Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Peppermint1201]

Do you know that the post I quoted said footstools only?
This isn't the thread to be getting +1 in postcount sadly, there's a lot of socials though if you're looking for that!

this isn't the thread for passive-aggressive insults either; i think a lot of the folks in here have lost sight of that

 

[Y2Kay]

What made you think Meta Knight was broken?

Mach Tornado plows through foes

recovery is too good to dunk on

Glide let's you stall in time battles

his good frame data let him get away with spamming sword attacks in the chaos

 

[HeavyLobster]

What made you think Meta Knight was broken?

Press B to find out.

 

[LancerStaff]

Oh, its Lancerstaff talking about FFAs again.

I don't really care to get involved in this crap again, so don't bother responding to this. But, when you point out things that agree with your 'point' (whatever that may be remains still to be seen) you should probably stray away from things that have been since changed by patches. "See, they didn't even care about WT 1v1.... well, they do, but for a time they didn't"... ok man.

The Witch Time nerf is separate from the move being borked mechanically in 1v1s. People were talking about it a few pages back. It slows people down independently from the power of the move, unlike normal counters. Not a gigantic difference in FFAs, but in 1v1s...

If most patches were for FFA

Yep, most. Not all. Most 1v1 nerfs and buff are done in a way to not effect FFAs, like adding and removing killing throw combos.

Also, you can't seriously tell me that Ryu was made for FFAs when the average FFA player never played SF and doesn't care about the finesse it takes to use Ryu. They just want to use strong moves that get the job done quickly so they don't have to worry about Captain Fabulous breathing down their necks. Also, Peach got her infinite taken away (good luck using that in FFA), gimmicky doubles tactics got nerfed (bucket/healers + team projectiles, if I got my facts right got hit) and things like Ganon's jab speed increase can't possibly be that big in FFA, while it was absolutely huge in 1v1. Characters/character tweaks geared towards 1 v 1 are definitely a real thing. You can't seriously call it a coinkidink when something big like happens...like Sheik and ZSS both getting nerfed in the same patch. Two characters that were mostly regarded as the best and second best characters in the 1 v 1 environment. They were never exactly good in FFAs in the first place. And, if I'm not wrong, Sakurai said himself in that one balancing article he does patches for all types of game modes. Not just FFA and not just 1 v 1. I don't really want to get into FFA discussion again (though at least we aren't ******** about Bayonetta anymore). But c'mon, you can't honestly say that Nintendo only cares about FFA first when they obviously did great things with smash 1v1.

Casuals never played Street Fighter? Actually, have casuals even heard of half the characters in the roster? Remember that they made Ryu's "finesse" completely optional too.

I'm sorry, but in what universe is Dorf's jab buff not major in every mode? When were Sheik and ZSS terrible FFA characters?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. In any case, Sakurai clearly knows about 1v1, and cares enough to further it through balance patches. Well, that may be a new team, but who knows.

"If I played one type of mode, the game would be slanted towards it." Can you tell if the game is balanced for one mode from this one statement? Absolutely not. People have fed me the quote time and time again, and it still means nothing. That's what I mean.

 

[BananaBake]

Fatmanonice As a Villy main, what experience do you have against Bayonetta? Have you found anything that somewhat works?

 

[Mr. Johan]

MJG refuses to use Villager in the Bayo MU iirc, and opts to use Diddy instead.

If that's any indication.

 

[BananaBake]

MJG refuses to use Villager in the Bayo MU iirc, and opts to use Diddy instead.

If that's any indication.

That's one way to deal with it, I guess

 

[Megamang]

Its like the DLC characters are from the pre-patch past, with their blatant disregard for most of the characters in the roster.

 

[Shaya]

LancerStaff , I'm not sure how many times you're going to bring up FFA with an inflection audiences perceive as "FFA are the hyper majority of what matters in design and balance".
You never alter your tone of your posts either although there has been countless good suggestions and comments directly to you that should switch up the perspective slightly. You need to express things a bit better because otherwise every regular just feels like they're talking to a wall in something that otherwise can be at least of mild interest.

Anyway, despite common belief, and hence why we see such crap as people try to contribute to most FFA discussions
FFA tournaments are a thing.
Including, *shock and horror* with items.
While the e-sports mayham has started to envelop the third parties which used to offer FFA tournaments all over the place ("oh, so that's the way you're meant to play"), like anime conventions or whatnot - they also appear as side events at bigger tournaments.
Competitive FFA events occur, and people take them seriously, and top level players take part in them (and win if they're the only ones there). Heck, results in these things are often crazily consistent with how a Smasher would gauge "true smash skill" (much like how Mew2King wins in doubles forever because his raw smash skill outclasses 99.9% of players).

It's a shame though that they're essentially never streamed/recorded, or given any sort of accolade. But they still happen.
And for the most part, with some rare exceptions, they're dominated by the same characters you see do well in singles, but even more so the characters that do amazingly well in doubles.

Hence I think it's a lot more pertinent to consider FFAs if you have no competitive experience akin to what one sees in doubles.
The exact same characters who do noticeably better in doubles tend to have great item control or anti-item play too.

Otherwise all we see in FFA discussions is this attempt at a skewed perspective of low level play, which we don't need to pretend to wear free for all goggles to understand what things become significantly scarier at lower levels of play (and that lower levels of play obviously matter in balance/design).

 

[Vycoul]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JG5U1RKGPww
Mewtwo "infinite", what do you all think? It's basically an loop of the nair to footstool fast fall disable Aba pulled off at Pound.

Ugh, as a Mewtwo main, it's rather concerning that this exists. I think there is a good chance nair could be butchered thanks to this discovery. Either with added endlag or less reliable hit linking.

What I think should happen is a new 2 to 3 second cooldown on footstools like the 1 second one they gave grabs.

I'm kind of surprised that they haven't done this already honestly. Haven't nearly all infinites involved footstools?
Fox and Link's jab canceling come to mind, but that's it. This would prevent any future infinite combo nonsense.

I hear that some characters rely on footstools, but do any really require more than one in such a short period?

Another way to fix this is simply giving the 2 to 3 second cooldown to Mewtwo's Disable. That would solve the problem painlessly for us.
Or as a third option, just go ahead butcher nair, then give Mewtwo even more speed, weight, and power buffs as compensation, that might work.

 

[C0rvus]

Do rage and SDI not affect the combo at all? Maybe it's leftover habits from Melee, but Mewtwo's nair looks like it should be SDI'able, though in practice I cannot say that I notice it working haha. I think if they were to increase the SDI modifier on nair a bit, it would take care of the infinite. Sure it might take away his nair > footstool > Disable > smash kill confirm (only against those who can SDI it on reaction or predict it, mind you), but he doesn't need that anyway.

 

[Blobface]

Take any "infinite" with a grain of salt 'til it's demonstrated on human players.

 

[Y2Kay]

It's an infinite, definitely.

just imagine that Abadango went for another Nair FS Disable instead of a charged up smash while the opponent is in stun. There you go.

this infinite is really impractical tho. the timing is tough, and Nair -> Disable only does 5 percent each, it will take a long time before you get to kill percent though

God forbid that any Mewtwo Mains get good enough to consistently FS disable though.

 

[Piipp]

He came on to the Mewtwo boards and said he's picking up Mewtwo. He also said he used Mewtwo with friendlies at KiT too.

Oh. I rarely saw him doing friendlies which is odd because we showed up like an hour and a half before the event started. But still that's good that Mewtwo is starting to get rep like this. Abadango breaking the barrier for Mewtwo along with LoF Blue, Mew^2, and now Reflex. I'm sure I also saw M2K actually use Mewtwo not too long ago vs Ryo.

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh. I rarely saw him doing friendlies which is odd because we showed up like an hour and a half before the event started. But still that's good that Mewtwo is starting to get rep like this. Abadango breaking the barrier for Mewtwo along with LoF Blue, Mew^2, and now Reflex. I'm sure I also saw M2K actually use Mewtwo not too long ago vs Ryo.

He went all Mewtwo at the last regional. Cloud is still his main, but he seems serious about having a good Mewtwo though.

 

[Piipp]

He went all Mewtwo at the last regional. Cloud is still his main, but he seems serious about having a good Mewtwo though.

So now he's maining Cloud instead of Wario? If he is then that's unfortunate because I really like watching good Warios play.

Also when Abadango played Wario is when I liked him the most. But when he dropped Wario for Pac it wasn't that big of a deal cuz I like watching good pacs as well. That just goes to show that Abadango is a play to win kind of player.

 

[Vycoul]

Sure it might take away his nair > footstool > Disable > smash kill confirm (only against those who can SDI it on reaction or predict it, minf you), but he doesn't need that anyway.

Ehh, Abadango made pretty good use of it. It's how he closed the last stock even. (as we all know)
I think giving cooldown on either footstools or Disable is the best way to remedy this issue. I really hope they don't go about fixing this in a hamfisted way.

The reason I worry so much is because they've set a precedent of always at least attempting to remove infinite combos. No matter how impractical they may be.
(I've heard that Peach's still works on some characters)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Not all infinite are bad -controversial statement :O

But I would like to talk about bayo and having her follow the rules of the other characters in terms of combos.If she followed the rules of the other characters in combos, what's the point of using her (and you can tone her down without killing that aspect; nerfing the dmg of side B, Up B, Uair and Bair by 3-4% and making her Up B more SDIable, or increasing her SDI multipliers, would stop her infinite from the top. She would still be able to do beautiful beat'em up combos, she would just get less reward)? Her neutral is on ZSS/MK level, as in above average, but not excellent (don't bring up guns, they're too MU-specific), her disadvantage state is amazing, but who plays characters solely for their avoidance to damage (a turtler probably)? Her advantage state is amazing of course, but that's her combo game for you. It's not too abuseable (except for the 0-death, which I'm not sure really exist or not. I'm on the fence with that one). I mean, besides her reward from hit confirms and her disadvantage state, what would be the point in playing her if she comboed like everyone else? Sheik, diddy, rosa, and bunch of other characters holds down the neutral. Ryu, cloud, Rosa, heavies, and others would hold down the advantage. Bayo would only be able to be amazing in the disadvantage and nobody wants to play in that regardless of how good it is.

 

[C0rvus]

Ehh, Abadango made pretty good use of it. It's how he closed the last stock even. (as we all know)
I think giving cooldown on either footstools or Disable is the best way to remedy this issue. I really hope they don't go about fixing this in a hamfisted way.

The reason I worry so much is because they've set a precedent of always at least attempting to remove infinite combos. No matter how impractical they may be.
(I've heard that Peach's still works on some characters)

I don't think changing a universal mechanic is going to happen, nor do I think it should. Their attempt to remove the Peach infinite involved a hitbox change on her up air. Expect the change to be to his nair, if he gets a change. Like I said, an SDI mod increase would be the simplest way to fix this. Nerfing its hitbox right after buffing it seems kinda silly. Regardless, it's not in either of our hands so I suppose this conversation is ultimately fruitless haha.

If Mewtwo loses nair > footstool, it would certainly hurt him, but if we're being honest with ourselves, this is a character who has no shortage of ways to end stocks, including the most reliable kill throw in the game. We'll see what happens, though. I think the character will be fine regardless of what happens.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff , I'm not sure how many times you're going to bring up FFA with an inflection audiences perceive as "FFA are the hyper majority of what matters in design and balance".
You never alter your tone of your posts either although there has been countless good suggestions and comments directly to you that should switch up the perspective slightly. You need to express things a bit better because otherwise every regular just feels like they're talking to a wall in something that otherwise can be at least of mild interest.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say... People perceive me as saying FFAs > all because that's exactly what I'm saying.

I don't understand what's wrong with my tone either. I'm stating what I think, and it is what it is. It's a bit frustrating having people scream the same two responses at you with absolutely no thought or attempt at understanding whatsoever but for the most part I think I've handled it maturely.

Like no, really, every time I say something it comes down to either Fox's trophy and the one interview, and I've already explained why I think they mean absolutely nothing. But no, people just keep shoving them at me somehow thinking "maybe this time it'll work" like a scrub Kirby spams stone.

 

[Vycoul]

I don't think changing a universal mechanic is going to happen, nor do I think it should. Their attempt to remove the Peach infinite involved a hitbox change on her up air. Expect the change to be to his nair, if he gets a change. Regardless, it's not in either of our hands so I suppose this conversation is ultimately fruitless haha.

A universal mechanic change does seem extreme, but footstool jumping has been at the root of nearly every single infinite in this game. Giving it a cooldown period, to my knowledge, would change little else than said problem.
But like you said, it isn't up to either of us, so this is indeed fruitless. I just enjoy talking/reading about something other than that damn witch at this point...

 

[ligersandtigons]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say... People perceive me as saying FFAs > all because that's exactly what I'm saying.

I don't understand what's wrong with my tone either. I'm stating what I think, and it is what it is. It's a bit frustrating having people scream the same two responses at you with absolutely no thought or attempt at understanding whatsoever but for the most part I think I've handled it maturely.

Like no, really, every time I say something it comes down to either Fox's trophy and the one interview, and I've already explained why I think they mean absolutely nothing. But no, people just keep shoving them at me somehow thinking "maybe this time it'll work" like a scrub Kirby spams stone.

Just to clarify, are you saying that Sakurai (aka the Smash dev team as a whole) doesn't care about 1v1 balance? Cuz some of your posts give off that impression.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Alright so seeing as people discussed it here I've done some testing on Bayonetta specials:

dABK KO percents (No DI):

Sheik: 378%
Palutena: 350%
Diddy: 379%

I picked these three characters because Sheik's fall speed = Diddy and Diddy's gravity = Palutena. Based off these facts, we can deduce that Bayo's specials DO ignore gravity, but do NOT ignore fall speed.

I also took the liberty of checking grounded side B which is the same as Up B and aerial Side B.

Seems like the idea behind this was to keep every combo option of Bayo's consistent.

 

[Shaya]

LancerStaff
Uhh, maybe because you have close to nothing to justify your opinion FFA > all beyond what people have to justify that multiple ways of playing are considered when balancing the game? It's a lot more obvious to see that the game is balanced for multiple levels of play (i.e. how nearly every game is balanced in this day and age) with different modes of play considered, and while it still is an opinion, it's one that there's a terribly large amount of universal backing in game design and the industry to go behind it (to be fair: I'm lazy and crutch on league of legends a lot, but it's not like people who have studied at a tertiary level detract heavily from those tenants because ... they're near-universally relevant/accepted in modern game design).

Your tone is one of authority on the matter when you have none. You make no concessions in what you state to reflect you are just stating your opinion on something with little more than your stubbornness to justify it.. I would say you're comparable to conspiracy theorists rather than someone with an analysis and perspective (as you make no adjustments from other perspectives) worth considering and this is exactly how people see and react to your posts.

And this isn't just in this context either. How you interact with others when it comes to your opinions (e.g. Pit vs Corrin) comes off the exact same way.
You may just have miscommunication issues. You should consider that possibility rather than get upset at everyone else. You may have a goldmine of ideas that could really help discourse, but you're very far away from expressing it as you are now.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

OH. I didn't test Neutral B for Bayonetta but honestly I feel like it probably also ignores weight and gravity but I cbf testing <3

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice As a Villy main, what experience do you have against Bayonetta? Have you found anything that somewhat works?

Not much but I know it's not fun. Challenging her in the air typically results in her winning out, Bat Within and Witch Time significantly negate the effectiveness of Villager's frame traps, trumps, and ledge options, whiffing grabs is catastrophic for obvious reasons, edgeguarding her is goofy hard, and she can shrug off camping options by simply blowing up lloids with bullet climax or blazing towards you with a downward afterburner kick to close the distance in an instant or bounce off you/your shield. Basic Villager follow ups always run the risk of Witch Time so a lot of the match up feels like hit and run, which is annoying because you have to put more stock in bigger hits. Might be on par or even worse than Rosalina.

Add in: Villager's had it rough lately. Cloud and Bayo are really bad match ups and Mewtwo has become significantly worse thanks to his buffs. The only saving graces as of late were the nerfs to Sheik and ZSS. Not an absolutely terrible thing though because just about everyone either breaks even or flat out sucks against Cloud and Bayo anyways.

 

[webbedspace]

So now he's maining Cloud instead of Wario? If he is then that's unfortunate because I really like watching good Warios play.

This was a mistyping. Mew2king mains Cloud and has a pocket Mewtwo (allegedly). Abadango co-mains Mewtwo and Meta Knight.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say... People perceive me as saying FFAs > all because that's exactly what I'm saying.
I don't understand what's wrong with my tone either. I'm stating what I think, and it is what it is.

You're making the mistake that all thoughts and ideas are treated equally in discussion. When your opinion is not based on fact, or more specifically in your case, is contradicted by fact, you "opinion" is easily dismissed as willful ignorance.
Stating a wrong idea multiple times does not make it a better idea, it is still, wrong. You should not be surprised by scorn, because that is the natural and indeed the only reply to willful ignorance.

 

[Megamang]

Ok, we've addressed the FFA thing, can we move on to something more interesting?

It was interesting that Mikekirby was very liberally using Kirby's ftilt. Hits frame 5 -8 and has FAF of 28. That is actually surprisingly good, looks like a dtilt in frame data. Still probably not 'safe' on shield drop options, but used at a relatively safe distance it seemed to be well worth it multiple times.

Is this just something that is due to smashers' noted lack of ground games?

 

[Quantumpen]

On the subject of Mewtwo's infinite, there really is no need to add in any sort of universal mechanics usage. The game engine already keeps track of the last time actions were used for the staling mechanic. The only thing they need to do to patch this is make it so that disable doesn't work if you use it too frequently so that any more than 3-4 reps of the infinite fails because disable doesn't have an effect.

I think they'll go that route, it's honestly quicker and easier than modifying nair.

 

[Shaya]

I would be surprised if it's unavoidable as the direction you pop out from nair is close to pseudo random if you are shuffling towards the centre of his body, and if they pop in front of you they should be facing the opposite direction?

The entire video was going by mario popping out behind him.
... I may easily be wrong here... but I thought the nair to footstool jump was not real but rather a pretty sick mix up/"GOTCHA"? A buffering of jump or a spot dodge could kill it entirely?

 

[Dre89]

Huh, if i had to ask real casual friends.
They'd be talking about:
- How broken Bowser Bomb is
- How Strong camping with Thunder is
- How broken counters are
- How all of Kirby's specals are amazing on their own
- How broken Flare Blitz is
- How awful Sheik is
- The list goes on

So yeah, who cares if Dedede gets changes to his Dthrow to allow him to have kill confirm like superheavies, nobody in casual legitimately uses dthrow combos, the only problem is FG Scrubs, that's probably why Dedede is an exception in terms of patch notes.

Bowser Bomb is broken though lol

It's frame 11, does 24%, kills pre100 with a bit of rage, and can link from jab. It also one shots shields and has a little utility as a ledgesnap and also as a rare landing mix up due to the stall and breaking shields.


It's just that no one complains about it because no one plays him and it also has the stigma from past games of being a bad move.

 

[KamikazePotato]

DeDeDe is very much a character balanced with FFAs and poor Wi-Fi in mind. I shudder to think of what a strong DDD would be like in a laggy For Glory environment.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is this just something that is due to smashers' noted lack of ground games?

That could easily be the case. A lot of characters have good ftilts that are very underutilized.

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshis Ftilt Frame Data back to Brawls is what I wish the most. This would improve his ground game a bit.
But instead Yoshis ftilt has more cooldown than upsmash and his only purpose is punishing and not spacing

 

[Nobie]

Before people think that the whole "Bayonetta's combos are only affected by fall speed" is something new to the franchise, back in Melee Mewtwo's up throw was also only affected by fall speed. It was why Falco was the hardest character to up throw for the KO in the game, followed by Captain Falcon and Fox.

I may have gotten that wrong (it's been yeeaaaars since I tested it out), but as far as I remember, it's a similar situation.

 

[Y2Kay]

I would be surprised if it's unavoidable as the direction you pop out from nair is close to pseudo random if you are shuffling towards the centre of his body, and if they pop in front of you they should be facing the opposite direction?

The entire video was going by mario popping out behind him.
... I may easily be wrong here... but I thought the nair to footstool jump was not real but rather a pretty sick mix up/"GOTCHA"? A buffering of jump or a spot dodge could kill it entirely?

here's the thread with the info we do have on the infinite:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewt...and-how-to-deal-with-it.434944/#post-21092087

 

[Ghostbone]

Looks about as real as Ryu's u-tilt "infinite" tbh.

SDI should get you out, it's just a matter of figuring out which way to SDI

 

[Megamang]

Speaking of taking advantage of ground game, I think I might start some (low level) charizard rep. I've been having a blast with him.


I know this isn't livejournal, but I wanted to share some stuff im thinking about. If Mikekirby was able to dominate the ground with a relatively immobile little puffball, Charizard's monster d-tilt can put in some work.

Speaking of which, Zard's... 'boxing' game is really nice. I hesitate to call it boxing because ideally you use it like a sword, and the opponent doesn't get to box back. But he has good mixups at a range, from the ground... He tries to mix you up like a boxer, but its from a better distance.

Jab is a great option, between the full combo and mixups (jab 12 Fly is solid, more on that) you can never know for sure you're safe, even if it jabs your shield. Speaking of shield, which is usually the bane of ground games at all in smash (shield -> punish), Zard's dtilt is a 20 frame recovery, really long reaching, really great shield poke. At 10 damage, its decent pressure. If and when you do it, it hits them pretty horizontally. I haven't tested it much, but it seems like fastfallers/unfortunate DI always ends up in a tech chase situation, and its not like you'll be DIing upwards consistently when you are playing footsies, so it can lead to followups reasonably. Then you have ftilt, which is the longest ranged but most punishable.

So what, these things mostly describe all the heavies... Well, he also threatens a unique range of areas with different strengths. Platform throw is a rage machine. Charizard threatens vertically on more 'levels' (literal levels of height). Utilt is a giant disjoint, usmash is a running disjoint... If zard makes it beneath you running and does his upwards normals, you aren't beating them with a hitbox unless you are named Cloud. And he runs quickly.

Fire breath is decent for tacking on damage, and against a lot of recoveries it can be more that a little free damage, and forces a thoughtful recovery from your opponents. Dair is a huge, meaty hitbox that is easy to get to spike, so it can stomp out people who hesitate thinking there is a flamethrower coming. Fair will kill early if it hits out there anyways. Nair is kinda Cloud esque in that its hitbox swings alllll the way around, so you can threaten offstage and also do some weird things like cancel out a fireball and still hit them/pressure shield safely if it is autocancelled.

But Zard really shines in his specials. Flare Blitz can hit as early as frame 23 and is active for a while, Fly starts frame 9 and starts armoring through things at 4, which can lead to early kills. It also hits until frame 28, which makes it a really REALLY easy button to just press when you see/read an airdodge starting out (fear of the fair/uair, since you can threaten with Multiple Jumps!) and net early kills. Its full of WBKB all over, so it becomes a rage machine.

He has a cross screen punish button! That starts hitting on 23! That can massacre landings like no other, especially since their other landings are constantly pressured by run up shield -> options, or dash attack (meaty) or dash usmash or SH anything...

And his trump card, his... why play Charizard, answer? None of the above. Its his freakin bair. That thing kills obscenely early, has ridiculous range and disjoint... Basically its what a heavy deserves, a hitbox that if you place it right, wins out and straight up gets the kill. His extra jump lets him turn around more in the air, setting up super traps.

Imagine you are at 70% above a charizard at 150% Do you try and win vertically? Because your dair probably won't beat uair, if you commit to the dair you can get flied. Airdodge is deadly to uair and Fly if they play it right. Zard can also simply land and has access to utilt and usmash for juggles, or a grab to reset the situation. Drift airdodge is moderately safe but can get you Yolo flair blitz, which will actually kill you this close to the ceiling. If you decide to drift away, he can jump again and threaten fly, blitz, uair, and during the initial jump fair, and now bair. Bair will kill you off the side if you aren't dead center at 70%. Drift too far away and you'll get flamethrowered... And you're at the ledge, where his options can also trump yours, and he has access to his great ground game. Dtilt is much like CF's, get dtilted trying to jump off the ledge and life can go bad really quick. And if zard falls off to dair, he still has access to bair to mush you for airdodging.

He certainly has his flaws, and may not be the best super heavy even. But his advantage state is actually really scary, and a charizard that consistently presses the right buttons in neutral can start taking stocks with extreme conviction/speed/ease. He has multiple very deadly disjoints, solid juggles, a good grab (and the much understated good pummel, you'll be taking consistent damage from grabs while he refreshes his moves) and grab followup game. Also something I didn't really get into, but super armor on frame 5 is really nice for escapes with Rock Smash, though it is punishable.


TLDR : If we had pictures of the range that people threatened on what frame, Charizard would be a pretty damn good case for scariest heavy advantage state. Zard can be in many spots quickly with either super armor, disjoint, or pure power, and often with a combination. He suffers from being juggled, some rushdown... basic heavy stuff. But he is a pokemon, and IMO is like the Mewtwo Heavy... Why are you getting hit? Disjoints and bair and raw power and super armor and bair is just... terrifying. And he has just gained mobility. Good things happen when people gain mobility, so I think i'll jump on this train before its too late.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zard's bair kills like 5% later than Zelda's lightning kicks and is pretty much impossible to not sweetspot lol