Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

I love* the FFA discussion because no one ever says what makes a character good in a free for all. Is it ko power? Is it ability to survive? Is it variety of moves, getting around the staling issue that's far more prevalent in a FFA style match? Is it how they utilize rage? Is it how well they can navigate a stage with 3 opponents? Is it 7 other opponents? Are we talking about how well they use items? How about how often they get items? Are items even on in this discussion? Are we also taking into account that FFA's are an incredibly political affair, that are governed by alliances both temporary and permanent?

Nope! People just say someone is "good" or "bad" in FFAs.




*hate hate hate hate hate hate hate

 

[wedl!!]

You forget how fetishized rhetoric is in this community

 

[BunbUn129]

I love* the FFA discussion because no one ever says what makes a character good in a free for all. Is it ko power? Is it ability to survive? Is it variety of moves, getting around the staling issue that's far more prevalent in a FFA style match? Is it how they utilize rage? Is it how well they can navigate a stage with 3 opponents? Is it 7 other opponents? Are we talking about how well they use items? How about how often they get items? Are items even on in this discussion? Are we also taking into account that FFA's are an incredibly political affair, that are governed by alliances both temporary and permanent?

Nope! People just say someone is "good" or "bad" in FFAs.




*hate hate hate hate hate hate hate

Considering heavies are much better in FFA's, I'd say KO power and survivability. Just think of Ganon, whose power is easily abusable in the chaos, and casuals generally won't exploit how punishable his attacks are and how poor his recovery is.

A character like MK is bad in FFA's because all of his strengths are things casuals won't really exploit properly; combos, edge-guarding, KO set ups. Sheik is the same, and both these characters generally lack power while dying early.

 

[Sinister Slush]

honestly, would anyone care if footstools were removed from the game?

I'd care in a sense that I'd be absolutely thrilled.
I want you people to realize Yoshi could actually become slightly better if he never has to have the lingering fear of footstools happening to him at like 20ish percent if he's in a situation where he needs to be recovering low.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Why even bother discussing a game mode that is intended to be played be people who

a) do not attempt to optimize their play to any significant level whatsoever

b) typically play under conditions that would be considered unplayable on by competitive players (lag, wiimotes, etc.)

If free for all was played by players who attempted to improve their skill in meaningful ways, or played in proper conditions, maybe we could study the free for all meta competitively. But for now, all patching done for free for all is based on

a) metrics that test for skewed online win ratios

b) assumptions about the characteristics of low level players and how lag affects matches

Free for all is not worth discussing anyway because it is inherently uncompetitive. Why bother balancing characters in that environment when items, stage jank and other chaos already make it possible to win with any character? Smh.

 

[Ninety]

On that note, how is it even possible to be coded like that? @Aerodrome help a bro out.

I actually think they should put this kinda thing on certain rapid jabs or moves that could actually use the knockback consistency LOL now that I know it's possible I'm sad they didn't experiment with it more. Like maybe perhaps on Duck Hunt's Smash attacks =O or moves that people commonly fall out of (not necessarily combos)

Tell me about it. I wish they'd have done that to Robin's wind jab instead of the double-edged sword that was the KBG increase.

 

[Pazzo.]

Ensuring a character works as intended is bad design now?

See, looking at characters like Bayonetta is what convinces me that that Sakurai doesn't really care about 1v1 balance. By making Bayo work in FFAs she became one of the best 1v1 characters. Witch Time is a great example of a move that's way stronger in 1v1s simply because they want it to be balanced for FFAs.

Sakurai has explicitly stated that he keeps 1v1 in mind.

“There are moves that are completely useless in a 1v1 battle, but in a four-player free-for-all those moves might prove quite useful. Therefore, if I played only one kind of battle, the game would feel very slanted towards a particular style of play.”

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/09/sakurai-on-balance/

Let's please stop spreading this misinformation that's been disproven for a while now.

Edit: Characters good in FFAs? Characters with any move(sets) that can capitalize on a lack of focus from the opponent. You see this all the time in low-tier For Glory highlights.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Why even bother discussing a game mode that is intended to be played be people who

a) do not attempt to optimize their play to any significant level whatsoever

b) typically play under conditions that would be considered unplayable on by competitive players (lag, wiimotes, etc.)

If free for all was played by players who attempted to improve their skill in meaningful ways, or played in proper conditions, maybe we could study the free for all meta competitively. But for now, all patching done for free for all is based on

a) metrics that test for skewed online win ratios

b) assumptions about the characteristics of low level players and how lag affects matches

Free for all is not worth discussing anyway because it is inherently uncompetitive. Why bother balancing characters in that environment when items, stage jank and other chaos already make it possible to win with any character? Smh.

Idk, I feel like FFA's are worth discussing when trying to understand the philosophy behind a character's design, an attacks purpose, and buffs and nerfs as well.

When people in this thread ask or complain about how Ganondorf as a character, or Kirby's down b are badly designed, FFA's have to be brought up because that's a legit counterpoint.

The fact is that FFA's do affect a character's build, which in turn affects their competitive viability.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Considering heavies are much better in FFA's, I'd say KO power and survivability. Just think of Ganon, whose power is easily abusable in the chaos, and casuals generally won't exploit how punishable his attacks are and how poor his recovery is.

A character like MK is bad in FFA's because all of his strengths are things casuals won't really exploit properly; combos, edge-guarding, KO set ups. Sheik is the same, and both these characters generally lack power while dying early.

You're conflating FFAs with casuals. Ganondorf is scary in a crowd but dies very easily offstage in doubles/FFAs with competent players. It's not hard in FFAs to gang up on heavies and abuse their large frames and poor frame data. The best FFA characters are ones who can hit hard without being giant targets and can recover. Villager can throw out powerful Bowling Balls and Trees to get early kills while living forever. Cloud does Cloud things. Heavies might be better in FFAs, but if there were any sort of tier list for them, they would generally be middling to slightly above average, while the dominant choices would mostly be characters who can throw out moves with heavy kill power but aren't hindered by traditional heavy weaknesses.

 

[LancerStaff]

would dispute your assertion that Sakurai doesn't care about 1v1 balance. Bayo is only borked because of how new she is and that the dev team hasn't quite gotten around to fully fixing her. Also Witch Time was substantially nerfed in the last patch.

I still think pre-patch Sheik was a stronger FFA character. Now she's more like low mid tier since they cut her weight. If they actually cared that much about 1v1 balance they would of removed the 50-50 a long time ago.

How does Witch Time's nerf conflict with the idea that they primarily balance for FFAs? It's something they could change without effecting her FFA play significantly. The idea behind WT is that it has a consistent effect regardless of what you use it against, but the main drawback is that in a FFA it rarely nets Bayo a KO. Anybody can just waltz up and attack Bayo and her victim if she's trying to combo with her smashes, especially with the garbage priority they have.

and to an extent have always been bad in FFA's and they were nerfed.

The only character who's god-like in both FFA's and 1v1 is .

Uh, no? I could make a five page rant about how good those characters are in FFAs. Sheik for example is godlike offstage not only because of her aerials, but also how her Uspecial works and avoids ledge snap vulnerability. Sheik being mostly impossible to gimp was a very deliberate decision.

I love* the FFA discussion because no one ever says what makes a character good in a free for all. Is it ko power? Is it ability to survive? Is it variety of moves, getting around the staling issue that's far more prevalent in a FFA style match? Is it how they utilize rage? Is it how well they can navigate a stage with 3 opponents? Is it 7 other opponents? Are we talking about how well they use items? How about how often they get items? Are items even on in this discussion? Are we also taking into account that FFA's are an incredibly political affair, that are governed by alliances both temporary and permanent?

Nope! People just say someone is "good" or "bad" in FFAs.

*hate hate hate hate hate hate hate

All you need to win a FFA is to kill more then you die. Roy for example hits super hard but gets hit just as hard since he has to play in people's faces and is combo fodder. On the opposite side of the spectrum we have ZSS who keeps people out with her good frame data and plays safely at a range with her long grab and side special. For the most part a character's theoretical kill/death ratio is equal. There are over and undertuned characters, don't misunderstand. (I main one of each, lol.)

Considering heavies are much better in FFA's, I'd say KO power and survivability. Just think of Ganon, whose power is easily abusable in the chaos, and casuals generally won't exploit how punishable his attacks are and how poor his recovery is.

A character like MK is bad in FFA's because all of his strengths are things casuals won't really exploit properly; combos, edge-guarding, KO set ups. Sheik is the same, and both these characters generally lack power while dying early.

The game's balanced for mid level play, meaning that people will indeed be edgeguarding and abusing things like killing OoS options and Smashes that are safe on shield.

Why even bother discussing a game mode that is intended to be played be people who

a) do not attempt to optimize their play to any significant level whatsoever

b) typically play under conditions that would be considered unplayable on by competitive players (lag, wiimotes, etc.)

If free for all was played by players who attempted to improve their skill in meaningful ways, or played in proper conditions, maybe we could study the free for all meta competitively. But for now, all patching done for free for all is based on

a) metrics that test for skewed online win ratios

b) assumptions about the characteristics of low level players and how lag affects matches

Free for all is not worth discussing anyway because it is inherently uncompetitive. Why bother balancing characters in that environment when items, stage jank and other chaos already make it possible to win with any character? Smh.

Dude? Sakurai said they balanced Brawl around the Wiimote since casuals used it. It absolutely matters.

They balance it that way because they want to. No amount of arguing your logic on some forum Nintendo doesn't care about isn't going to change it.

Sakurai has explicitly stated that he keeps 1v1 in mind.

“There are moves that are completely useless in a 1v1 battle, but in a four-player free-for-all those moves might prove quite useful. Therefore, if I played only one kind of battle, the game would feel very slanted towards a particular style of play.”

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/09/sakurai-on-balance/

Let's please stop spreading this misinformation that's been disproven for a while now.

If I robbed a bank, I'd be rich. Can you tell if I robbed a bank from that one statement alone? No.

When we have a gap from bottom to top this big it absolutely feels slanted towards FFAs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Why do we talk about FFA like it's some super complicated, scheming competition? It's not that complex. We all pick a character, then we beat the crap out of each other.

So it doesn't look like 'm bashing FFA's, let me share with you rather embarassing things I actually thought when I played FFA's non-stop in Brawl

• and sucks. I had no comprehension of throw combos, let alone chain grabs.
  
• 's gyro is useless.
  
• is one of the best characters because he can change between a light, middle, and heavy weight at will
  
• sucks. I didn't even realize aura was a thing.
  
• is trash. he moves really slow, and his lasers suck compared to
  
• is way better than
  
• is broken.

I may have gotten the last one right, but my point still stands!

 

[BunbUn129]

Why do we talk about FFA like it's some super complicated, scheming competition? It's not that complex. We all pick a character, then we beat the crap out of each other.

So it doesn't look like 'm bashing FFA's, let me share with you rather embarassing things I actually thought when I played FFA's non-stop in Brawl

• and sucks. I had no comprehension of throw combos, let alone chain grabs.
  
• 's gyro is useless.
  
• is one of the best characters because he can change between a light, middle, and heavy weight at will
  
• sucks. I didn't even realize aura was a thing.
  
• is trash. he moves really slow, and his lasers suck compared to
  
• is way better than
  
• is broken.

I may have gotten the last one right, but my point still stands!

You missed one:

is broken.

 

[HeavyLobster]

When we have a gap from bottom to top this big it absolutely feels slanted towards FFAs.

Please explain why most of the patch buffs and nerfs over time have generally improved characters thought to be bad in 1v1s, while they've generally made worse characters thought to be good. Skill curve and doubles/FFAs might explain them not going all out with power increases for heavies, but I can't look at who's getting buffed and nerfed without thinking that their first priority is 1v1s, with some but not many balance changes being made with doubles primarily in mind. The gap between top and bottom is for the most part not really that big considering the massive roster size, excepting a couple of relatively new DLC chars. Balancing a giant and diverse character roster is really hard and they've generally done a good job with patches at improving it.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think we should look at Smash as "A competitive fighting game where the main mode throws all that out in a glorious cacophony of battle".

Sakurai's a bit romantic, so the paradox of an orderly, well made game that can be played like a manga showdown appeals to him greatly.

We just take the orderly parts alone to get our preferred game.

You missed one:

is broken.

Here, here.

Aether spam needs to be nerfed.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'd care in a sense that I'd be absolutely thrilled.
I want you people to realize Yoshi could actually become slightly better if he never has to have the lingering fear of footstools happening to him at like 20ish percent if he's in a situation where he needs to be recovering low.

do.... do you know what a footstool combo is?

 

[Sinister Slush]

do.... do you know what a footstool combo is?

Do you know that the post I quoted said footstools only?
This isn't the thread to be getting +1 in postcount sadly, there's a lot of socials though if you're looking for that!

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Do you know that the post I quoted said footstools only?
This isn't the thread to be getting +1 in postcount sadly, there's a lot of socials though if you're looking for that!

YIKES

that burned

 

[FullMoon]

I'd care in a sense that I'd be absolutely thrilled.
I want you people to realize Yoshi could actually become slightly better if he never has to have the lingering fear of footstools happening to him at like 20ish percent if he's in a situation where he needs to be recovering low.

How often does Yoshi even get footstooled offstage? I don't think that's very reliable, that said, I guess (un)happy accidents happen.

 

[Sinister Slush]

How often does Yoshi even get footstooled offstage? I don't think that's very reliable, that said, I guess (un)happy accidents happen.

It still happens occasionally, just like accidents from smashville platform deaths or shield breaks. Not too out there for it to happen.

 

[TurboLink]

honestly, would anyone care if footstools were removed from the game?

Hey, likes his footstools.

• is broken.

What made you think Meta Knight was broken?

 

[LancerStaff]

Please explain why most of the patch buffs and nerfs over time have generally improved characters thought to be bad in 1v1s, while they've generally made worse characters thought to be good. Skill curve and doubles/FFAs might explain them not going all out with power increases for heavies, but I can't look at who's getting buffed and nerfed without thinking that their first priority is 1v1s, with some but not many balance changes being made with doubles primarily in mind. The gap between top and bottom is for the most part not really that big considering the massive roster size, excepting a couple of relatively new DLC chars. Balancing a giant and diverse character roster is really hard and they've generally done a good job with patches at improving it.

Mewtwo's buffs were just as relevant in FFAs as they were in 1v1s, especially the bigger Shadow Ball and the weight. Ike keeps getting buffs even though he's been perceived as strong for quite some time, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Japanese players only rated him low from a lack of use and not theory. You were just advocating the idea that heavies don't do as well in FFAs as most people think... This applies to Ike as well. Dorf's Dsmash is another big one. It's kinda irrelevant in 1v1s even after it was fixed because Dorf has to approach. In FFAs things are more cramped and the likelihood that Dorf would end up standing on the ledge is that much higher. That's a clear FFA buff to a character they're supposedly afraid of overbuffing in FFAs.

Also of note is the minor damage/kb changes on smash attacks. If they were trying to fix Kirby in 1v1s they wouldn't be making his smashes stronger. It's much more important in FFAs because you'll be landing them more often and people generally don't live as long.

And again, Bayonetta was made with seemingly no thought about how the character would work in 1v1s. How much do you think they cared if pre-patch Witch Time was a thing?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mewtwo's buffs were just as relevant in FFAs as they were in 1v1s, especially the bigger Shadow Ball and the weight. Ike keeps getting buffs even though he's been perceived as strong for quite some time, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Japanese players only rated him low from a lack of use and not theory. You were just advocating the idea that heavies don't do as well in FFAs as most people think... This applies to Ike as well. Dorf's Dsmash is another big one. It's kinda irrelevant in 1v1s even after it was fixed because Dorf has to approach. In FFAs things are more cramped and the likelihood that Dorf would end up standing on the ledge is that much higher. That's a clear FFA buff to a character they're supposedly afraid of overbuffing in FFAs.

Also of note is the minor damage/kb changes on smash attacks. If they were trying to fix Kirby in 1v1s they wouldn't be making his smashes stronger. It's much more important in FFAs because you'll be landing them more often and people generally don't live as long.

And again, Bayonetta was made with seemingly no thought about how the character would work in 1v1s. How much do you think they cared if pre-patch Witch Time was a thing?

Ike is actually pretty good in doubles/FFAs because he has a good recovery for his weight class, powerful disjoints, and a frame that's not all that big. He's overshadowed here as elsewhere by Cloud, but that doesn't mean he's not good, and is certainly better than other heavies. Dorf's D-Smash was buffed because it was terrible for no good reason before, and in 1v1s is sometimes useful after spotdodging a tether grab or something. Kirby does have ways of setting up into his Smashes in 1v1s. I'm not going to say that all of the buffs they've given characters have exactly made sense, but I wouldn't say they've been implemented primarily for FFAs/doubles, since they're almost always given to characters who are underwhelming in singles. As for Bayonetta, it's not all that uncommon for DLC characters to be broken at launch in fighting games.

 

[Megamang]

Oh, its Lancerstaff talking about FFAs again.

I don't really care to get involved in this crap again, so don't bother responding to this. But, when you point out things that agree with your 'point' (whatever that may be remains still to be seen) you should probably stray away from things that have been since changed by patches. "See, they didn't even care about WT 1v1.... well, they do, but for a time they didn't"... ok man.


---

Anyways, you can probably escape the M2 thing, or at least make him take it to an edge or platform, with proper (S)DI. The nair is finnicky on where it spits you out, and while the RAR helps it put you in the right spot, it shouldn't be too hard to shift around enough to make the m2 drop it. The ideal punish is probably still a charged smash like abadango does. Or don't get hit with a RAR'd nair =P.

Has anyone noticed an increase in M2? I actually stopped using him after aba's run, since it kinda felt like a secret we kept was let out and it was the peak of anything that was gonna happen.

---

Megaman is dope. Why worry about all this 'press buttons or don't press buttons' neutral tomfoolery when the correct answer is fire 3 lemons and wait for results.

 

[G. Stache]

Regarding the M2 infinite: If that combo is entirely true no matter the DI, then I would stay away from that. Because if Nintendo finds out about it then they're probably going to butcher it hard (kinda like what they did to Peach) at some point. And that means that they would either have to get rid of footstools (unlikely) or tweak a move so you can't perform the infinite. And after a lot of M2s were rejoicing about their new and improved Nair, it'd be a shame if Nintendo butchered it just because someone was abusing an exploit hard. Let's be honest: after they got rid of chain grabs and Peach's infinite, I think it's clear that Nintendo doesn't like the prospect of infinites.

Mewtwo's buffs were just as relevant in FFAs as they were in 1v1s, especially the bigger Shadow Ball and the weight. Ike keeps getting buffs even though he's been perceived as strong for quite some time, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Japanese players only rated him low from a lack of use and not theory. You were just advocating the idea that heavies don't do as well in FFAs as most people think... This applies to Ike as well. Dorf's Dsmash is another big one. It's kinda irrelevant in 1v1s even after it was fixed because Dorf has to approach. In FFAs things are more cramped and the likelihood that Dorf would end up standing on the ledge is that much higher. That's a clear FFA buff to a character they're supposedly afraid of overbuffing in FFAs.

Also of note is the minor damage/kb changes on smash attacks. If they were trying to fix Kirby in 1v1s they wouldn't be making his smashes stronger. It's much more important in FFAs because you'll be landing them more often and people generally don't live as long.

And again, Bayonetta was made with seemingly no thought about how the character would work in 1v1s. How much do you think they cared if pre-patch Witch Time was a thing?

If most patches were for FFA like you said they were, then I need you to explain a few things for me. Luigi's throw was hit pretty hard in a patch, as we all know. Grab combos, from my experience, aren't good in FFAs because you can attempt to do this amazing chain to rack up terribly high damage...until you realize that Bowser over there saw you throw someone and is now about to flying slam you into next stock (and I've been on both sides of this problem). And prepatch Luigi was never a great character for FFA. Too floaty, drawn out recovery, short range, bad mobility, etc. And, from my experience, most of his kills came from smashes anyways. Also, you can't seriously tell me that Ryu was made for FFAs when the average FFA player never played SF and doesn't care about the finesse it takes to use Ryu. They just want to use strong moves that get the job done quickly so they don't have to worry about Captain Fabulous breathing down their necks. Also, Peach got her infinite taken away (good luck using that in FFA), gimmicky doubles tactics got nerfed (bucket/healers + team projectiles, if I got my facts right got hit) and things like Ganon's jab speed increase can't possibly be that big in FFA, while it was absolutely huge in 1v1. Characters/character tweaks geared towards 1 v 1 are definitely a real thing. You can't seriously call it a coinkidink when something big like happens...like Sheik and ZSS both getting nerfed in the same patch. Two characters that were mostly regarded as the best and second best characters in the 1 v 1 environment. They were never exactly good in FFAs in the first place. And, if I'm not wrong, Sakurai said himself in that one balancing article he does patches for all types of game modes. Not just FFA and not just 1 v 1. I don't really want to get into FFA discussion again (though at least we aren't ******** about Bayonetta anymore). But c'mon, you can't honestly say that Nintendo only cares about FFA first when they obviously did great things with smash 1v1.

 

[L9999]

Why do we talk about FFA like it's some super complicated, scheming competition? It's not that complex. We all pick a character, then we beat the crap out of each other.

So it doesn't look like 'm bashing FFA's, let me share with you rather embarassing things I actually thought when I played FFA's non-stop in Brawl

• and sucks. I had no comprehension of throw combos, let alone chain grabs.
  
• 's gyro is useless.
  
• is one of the best characters because he can change between a light, middle, and heavy weight at will
  
• sucks. I didn't even realize aura was a thing.
  
• is trash. he moves really slow, and his lasers suck compared to
  
• is way better than
  
• is broken.

I may have gotten the last one right, but my point still stands!

I'm sure most casuals think that way. Now with Smash 4, from my school, and this ones are hilarious.
deserves to be banned. L(me) should never play her.
is broken. I hope she gets banned too.
DHD's smash attacks are inescapable and super powerful. Zoning is for *******. Aggro all the way!
is not trash, she has Rest.
is unapproachable! I hate him just as I hate Calculus.
He is exactly like Ness.
is trash because they nerfed him.
is broken. PKF and PKT are too strong. (And they thought he was trash until I played them LOL)
She sucks. Too light and hard to play.
THEY ARE BANNED AND BROKEN, you cannot play them.
is just as broken as and .
ftw. Hammer and Stone are the best moves in the game.

 

[Megamang]

How do casuals get to think mii brawler is broken?


Did you helicopter kick abuse them? Its ok if you did, but you have to admit it now.

 

[Rizen]

How do casuals get to think mii brawler is broken?


Did you helicopter kick abuse them? Its ok if you did, but you have to admit it now.

Little Jay Leno is OP Games like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8unisq6oLgc
small custom Brawler is a really good character.

 

[L9999]

How do casuals get to think mii brawler is broken?


Did you helicopter kick abuse them? Its ok if you did, but you have to admit it now.

They don't even let me play them, not even 1111 Miis. They just assume they are broken because they are banned at tournaments. The first time I got denied using them in a school tournament they told me "you are going to pull out some freaky broken trick" I wanted to give them a chance and they denied me that. If they feel like letting me play them, I play 1111 SWORDFIGHTER and they get mad by stupid crap like Up B spikes at the edge or Dair.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Huh, if i had to ask real casual friends.
They'd be talking about:
- How broken Bowser Bomb is
- How Strong camping with Thunder is
- How broken counters are
- How all of Kirby's specals are amazing on their own
- How broken Flare Blitz is
- How awful Sheik is
- The list goes on

So yeah, who cares if Dedede gets changes to his Dthrow to allow him to have kill confirm like superheavies, nobody in casual legitimately uses dthrow combos, the only problem is FG Scrubs, that's probably why Dedede is an exception in terms of patch notes.

 

[sedrf]

My firends either complain about villager,shul/corrin counter, mk's nado

 

[Yikarur]

That Brawler wasn't even playing really good.. but yes Small Brawler is S Tier imo.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah, when people always argue about Mii legality, I always thought it was odd when some peeps say "well, it's not like Miis are any good with all their custom/sizes" when a fully optimized Mii Brawler seems really crazy good. Dapuffster actually managed to make it into 13th place at EVO last year, something Kong Cyclone DK couldn't do.

 

[Piipp]

Reflex plays wario and Mewtwo

Does he really? When he came and won KiT he only played Wario. Did he just pick him up?

 

[Y2Kay]

Does he really? When he came and won KiT he only played Wario. Did he just pick him up?

He came on to the Mewtwo boards and said he's picking up Mewtwo. He also said he used Mewtwo with friendlies at KiT too.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

is not trash, she has Rest.
She sucks. Too light and hard to play.
THEY ARE BANNED AND BROKEN, you cannot play them.
ftw. Hammer and Stone are the best moves in the game.

Those four are my favorites

 

[Shady Shaymin]

As the number of tourney viable characters increases (and coincidentally as the threshold for tournament viability decreases as a result of the sheik floodgates), the need for counterpicks is becoming more prominent in today's meta.

At the same time, I feel like certain characters make better secondaries than others. Obviously, talented top players like Larry and M2K have the skill to keep typically demanding fighters like Sheik etc. as pockets, but the average player probably won't have the time or dedication to put in the labbing for someone they won't be picking 60% of the time.

I think characters that make the best secondaries are ones with clearly dominant matchups (60:40 or better), and those who have relatively low learning curves. Cloud meets this description perfectly; he dominates the Rosaluma matchup pretty decisively and is easy to pick up. On the other hand, someone like fox may have a 55:45 edge over X character, but the matchup may not be advantageous enough to warrant putting in the work to learn fox.

What characters do you guys think work well for this role?

 

[Pazzo.]

If I robbed a bank, I'd be rich. Can you tell if I robbed a bank from that one statement alone? No.

When we have a gap from bottom to top this big it absolutely feels slanted towards FFAs.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. In any case, Sakurai clearly knows about 1v1, and cares enough to further it through balance patches. Well, that may be a new team, but who knows.

That's the final word Lancer. We all know how well your Corrin assumptions turned out, so I'd say you're not in the best position to continue to debate this.

 

[Nobie]

Most if not all patches are clearly aimed towards 1v1, but are designed such that they do not negatively impact FFA or other formats.

Like, what does nerfing Sheik down throw matter outside of 1v1 when what you do in FFAs is run up and up smash them, or kick them into Ridley or something.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Separate fall speed/gravity values is still a thing. You also have to consider whether or not your DI will put you in a spot to be killed with other attacks (namely upair), which are still affected by different character weights. It's not literally the same DI as Cloud.

Beep Boop

I haven't tested it but Gravity doesn't seem to apply either. 90% sure.

Fall speed may not either.

I'll confirm when I get home.

 

[Megamang]

For a valuable secondary, it is really nice to have a few skewed MUs, since usually you are pulling them out against a dedicated main so you need some sort of advantage.

However, ease of play is also important. As is consistent gameplan. Mario makes a solid secondary for this reason, and not the first reason at all. He doesn't dominate anyone but the worst characters, but he can go into basically every match with the same gameplan, and it will work alright. He is nice to pull out if you are losing to something you don't fully understand yet, such as a megaman shooting all your bananas and you need a quick response before you are 2-0'd.

I think Doc makes a great secondary for a combination of these reasons, as well as being the 'what?' character too. Many people probably don't know they get kill confirmed by dthrow fair, so he has a certain pocket value for these MUs. (When this confirm kills, it kills early. It also works on light fastfallers, i.e. the most important characters.)

The downside is, people don't have to know Doc in and out to know that his weakness can be exploited, since exploiting those with lack of mobility isn't a new concept. However, with dynamic stage picking at tournaments, you can sometimes 'corner' someone into a game at Dreamland or TaC and not have to worry as much about being camped, before you pull out the secondary.


Either way, I agree the meta is now leaning towards the value of having a few characters under your belt. With new top tiers with new top tier traits and weaknesses, certain properties have usage now! Mewtwo was buffed and never had much problem with Shiek, sure, but he is finding a strong usage case with a powerful throw game against a character that can counter striking with precision. Speaking of which, his instant death isn't so damning against bayo, she does it to anyone anyways so Mewtwo doesn't exactly get a strength in the MU, but his 'weakness' is put on an almost level field ( I say almost because Witch Time and Dair / Bair will still kill him early)


So? Well, I find it exciting. I always vacillate between characters, never being able to decide a main. Maybe I can just play 4 or 5 characters with decent proficiency, and have a powerful tool at the mid-low level! That is cool to me.

Also, seeing someone like Larry pull out a DK is also very cool to me. Smash 4 is in a great place, and the soft ban on Bayo has a part in this.