/how lucky they need to be to get results. And we should leave it at that.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Dk has the results he has because if you dont play the mu right you get donged, hard. And because he is scary as ****. Think Gheb placed him too low what with the peers he got. But hes easy to overrate. Look at Ally vs Larry to ser the difference between the mu played wrong and the mu played right. Its a big difference. He goes from being a crazy train of **** to being a neutered helpless plaything.

 

[GeneralLedge]

It provides a rough outline of the current meta, judging characters on how hard their mains need to work/how lucky they need to be to get results. And we should leave it at that.

My concern is less 'what it is' and more 'what it does to help', and 'can it be improved'.

If all it is is a judgement/hand-of-god observation, then alright. Frame it and put it on a wall. I'm just concerned about the analysis therein.

 

[sedrf]

http://i.imgur.com/e3GvBIB.png

Translation:

"From now on, the Bolshoi Pobeda Smash tournament hosted on April 16th will have the character Bayonetta banned.

She's too strong compared to other characters. And that would be fine, as it was with 1.1.4 Sheik, but Bayonetta, unlike Sheik, is way too easy to play as. Our scene has no good players, really, and letting such a character be played in our region would make every match into a duel between Bayonetta and Bayonetta.

For example, our best player that goes by the names Dee and JimJamFlimFlam(he said it's not his name or something, I don't remember why), since the release of Bayonetta has won 2 of our tournaments, and before that he couldn't even get into Top 8.

That's why, because of her toxic nature and 0-death combo, Bayonetta is banned starting from April 16th."

TLDR: bayonetta banned from major russian tournament
This fandom I swear to god

 

[Radical Larry]

It provides a rough outline of the current meta, judging characters on how hard their mains need to work/how lucky they need to be to get results. And we should leave it at that.

Spoiler: Analyzing the Sciences of a Tier List Summary

But you need to apply the sciences to how a tier list affects up and coming competitive players. Say if you have two medicines, correct? One of them is Ibuprofen and one is Tylenol, both are pain relievers, and it seems as if both are viable. Now think of an entire chart of medicine that does the same thing, you'll get a tier list where both medicine brands are often either high tier or top tier, thus making consumers want to buy them in the stead of other equally as viable medicines.

Now if you apply the tier list in this perspective, many people are going to choose the high tier or top tier characters and disregard any low or bottom tier characters, and what this does as a result is create tournaments that end with rather boring diversities of characters rather than tournaments with a high enough cast. Even if said tier list provides this outline of a meta, you also have to think of the sciences that are in the entire tier list as a whole. If we have a tier list for the following:

Would people rather play Vega or Zangief in Street Fighter IV?
Would people rather play with the MTAR-X or the Executioner in Call of Duty: Black Ops 2?
Would people rather play with the Nekroz deck or the Zombie deck in Yu-Gi-Oh?
Would people rather play Cloud or Ganondorf in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U?

And this comes from if people look at the tier lists of these games. If they start out, the science behind it concludes that they'll try to utilize the top tiers instead of the lower tiers, and it really does make the game or card game or whatever seem like it's just very restrictive. It eventually leads into characters being unexplored or even characters not even being chosen as a result, ending in the characters being lower than their face value. This happened with Brawl where Meta Knight reigned supreme and Ganondorf was considered the worst (not in Japan), and what happened to Ganondorf? He was rarely ever explored and almost never used in tournaments as a result, all due to people obviously choosing the better character.

What people don't necessarily understand is the science and facts behind running a tier list or a comparison chart and how it affects people. I'm questioning not the tier list itself, but the effects it has to people starting out in the competitive scene. If they are not a devoted fan of the character they love, like me to Link, then they will choose whoever's higher and higher. We've seen this happen in all four games, and it makes one wonder the validity of anything competitive if we even have it, even with the sciences behind it all.

http://i.imgur.com/e3GvBIB.png

TLDR: bayonetta banned from major russian tournament
This fandom I swear to god

Now as for this, please let me just state this; why do you even care? Is it affecting your region? Is Bayonetta banned in your region? If not, then don't worry about it.

 

[Yikarur]

I wish we had a thread like we had in old brawl times (like this: http://smashboards.com/threads/success-and-popularity-of-all-characters.317124/) with an infinite amount of result data.
I enjoyed that a lot.
John12346 should reboot that for Smash 4

 

[Ninety]

Cyrillic Cyrillic 0-death combo. Yeah, that sounds like Bayonetta.

 

[TTTTTsd]

When will people stop pissing at Samus and Palutena? Just curiosity.

When Doc stops being underrated. Have fun waiting.

I'm going to throw out a rather large prediction, I anticipate Luigi's results gradually dropping over time at this rate. I think ppl are gonna see a decline.

 

[wedl!!]

It's not like he really had them in the first place.

 

[Luco]

A tier list is useful to people who want to know how to be most successful on a likelihood basis, and for that reason and that reason alone it should exist, not to mention the ability to present our meta in a concrete, succinct form to the outside world and communities. It's not for character loyalists like us, we only get to ride the rollercoaster and try to have a fun time doing so. And as has been pointed out, this topic is uncomfortable to discuss because it is a red topic, which is why I'm probably sounding short and snappy (sorry!)

I dunno if Luigi will drop that far. His nerfs were mostly to his ability to kill, yes fireball to grab isn't guaranteed but really it's close enough to force reactions that he can take advantage of and his grab followups are still mostly intact with the exception of killing. He was definitely nerfed, and significantly, but I don't know if he's particularly weaker than characters like DK, ROB and friends.

Results are probably his biggest issue but he does well with Mr. CC in the US and J. Miller in EU. I wouldn't be surprised if Randy Savage here in Aus also makes a splash with him at BAM. That'd be cool. Anyway we'll see where all this takes him.

 

[Thinkaman]

DDD, Jigglypuff, Samus, Palutena, and the Miis are underwhelming and have flaws that are impossible to ignore, but are by no means truly bad characters, like what we have traditionally seen in many fighting games (including Smash). Even Zelda, after her sequence of buffs, is a character I don't think you can totally write off.

I played Jigglypuff with modestly good regional placings in Brawl. I know what a bad character is like, what it's like having to scrape together limited options and double down on the unique advantages + yomi to formulate a winning game plan.

The "bottom tier" characters in Smash 4 barely feel like that. They just feel like kinda mediocre characters, rather than out-of-place entrants from some other game.

It's long been time for us to stop scoffing at the weakest characters in the room for this game, because it just results in looking silly. It's super obvious/painful when people make fun of Lucina and Doc imo.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's super obvious/painful when people make fun of Lucina and Doc imo.

The only time I think it's even applicable at this point in time is if you're looking at pre-USmash and buffed Fair Doc.

That Doc sucked, especially on 3DS. Like, legitimately. Vectoring ruined a lot of things for him and even with that gone his forward air used to be weak sauce.

Now he grab confirms and kills chars like ZSS at like 60-70% on Smashville. Fun fact about the Sheik weight nerf: She is now significantly easier to hit with D-Throw > Fair as Doc. Funny.

 

[BunbUn129]

Mew2king on Bayonetta (not too much on banning):

"I think the best possible outcome is to make sure people like Nintendo (their balance team) see this (and all the other places that ban her), so they can just balance patch her. That should be the #1 goal of everybody, in my opinion. Ideal outcome for everybody. Working towards that somehow is what I recommend should happen. That way, no regions will want to ban her, and Bayo mains will be content too probably. She's op, but, also a cool character, in my opinion, and it's better to just patch her than for parts of the smash community to split. Region(s?) in midwest of USA, Spain, Russia I know all ban her currently.

The Like to Dislike ratio on this video (Grand finals of Ryo vs Riot, a prior DK main who just picked up Bayonetta and beat me and Ryo 3-1 in all 3 sets in the top 3 of last MVG weekly Smash Conference) shows how much people overall enjoy how good she currently is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9w_uHgNnms

(I will make more videos in the future, talking about smash things)

That person himself, Riot, thinks the character is way too strong and simple. He said this over the weekend, and he uses her to win. He performs much better now than before when he was DK (obviously, but a big difference also).

Combos/matches like this will happen more as time goes on, due to her toolkit of moves:http://oddshot.tv/shot/hysranai-2016040511543338

By the way, unrelated, but I think 9b has a cloud weakness. I struggle more vs Salem/Riot/Saj's bayonettas, even though 9b is overall better than them. I personally think it's cloud's worst MU or one of his worst. Example:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJQ7HvMv_3w . Another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve8g56aJoDU , Salem (and Saj, who is still learning her) is capable of playing a lot better than that also at his best, as he JV 3 me in 1 friendly before I faced 9b at Shots Fired 2. Salem taught me (and straight up TOLD me directly) that you can death combo even if I DI away/properly, as long as he reads me or reacts fast. Most people do not do that. I wish I saved the replay of the JV 3 (was actually 2 stock 2% but he took magnifier damage). It was from 2 ground launchers from neutral stance. Outplayed 2 times in neutral in that game in total, from center stage on the ground of smashville.

Up B, Up throw (to UpB), Side B with no kick, SideB kick, aerial SideB upwards, aerial SideB downwards, Down tilt, up tilt, short hop Fair 1, Uair (sometimes), and witch time. If Bayonetta lands any of these 11 moves, she can convert it into a death combo a LOT of the time, as long as she does not mess up the execution. (When you survive, you are often in a very bad position, usually after taking 40-50%). I am told from people to "just smash DI", but it is much easier said than done, especially consistently. Many times there is nothing you can do at all (I say this from experience playing against many bayonetta players).

A change in her upB would help, since all death combos involve this move. Just one idea. She would remain top tier, but become worse."

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

People making fun of low tiers is just plainly annoying. The Johns people pull when they lose. Also the Ganondorf bias train when people immediately discredit him even with results is just plain irritating.

 

[Y2Kay]

My biggest pet peeve with tier list discussions is that people would talk about low and bottom tier characters like they're similar to low tiers and melee and brawl.

Low tiers aren't even the same animal like they where in those games. But use the same language to describe them, you don't give them enough credit.

 

[Das Koopa]

People making fun of low tiers is just plainly annoying. The Johns people pull when they lose. Also the Ganondorf bias train when people immediately discredit him even with results is just plain irritating.

ganondorf doesn't have results lol

Discrediting a character for being bad isn't the same as "making fun" of a character. People tend to cheer for low tier heroes, but there's a reason that they're few and far between: Low tiers are low tiers for a reason. I think the Smash 4 community is unwilling to accept that some characters are very plainly bad.

 

[John12346]

John12346 should reboot that for Smash 4

O_O oh dear lord not again

Although I will admit that all of my work on the topic DID help me to gain a deep enough understanding of Excel to confidently put it as an intermediate level skill on my resume, which was pretty sweet.

 

[BunbUn129]

ganondorf doesn't have results lol

Discrediting a character for being bad isn't the same as "making fun" of a character. People tend to cheer for low tier heroes, but there's a reason that they're few and far between: Low tiers are low tiers for a reason. I think the Smash 4 community is unwilling to accept that some characters are very plainly bad.

This relates to how a sizeable portion of the community were (and still are) afraid to say an MU was 80-20 or 90-10--we were going along with "Smash 4 is more balanced than Melee and Brawl so we can't have anything more than 75-25," when Meta Knight's Sheik MU was arguably 80-20, and the Rosa MK MU is arguably 80-20 still. So if one top tier hard counters another, then I find it hilarious to see someone look afraid to admit that Smash 4 does have a fair share of one-sided MU's. And then you had pre-nerf Sheik who hard-countered more than half the cast.

And doesn't Ganondorf have results with Ganon the Beast and a few others I forgot?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ugh.....even though it's pretty.....meaningless to talk about characters you don't even play or at least have a little knowledge about, I see why, I mean would anyone really want to play near 60 characters in a game to actually understand their Fundementals and potential they have and such? That's.....really really time consuming, some characters you can't learn in a day...or maybe even a week.

I feel like it's possibly more important to play a character then to have those small things you know about them you know?
IIRC, some mains state that he is underrated and still has a lot of potential, well they could be right, they at least play the character long enough to realize, "hey, this character isn't that bad, what are those people talking about?"

This can be applied to a lot of other characters like, etc.

It's really hard to judge a character that you don't play,
main bias is a thing, we all know that, but so is total lack of knowledge of a character.....which is ignorance.

I may be wrong, and hey, that's fine, but this is what I feel.
You can have an idea of how a character fares in competitive play and such, but you should try to get as much knowledge of the character, obviously many don't want to play a character just to learn about them, but if your not all to sure about some things about them, then you can get some information by asking the mains of that character.

You really don't know as much as you sometimes think you know.

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

ganondorf doesn't have results lol

http://smash4u.net/4br-tier-list-ganondorf-still-king-of-bottom-tier/ Also Adom got 33rd at Beast 6 with Solo Ganon, and he could have gone farther. Ray Kalm is still pulling work, Ganon the Beast as shown, etc. This is what I mean when people talk trash about Ganon.

Like seriously, come on. Stop discrediting players and their characters, especially when they are doing good. I feel pretty confident that there are no 70-30 or 100-0 MU's in this game. Worst I could say would 65-35. Most characters have a good shot against each other. This game isn't perfect, but it's pretty close for the most part to balanced.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Like seriously, come on. Stop discrediting players and their characters, especially when they are doing good. I feel pretty confident that there are no 70-30 or 100-0 MU's in this game. Worst I could say would 65-35. Most characters have a good shot against each other. This game isn't perfect, but it's pretty close for the most part to balanced.

There are 70-30 MUs in this game lol.

I however do not believe there exist a notable amount of 8-2 or higher MUs, if any. Dunno, there could be, but from what I know an 8-2 MU to be from personal experience in FGC terms and general experience, it fails to exist as of now. It was around pre-1.1.5 though, Sheik vs. MK and probably Bayo vs. Ganon were both pretty much that until the patch changes rolled out.

 

[PK Gaming]

DDD, Jigglypuff, Samus, Palutena, and the Miis are underwhelming and have flaws that are impossible to ignore, but are by no means truly bad characters, like what we have traditionally seen in many fighting games (including Smash). Even Zelda, after her sequence of buffs, is a character I don't think you can totally write off.

I played Jigglypuff with modestly good regional placings in Brawl. I know what a bad character is like, what it's like having to scrape together limited options and double down on the unique advantages + yomi to formulate a winning game plan.

The "bottom tier" characters in Smash 4 barely feel like that. They just feel like kinda mediocre characters, rather than out-of-place entrants from some other game.

It's long been time for us to stop scoffing at the weakest characters in the room for this game, because it just results in looking silly. It's super obvious/painful when people make fun of Lucina and Doc imo.

Well said. You can plainly see this in practice when Prince Ramen managed to take M2K to game 5 with his Palutena.

I usually despise the "there are no truly bad characters in X" rhetoric because it's usually a nonsensical thought terminating phrase, but I think it actually applies in Smash 4. The game has surprisingly solid character balance, and it'll get even better when Bayonetta (predictably) receives adjustments.

 

[Deleted member]

Well said. You can plainly see this in practice when Prince Ramen managed to take M2K to game 5 with his Palutena.

I usually despise the "there are no truly bad characters in X" rhetoric because it's usually a nonsensical thought terminating phrase, but I think it actually applies in Smash 4. The game has surprisingly solid character balance, and it'll get even better when Bayonetta (predictably) receives adjustments.

That, and we can also mention Purple Guy getting 9th at a decently sized FL regional (Come to Papa) using mainly . He also 2-0'd Ryo and got him into Losers.

Despite how poorly regarded some characters are in this game, they most definitely have results or upsets to their claim.

 

[Das Koopa]

GanontheBeast is currently #2 in Minnesota - okay, fair enough. But then, you have to ask, "Is Minnesota even a noteworthy region? Why hasn't GanontheBeast flown out to a major and shown how dangerous Ganondorf is?"

Well, perhaps he can't afford to, or circumstances prevent him from doing so - so we can just look at the power rankings from other players in the region and see how they do to extrapolate results. Most in the higher power rankings of the region don't seem to travel much, so the best I can find is that Triple R got 512th at Genesis 3 and 33rd at TBH5. Not exactly much to indicate that Minnesota is some secretly amazing region that's highly representative of what the meta can be.

Hence, it's hard to take the whole "king of low tier" thing seriously when other perceived low tiers have done better in more noteworthy regions and in more noteworthy tournaments. This isn't meant to be an attack on the Minnesota region or its players, but like, it's clearly not this secret high tier region.

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

GanontheBeast is currently #2 in Minnesota - okay, fair enough. But then, you have to ask, "Is Minnesota even a noteworthy region? Why hasn't GanontheBeast flown out to a major and shown how dangerous Ganondorf is?"

Well, perhaps he can't afford to, or circumstances prevent him from doing so - so we can just look at the power rankings from other players in the region and see how they do to extrapolate results. Most in the higher power rankings of the region don't seem to travel much, so the best I can find is that Triple R got 512th at Genesis 3 and 33rd at TBH5. Not exactly much to indicate that Minnesota is some secretly amazing region that's highly representative of what the meta can be.

Hence, it's hard to take the whole "king of low tier" thing seriously when other perceived low tiers have done better in more noteworthy regions and in more noteworthy tournaments. This isn't meant to be an attack on the Minnesota region or its players, but like, it's clearly not this secret high tier region.

To be fair, 1. You ignored that Adom got 33rd at a National with solo Ganon. 2. You're actually right on the fact that most Ganon's don't go to anything because lack of money and time.

 

[Das Koopa]

To be fair, 1. You ignored that Adom got 33rd at a National with solo Ganon.

this is probably the most impressive result, but it's not as if BEAST 6 was a supermajor. It's comparable to something like FOW Saga where there's regional talent plus a few "big time" players attending that by a foregone conclusion will comprise most of the top 8 barring huge upsets

 

[trash?]

(apologies to mods if this is too overall and vague, but it's good general advice when talking about this stuff)

I mean, I could be pretty threatening with a stick if I knew how to make it work. sharpen it up, give it some support, and you have something that could feasibly maim

except I'm still using a stick, and everyone else currently attempting to kill me is running around with claymores and metal bats. considering how I'm using this stick, I might as well just get a spear and accomplish the same thing more efficiently.

this is the actual point when talking about a tier list for character choices; you intend to win (because if you don't, why do you care about how good someone is at winning?), but you also don't want to force yourself into a character you have no comfort in using, so you want to make the best compromise that ensures you can still easily handle your worst MUs, but you can comfortably use to your best potential. it helps that good characters tend to easily fit into your own personal playstyle, which is why you get a good number of sheik players who all play differently compared to that one mid-tier style that never really changes

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

this is probably the most impressive result, but it's not as if BEAST 6 was a supermajor. It's comparable to something like FOW Saga where there's regional talent plus a few "big time" players attending that by a foregone conclusion will comprise most of the top 8 barring huge upsets

Sigh, fine. But, don't just spout Ganon has no results and he's not that bad of a character. He's not top tier or anything, but he's decent threat. Like I said characters in this game are at least okay and can do okay/well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Dude I definitely agree! Like my friend put WFT at bottom 15 which doesn't make a lot of sense since our positives outweigh our negatives I'd say.

I agree. She's perpetually underrated. If I remember correctly, there were three Wii Fits in top 64 at last EVO and this was before her buffs.She's not exactly walking away with high level tournaments left and right but Wii Fit's in top 16/32 in big tournaments are not that unusual, despite the fact that she's still one of the more unpopular characters in the game. Overall, she's pretty balanced and, like Mario, Fox, and Diddy, this offers more creative liberties with her playstyle. She also fulfills niches that have become more relevant as time has gone on: the ability to heal herself and basically turn on rage during anytime during a match. Like we talk about in our previous posts, she doesn't have a lot of abysmal matchups and most that could be described as "bad" usually have to do with the ever present risk of sun salutation/header being reflected. This is why I think, for example, Villager is practically even as long as you're not firing sun salutations half way across the stage. If anything, I feel like the character is held back more by a lack of representation but, even then, she's still doing surprisingly good despite this.

 

[Dinoman96]

Evo had customs on though. A lot of people said that WFT was trash without them before her buffs.

 

[twistacles]

You can't say ganon has 'no results' when there's ganons in a ton of different region's PRs. Vex & GTB dominated their region with ganon, Opana is starting to make waves in NY, Ray Kalm does well in a very tough region, Adom got 33rd at Beast, etc.

 

[Trifroze]

Palutena is one of the cases where moderate mobility buffs would create a large difference, mainly because of dthrow to uair but obviously for general offense/evasiveness and for chaining other aerials into each other as well.

I'd be surprised if she doesn't get the Ike/Mewtwo treatment eventually considering how slow and laggy all her tilts and smashes are for example, how her specials aren't the most functional ones in the cast and how she hasn't been doing well on higher level either. Nothing about her moveset shouts "abusive" and whatever database the team uses for balance changes is probably in line with that thought.

They have been buffing her fair without touching her smashes, which might be foreshadowing at least the Ike treatment, although she'd probably benefit more from the Mewtwo one.

 

[Nobie]

There have to be SOME polarized matchups in a game where Little Mac exists, but to what extent they're polarized often feels like semantics.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Evo had customs on though. A lot of people said that WFT was trash without them before her buffs.

Even with customs, she had a lot of flaws like the fact that her grab was all too easy to whiff and her kill options were atrocious. Even then, the outcome of the tournament showed that customs didn't really have that big of an impact overall.

My biggest pet peeve with tier list discussions is that people would talk about low and bottom tier characters like they're similar to low tiers and melee and brawl.

Low tiers aren't even the same animal like they where in those games. But use the same language to describe them, you don't give them enough credit.

Which is definitely true because the low/bottom tier characters in Melee and Brawl were dysfunctional, hell, even the lower end of the mid tiers were. This game doesn't really have anything that's comparable to Melee Kirby or Brawl Ganondorf. There are characters that are underwhelming or undertuned but there's nobody that feels totally and completely incompetent in every given situation. In this game, mid tiers ranking is far from unusual when, in Brawl, a mid tier ranking was practically a cause for celebration. Simply put, this game is a lot more balanced and some people would argue that nearly half of the cast can reasonably rank, which was absolutely unheard of in Melee and Brawl.

Like seriously, come on. Stop discrediting players and their characters, especially when they are doing good. I feel pretty confident that there are no 70-30 or 100-0 MU's in this game. Worst I could say would 65-35. Most characters have a good shot against each other. This game isn't perfect, but it's pretty close for the most part to balanced.

70-30 definitely exists and Bayo herself could probably count the number she has on at least one hand. Make no mistake, this game still has blow out match ups.