Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
But remember, everyone ignores anything good Ganondorf can do.
I mean, Palutena was kinda supposed to be the poster character for custom specials. I always felt like she was designed with moves like Super Speed and Lightweight in mind, and her default move set being "bad" on purpose as a way to get people to use customs.
Saying there are no MU's worse than 65-35 is delusional. Meta Knight himself had a large number of hard counter 70-30 or worse MU's, many of which were floaties due to their physics ****ing them over against uairs (Rosa) and their generally slow recoveries (Luigi, Kirby). Meta Knight still has such advantageous MU's against Rosa and other floaties because uairs still work, and you could argue that these have actually gotten more favorable for him with the fair buff. His heavyweight MU's were easily 70-30 because all of them turned into punching bags. Bayonetta carries this on, and hard counters a large number of characters, particularly larger-sized characters.
vs floaties, particularly , and an honorable mention to for getting paid to die offstage vs vs vs anyone big and with bad landing options vs, but there are some miserable MU's still.
There is no way you can try fighting a competent Bayonetta as certain characters and say that there aren't blowout matchups in this game. There are definitely 70-30s without Bayo, but I'm not sure if anyone outside of her has MUs that are more lopsided than that. I doubt Ganon-Bayo would ever be remotely decent simply because I don't think Bullet Climax is getting nerfed soon, and that move is insanely bad for Ganon while not being that much of an issue for most chars. Wizkick can beat it at midrange, but it's still not that scary, while Bayo's ability to punish after baiting it out is, and will be as long as her design is combo-based.
D3 almost certainly loses 30-70 or worse. DK I don't know. Bowser doesn't do too badly, since he does respectably well in neutral thanks to Tough Guy ignoring Bullet Climax, and Bayonetta's physics make her pretty vulnerable to his throw combos. Disadvantage is bad news for him as always, but his strengths elsewhere are very effective in this MU, and give him a decent shot at winning. Charizard I'd guess is either 35-65 or 40-60 against her, as he has the right tools and mobility to actually play the MU, but doesn't punish as hard as Bowser and is a big target. If he can DI out of ceiling combos and punish with Fly with any degree of reliability that could help, but I haven't really labbed that stuff.
Player skill is a thing, though.
TTTTTsd
Well for sureTry Wario vs Cloud if you think there are no 3/7 matchups in this game.
OK, let's be real for a moment here. Which ten characters are actually legitimtately worse than Doctor Mario? Don't forget that between the first time Doc started to get some positive attention, two patches have dropped that buffed Bowser, Robin, Marth, Lucina and Charizard among the characters that are in competition here.
Also, enjoy arguing with the mains of the characters you bring up because chances are that they'll have the same attitude that most players have: "I understand some characters *have* to be bottom 10 but certainly not mine!" I don't know who I'd put in bottom 10 to keep Doc out of there, Doc *is* pretty bad and sub mid-tier.
are all worse. is very likely there. is in bottom 10 in my opinion; he has a similar playstyle to Doc, and both suffer from poor mobility. However, Doc gets more reward with actual kill confirms, though this advantage is offset by his worse recovery, so it's hard to tell who's worse. So that's 6 other than Doc in bottom 10.
I'm pretty sure that Roy isn't Bottom 10 in my opinion ( Totally not biased /s) Especially when you look at the Roy result thread where Neath do extremely well in France and is 11Th in the french PR where Top-tiers are everywhereWell for sure
I think a large deal of it is the bomb play differences, general bomb differences, and the fact that both Mario and Doc have ridiculously nutty frame data (with Doc's being slightly worse only because of Dair, but all of his moves bar Dair, Nair and Uair are objectively better than Mario's anyways so it offsets itself). Link's frame data is kinda bleh and I mean his mobility isn't astoundingly terrible but Doc is carried pretty hard by his moveset tbh.
Again....People don't know what they think they do....so trying to convince those who don't even play/have any knowledge of Link....good luck.
That's the wonderful thing with this smash game.
Interesting. Do you have any tournament sets from him? I'd like to see some top-level Roy play.
Yes. In fact, I think Link's bombs are better.
Pretty much been the contrary for me.
This pretty much goes back to the "someone has to be bottom tier" reasoning. While I'm sure Roy does have some results (considering someone like Ganon does), his theory is bad. Little Mac is considered bottom 15, and for largely the same reasons as Roy--poor disadvantage thanks to being combo food with a lack of landing options and a poor recovery, so going by this, I think it is safe to say Roy is bottom 10, but at the higher end of it. But, hey, Smash 4 bottom 10 isn't as bad a Melee or Brawl bottom 10...
Who says that? Most people think Mario is high tier and Doc is low-mid, which is probably about right. The only thing at play here is Link's low tier stigma, when he isn't really one. Both of them have around 15 or so chars worse than them imo, namely
. (Most of these characters I don't actually think are that bad so it shouldn't be taken as a slight)
But then we have another problem.
and)
Well, I guess that's a sad reality of tier lists. But of course there are characters who break this rule and explode into the higher tiers (But then we have another problem.
When somebody want to actively enter the scene to win, they will look to the better character, or high tier in the tiers list. But then at this moment the metagame of other character kind of freeze because nobody want to play them, and it's sad, especialy in a game like Smash4 where the gap between each tiers is small, But this gap might grow because of the freezing metagame of certain character thanks to the player wanting to play the highest tiers.
( I especialy think of
But sometime miracle can happen
). pre-patch as well as MK despite her being better, and that's because that play style didn't suit me. But then this brings up another point: multiple characters share the same play style, and of course, some will rank higher than others, so there's often little reason to play a low-tier when a high-tier has that same play style you're looking for. : you want a fast, combo-centric swordsman? MK is better. You want a long-ranged swordsman? Cloud and Ike are there, along with most other swordsmen. You want a hard-hitting swordsman? Well, Cloud and Ike are there again.
I guess that when you played 3 year of melee withWell, I guess that's a sad reality of tier lists. But of course there are characters who break this rule and explode into the higher tiers (
It should be noted that players don't just look at a tier placement and decide; play style preference also matters. I couldn't play
That sadly hurts a lot of characters, including
, can't feel like a bottom tier.
~ Gheb ~
Link definitely has a lot of characters he definitely surpasses, up to the point where he should be considered a middle tier. However, your thoughts of Falco and Samus being worse than him are indefinitely incorrect; Samus can be worse than him in the MU, but overall, Samus is better than Link, and Falco is probably around the same placement as Link. However, Link is most likely a lower middle tier character who can be around the 28th to 33rd positions, whereas I believe Samus would be around 23rd to 27th and Falco around 29th to 35th. I'll have to explain later when I'm at home and can do an in-depth of Samus, Link and Falco, who all three I main the most out of my 10 primaries.Who says that? Most people think Mario is high tier and Doc is low-mid, which is probably about right. The only thing at play here is Link's low tier stigma, when he isn't really one. Both of them have around 15 or so chars worse than them imo, namely
I think Sheik is still a bad MU for Luigi because of her dominance in Luigi, and her ability to still wall Luigi out with Needles and f-air. Luigi just cannot contest with those moves :/
No disrespect to this man Neath....
Luigi just isn't that great now. He's average with exploitable flaws. He's got strengths and he has weaknesses.Y2Kay
Then why did they even nerf him in the first place. They probably should have thought about actual compensation for the character.
It's not like his overturned reward existed post-patch . . . Oh wait
