Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BunbUn129]

True, but what I'm saying is that his options in neutral seems to be too good for his character weakness and design. The character can be compared to G&W, who is also considered a glass cannon but lacks the range, endlag, and kill power of Mew2.

Also, for how insanely good Aba is, he doesn't exactly get dominating results in Japan. And like I said, he was never able to pull of what he did in Pound VI with an "extremely overtuned" character like MK.

Mew2's neutral is too good for his weaknesses and character design, especially because he has a working kill confirm setup from an aerial with big range (n-air), multiple/lasting hitboxes, good startup frames for an aerial attack, and barely any landing lag, which is just ridiculous. Characters that similarly fit Mew2's role of glass cannon (i.e. G&W) do not have nearly as many options or power/strength as Mew2 has in the neutral.

Aba's Meta Knight play wasn't optimal, first of all. Yeah, he had his uair combos and jab locks and other punishes down, but look past that, and you can see a pretty one-dimensional neutral game. Whereas Leo uses all options available from perfect pivoting to dair to d tilt to f smash, Aba's neutral boiled down mostly to roll-ins, sitting in shield, and throwing out dash attacks. Basically, he remained grounded and wasn't really capable of mixing up his approach, which is essential for MK as he can't cheese his way through neutral.

Aba's neutral wasn't bad per se, but his neutral was not good, and this was the reason for his lackluster G3 performance, which exposed his short-comings as a player. His success with Meta Knight was due to how consistent his punishes were, but the holes in his neutral meant that he could only do well if he didn't run into a good Sheik or Diddy in bracket.

And this is where your reasoning for Mewtwo falls apart. Aba never played Meta Knight to his full potential, while his Mewtwo play is simply more optimal. He ironically abuses M2's neutral options, mainly with charging and camping with Shadow Ball and poking safely with d tilt. M2's neutral is supposed to be played just like that--raw, boring, and lame. Good God, imagine if his neutral with Meta Knight was this effective!

Pre-nerf Meta Knight was in another league from post-buff M2. 1.1.4 MK had everything M2 had but with a far better disadvantage state and better survivability and frame data, and this is still the case for the most part. If you're trying to make a case for an M2 nerf because he's more overtuned than pre-patch MK, I have to question your sanity.

Pre-patch Meta Knight had no meaningful weakness (sound familiar?) and a blatantly unfair punish game along with a good neutral and excellent disadvantage--but why wasn't this a huge problem, though? Because he had an 8-2 MU with the best character in the game. Sheik was the only character who could actually exploit MK's weaknesses and shut down his best options. A lot of people don't realize how beneficial the Sheik MU was for the meta game, because it was the only thing that stood in his way from contending for #1 and becoming a serious problem. Look at the whole Bayo drama and imagine if MK wasn't nerfed. We would now have two characters being banned in regions.

On the other hand, M2 is a paper-juggernaut who's light, big, susceptible to combos and doesn't have the best landing options, and these overall balance out a moveset that would be completely broken on a character who didn't suffer from such issues.

 

[420quickscoper]

True, but what I'm saying is that his options in neutral seems to be too good for his character weakness and design. The character can be compared to G&W, who is also considered a glass cannon but lacks the range, endlag, and kill power of Mew2.

Also, for how insanely good Aba is, he doesn't exactly get dominating results in Japan. And like I said, he was never able to pull of what he did in Pound VI with an "extremely overtuned" character like MK.

Mew2's neutral is too good for his weaknesses and character design, especially because he has a working kill confirm setup from an aerial with big range (n-air), multiple/lasting hitboxes, good startup frames for an aerial attack, and barely any landing lag, which is just ridiculous. Characters that similarly fit Mew2's role of glass cannon (i.e. G&W) do not have nearly as many options or power/strength as Mew2 has in the neutral.

Yet Mewtwo has light weight, tall height, bad out of shield game, terrible aerial acceleration, overall mediocre disadvantage, a blindspot behind him, and bad startup frame data.

I think that's enough to make him balanced with the really good tools he has...

It's also noteworthy that his mobility buffs were very needed. Glass cannons, really just... don't work if they don't have speed.

The thing is, look at a top tier glass cannon right now; Fox. Fox has pretty impressive speed and power.
Now, Mewtwo had the power and the punish game to deal out good damage, but the problem was he just lacked speed to really get the job done.

Actually, when you think about it, a good number of top tiers are glass cannons one way or another.
And glass cannons are more than just "Oh, I can be hit hard but I also hit you hard"
There's good examples of where characters are more like "Oh, I can be hit hard but I have a lot of very good tools to make up for it".
For example, ZSS, Sheik, and Fox, who all happen to be lightweights.
Now, pre patch Mewtwo was more like
"Oh, I can be hit hard, and I can hit you hard back but since that a lot of characters outspeed me so bad due to my frame data and dash speed I can't get those hits in and it's so overwhelming for me"

See the difference? Glass cannons really just don't go well without speed.
Now, present day Mewtwo...
"Oh, you can kill me early, cool, but I have a huge arsenal of tools. I also have pretty low end and landing lag, and I'm the 7th fastest character now. Fight me."

TL;DR To make Mewtwo an effective glass cannon, the best buff you can give him is speed.

To me Mewtwo fits the bill of how good everyone should be. To me, he is at the perfect balance.

 

[Amadeus9]

Aba's Meta Knight play wasn't optimal, first of all. Yeah, he had his uair combos and jab locks and other punishes down, but look past that, and you can see a pretty one-dimensional neutral game. Whereas Leo uses all options available from perfect pivoting to dair to d tilt to f smash, Aba's neutral boiled down mostly to roll-ins, sitting in shield, and throwing out dash attacks. Basically, he remained grounded and wasn't really capable of mixing up his approach, which is essential for MK as he can't cheese his way through neutral.

Aba's neutral wasn't bad per se, but his neutral was not good, and this was the reason for his lackluster G3 performance, which exposed his short-comings as a player. His success with Meta Knight was due to how consistent his punishes were, but the holes in his neutral meant that he could only do well if he didn't run into a good Sheik or Diddy in bracket.

And this is where your reasoning for Mewtwo falls apart. Aba never played Meta Knight to his full potential, while his Mewtwo play is simply more optimal. He ironically abuses M2's neutral options, mainly with charging and camping with Shadow Ball and poking safely with d tilt. M2's neutral is supposed to be played just like that--raw, boring, and lame. Good God, imagine if his neutral with Meta Knight was this effective!

Pre-nerf Meta Knight was in another league from post-buff M2. 1.1.4 MK had everything M2 had but with a far better disadvantage state and better survivability and frame data, and this is still the case for the most part. If you're trying to make a case for an M2 nerf because he's more overtuned than pre-patch MK, I have to question your sanity.

Pre-patch Meta Knight had no meaningful weakness and a blatantly unfair punish game along with a good neutral and excellent disadvantage--but why wasn't this a huge problem, though? Because he had an 8-2 MU with the best character in the game. Sheik was the only character who could actually exploit MK's weaknesses and shut down his best options. A lot of people don't realize how beneficial the Sheik MU was for the meta game, because it was the only thing that stood in his way from contending for #1 and becoming a serious problem. Look at the whole Bayo drama and imagine if MK wasn't nerfed. We would now have two characters being banned in regions.

On the other hand, M2 is a paper-juggernaut who's light, big, susceptible to combos and doesn't have the best landing options, and these overall balance out a moveset that would be completely broken on a character who didn't suffer from such issues.

It's been a meme among most of us MK's for a while that Aba didn't play MK, he played upair. Him dropping the character right after the nerf is almost poetic

 

[BunbUn129]

It's been a meme among most of us MK's for a while that Aba didn't play MK, he played upair. Him dropping the character right after the nerf is almost poetic

I woke up that day and read Meta Knight's uair was nerfed. And my immediate reaction was: "Aba is goin'."

 

[Peppermint1201]

Kirby goes even with and beats at least.

I can almost guarantee that that is untrue for ROB. ROB beats Kirby at least to some extent due to his nair's "range," and his great projectile game which isn't actually contested by Kirby's crouch. Kirby can't really effectively take advantage of ROB's disadvantage because of how slowly he moves upward and the excessive knockback on his upair. He has a good uptilt but that alone doesn't win matchups. All of those other character claims seem sketchy to me as well, particularly about .

 

[Fatmanonice]

Toon Link outclasses Link in a lot of ways but the gap isn't anywhere as atrocious as it was in Brawl. Link isn't a total blow off in this game. Things that Link has going for him:

-Great grab set ups.
-Hylian shield gives him a niche against zoners.
-Great range.
-No issues with killing given that even basic things like ftilt and utilt can reasonably kill.
-Fairly heavy but surprisingly decent landing options for a heavyweight.
-Very versatile projectiles.

Things going against him:

-Slow as balls on the ground and in the air.
-Approach options aren't the greatest.
-Offstage game is still highly risky and one dimensional.
-Probably still in top 5 easiest characters to gimp/edgeguard.
-Super vulnerable grab.

If it's any consolation, he's a lot better than he was in Brawl because Link in Brawl was a broken mess. His biggest issues are still definitely mobility related. With all this considered, I'm not exactly sure where I'd rank him. He's definitely low tier but, personally, I think he's better than Roy at the very least.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sorry for takin' the bait, but I've had enough of this. Just this once, I'll nip it in a bud.

Seriously a death conversion from Footstools?

Mewtwo is not the only one with conversions off of footstools. Footstool conversion are really situational and niche - like anyways.

He has weaknesses but his strong points have been overtuned too much and he has received too many mobility buffs to make his overtuned options even more dominating.

Spain should be banning Mew2, not Bayo lol.

Why do you just gloss over Mewtwo's weaknesses like that, and proceed to call him broken? Mewtwo has awful ground traction, light weight, mediocre OOS game, small grab range, a serious blindspot behind him that makes him vulnerable to crossups, light weight, big frame, mediocre frame data, awful air acceleration and gravity, light weight . . .

His strengths that help make up for this are definitely justified.

Spain jokes are absolutely pathetic, by the way.

True, but what I'm saying is that his options in neutral seems to be too good for his character weakness and design.

From a spectator view, Mewtwo may look a little cheesy, but playing Mewtwo can be extremely stressful.

Little every button press is a commitment. When you decide to go for a move, you have to accept that if you're read or get punished for it, you'll feel the sting of your bad choice A LOT.

The threat that a few wrong moves can have you pushing up daisies in a heart beat is all too real.

Mew2's neutral is too good for his weaknesses and character design, especially because he has a working kill confirm setup from an aerial with big range (n-air)

First of all, Nair has awful range, literally any move with good range will win a trade with it. Next, Nair FS Disable is not a good kill setup. Nair hit boxes are so weird, you can't reliably make the target land in front of you for a footstool. And to compound onto this, the input for FS disable is really tough too.

Also, for how insanely good Aba is, he doesn't exactly get dominating results in Japan. And like I said, he was never able to pull of what he did in Pound VI with an "extremely overtuned" character like MK.

like BunbUn129 and Amadeus9 have stated, he doesn't play a very optimal Metaknight. He wasn't as fundamentals driven like Leo and Tyrant are, but mainly searched for oppurtunites to land the hellavator.

It seems like literally everything you know about Mewtwo is based off of Abadango's POUND giffycats . . . just stop.

 

[Yonder]

I think Sheik is still a bad MU for Luigi because of her dominance in Luigi, and her ability to still wall Luigi out with Needles and f-air. Luigi just cannot contest with those moves :/

Actually I don't think Luigi has too many problems with representation. Besides Con Con there is Poke, Boss, DMG James, and others (I have no idea if Shel and LOE1 still play Luigi or dropped him for other characters. Can someone clarify?). Of course Con Con is likely by far the best Luigi, but other high level Luigis do exist and they do travel. For example at the most recent U.S. national (Pound VI), there were DMG James and Boss in attendance. The results, however, were rather disappointing: Boss drowned in pools and James got 25th, which is not really something to write home about (especially for a character that is still considered to have "multitude of options and a potent grab game" by many people in the community and this thread). Luigi got outplaced by characters like Megaman and Marth, who are both considered to be worse than Luigi by many people.

I think J.Miller got top 2 actually, being beaten by Ixis (Sonic Main who is currently power-ranked #1 in London). And yea, Con Con got 25th at EVO 2015 IIRC.

I agree that his results were lacking from the start. Too many characters that can shut him down in neutral means his grab threat becomes significantly less threatening. Even at Apex his top placements were 17th (J.Miller using only Luigi) and 13th (False dual-maining Luigi and Sheik at that time). Results were lackluster from the beginning, and because of the nerf results are even worse at all levels of gameplay (especially mid and high).

Sakurai please fix this character.

Luigi is average, which is fine for me. He is still in the top 15 for tourney results in March so that's not terrible. Aside from J miller',s work that I've seen, dunno if it still holds pre patch, he isn't viable solo. Ahh well, Luigi is still great in locals and a fantastic pocket character. He does well vs Mario, Fox, Diddy, and Pikachu, all high/top tier threats. When I play him, I know what archetype I'm playing: An extremely potent upclose brawler who struggles to get in. He still can rack up crazy damage with D throw and fireballs are still decent. He struggles to kill I find coupled with his low mobility. If Luigi was to get buffed, I would say give green missile more priority, an air speed increase, and buff the knockback of f and D smash even more to Brawl levels. Or make his f tilt worthwhile although idk how they could do that. They could make D tilt trip more often and extrend the range more.

I think Luigi is a fine middle tier. I knew this was coming even before the nerfs: People would realize he is just too damn slow with little range to compensate. The metagame shifted like in Brawl, speed is the name of the game and mobility. That's why M2 soars up in tiers and Luigi plummets. Almost like Luigi syndrome: people think they are amazing at first and then they are not. Bowser suffered from this a bit too in Brawl and Smash 4. Luigi can hold his own vs most of the cast though so that's good enough for me, counterpick as appropriate like when versing Cloud, for example. Luigi can use some buffs like I listed above (#1 buff would be airspeed increased) but others could use them first.

 

[Baffled Buffoon]

Kirby goes even with and beats at least..

I thought the Lucario match-up was bad for Kirby due to Aura killing Kirby really early. Why do you think Kirby beats Lucario?

 

[S_B]

I like how Link plays more. So I play him more than I play Toon Link.
I said almost.

But what the results and what the characters do show that TL is definitely an upgrade.

I pretty much agree with you.

Link is once again way worse than TL in this game, largely because TL's faster attacks and airspeed just make him a superior character overall.

 

[BunbUn129]

Also @R3D3MON I wouldn't call M2's death set-ups off of a footstool bad when you had and still have (to an extent) Meta Knight's easy footstools off of his up aerial and jab locks off of his back aerial. M2 has a footsool set-up that kills sub-100%? And it starts with a nair that sends opponents in random directions? Well, how about a whole lot of bull**** where MK could do d-throw -> bair at 0% and kill you at 60%? I know that 0-death was basically patched out, but come on!

And are you still upset over a nerf that happened 6 months ago?

 

[Amadeus9]

M2 has always been a pretty "lame" character by nature... It's just now that he's actually good people have an issue with it.

The thing is, it takes a very particular kind of player to play M2 + do well, which is almost completely due to his weight. Dying off incidental smashes at mid percents is not something I would consider a fun time. M2 pulls off the glass cannon archetype well in that he can body or get bodied, really he's now a pretty well designed fighter whereas he was kinda broken (in the bad way for M2) just a few short months ago.

But I challenge anyone who wants to call M2 OP to think about his Top tier MU's and then justify how a fighter that in theory loses to 4 or more of the top 10 CONSERVATIVELY is a broken fighter. Food for thought.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mewtwo is not the character you're looking for if you want to make a point about the importance of neutral. I would direct you more towards Diddy and Sheik, both decidedly better and safer characters. Mewtwo's neutral is really strong in its own right, but it's not close to the best in the game. He can't really weave well in spite of his high airspeed, and has a poor OOS game, meaning that aerial approaches tend to be a real commitment and he doesn't get as much as he'd like from what is generally the safest option in neutral. So while he has a very good neutral, he can't control the match with it in the way Sheik/Diddy can.

 

[Y2Kay]

Also @R3D3MON I wouldn't call M2's death set-ups off of a footstool bad when you had and still have (to an extent) Meta Knight's easy footstools off of his up aerial and jab locks off of his back aerial. M2 has a footsool set-up that kills sub-100%? And it starts with a nair that sends opponents in random directions? Well, how about a whole lot of bull**** where MK could do d-throw -> bair at 0% and kill you at 60%? I know that 0-death was basically patched out, but come on!

And are you still upset over a nerf that happened 6 months ago?

Abadango pulls off a footstoll death combo twice in the whole tourney, and now it's a crazy broken kill confim? lol

M2 has always been a pretty "lame" character by nature... It's just now that he's actually good people have an issue with it.

The thing is, it takes a very particular kind of player to play M2 + do well, which is almost completely due to his weight. Dying off incidental smashes at mid percents is not something I would consider a fun time. M2 pulls off the glass cannon archetype well in that he can body or get bodied, really he's now a pretty well designed fighter whereas he was kinda broken (in the bad way for M2) just a few short months ago.

But I challenge anyone who wants to call M2 OP to think about his Top tier MU's and then justify how a fighter that in theory loses to 4 or more of the top 10 CONSERVATIVELY is a broken fighter. Food for thought.

The only top tier I can think of that he definitively loses to are and they aren't even that bad, honestly (all are like 40:60 at worst, I've seen mewtwo's win this multiple times), the rest are even or better if you ask me.

 

[Amadeus9]

Abadango pulls off a footstoll death combo twice in the whole tourney, and now it's a crazy broken kill confim? lol


The only top tier I can think of that he definitively loses to are and they aren't even that bad, honestly (all are like 40:60 at worst, I've seen mewtwo's win this multiple times), the rest are even or better if you ask me.

Cloud and Bayo?

 

[BunbUn129]

Abadango pulls off a footstoll death combo twice in the whole tourney, and now it's a crazy broken kill confim? lol


The only top tier I can think of that he definitively loses to are and they aren't even that bad, honestly (all are like 40:60 at worst, I've seen mewtwo's win this multiple times), the rest are even or better if you ask me.

MK's footstool and jab lock combos weren't inherently broken, it's just that he got by far the most out of them while being *comparatively* easy to pull off.

 

[Y2Kay]

Cloud and Bayo?

both are even to me. maybeeeee they're losing, but Mew^2 took a massive dump on Mew2king, and Aba has a slain a few bayos already in Japan.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I can almost guarantee that that is untrue for ROB. ROB beats Kirby at least to some extent due to his nair's "range," and his great projectile game which isn't actually contested by Kirby's crouch. Kirby can't really effectively take advantage of ROB's disadvantage because of how slowly he moves upward and the excessive knockback on his upair. He has a good uptilt but that alone doesn't win matchups. All of those other character claims seem sketchy to me as well, particularly about .

Kirby goes even with ROB because Kirby can easily gimp Rob and he can easily combo Rob due to his big hurtbox. Rob's projectiles aren't as good versus Kirby as people say they are. Lasers are crap since Kirby can duck under many of them and when he can't, he still has the copy ability to due it aganist Rob and plus, much of the time you're shield or dodge it. Rob's the 3rd most overrated character in the game hough so nobody will listen...

I thought the Lucario match-up was bad for Kirby due to Aura killing Kirby really early. Why do you think Kirby beats Lucario?

Theorticitally you would think it is, But Lucario's startup on smashes means that whiffing it means that Kirby can get a throw on him if you shielded it, causing a good combo on him (Well duh) but mainly, at high percents Kirby can get an up throw. It's pretty easy to grab a Lucario using his smashes, so kill throws are very effective aganist Lucario in general, and Kirby is no exception. Kirby has up throw which helps with aura. Plus Kirby has the copy ability, which means he has his own aura for that move and it's even harder for Lucario to smash him since Kirby has the same Aura sphere move that makes it hard to approach Lucario at times. Plus, Kirby can easily ginp Lucario.

Balance patches making Kirby's inhale better, improving his weight, and most importantly, removing his killing problem, espicially with the kill throw, made this matchup WAY better for Kirby. This matchup is probably the one that has been most improved for Kirby because of that due to these changes. This matchup would be probably be one of Kirby's worst if it weren't for the balance patches

 

[Amadeus9]

both are even to me. maybeeeee they're losing, but Mew^2 took a massive dump on Mew2king, and Aba has a slain a few bayos already in Japan.

Dude I'm trying to help you argue your "M2 isnt OP" case, could at least throw me a bone

 

[TurboLink]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that Mewtwo goes even with Cloud. That was one match and M2K probably wasn't even familiar with the matchup.

 

[Y2Kay]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that Mewtwo goes even with Cloud. That was one match and M2K probably wasn't familiar with the matchup.

I know . . . . but it was three frickin games. And the dude couldn't even take a stock off of him.

 

[G. Stache]

You know, it would be possible to make Luigi good without the d throw again. Not that I want to turn this thread into: "jeez I wish my main was better." But since I see Luigi drama get brought up every month, perhaps Sakurai can maybe find this thread and this specific post (assuming he can read English) and make these precise changes. And hell, maybe we can get all the elusive fairies that we call the dev team and they can sprinkle magical buff dust on all the good little low and mid tiers across the land. Kidding aside, this is what I'd do with good ol' Luigi so he's better...but not too "jank".

- buff Nairs ending lag from 14 to like 10 or 8 frames (don't know why Nintendo made the move have so much landing lag)

-make weak Nairs KBG go from 100 (I think that's what it is) to around 75 or 80ish

- revert cyclone to its original form (they nerfed it when it was really d throw that was the problem. It was the only nerf that was totally unwarranted imo). Hell, maybe shave off a few frames of cyclones end lag for good measure

At this point, Luigi should in theory have a solid kill confirm again at a good range of percents, but off a weak Nair. And you'd need to hit this weak Nair in neutral with something like Luigi's SH (Key word: Luigi's. One of the most committal SHs in the game). This way he still has a solid way to kill if he hits with the Nair...but unlike grab fishing, hitting with Nair takes a lot of commitment and thinking.

-buff all aerials by 2% (sweet and sourspots both) so damage wracking and trading, two things that I feel Luigi does well in, gets even better.

-Finally, just buff smashes a bit so they can kill earlier. Only asking for like a ~3 increase in each of their KBG. I believe rage would help these smashes kill around 6% earlier in average. Slight damage buffs wouldn't go amiss either.

Luigi, imo, is fine where he is now. But these buffs would make him perfect without people having a valid reason to complain about him. These buffs would make his challenge to get in totally validated. Of course I WANT other things like cyclone being a lot easier to mash (so I don't need to have a spasm to get some significant lift), or mobility buffs. But I really want Luigi to be a fairly polarized character (average neutral and fantastic advantage) to Mario's well balanced spread. I think that's what they were going for. Just making that a tad more obvious would never hurt.


That all being said, I can understand if Luigi doesn't get these kinds of buffs and I can deal with this Luigi. Buff the low tiers before you try to work on Luigi, is what I say. I guess I'm just a tad upset that Nintendo can buff other solid mid tiers (Greninja, M2, etc.) while ignoring Luigi and other mid tiers that could also just use a tiny little boost. But hey, I'll just be trudging along. I can't stress enough, though. And this goes for everyone: if you're salty about your character/you're here to win and you think that your character is bad: just drop him. Seriously, if you feel that certain way then you're just gonna hold yourself back with that certain character. Pick up somebody better. The world's not going to end because you decided not to be a character loyalist. If I didn't think Luigi was a good (and fun) character to play as at this point, then I'd definitely drop him for someone like Cloud. If you're not having fun with your character and if you're not winning with your character...then there's no reason to keep on using said character, is there? This isn't being said with bile of any sort, just actual advice. Go and try someone new. There's 57 other characters in this game. There's bound to be another one that you like.

 

[BunbUn129]

I think the landing lag on Luigi's nair is sort of justified considering it hits on frame 3 and deals 12% clean, and probably to stop nair -> Up b from becoming brain-dead.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo is not the character you're looking for if you want to make a point about the importance of neutral. I would direct you more towards Diddy and Sheik, both decidedly better and safer characters. Mewtwo's neutral is really strong in its own right, but it's not close to the best in the game. He can't really weave well in spite of his high airspeed, and has a poor OOS game, meaning that aerial approaches tend to be a real commitment and he doesn't get as much as he'd like from what is generally the safest option in neutral. So while he has a very good neutral, he can't control the match with it in the way Sheik/Diddy can.

I disagree kinda. Mewtwo has a very high emphasis on footsies, I feel. His neutral may not be better than those examples, but I think the importance of not losing neutral is life or death for him, more so than other characters.

Mewtwo has great neutral tools like high speed, down tilt, Shadow Ball (charge), and Phased aerials. However, if he loses neutral he can take a potentially fatal amount of damage for it. Limiting you time in Mewtwo's bad disadvantage state is the most important thing when playing as him. A Mewtwo main needs to have good footsies play above all else, or (s)he will have a hard time beating anyone. I know this is technically true for all the characters, but this point can't be stressed enough with Mewtwo in particular.

 

[Baffled Buffoon]

Theorticitally you would think it is, But Lucario's startup on smashes means that whiffing it means that Kirby can get a throw on him if you shielded it, causing a good combo on him (Well duh) but mainly, at high percents Kirby can get an up throw. It's pretty easy to grab a Lucario using his smashes, so kill throws are very effective aganist Lucario in general, and Kirby is no exception. Kirby has up throw which helps with aura. Plus Kirby has the copy ability, which means he has his own aura for that move and it's even harder for Lucario to smash him since Kirby has the same Aura sphere move that makes it hard to approach Lucario at times. Plus, Kirby can easily ginp Lucario.

Balance patches making Kirby's inhale better, improving his weight, and most importantly, removing his killing problem, espicially with the kill throw, made this matchup WAY better for Kirby. This matchup is probably the one that has been most improved for Kirby because of that due to these changes. This matchup would be probably be one of Kirby's worst if it weren't for the balance patches

Lucario with aura does not need smashes to kill kirby early. Getting the copy ability is not too terribly hard, but it still is annoying to get. Also range is an issue so getting to grab Lucario for the up throw kill can be challenging for Kirby. I'm not really seeing this as a winning match up for kirby.

 

[G. Stache]

I think the landing lag on Luigi's nair is sort of justified considering it hits on frame 3 and deals 12% clean, and probably to stop nair -> Up b from becoming brain-dead.

Kinda, but you can DI Nair. Kinda like how d throw into up b was a thing, but everyone and their mom can move their controller left or right so up b can't connect. Same thing should happen with Nair. If your opponent is physically capable to DI, then Luigi can only afford to go with moves like Bair and Cyclone because of Luigi's hilarious airspeed and up b's tiny sweetspot (plus, aerial up b's sweetspot isn't nearly as strong as the grounded one, so aerial up b is not worth anyways).

 

[Peppermint1201]

Kirby goes even with ROB because Kirby can easily gimp Rob and he can easily combo Rob due to his big hurtbox. Rob's projectiles aren't as good versus Kirby as people say they are. Lasers are crap since Kirby can duck under many of them and when he can't, he still has the copy ability to due it aganist Rob and plus, much of the time you're shield or dodge it. Rob's the 3rd most overrated character in the game hough so nobody will listen...

"Kirby can duck over many lasers" is a non argument because any ROB will always angle theirs down vs Kirby, which allows them to beat crouch. the end. Also, Gyro is a completely valid projectile option which travels at an arc that can hit crouching Kirby when it comes from the down-b instead of being thrown as an item.

You overestimate Kirby's ability to gimp ROB -- he can act out of up-b with aerials and defend himself from Kirby's. It's still possible but not as easy as you may think. Kirby will get few opportunities to even attempt as well due to ROB's commanding stage control in the matchup.

As I mentioned in my post, Kirby's combo game is mediocre and doesnt effectively take advantage of ROB's disadvantage. Furthermore, it is primarily grab-based and ROB is one of the most effective anti-grab characters in the game.

 

[Nobie]

Kirby goes even with ROB because Kirby can easily gimp Rob and he can easily combo Rob due to his big hurtbox. Rob's projectiles aren't as good versus Kirby as people say they are. Lasers are crap since Kirby can duck under many of them and when he can't, he still has the copy ability to due it aganist Rob and plus, much of the time you're shield or dodge it. Rob's the 3rd most overrated character in the game hough so nobody will listen...


Theorticitally you would think it is, But Lucario's startup on smashes means that whiffing it means that Kirby can get a throw on him if you shielded it, causing a good combo on him (Well duh) but mainly, at high percents Kirby can get an up throw. It's pretty easy to grab a Lucario using his smashes, so kill throws are very effective aganist Lucario in general, and Kirby is no exception. Kirby has up throw which helps with aura. Plus Kirby has the copy ability, which means he has his own aura for that move and it's even harder for Lucario to smash him since Kirby has the same Aura sphere move that makes it hard to approach Lucario at times. Plus, Kirby can easily ginp Lucario.

Balance patches making Kirby's inhale better, improving his weight, and most importantly, removing his killing problem, espicially with the kill throw, made this matchup WAY better for Kirby. This matchup is probably the one that has been most improved for Kirby because of that due to these changes. This matchup would be probably be one of Kirby's worst if it weren't for the balance patches

I don't think Kirby gets Aura. When he absorbs Lucario's power, he gets a flat 17% Aura Sphere.

 

[Wintermelon43]

"Kirby can duck over many lasers" is a non argument because any ROB will always angle theirs down vs Kirby, which allows them to beat crouch. the end.


You overestimate Kirby's ability to gimp ROB -- he can act out of up-b with aerials and defend himself from Kirby's. It's still possible but not as easy as you may think.

As I mentioned in my post, Kirby's combo game is mediocre and doesnt effectively take advantage of ROB's disadvantage. Furthermore, it is primarily grab-based and ROB is one of the most effective anti-grab characters in the game.

"Combo game mediocre" Kirby has great combo ability. Kirby has combos apart from his throws because of Rob's big hurtbox.

Also, chances are the lasers won't go exactatly where Kirby goes.

Lucario with aura does not need smashes to kill kirby early. Getting the copy ability is not too terribly hard, but it still is annoying to get. Also range is an issue so getting to grab Lucario for the up throw kill can be challenging for Kirby. I'm not really seeing this as a winning match up for kirby.

Well, Lucario only has (Apart from read smashes obvisualy, but they are unsafe on shields) up air, side b, and possibly back air. Up air won't be able to hit Kirby on many occasions, but it still exists. Side B is pretty bad for Kirby but then again, Lucario easily kills like everyone in the game.

I don't think Kirby gets Aura. When he absorbs Lucario's power, he gets a flat 17% Aura Sphere.

Wait wut.. I swear Aura Sphere does more when Kirby is at higher percent O_O

 

[TurboLink]

Wait wut.. I swear Aura Sphere does more when Kirby is at higher percent O_O

More knockback? That's probably rage.

 

[Peppermint1201]

"Combo game mediocre" Kirby has great combo ability. Kirby has combos apart from his throws because of Rob's big hurtbox.

Also, chances are the lasers won't go exactatly where Kirby goes.

Kirby is no Mario or Diddy. His aerials and mobility are not very conducive to improvising combos, even against ROB. As for your second point, that's true for like any projectile.

 

[Amadeus9]

"Combo game mediocre" Kirby has great combo ability. Kirby has combos apart from his throws because of Rob's big hurtbox.

Also, chances are the lasers won't go exactatly where Kirby goes.

Well, Lucario only has (Apart from read smashes obvisualy, but they are unsafe on shields) up air, side b, and possibly back air. Up air won't be able to hit Kirby on many occasions, but it still exists. Side B is pretty bad for Kirby but then again, Lucario easily kills like everyone in the game.


Wait wut.. I swear Aura Sphere does more when Kirby is at higher percent O_O

Lucario's upair is as good as the whole kit of a few fighters in this game lol. I don't see how Mr. Can't-get-in-on-anyone-to-save-his-life (kirby, fyi) gets himself in on any decent lucario. And even if you're doing high damage to him kirby can only kill on a read whereas lucario can properly combo into kill moves lol. AND he's perfectly fine with camping w/ aura sphere. AKA how is this MU not a hard counter in lucario's favor?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Discussion begins
http://youtu.be/C48RngtqwwI

 

[Wintermelon43]

Kirby is no Mario or Diddy. His aerials and mobility are not very conducive to improvising combos, even against ROB. As for your second point, that's true for like any projectile.

He still can start the combos at least, it's just harder.

Also, the lasers are way worse than any projectile in terms of not hitting where you need it to hit. They hit just a tiny little bit of the ground when angled that way. Lasers aren't that good in general due to this and the chargeing mechanic.

Lucario's upair is as good as the whole kit of a few fighters in this game lol.

All I needed to hear. lol no.

Edit:Just realized, I don't think I ever said why Kirby won't always get hit by up air, did I? If I didn't, it's because Kirby won't usually be right above Lucario that often unless Lucario is off-stage recovering, where he is vulnerable. It's still a good option whenever Kirby is above Lucario though.

 

[|RK|]

lol wut? Honestly, I think Mewtwo is balanced how the entire cast should be balanced tbh. Basicially a character with great strengths, such as killing early and great edgeguarding, but with pretty good flaws, such as a big hurtbox and low weight. which makes him easy to kill. He also has some other strengths and flaws mixed in, but with more strengths over flaws so that you almost never feel like your character is screwing you up.

Do people not want any characters to win a national? lol


Since when has there been a Kid Goggles bandwagon?

But srrsly, I would put Kirby around 37th-40th. He has great strengths, such as great throws, amazing combos, good aierals, great tilts, and good edgeguarding, but has a significant flaw in which his bad range and bad approach gives him a bad neutral, which extrmely hurts his viability.

Matchup spread wise, Kirby's is one of the most interesting ones. For top/top-high tiers, I'd say it goes like this:

-3:

-2:

-1:

0:

Ness is either -1 or 0, not sure. General consensus for both Kirby and Ness mains seem to be 0.

Many top players think Kirby does better though. American Foxes such as Larry Lurr and Xzax seem to think Kirby beats Fox.

Kirby goes even with and beats at least.

Kirby has randomly good matchups aganist certain top and high tiers, but then he gets destroyed by and does bad aganist (The Donkey Kong matchup isn't that bad in theory, probably -1 but in results it's one of the worst, like -3.I guess this makes it -2). But then has those even/advantage matchups aganist , and I've heard people say he goes even with too.

Kinda crazy matchup spread, but I think it's solid overall.

For results, Kirby's is pretty solid, about as good as his general theory. He has Mikekirby mostly, with 13th at glitch. 5th at a KTAR, the Hawaii tournaments, and of course, the kid goggles thing.


I think he's garbage and easily bottom 10. Terrible frame data, bad recovey, many bad attacks, extremely bad mobility, and one of the worst (Apart from his matchup aganist Villager) matchup spreads in the game.

I hate that people assume Link isn't bottom 10 because of his results, I mean results are important and all but theory means more and he has garbage theory.

Lucario is definitely not in Kirby's favor. It's not his worst matchup, but still.

Also, results mean way more than theory.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Discussion begins
http://youtu.be/C48RngtqwwI

Oh please no...

Not Bidou again.......

Lucario is definitely not in Kirby's favor. It's not his worst matchup, but still.

Also, results mean way more than theory.

In what way? tier lists are on characters not players. Player perferance and skill play a part of stuff. Results just back up the theory a ton.

 

[Amadeus9]

He still can start the combos at least, it's just harder.

Also, the lasers are way worse than any projectile in terms of not hitting where you need it to hit. They hit just a tiny little bit of the ground when angled that way. Lasers aren't that good in general due to this and the chargeing mechanic.

All I needed to hear. lol no.

Edit:Just realized, I don't think I ever said why Kirby won't always get hit by up air, did I? If I didn't, it's because Kirby won't usually be right above Lucario that often unless Lucario is off-stage recovering, where he is vulnerable. It's still a good option whenever Kirby is above Lucario though.

You know lucario's uthrow exists, and Kirby's airspeed is abysmal-awful, right?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

What do you all think of wall jump ledge coverage? Seems like a very viable option

 

[Wintermelon43]

You know lucario's uthrow exists, and Kirby's airspeed is abysmal-awful, right?

Lucario's up throw doesn't really do anything so that doesn't change anything.

Also, Not sure how air speed screws the Lucario matchup up a ton.

Also, to prevent infractions, and out of curiosity, what are people's opinions of Duck Hunt? I think he is extremely underrated and that he isn't bottom 10, but is still low tier-ish. I think he has great potential though.

 

[Amadeus9]

What do you all think of wall jump ledge coverage? Seems like a very viable option

I think you lose WAY too much on 99% of fighters by using the bidou control scheme for it to be worth it, still. No tilt stick = very bad for many of this game's top tiers. You can't discuss this tech without considering this.

Oh also the tech needs to be "activated" before you use it. I.E. there is a certain level of commitment to it. Another thing that you really can't pass over.

As for the wall jump trump tech, it's neat i guess