Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[AxelVDP]

Alright so seeing as people discussed it here I've done some testing on Bayonetta specials:

dABK KO percents (No DI):

Sheik: 378%
Palutena: 350%
Diddy: 379%

I picked these three characters because Sheik's fall speed = Diddy and Diddy's gravity = Palutena. Based off these facts, we can deduce that Bayo's specials DO ignore gravity, but do NOT ignore fall speed.

I also took the liberty of checking grounded side B which is the same as Up B and aerial Side B.

Seems like the idea behind this was to keep every combo option of Bayo's consistent.

this is interesting and probably true, BUT I would like to note another important factor in kill%s: a character's hurtbox
the way a character spins while in tumble can "greatly" change the %s they die at (because blastzone collision detection stuff)
I know this because way back when Sheik used to weigh like Zelda I tested some things (using Mario's uthrow (90° 70bkb 72kbg) at various heights)
Sheik (85 weight, 1.75 FallSpeed, 0.150 gravity) used to die earlier than Zelda (85 weight, 1.35 FallSpeed, 0.071 gravity) even tho she had a greater fallspeed (gravity could also play a role in this scenario), while also dieing earlier than Falco (82 weight, 1.8 FallSpeed, 0.13 gravity) and MUCH earlier than LittleMac (82 weight, 1.8 FallSpeed, 0.08 gravity)

edit: it was something like Sheik < Zelda < Falco << LittleMac

 

[KuroganeHammer]

this is interesting and probably true, BUT I would like to note another important factor in kill%s: a character's hurtbox
the way a character spins while in tumble can "greatly" change the %s they die at (because blastzone collision detection stuff)
I know this because way back when Sheik used to weigh like Zelda I tested some things (using Mario's uthrow (90° 70bkb 72kbg) at various heights)
Sheik (85 weight, 1.75 FallSpeed, 0.150 gravity) used to die earlier than Zelda (85 weight, 1.35 FallSpeed, 0.071 gravity) even tho she had a greater fallspeed (gravity could also play a role in this scenario), while also dieing earlier than Falco (82 weight, 1.8 FallSpeed, 0.13 gravity) and MUCH earlier than LittleMac (82 weight, 1.8 FallSpeed, 0.08 gravity)

edit: it was something like Sheik < Zelda < Falco << LittleMac

Character hurtbox likely is the reason Sheik dies 1% later than Diddy.

Also yes gravity plays a part in vertical knockback which is why Bayo ignoring it is important.

 

[Trifroze]

A good way to figure out which characters work well in low-mid level Smash and which ones don't without theorizing or immersing yourself in such communities are community tier lists outside of places like 4BR and SHI-G. Looking at Eventhubs in particular here; Ryu, Pikachu, Yoshi, Falcon, Corrin, Falco(probably because lasers and side b), Roy, Charizard and Shulk really stick out, being a lot higher compared to their placements in tier lists made with (informed) high level play in mind, while Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Diddy, MK, Robin and some others are surprisingly low. No doubt popular opinion usually molded by top players and twitch chats affects these voting based lists as well, but certain trends that seem questionable from a higher level perspective are very noticeable and it's clearly because in lower level play some strengths can be abused and some weaknesses are pretty much never exploited. No doubt FFAs follow a similar path because yes, there truly are (UUUOOO) different levels of it.

 

[Shaya]

there truly are (UUUOOO) different levels of it.

That's a reasonable thing to suggest - that the lower [or largest array of] levels of play would be primarily seen in FFAs. And no doubt a lot of the game's design (incl characters) would heavily consider the capabilities and dynamics that exist for anything from mild to maximum carnage.

---

Apparently Ally is in Mexico this weekend? He may get to play Leo?

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

I have a question. What do you think about Wii Fit Trainer? Just wanted to get some opinions about her. I think she's a strong contender. She's got a lot of positives. Such as double hitboxes, amazing edge game, amazing projectiles and a sufficient recovery. However, she can struggle with offensive characters such as Fox or Mario. I really don't think she's low mid or high tier. I'd give her high mid. Since also, she has a decent MU spread. Most of her MUs are even with some top/high tiers such as Sonic and ZSS. However she struggles with like Mario,Fox,Ness,Cloud etc. Like her worst(it really depends from Wii Fit Trainer player to Wii Fit Trainer player) is Kirby. Which is 70:30ish. It really deems her not solo viable. She has decent kill power, sure not amazing like Cloud but it's good enough.

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo isn't going to the tournament ally is at, he's going to the one in mexico city. They'll hopefully play at smash factor this year.

 

[aεrgiα]

Actually, Lucas' grab probably isn't the most serious issue. The active frames on the grab are so good that it can be used to punish most landings and whiffs with relative ease, it's pretty rare that your grab war is going to lose to a faster move because ideally you should be spacing it. But that does lead to a problem which is his OoS game is poor. SH Nair doesn't AC and can get punished before he can do other things. FH Dair is usually decent but obviously not particularly quick and semi-punishable.

PK Fire and Zair are great but PS all of them and Lucas eventually has to bite the bullet and choose something meaningful, meanwhile most of these options don't convert to anything amazing on his part until he can actually get someone in the air and punish their landing with a grab ---> followups, of which he has guaranteed followups at all percents until PK hoohah, and when that stops working his kill throws are up shortly thereafter. His edge-guarding game using PKT is good but he wants to finish by looping PKT around to hit himself to remain safe. He can also go offstage safely because tether is fantastic and Bair and Dair are usually highly rewarding to land. Meanwhile recovering he can mix up between a longer PKT or tether, both of which are punishable in different ways but he also has a fantastic DJ AD game just like Ness.

Anyway you're probably not going to sit there and read about a character you're not interested in, but what's mostly relevant is that aside from his OoS game and awkward neutral he has some hectic strong tools. He sports significantly better MUs than Ness against Rosa, Ryu, Sonic, Corrin and probably Luigi.

EL once said he's probably about as good as Ness and I get why he said that. He probably wouldn't say it now but I'm gonna pull from Thinkaman and say that Mewtwo came first; Lucas will probably be next to jump tiers if he can actually show that off.

If. Taiheta's doing well but is inconsistent, and NAKAT doesn't always pull him out. Tearbear has pulled him out before, tbh I think a bunch of people have him as a weird pocket kind of like how a bunch of people used to have a Falcon in their arsenal. We just wait and see if that amounts to anything I guess.

Also @The Revolutionary Cafe tbf 90% of characters in this game don't have the overwhelming tools that and have. But yeah.

his recovery is actually way too underlooked imo, its often labeled off as "much better compared to ness" but its not just much better compared to ness, its actually really good in general imo, a couple of things i would add to just tether or long pkt is the fact that he has a stall in down b, which also absorbs energy projectiles, has a hitbox, can be wavebounced to change momentum and can reverse the direction youre facing(letting you discourage edgeguarders with bair or just letting you turn around to tether after youve lost your second jump) and pk fire can also be used to wavebounce and throw a projectile their way(or just throw a projectile their way without the wavebounce) but usually forces you to use pkt so its situational, and then theres also the "ness trick" of using pkt1 to hit anyone sitting on the edge if they are getting too comfortable as for edgeguarding i usually dont find using pkt1 a good option because you basically give them a free get up from the ledge and potentially stage control if you dont hit them, it doesnt really send them at a great angle if you do hit them and usually i find using rising dair or dsmash to cover the ledge to be better options if i want to gimp them(bad recoveries like cloud or stupidly large hitboxes like bayo being the exception ) or just staying on stage and punishing their get up (with the long active frames of his tether for example)

as for grab not being the most serious issue, well it may not be, but in my opioning it ties into most of his issues, i mean you even mentioned one yourself in saying "meanwhile most of these options don't convert to anything amazing on his part until he can actually get someone in the air and punish their landing with a grab" and that right there is exactly why i think its holding him back, his "bad" neutral outside of zair and pk fire wouldnt be as much of an issue if he diddnt have to get them in the air, which he struggles with doing a lot, to get a grab in the first place, when i started writing that reply, i originally didnt even plan on talking about grab that much but the more i thought about the more i felt that grab, while maybe not a serious issue or liability at first glance, really connected with his other, "more serious", issues and basically exacerbates them, if you prefer that way of saying it :/ either way feel free to disagree, i just felt i should elaborate on what i said to get my point across clearer and maybe learn more if you have anything to add or disagree with

 

[Trunks159]

I'd probably say his small specific hitboxes are his largest downside. Fair, uair, dair, nair, etc all have tiny hitboxes.

 

[drakeirving]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JG5U1RKGPww

Mewtwo "infinite", what do you all think? It's basically an loop of the nair to footstool fast fall disable Aba pulled off at Pound.

Re: this and all replies to this, the description says:

-----------------------------------

※ I'm not suggesting that this would work on a human in an actual match
※ Throughout this play I've used pausing so I could input precisely
Concept: A theoretical combo usable as a burst option at 0%, not factoring in the opponent's DI

I don't think this will work on all characters (at the very least Dedede can perfect shield). If you use downB at 0% you can perfect shield the nair so at minimum deal 10% before the downB.

[notes on stage position]

As for countermeasures, the easiest is to SDI in the direction that Mewtwo is moving (to fall out the opposite direction Mewtwo is facing).​

-----------------------------------

Please correct me if this translation isn't entirely accurate, but the point is that the author isn't even claiming it'll work on a human opponent with factors like SDI and combo DI in general, never mind the input barrier.

 

[Ghostbone]

So since everyone loves to exaggerate Bayo's damage I took a look at this set between Nasubi and 9B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiD6TYXyBw

I calculated the average damage that 9B did from witch twist which is her trademark combo starter. I was also generous in that I excluded scenarios where the opponent was off-stage and thus couldn't be safely chased, and a couple of things that technically weren't true (could be air-dodged/jumped out of)

The average damage was 13.92, or about 14%.

And the highest damage was a 28% combo (that resulted in death)

Sure you can add a d-tilt and fair 1 to that, but when people talk about bayo as if she's consistently getting 30% combos they're actually just spewing nonsense.

Edit: I even extended this to consider any combo involving her specials (including the damage before the specials) and ignored up-b's where he missed the follow-up, the average damage still only came out to be 19.92.
So at most you can claim a generic bayo combo does about 20%.

 

[Luco]

I'd probably say his small specific hitboxes are his largest downside. Fair, uair, dair, nair, etc all have tiny hitboxes.

Actually Fair's hitbox is MASSIVE and ridiculously disjointed. Uair also has a deceptive hitbox - the reason people think its hitbox is tiny is because it has no horizontal range but its vertical range is decent. But yeah I wish he had a small extra hitbox on most of his moves that just did a little bit of damage / KB to give him that extra bit of range on moves he'd like, such as Dair. Nair I just wish the range was increased like M2s, but more realistically AC window on that thing would be sexy.

his recovery is actually way too underlooked imo, its often labeled off as "much better compared to ness" but its not just much better compared to ness, its actually really good in general imo, a couple of things i would add to just tether or long pkt is the fact that he has a stall in down b, which also absorbs energy projectiles, has a hitbox, can be wavebounced to change momentum and can reverse the direction youre facing(letting you discourage edgeguarders with bair or just letting you turn around to tether after youve lost your second jump) and pk fire can also be used to wavebounce and throw a projectile their way(or just throw a projectile their way without the wavebounce) but usually forces you to use pkt so its situational, and then theres also the "ness trick" of using pkt1 to hit anyone sitting on the edge if they are getting too comfortable as for edgeguarding i usually dont find using pkt1 a good option because you basically give them a free get up from the ledge and potentially stage control if you dont hit them, it doesnt really send them at a great angle if you do hit them and usually i find using rising dair or dsmash to cover the ledge to be better options if i want to gimp them(bad recoveries like cloud or stupidly large hitboxes like bayo being the exception ) or just staying on stage and punishing their get up (with the long active frames of his tether for example)

as for grab not being the most serious issue, well it may not be, but in my opioning it ties into most of his issues, i mean you even mentioned one yourself in saying "meanwhile most of these options don't convert to anything amazing on his part until he can actually get someone in the air and punish their landing with a grab" and that right there is exactly why i think its holding him back, his "bad" neutral outside of zair and pk fire wouldnt be as much of an issue if he diddnt have to get them in the air, which he struggles with doing a lot, to get a grab in the first place, when i started writing that reply, i originally didnt even plan on talking about grab that much but the more i thought about the more i felt that grab, while maybe not a serious issue or liability at first glance, really connected with his other, "more serious", issues and basically exacerbates them, if you prefer that way of saying it :/ either way feel free to disagree, i just felt i should elaborate on what i said to get my point across clearer and maybe learn more if you have anything to add or disagree with

Stalling is definitelly cool but semi situational, it takes time to FF after that so usually you fake someone out and then have to play the exact same guessing game when trying to land unless they've really committed to trying to catch you mid-air.

What you said about PKT1 edge-guarding is true, except that also applies to going offstage. Lucas goes offstage, whiffs a Bair or something similar and the opponent recovers first and Lucas has lost all stage control. PKT doesn't send people out too far and probably won't gimp people not named Cloud, but the advantage is it's sooooo safe if you loop it around. That being said vs some people Dsmash and rising Dair are definitely the way to go.

Grab is weird and complex. It punishes whiffs and landings so well but it also has its own slew of problems. Having a tether isn't inherently bad (ZSS has a tether that covers 1/3rd FD length on a dash grab and even with its cooldown it's pretty fantastic to have on her), but Lucas lacks a few of the other oppressive tools that ZSS has that allow her to function better in at least 2 of the 3 states of gameplay (flip kick and Nair come to mind here) and as such it's a double-edged sword. Keep in mind that due to his design were Lucas to lose tether grab it would probably also cost him one of his best tools in Zair (which would not only hurt him in neutral but also offstage for obvious reasons) so I feel grab is only a problem in so much as Lucas' other issues make it to be so.

But yeah I mostly agree with what you're saying.

 

[lunaticz0r]

when will the tier list update from 13 to 16? or 17 even?

 

[Ghostbone]

Did the same analysis to their WF set https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYewGYmcLY

On average witch twist did 16% and bayo combos overall did 21%

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So since everyone loves to exaggerate Bayo's damage I took a look at this set between Nasubi and 9B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiD6TYXyBw

I calculated the average damage that 9B did from witch twist which is her trademark combo starter. I was also generous in that I excluded scenarios where the opponent was off-stage and thus couldn't be safely chased, and a couple of things that technically weren't true (could be air-dodged/jumped out of)

The average damage was 13.92, or about 14%.

And the highest damage was a 28% combo (that resulted in death)

Sure you can add a d-tilt and fair 1 to that, but when people talk about bayo as if she's consistently getting 30% combos they're actually just spewing nonsense.

Edit: I even extended this to consider any combo involving her specials (including the damage before the specials) and ignored up-b's where he missed the follow-up, the average damage still only came out to be 19.92.
So at most you can claim a generic bayo combo does about 20%.

Tbh, even if they did 1% it wouldn't matter. People don't care about the damage it does, they care that it has the potential to take stocks really early if they make a mistake.

 

[Pazzo.]

Really, if Bayonetta doesn't get nerfed, it won't be the end of the meta.

She's nowhere near perfect, but her strong advantage and disadvantage will teach players to act more intentionally. Heck, maybe we can get actual edge guarding too.

 

[Jams.]

Ghostbone , I remember when Bayo first came out you thought that she was broken, and wanted to abuse her to demonstrate her imbalance. However, you now have the contrary opinion and are defending Bayonetta and advocating for counterplay. I was wondering what caused this shift in your opinion, since I don't think you've ever addressed it explicitly. Did players in your scene adapt to Bayonetta?

 

[Ghostbone]

Ghostbone , I remember when Bayo first came out you thought that she was broken, and wanted to abuse her to demonstrate her imbalance. However, you now have the contrary opinion and are defending Bayonetta and advocating for counterplay. I was wondering what caused this shift in your opinion, since I don't think you've ever addressed it explicitly. Did players in your scene adapt to Bayonetta?

Nothing to do with me personally lol

Main misconceptions I had at release was Bayo's ability to react to your DI rather than having to predict it. If she could react she'd likely be broken, but currently she has to guess multiple times to actually kill you (and that's only possible at high %s)

Also, it's not like I think it's impossible that bayo's broken, it's just most of the arguments saying she's imbalanced are completely terrible and I'd feel like I would have to call them out no matter which side of the argument I'm actually on. We shouldn't judge a character before actually putting in the lab time to develop counterplay, and having results show her to be dominating.

On release it was mostly "in a year I'm pretty sure bayo's going to be broken"
I think that's a lot less likely after learning more about the character and some people are already jumping the gun and assuming she's broken based off hypotheticals/what ifs based off of extreme exaggerations about the character's strength, and judging her by standards no other character is held up to.

 

[C0rvus]

That more or less describes my experience with Bayonetta as well. I was going to learn her to expose how broken she is. But I discovered a character who has multiple chances to mess up with flaws that matter and a lacking neutral. People really overrate her still. She's clearly top tier, likely the best in the game, but possibly not. It's okay because despite what people think, she's all but guaranteed to get gutted next patch. If the loud people aren't having fun, then noone can, right?

 

[Yonder]

Zard's bair kills like 5% later than Zelda's lightning kicks and is pretty much impossible to not sweetspot lol

Now that's a horrifying tidbit to know. More range too. Any set ups to bair, Zard mains?

 

[LancerStaff]

Just to clarify, are you saying that Sakurai (aka the Smash dev team as a whole) doesn't care about 1v1 balance? Cuz some of your posts give off that impression.

I'm saying he cares more about how a character plays and feels in FFAs then how balanced they are in 1v1s. Another example is Rosalina. Luma is absurdly powerful in every way and iron walls a lot of characters. Why? To offset that Luma is going to be dead most of the time in FFAs. This also explains why Rosalina's so slippery, so she's not a sitting duck when Luma's not around. Yaknow, instead of being a sitting duck like she should if she was balanced for 1v1s. An easy way to fix this discrepancy is to make it so Luma doesn't die to a random Dash Attack and balance her that way... But either the Smash dev team is a pack of idiots or somebody wanted Rosaluma to function the exact way they do.

LancerStaff
Uhh, maybe because you have close to nothing to justify your opinion FFA > all beyond what people have to justify that multiple ways of playing are considered when balancing the game? It's a lot more obvious to see that the game is balanced for multiple levels of play (i.e. how nearly every game is balanced in this day and age) with different modes of play considered, and while it still is an opinion, it's one that there's a terribly large amount of universal backing in game design and the industry to go behind it (to be fair: I'm lazy and crutch on league of legends a lot, but it's not like people who have studied at a tertiary level detract heavily from those tenants because ... they're near-universally relevant/accepted in modern game design).

Your tone is one of authority on the matter when you have none. You make no concessions in what you state to reflect you are just stating your opinion on something with little more than your stubbornness to justify it.. I would say you're comparable to conspiracy theorists rather than someone with an analysis and perspective (as you make no adjustments from other perspectives) worth considering and this is exactly how people see and react to your posts.

And this isn't just in this context either. How you interact with others when it comes to your opinions (e.g. Pit vs Corrin) comes off the exact same way.
You may just have miscommunication issues. You should consider that possibility rather than get upset at everyone else. You may have a goldmine of ideas that could really help discourse, but you're very far away from expressing it as you are now.

That's quite a turnaround from what you and Viper told me.

This isn't about wether or not the game's balanced for different levels of play, it's about if FFAs take priority over 1v1s. These are two, separate ideas that describe how the game is balanced.

This isn't some conspiracy... People have made only a minimal effort to disprove what I'm saying. I'd change my views if people would say more then the same three things to me.... If it was so blatantly obvious there'd be more then a few ambiguous pieces of evidence supporting that fact. I'm sorry if people get upset because I speak with confidence, but that's more their problem then mine.

I understand I have communication issues, but they don't get better by turning around and running. They get better with practice.

You're making the mistake that all thoughts and ideas are treated equally in discussion. When your opinion is not based on fact, or more specifically in your case, is contradicted by fact, you "opinion" is easily dismissed as willful ignorance.
Stating a wrong idea multiple times does not make it a better idea, it is still, wrong. You should not be surprised by scorn, because that is the natural and indeed the only reply to willful ignorance.

Tell me, where is the contradiction? Why does everything I present mean nothing?

My ideas on the subject are easily accepted in other parts of the Smash community. Only here am I told that I'm a fool... I'm more inclined to think that people's resistance to the notion is because of deeper set issues within this part of the fanbase. It's happened multiple times before, and it'll happen again.

 

[Blobface]

Spoiler

Old set, but Esam does something very interesting here.

When he grabs Cloud by the ledge, rather than using a throw, he simply gets in some pummels and grab releases (pummels prevent air releases IIRC). This puts Cloud in a position where he has to either make an awkward DJ onstage or Up-B. This is particularly useful if he currently has limit, as Up-Bing immediately uses limit, and DJ onstage risks getting knocked offstage without a DJ and again, having to use limit.

 

[arbustopachon]

Now that's a horrifying tidbit to know. More range too. Any set ups to bair, Zard mains?

D-throw pp bair if they di away, thats pretty much it other than baiting airdodges or just beating moves with its disjoint.

You can use it out of a fullhop and have enough time to double jump and do another bair without suffering any landing lag which is neat.
Its also safish on shield provided you sweetspot it and hit it as close to the ground as possible. Sh fastfalled bair is pretty much a safe on shield fsmash if timed correctly. bair is -6 on shieldrop if i'm not mistaken.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If it was so blatantly obvious there'd be more then a few ambiguous pieces of evidence supporting that fact.

Well it's not as if you've been able to present more than a few ambiguous pieces of evidence in your favor either. The only balance change I can think of that strikes me as unambiguously a FFA-based balance change was Ike's FSmash being nerfed from Brawl to Smash 4, but even that move was later buffed a bit so it could more consistently get adequate reward in 1v1s. There's no real way to tell what Sakurai or Bamco are thinking, so I just go with what seems logical. Some balance changes seem clearly oriented towards standard local 1v1 tourneys,(Sheik grab confirms) some are for FG,(Initial Little Mac nerfs) a couple are for doubles,(Pocket/Bucket nerfs) and many I'm just not sure about. So I generally operate under the assumption that most changes are based on 1v1s, either for online or offline play, because the balance changes seem to line up best with Japanese 1v1 tier lists rather than anything else, and I have yet to encounter a convincing counterargument.

 

[Trifroze]

So since everyone loves to exaggerate Bayo's damage I took a look at this set between Nasubi and 9B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiD6TYXyBw

I calculated the average damage that 9B did from witch twist which is her trademark combo starter. I was also generous in that I excluded scenarios where the opponent was off-stage and thus couldn't be safely chased, and a couple of things that technically weren't true (could be air-dodged/jumped out of)

The average damage was 13.92, or about 14%.

And the highest damage was a 28% combo (that resulted in death)

Sure you can add a d-tilt and fair 1 to that, but when people talk about bayo as if she's consistently getting 30% combos they're actually just spewing nonsense.

Edit: I even extended this to consider any combo involving her specials (including the damage before the specials) and ignored up-b's where he missed the follow-up, the average damage still only came out to be 19.92.
So at most you can claim a generic bayo combo does about 20%.

I also looked at the video and the first thing I saw was a 37% death combo. Also what about combos that have anything to do with witch time? I don't think anyone has claimed that combos specifically started by witch twist do 30% minimum, moreso that she has consistent combos where that is the case. You completely skewed the playing field by arbitrarily redefining what counts as a Bayonetta combo and by only looking at this one set. You might as well say that Bayonetta doing 30% per combo is false because back air doesn't combo into anything at XX% and only does 13%.

 

[Ghostbone]

I also looked at the video and the first thing I saw was a 37% death combo. Also what about combos that have anything to do with witch time? I don't think anyone has claimed that combos specifically started by witch twist do 30% minimum, moreso that she has consistent combos where that is the case. You completely skewed the playing field by arbitrarily redefining what counts as a Bayonetta combo and by only looking at this one set. You might as well say that Bayonetta doing 30% per combo is false because back air doesn't combo into anything at XX% and only does 13%.

First combo is completely DI-able to avoid death, you'd know that if you put in lab time rather than jumping to conclusions immediately.

He never landed a witch time (iirc he landed one in the WF set but got measly damage off of it), says a lot about how "imbalanced" the move is. "Witch time" combos aren't actually a thing btw. You get two tilts then do a divekick combo once the slowdown ends. And those can be DI'd down and away or down and in.

She doesn't have consistent combos that do 30%, if you have an example of one, actually present it rather than just claiming it's the case. The whole point of my analysis was to point out her combos aren't consistent. The other person will generally fall out pretty quickly because there's many ways to DI them.

I skewed the playing field? How the **** can you draw that conclusion lol, I literally just analysed all the combos and gave you the average damage output. I obviously didn't include single hits so why are you even trying to bring it up like I did? (though in the witch twist analysis i included some witch twists with failed follow-ups because witch twist follow-ups aren't always guaranteed)

I've looked at two sets, if you want to prove that those two aren't the norm, find other sets where the opposing player knows how to DI and calculate her average damage output yourself.

Edit: It's pretty clear you've drawn your conclusion (that bayo does 30%+ combos consistently across all %s whenever you make a mistake) without actually looking at the evidence, and now that I'm presenting data contrary to your narrative you're trying to move the goal posts.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hello everyone. In the midst of all of this, I'd like to point out that Mario's Nair is an incredible move that nobody talks about when I see Mario talk in this thread, I feel like breaking it down for good measure. Pardon me if it's unwarranted but it's just a tangent I feel like going on about.

Mario's Nair is probably one of the best moves at like, just flat out beating airdodges (especially into the ground or mid-string) alongside being an incredible combo breaker. I remember people touting the active frames on Jigglypuff Nair, and yeah, they are definitely incredible but....Mario's Nair is actually active for longer than that (Puff is F6-30, Mario is F3-29)! That alone is crazy, and it's had me interested in doing stuff like D-Throw > Stuff, SH Nair if I know they're gonna airdodge and it in theory will work, I'm going to try and implement it as I think it has a lot of potential. Another big + is the landing lag, or rather the lack thereof. 10 frames! Man, this move....I'm going to try and implement it as much as I can, I feel like even in its frequency of use now (which is fairly frequent) it's still a bit underused. Move is that good, really. Oh, it also crosses up. Add another thing to the properties of Nair that make it beyond just good.

I usually say Doc wants Mario Nair, not even because Doc's Nair is reverse sex kick, but because Mario Nair has more active frames than it by like 2, and if he had the frame data on Mario's Nair the weak hit would last a hell of a lot less (hah). Doc Nair is kinda like, a dialed down version by a good margin.

 

[|RK|]

Hello everyone. In the midst of all of this, I'd like to point out that Mario's Nair is an incredible move that nobody talks about when I see Mario talk in this thread, I feel like breaking it down for good measure. Pardon me if it's unwarranted but it's just a tangent I feel like going on about.

Mario's Nair is probably one of the best moves at like, just flat out beating airdodges (especially into the ground or mid-string) alongside being an incredible combo breaker. I remember people touting the active frames on Jigglypuff Nair, and yeah, they are definitely incredible but....Mario's Nair is actually active for longer than that (Puff is F6-30, Mario is F3-29)! That alone is crazy, and it's had me interested in doing stuff like D-Throw > Stuff, SH Nair if I know they're gonna airdodge and it in theory will work, I'm going to try and implement it as I think it has a lot of potential. Another big + is the landing lag, or rather the lack thereof. 10 frames! Man, this move....I'm going to try and implement it as much as I can, I feel like even in its frequency of use now (which is fairly frequent) it's still a bit underused. Move is that good, really. Oh, it also crosses up. Add another thing to the properties of Nair that make it beyond just good.

I usually say Doc wants Mario Nair, not even because Doc's Nair is reverse sex kick, but because Mario Nair has more active frames than it by like 2, and if he had the frame data on Mario's Nair the weak hit would last a hell of a lot less (hah). Doc Nair is kinda like, a dialed down version by a good margin.

Nair is one of the best reasons fighting the Mario Bros. as Kirby sucks.

 

[Routa]

TTTTTsd and then you remember that Mii Brawler's deals more damage.

We don't talk about Faf ok?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Now that's a horrifying tidbit to know. More range too. Any set ups to bair, Zard mains?

Dthrow to bair if you read the airdodge, catch them with it edgeguarding off stage. Use it when they try to land on Smashville platform or any platforms for that matter.

There is no good combo set-up into it outside of a potential catch after trying to read them after a Dthrow from what I can tell.

I do recommend every Charizard learns to use bair better, legit one of if not his best move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

TTTTTsd and then you remember that Mii Brawler's deals more damage.

We don't talk about Faf ok?

Brawler Nair does do more dmg but only on the combo breaker bit. Still a relevant point though. The soft hits though (which constitute the airdodge punish) are the same dmg wise. Notable difference is brawler's has 7 more BKB making it better at edgeguarding whereas Mario's soft Nair is good for keeping people close, which is where he wants them.

 

[Routa]

Brawler Nair does do more dmg but only on the combo breaker bit. Still a relevant point though. The soft hits though (which constitute the airdodge punish) are the same dmg wise. Notable difference is brawler's has 7 more BKB making it better at edgeguarding whereas Mario's soft Nair is good for keeping people close, which is where he wants them.

It isn't that great for edgeguarding tho. Faf on Brawler's Nair is bad (56).

Mario

Brawler

 

[TTTTTsd]

It isn't that great for edgeguarding tho. Faf on Brawler's Nair is bad (56).

Assuming you have a DJ left it's pretty plausible as long as you don't fastfall I'd imagine. If they airdodge you can catch it with a single jump and then jump back, I've done it before. It's in theory really great at killing one of my main character's recovery mixups (Cloud Airdodge into Up+B sweetspot) so I'd say it's worth considering.

 

[Routa]

Assuming you have a DJ left it's pretty plausible as long as you don't fastfall I'd imagine. If they airdodge you can catch it with a single jump and then jump back, I've done it before. It's in theory really great at killing one of my main character's recovery mixups (Cloud Airdodge into Up+B sweetspot) so I'd say it's worth considering.

This is very true. But usually it is not worth of the risk in most cases. Usually you are better off throwing Bowling Balls or charging Ultimate Uppercut. It comes down to are you willing to take the risk?

 

[LancerStaff]

Well it's not as if you've been able to present more than a few ambiguous pieces of evidence in your favor either.

So basically I'm not crazy. That's what I'm getting at, guys... My opinion is as justified as yours, regardless of many people are on each side.

I appreciate that you're having an intelligent conversation with me, though I'm sure it's wearing thin on everybody else at this point. If it comes up again I'll address it, or you can bring it up in a PM if you want.

 

[Man Li Gi]

With a heavy heart, I bear news about another region banning Bayonetta. Luckily its a small region of St. Louis. They are a free region and I beat their best Bayonetta. I'm not a good player (in my eyes at least)

https://youtu.be/Wpln9bghGTQ

With smaller regions banning a character so early in this game's life cycle, I'm perplexed at how they would react if they KNEW NO MORE PATCHES ARE COMING AND THEY HAVE TO PUT UP AND SHUT UP TO PLAY THE GAME!

Sorry lost my temper for a sec. Combing through the last 15 or so pages was chore and so strenuous on my body that not even the bodybuilding workouts I've been doing for now 2 years could handle it.

Please, this is the only thread I follow on a regular and it nearly went too south.

 

[Trifroze]

First combo is completely DI-able to avoid death, you'd know that if you put in lab time rather than jumping to conclusions immediately.

He never landed a witch time (iirc he landed one in the WF set but got measly damage off of it), says a lot about how "imbalanced" the move is. "Witch time" combos aren't actually a thing btw. You get two tilts then do a divekick combo once the slowdown ends. And those can be DI'd down and away or down and in.

She doesn't have consistent combos that do 30%, if you have an example of one, actually present it rather than just claiming it's the case. The whole point of my analysis was to point out her combos aren't consistent. The other person will generally fall out pretty quickly because there's many ways to DI them.

I skewed the playing field? How the **** can you draw that conclusion lol, I literally just analysed all the combos and gave you the average damage output. I obviously didn't include single hits so why are you even trying to bring it up like I did? (though in the witch twist analysis i included some witch twists with failed follow-ups because witch twist follow-ups aren't always guaranteed)

I've looked at two sets, if you want to prove that those two aren't the norm, find other sets where the opposing player knows how to DI and calculate her average damage output yourself.

Edit: It's pretty clear you've drawn your conclusion (that bayo does 30%+ combos consistently across all %s whenever you make a mistake) without actually looking at the evidence, and now that I'm presenting data contrary to your narrative you're trying to move the goal posts.

I don't get why you need to be so offensive / defensive about all of this like I'm personally attacking you. If you actually think my claim some pages ago (which I presume you're still referring to) was that Bayonetta always does more than 30%+ damage with any combo then you're free to think in that way, I'd just like to think that it not being the case is obvious enough to not interpret the claim that way, especially when it didn't specifically say so.

My post said "if you mess up anything you take 30-50% damage in the best case scenario, and in any other scenario you're dead". You ignore the hyperbole when it comes to specifying which situations I thought this happens in (you claim I literally meant every combo of Bayonetta's), but you still willfully understand the hyperbole in the "if you mess up anything" part, after all you're not claiming that my message literally meant that if you accidentally input a pivot ftilt instead of pivot grab full stage across from Bayonetta she will do 30-50% damage on you. You're interpreting my message in a way which is most convenient to your rhetoric in your assault against one very simple post I originally made explaining why people complain about Bayonetta.

Which brings me to that fact that we're talking about this from completely different perspectives. You talk about the functionality of Bayonetta's combos with appropriate knowledge from both players (though I still don't trust you on this considering you earlier claimed Bayonetta can't do a 50% combo when witch time grants you that easily) while I talk about why people are simply complaining about her. They take 30-50% damage or die when they make a mistake and it frustrates them. You think they should get good, while I think it's bad design regardless (especially considering the reality of lower levels of play), however all of that is irrelevant. This is the reason they complain and we're both free to feel however we want about it.

Also you're absolutely right, I haven't labbed Bayonetta because I haven't been able to even buy the character due to gamepad problems, which is why in the very beginning I said I don't want to get into the whole "broken or not" argument, I just wanted to explain why people complain about Bayonetta. Instead, you started a merit contest about Bayonetta knowledge which has nothing to do with it and which I unfortunately slightly did get into due to replying to you. It's ironic my first post regarding the subject was about a strawman.

 

[Gunla]

Mid Brawler Nair is basically synonymous to Mario Nair. There's some differences with FAF and the damage but they are nearly identical.

Assuming you have a DJ left it's pretty plausible as long as you don't fastfall I'd imagine. If they airdodge you can catch it with a single jump and then jump back, I've done it before. It's in theory really great at killing one of my main character's recovery mixups (Cloud Airdodge into Up+B sweetspot) so I'd say it's worth considering.

The better options instead of Nair for Brawler usually are:

• HK if you know you're gonna land it and kill the opponent
• Fair for raw damage
• Bair for raw damage
• Dair if you know you're gonna land it and you don't FF
• Bowling Ball (or UU Charging)

Brawler's FAF on Nair is bad to the point where FFing offstage Nair = death, even with Feint Jump. Weak Nair isn't really great for edgeguards and offstage play (and going deep for a Strong Nair usually means you'll die). I prefer to stick to the other options because of just how blatant of a risk it is, especially on stages where walljumping isn't really plausible or useful.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

With a heavy heart, I bear news about another region banning Bayonetta. Luckily its a small region of St. Louis. They are a free region and I beat their best Bayonetta. I'm not a good player (in my eyes at least)

https://youtu.be/Wpln9bghGTQ

With smaller regions banning a character so early in this game's life cycle, I'm perplexed at how they would react if they KNEW NO MORE PATCHES ARE COMING AND THEY HAVE TO PUT UP AND SHUT UP TO PLAY THE GAME!

Sorry lost my temper for a sec. Combing through the last 15 or so pages was chore and so strenuous on my body that not even the bodybuilding workouts I've been doing for now 2 years could handle it.

Please, this is the only thread I follow on a regular and it nearly went too south.

Pretty cool overall.

Yeah I am in agreement with you on how some of the gut reactions are on her. I do not think banning her right now is going to do us much good unless we can see clear problems happening.

edit: not sure if I would agree she always does 30% every combo, a lot of variables with it.

 

[HoSmash4]

People are saying Bayonetta combos are ok because its just non-perfect DI?

I mean sure when you di Bayonetta combos perfectly you just turn it into a series of DI reads but the fact you need the specific knowledge of every move to even stand a chance against Bayonetta is pretty worrying.

Also Ghostbone , how specifically do you di the side-kills?

 

[Eugene Wang]

If you actually think my claim some pages ago (which I presume you're still referring to) was that Bayonetta always does more than 30%+ damage with any combo then you're free to think in that way, I'd just like to think that it not being the case is obvious enough to not interpret the claim that way, especially when it didn't specifically say so.

Nothing is obvious on the web. Blame the lack of ways to convey tone, and the presence of idiots and trolls.