Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Kaiduru Zeta]

Well I know the discussion has passed but for the whole "Mew2 OP or not OP" debate. He's not really OP. Of course I can't stand M2 sometimes since my characters don't do exactly well against him.(WFT v M2 is pain in the a** same with Rosa v M2 ughh) any who. He's got a perfect mesh of balance. He has amazing stuff but his ability to be knocked out earlier with some other few mistakes hinders him to be not OP. For the whole Kirby/Lucario debate I can't really speak on since it's such a rare MU that I haven't watched or experienced...

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't know about you, but I think any character that has to legitimately worry about Ganondorf has enough vulnerabilities to matter (even if Mewtwo can play around them).

Well Ganondorf does actually have high tier MUs where he can compete decently well in, but they tend to be on the lower end of high tier(Mario, Ness, MK) rather than top 5 chars, which are generally pretty rough. So that fact doesn't automatically mean Mewtwo isn't high tier, but I would say he's more likely to be in the lower half of top 15 than the upper half.

 

[BunbUn129]

Nobie

Everyone has to fear Ganondorf and respect his options because all he needs are a few good reads and you're dead. The problem with Ganondorf is, like every other low and bottom tier, he has no reliable way of landing anything without those reads. MK still recks Ganondorf (70-30 easily) and even then I still feel the ever-present threat of him getting that one read and landing that hit.

 

[Yikarur]

The thought process of some peopel are incredible shallow.
Mewtwo was not even a high tier contender for most people.
Then Abadango wins Pound and everyone screams Top Tier. What the ****?
Why are people so narrow-minded? it doesn't work that way.
Mewtwo is certainly a good character. It was annoying how people underrated Mewtwo heavily before. But now they are overrating him hard.
Mewtwo has problems that are not apparant on the first sight.
His super large hurtbox and his low weight are obvious.
His DJ doesn't have the function of other people's DJ. He cannot escape combos with his DJ alone like other characters do, which is in combination with his large hurtbox is definitely a disadvantage.
His airdodge is overrated as well. While it is the best airdodge in the game, it's still just an airdodge. You can punish airdodges easily if you have the timing down. If you are up close there are no tags visible which makes it a bit harder. But you can CP Duck Hunt or Gamer Omega to completely nullfy that advantage. (Tags don't vanish there)
Mewtwos doesn't have any strong close-range out of shield options (except grab) so his gameplan overall is this strong space-zoning game.
I think Mewtwo is a solid high tier but he is not suddenly "one of the very best characters" in the game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man, I adore this thread so much. Everyone is grade A 100% savage here.

As my old football coach used to say to me
"It ain't over till everyone is out of piss and vinegar".

In other words, the heated arguments are a sign that there's still interest in the game (never doubting there was a drop off), but people have different ideas of the future (or present) direction of the game.

Once the game is 100% without patches, this intensity of the arguments better remain lest we have Brawl (people simply started quitting or just were tired).

 

[darkfury666]

Hi guys

i am a new member, but i have been a reader of these forums for a long time and have really wanted to consolidate my opinions into a tier list. given the forum rules i will make sure to explain.

A+:
A:
A-:

B:
B-:
C+:

notable things:

the tier list is really small vertically. there are no s tiers. all tier gaps except one are a difference of half a tier. lowest tier is c+.

Explanations:

-Sheik is the most dominant character still, with extreme neutral and safety that means her lack of kill power matters very little compared to others. Sheik's extreme safety is my main reason here.
-Diddy is one of the best at every aspect of the game and has a passable recovery. His only actual good player is ZeRo (I am aware of MVD and Angel), and I would really like to see another truly top player pick him up.

-Pikachu, underrated, good at many, many things, he beats much of the cast with his neutral, size, combos, and disadvantage state. Loses to Mario, a common tournament character, but I believe his strengths elsewhere are so great that he could land this spot.
-Ryu needs MORE PLAYERS. He is ridiculous. I feel so bad that Trela has to carry and be responsible for a character as amazing as Ryu.
-Zero Suit is comparatively "low", but in the same tier as Bayonetta--I think the loss of her dthrow uair at kill percents is significant, as is her lack of rising aerials, but obviously still a great character and I have her placed very high.

Going into A-, it's important to note that the tier is big and I think there's a difference between Villager and R.O.B, but I don't think it's as significant as the difference between Villager and Sonic.

-Ness's recovery and certain MUs keep me from putting him higher.
-Olimar has results and pretty good MUs in general. I put him pretty high because I think he is even better than he appears, and perception of him has been deflated by people putting him low who know very little about him. Size, strong neutral, damage racking off pick in and combos, and ridiculously strong moves that net early kills, the ability to do almost anything with purples, I see him very high.

Small tier gap here

-Samus: I don't see a big difference between Samus and the others here, and I am not sure where the perception that certain characters like Luigi and Lucas, for instance, are significantly better than her came from. To understand where I am coming from, you will have to look at it from a different perspective and put away prejudices. Samus's placement, currently, is dictated from the point of view: Samus is not good, most characters are better, so her placement is determined by which characters are definitely worse.

I don't believe this to be the case. Samus is strong, she has very strong moves, charge shot bair, up b oos are absurd, dtilt, ftilt, uair, nair, and dash attack are close to absurd. She can space out, damage rack with ease, and then get kills off edge guarding, or most importantly and never mentioned, tech chases.

Charge shot is the best chargeable because of how it meshes with Samus and the comparative ease of landing it. 7 of Samus's moves set up tech chases that make it very difficult, and possibly impossible in certain cases, to avoid CS. With random incredibly strong and fast moves like fsmash, nair, and bair, an anti air that kills stupidly early, edge guarding, tech chases, early death combos, and surprising kill options later on in ftilt and up b, this character has no difficulty killing.

Samus can escape to the ledge easily and can't be threatened there much at all, mitigating her "bad landing", which is further mitigated by her weight and recovery. When put in perspective, her ability to reset neutral is not poor and it is very difficult to find a defining weakness for the character that everyone seems to search for. So why not higher? Grab and Pikachu/MK. But her strengths are, actually, huge.

I might come back in and edit in some more explanations, but for lower characters, keep in mind those characters are not low, no character in this tier list is particularly low compared to other tiers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's not actually implausible to think of Mewtwo as a solid top 10 character at this point. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

 

[Amadeus9]

It's not actually implausible to think of Mewtwo as a solid top 10 character at this point. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Speak for yourself

1 good result and suddenly a fighter everyone thought was p much bottom half is now top 10? Give it some time, goddamn. Like the fighter is good but there are way too many factors at play here. Abadango is an incredibly strong player and just about no one knew the matchup (Ally staying Mario against M2 should have been your first indication therein)

I'm not even going to say anything about that tier list because I like not receiving infractions

 

[Yikarur]

Considering Mewtwo as a given Top10 Char with Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Ryu, Fox, Sonic, Ness, Villager, Mario, Pikachu, Greninja and Meta Knight as potential candidates seems rather difficult.
It MAY be possible though.

 

[Routa]

Welcome to CI thread D darkfury666 . First of all +1 to you mate for actually reasoning some character placing. Mind if I ask for reasoning behind Shulk and the reason for not listing Miis?

 

[Nobie]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that Mewtwo's weaknesses prevent it from being high tier but that Mewtwo's weaknesses matter a great deal. It's just that Mewtwo has the tools to avoid those dangerous scenarios and it's all predicated on playing intelligently.

 

[DanGR]

The list really isn't that bad. In the past month, Ive seen many many many lists I disagree with more than this one.

-It's clear its based largely on opinions- many of which I disagree, but there's some good parts too. You can't look strictly at results and come to peace with a list like this.
-I'd say he's overselling Pikachu and Olimar at least a bit, and underselling ZSS, Cloud, and Marth. Those would be my main offenders but nothing to work yourself up over.
Things I like:
-I like that Bayonetta isn't first. (I'm inclined to agree at this point. Shoot me.)
-Fox is hella good and probably underrated by most people.
-Same with Samus and Corrin, really- being underrated, that is.
-Bowser Jr is actually terrible- probably not thaaat bad, but bottom 10 isn't out of the question.
-11-25 is about what I'd put for that grouping, honestly.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Considering Mewtwo as a given Top10 Char with Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Ryu, Fox, Sonic, Ness, Villager, Mario, Pikachu, Greninja and Meta Knight as potential candidates seems rather difficult.
It MAY be possible though.

Gren & Ness no, not right now, they're not as plausible as the others imo.
Ness, as opposed to Greninja, is lacking in terms of the theory. Everyone knows that his matchup spread isn't the best especially among top tiers, but yet, he has managed to place decently well at most majors thanks to Fow & Shaky. I do not have a lot of hope for Ness' future, maybe he will keep on surprising me, but only time will tell. I can only remain doubtful when Ness' matchup spread is objectively not one of a top tier.
Greninja is kind of the contrary: He doesn't have the results to back it up. With Greninja's poor & dissapointing results at Pound, we have the right to ask " What's wrong with Greninja? With his worst matchup becoming slightly better & most likely in the realm of doable, he probably has the ability to place better than that. " Again, the future may give us those results that we've been waiting for, but only time will tell. ( I am aware of IStudying's 2nd place at Beast VI btw )

Sorry if that displeases you, but i'm a huge sucker for proven theory by results.

 

[bc1910]

Considering Mewtwo as a given Top10 Char with Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Ryu, Fox, Sonic, Ness, Villager, Mario, Pikachu, Greninja and Meta Knight as potential candidates seems rather difficult.
It MAY be possible though.

Seeing Greninja rated that highly is interesting.

I can agree with the above post that the results aren't there yet but the theory most certainly is. FWIW I'm pretty sure he only definitively loses one MU (Sonic) and goes even or +1 against most of the other top tiers. The Sheik MU isn't slightly better by the way, it's like fighting a different character. She can't Fair or needle us for trying to do literally anything.

And I agree with what you said about Mewtwo. I'd say the character was underrated pre-Pound and is overrated now. Top 15 is likely, top 10 is possible, but he definitely has huge flaws that mater.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Gren & Ness no, not right now, they're not as plausible as the others imo.
Ness, as opposed to Greninja, is lacking in terms of the theory. Everyone knows that his matchup spread isn't the best especially among top tiers, but yet, he has managed to place decently well at most majors thanks to Fow & Shaky. I do not have a lot of hope for Ness' future, maybe he will keep on surprising me, but only time will tell. I can only remain doubtful when Ness' matchup spread is objectively not one of a top tier.
Greninja is kind of the contrary: He doesn't have the results to back it up. With Greninja's poor & dissapointing results at Pound, we have the right to ask " What's wrong with Greninja? With his worst matchup becoming slightly better & most likely in the realm of doable, he probably has the ability to place better than that. " Again, the future may give us those results that we've been waiting for, but only time will tell. ( I am aware of IStudying's 2nd place at Beast VI btw )

Sorry if that displeases you, but i'm a huge sucker for proven theory by results.

I'd put Ness around the bottom of top 15. He has consistently shown the ability to perform at a high level but most likely needs a secondary for Rosa/Villager. He's capable of winning a national provided you either have said secondary or manage to dodge top players of those two characters.

 

[Yikarur]

Match-ups are relative. Who says that "Ness MU spread isn't the best among top tiers" ?
Tbh deciding match-up ratios is one of the most arbitrary things fighting games have. If Fow, Shaky and Nakat make it into the Top Cut at every great tournament they attend, then apparantly Ness MUs are better than people give him credit for. The excuse that follows from this statement is obviously "They are such great players" but I see a clear consistency here. One of europe's best players is playing Ness and the premier US Ness' are all topping regulary. I don't think Ness is super top tier or anything but the consistency gives him the right to be considered Top10.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Hey, Kirby guy back again.

Stop calling Kirby bad (ie. Bottom 15).

I don't get what's with people putting him down here, when he has recently gotten results, buffs, and praise from top players. Kirby has, ready for this bold statement, a GOOD high tier MU spread.

is now being debated for being even. Mike and top players looking in (Like Dabuz) have expressed a possibility of this MU being even.

was already debatedly even pre-patch, but now that she doesnt kill us early the MU is largely agreed to be even.

is said to be even by top Kirby players and even in Kirby's favour by top Fox's like Larry.

is simply known to be "not that bad" however results can back up being even. FOW also stated on stream the match-up is even.

Top Pikas and Kirbys have expressed this MU as -1/45:55 Pika's favour, however there is little to no results to back this MU up.

Even or even Kirbys favour.

Top Kirbys call it even but there's little to no evidence backing this up (not played often).

Probably close, KID beat False with Kirby and other top Ryu's like Hooded have said the MU is close.

Close MU.



Sure, he gots kinda bodies by a lot of other characters (namely or anyone with a sword) but no character in even the bottom half of the cast fares this well against the higher end of the roster.

Kirby fares well as a counterpick character because of this (KID is good proof), and he wouldn't be like this if he was simply bad like some people here think.

 

[Zelder]

Well hell, with great arguments like "Close MU", "Even or Kirby's favour" and "Top Kirbys claim", I have no choice but to submit to your argument!

I'm obviously busting your balls here, but maybe you should go a bit more in depth on your claim, before making the claim at all. Bold statements deserve bold evidence, and all that jazz.

I will say Kid Goggles pulling out the Kirby at Pound was a powerful moment.

 

[Yikarur]

Kirby is really bad and has really bad approach options. I just can't imagine him being good in those match-ups tbh.
I might be biased because I play Yoshi but this character just doesn't seem good too me if you play the MU correctly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Hey, Kirby guy back again.

Stop calling Kirby bad (ie. Bottom 15).

I don't get what's with people putting him down here, when he has recently gotten results, buffs, and praise from top players. Kirby has, ready for this bold statement, a GOOD high tier MU spread.

is now being debated for being even. Mike and top players looking in (Like Dabuz) have expressed a possibility of this MU being even.

was already debatedly even pre-patch, but now that she doesnt kill us early the MU is largely agreed to be even.

is said to be even by top Kirby players and even in Kirby's favour by top Fox's like Larry.

is simply known to be "not that bad" however results can back up being even. FOW also stated on stream the match-up is even.

Top Pikas and Kirbys have expressed this MU as -1/45:55 Pika's favour, however there is little to no results to back this MU up.

Even or even Kirbys favour.

Top Kirbys call it even but there's little to no evidence backing this up (not played often).

Probably close, KID beat False with Kirby and other top Ryu's like Hooded have said the MU is close.

Close MU.



Sure, he gots kinda bodies by a lot of other characters (namely or anyone with a sword) but no character in even the bottom half of the cast fares this well against the higher end of the roster.

Kirby fares well as a counterpick character because of this (KID is good proof), and he wouldn't be like this if he was simply bad like some people here think.

Low tiers often have like 4 or 5 decent high tier MUs in this game, it's just that they get trashed in the others. You only listed like 6 evenish MUs among characters who anyone considers high tier. That probably doesn't make him better than low-mid considering all his other bad MUs. Kirby is a good CP character because he's easy to pick up and play and can be awkward to fight, but he's got major flaws that can be exploited by a knowledgeable opponent.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby is really bad and has really bad approach options. I just can't imagine him being good in those match-ups tbh.
I might be biased because I play Yoshi but this character just doesn't seem good too me if you play the MU correctly.

MUs are not based on blanket characteristics, but individual interactions. Yes, his approach options are poor... but for some characters (like ZSS), that doesn't matter as much as in others (Sonic).

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Low tiers often have like 4 or 5 decent high tier MUs in this game, it's just that they get trashed in the others. You only listed like 6 evenish MUs among characters who anyone considers high tier. That probably doesn't make him better than low-mid considering all his other bad MUs. Kirby is a good CP character because he's easy to pick up and play and can be awkward to fight, but he's got major flaws that can be exploited by a knowledgeable opponent.

Well considering 3 of the characters I named are agreed top tier, I cant think of many characters like that. Also, if Kirby was easy to beat Mr R and VoiD wouldntve had trouble beating Kirby. So calling two of the best Sheiks in the world not-knowledgable by comparison is (I assume) not what you want to be doing.

Kirby is really bad and has really bad approach options. I just can't imagine him being good in those match-ups tbh.
I might be biased because I play Yoshi but this character just doesn't seem good too me if you play the MU correctly.

I'm merely going by top player opinions and results, the big backers for these things.

Well hell, with great arguments like "Close MU", "Even or Kirby's favour" and "Top Kirbys claim", I have no choice but to submit to your argument!

I'm obviously busting your balls here, but maybe you should go a bit more in depth on your claim, before making the claim at all. Bold statements deserve bold evidence, and all that jazz.

I will say Kid Goggles pulling out the Kirby at Pound was a powerful moment.

I'm on Mobile and I'd rather not write a 3-page essay currently.

 

[Jamurai]

One national win does not a top tier make.

js I've been calling Mewtwo as high tier for a while now, as anyone who pays attention should have been. I made a tier list in early February with him in the same tier as Greninja, the Pits, Ike, Toon Link, etc. and then he got buffed yet again. I was like man he's definitely up there now. In comes Abadango giving 'Murica what for, and my opinion hasn't changed just cause someone proved my point. There are lots of factors to take into account, such as: a lot of players haven't faced an actually good Mewtwo, let alone one on Aba's level. Therefore, they wouldn't know how to exploit Mewtwo's more subtle weaknesses, eg. the inability to double jump out of strings like Yikarur mentioned. Tbh who really didn't expect Aba to do really well? The stage was pretty much set for him.

I thought we agreed making judgments based on a single tournament is very silly. It shouldn't be hard to think about a character's strengths in the context of their weaknesses and draw a conclusion as to their place in the meta/their viability based on that. Do that instead of seeing a character do well one time and blurting out "obvious top tier" or "OP". Or, if one doesn't have enough information, don't make wild claims and expect others to be like "ya tru".

(Not directed at anyone in particular.)

 

[Radical Larry]

Alright, now I'm going to post about Samus; this has been a long time coming and I really just want to put it out, because I'm going to a tournament in 6 hours. Now what I'm going to say about Samus is that even without the results, she is still a splendid character worthy of middle tier or even upper middle tier. By the number and letter position, I would practically count on her being around 23rd to 27th, in B Tier I or II.

Spoiler: Samus's Weaknesses and Strengths

She has various weaknesses such as:
-Almost no options to get back down from the air outside of D-Special and possibly D-Air.
-Somewhat average mobility, resulting in less stage control.
-A very slow grab coming back, thus making it very highly punishable.
-Somewhat unreliable jab and some very weak Smash attacks if not used properly.
-Consequently a below average CQC and Neutral.
-Average Disadvantage State.
-Poor Roll.

However, she is a character who has innumerable strengths that can topple down her weaknesses:
-An amazing combo game setup from both her fast Dash Attack, her D-Throw, her U-Tilt and her D-Tilt.
-A beyond stellar combo ability that includes many options just outside of the setups.
-Some very powerful attacks overall, with very safe aerials as a result of her floaty nature and decent aerial speed.
-A very powerful projectile and a great projectile game able to lure in opponents.
-A very fast U-Air that can combo into itself, especially if one fast-falls to the stage.
-All aerials can be auto-canceled off of short-hop.
-Four aerial moves capable of edge-guarding superbly, with N-Air being the best due to its primarily horizontal range. This results in Samus having one of the best edge-guarding and gimping capabilities in the game, as characters like Cloud and Ganondorf may be highly unable to recover if the front end hits.
-Decent shield pressure ability.
-Amazing damage on almost all of her attacks.
-Good KO attacks via N-Air, F-Air, B-Air, F-Smash and Charge Shot.
-Amazing ledge-getup ability akin to Link, as she can use an array of aerials to get her opponent away from her instead of doing a normal getup, making it hard to predict her movement.
-A very phenomenal recovery due to her floatiness and her options to recover.

Spoiler: Best Top Tier Match Up

Whilst not shown in tournaments, I'd have to say that her best MU against one of the top ten or top fifteen characters has to be Cloud, as the MU is in her advantage. She has so many options to actually KO him very early, especially her N-Air semi-spiking move. Cloud's disadvantage state against Samus specifically is very poor without Limit, and if he's struck off the stage, he's certainly done for if Samus can (and will) read his moves. If he recovers from above, it's an N-Air or B-Air, and if he recovers low, a Bomb or D-Air will finish him; there's no margin of error for his recovery.

With that out of the way, Samus has some effectively amazing shield pokes against Cloud with B-Air, F-Tilt and U-Tilt, with B-Air being her best move to use against him. She also has a projectile that he needs to respect, as Cloud's projectile is not even that useful to begin with.

Since Samus is a heavyweight, she can die very late, but this also contributes to her being combo'd by Cloud very easily. In fact, she can be the easiest character to keep up in the air against Cloud, and Cloud can take advantage by utilizing her floaty nature to charge Limit, which makes it hard for Samus to do anything. She can't simply come and rush in on Cloud, but instead would need to try to bait him into rolling or spot-dodging so that she can get an attack or grab. However, the combo game can be turned around just as harshly as Samus can just use D-Throw > N-Air, and at moderate damages around 60%, that can kill Cloud if he's around the edge of the stage.

In terms of stats:
-While Samus's disadvantage state is bad against Cloud, Cloud's disadvantage state is poor by comparison.
-CQC can go to either of them, but it comes down to whoever hits first can get the advantage.
-Zoning and Spacing belong to Samus due to her projectile game.
-But as for recovery, Samus unarguably has a better recovery than Cloud, Limit or not.

Now the MU is more around a 60:40 in Samus's favor, all due to her N-Air being the auto-gimp tool against Cloud with its very low angle of KB. She is a character Cloud needs to respect, or else he will ultimately find his end in battle.

She certainly has other great MUs against the characters, but I really do advocate that she is a middle tier character since she has that very high potential on the tier list. However, the lack of representatives and tournament results really do sting her position, but in no way can she be considered a bottom tier (bottom 10) character due to all the innumerable buffs, as well as the innumerable combo abilities she received this patch, and the better KO moves that she had been given.

She does belong into B Tier I or II, positioned around 23 and 27, and it may just be a matter of time until she can be fully realized as a tournament viable character.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Kirby still has those niches like many other mid tiers, he's not the best, but he's far from the worst....he's mainly in the decentish to okayish area.
its easy to tell from first glance he isn't threatening. But don't underestimate him, he still can show you his skills and stuff and you don't want to deal with them a lot.

He does fare against a decent amount of high/top tiers,
then he has those other MUs that are harder, but don't necessarily warrant a secondary ???

Then those MUs that possibly make you want to throw your controller ?

So he definitely can do something alone, it's just working for that is gonna be tough and a lot of work, but he certainly isn't unviable, and he's one of the characters consistently getting buffs after every patch(granted some were literally the same thing over and over that we don't need).

Just like all characters, don't rule him out, He isn't that super cute pink puffball that looks unthreatening, get in his way and he will release his STAR POWER. Kirby is the name you should know :D

 

[Jalil]

Hi guys

i am a new member, but i have been a reader of these forums for a long time and have really wanted to consolidate my opinions into a tier list. given the forum rules i will make sure to explain.

A+:
A:
A-:

B:
B-:
C+:

notable things:

the tier list is really small vertically. there are no s tiers. all tier gaps except one are a difference of half a tier. lowest tier is c+.

Explanations:

-Sheik is the most dominant character still, with extreme neutral and safety that means her lack of kill power matters very little compared to others. Sheik's extreme safety is my main reason here.
-Diddy is one of the best at every aspect of the game and has a passable recovery. His only actual good player is ZeRo (I am aware of MVD and Angel), and I would really like to see another truly top player pick him up.

-Pikachu, underrated, good at many, many things, he beats much of the cast with his neutral, size, combos, and disadvantage state. Loses to Mario, a common tournament character, but I believe his strengths elsewhere are so great that he could land this spot.
-Ryu needs MORE PLAYERS. He is ridiculous. I feel so bad that Trela has to carry and be responsible for a character as amazing as Ryu.
-Zero Suit is comparatively "low", but in the same tier as Bayonetta--I think the loss of her dthrow uair at kill percents is significant, as is her lack of rising aerials, but obviously still a great character and I have her placed very high.

Going into A-, it's important to note that the tier is big and I think there's a difference between Villager and R.O.B, but I don't think it's as significant as the difference between Villager and Sonic.

-Ness's recovery and certain MUs keep me from putting him higher.
-Olimar has results and pretty good MUs in general. I put him pretty high because I think he is even better than he appears, and perception of him has been deflated by people putting him low who know very little about him. Size, strong neutral, damage racking off pick in and combos, and ridiculously strong moves that net early kills, the ability to do almost anything with purples, I see him very high.

Small tier gap here

-Samus: I don't see a big difference between Samus and the others here, and I am not sure where the perception that certain characters like Luigi and Lucas, for instance, are significantly better than her came from. To understand where I am coming from, you will have to look at it from a different perspective and put away prejudices. Samus's placement, currently, is dictated from the point of view: Samus is not good, most characters are better, so her placement is determined by which characters are definitely worse.

I don't believe this to be the case. Samus is strong, she has very strong moves, charge shot bair, up b oos are absurd, dtilt, ftilt, uair, nair, and dash attack are close to absurd. She can space out, damage rack with ease, and then get kills off edge guarding, or most importantly and never mentioned, tech chases.

Charge shot is the best chargeable because of how it meshes with Samus and the comparative ease of landing it. 7 of Samus's moves set up tech chases that make it very difficult, and possibly impossible in certain cases, to avoid CS. With random incredibly strong and fast moves like fsmash, nair, and bair, an anti air that kills stupidly early, edge guarding, tech chases, early death combos, and surprising kill options later on in ftilt and up b, this character has no difficulty killing.

Samus can escape to the ledge easily and can't be threatened there much at all, mitigating her "bad landing", which is further mitigated by her weight and recovery. When put in perspective, her ability to reset neutral is not poor and it is very difficult to find a defining weakness for the character that everyone seems to search for. So why not higher? Grab and Pikachu/MK. But her strengths are, actually, huge.

I might come back in and edit in some more explanations, but for lower characters, keep in mind those characters are not low, no character in this tier list is particularly low compared to other tiers.

I think megaman is too high. Lucas and pac should be above him due to better mu spreads with top tiers, not being gatekept and more results in general.

 

[Emblem Lord]

K.I.D and I grinded Ryu vs Kirby quite a bit. I'm not shocked he beat False at all, especially since Ryu NEEDS to play on the ground in that match and I know False has a very aerial based Ryu.

So yeah...grain of salt.

 

[Nobie]

I think megaman is too high. Lucas and pac should be above him due to better mu spreads with top tiers, not being gatekept and more results in general.

Since when do Pac and Lucas have more results than Mega Man?

 

[Jalil]

Since when do Pac and Lucas have more results than Mega Man?

There's Tea and Ginko in japan still doing work. Tea got top 8 recently and Ginko was just shy or top 8 at that nico nico qualifier( I think that was the one) and there's also Abadango's results from when he played pac which I don't think should be ignored cuz it's not like pacman has had changes since then. He actually might have had a harder time cuz that was before the nerfs of some top tiers.
I admit I even tho I play mm more than pac, I havent been keeping up with his results as much so I might be wrong on that. Either way pac has a better mu spread

 

[Mr. Johan]

Mewtwo won a major. Sonic never did, pre-patch nor post.

If people want to dismiss Mewtwo out of Top 10 because of not having >1 result, we must do the same for Sonic.



Dismissing a potential Top 10 Mewtwo on such ground just sounds like an inclined attempt at maintaining status quo, to me.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Mewtwo won a major. Sonic never did, pre-patch nor post.

If people want to dismiss Mewtwo out of Top 10 because of not having >1 result, we must do the same for Sonic.



Dismissing a potential Top 10 Mewtwo on such ground just sounds like an inclined attempt at maintaining status quo, to me.

I think this is the hazard of relying too heavily on results. There are only 8 spots in top 8 (duh), and only 1 person can ever win a given tournament. Given that the top placements tend to go to specific players (Zero, Nairo, Dabuz, etc.), then relying on results biases a list towards those players' mains. Hence theory.

This is also why rarely-seen characters making a splash into top X (iStudying w/ Greninja, Abadango w/ Mewtwo, Hyuga (?) w/ Toon Link) are such a big deal, because it represents a breaking of that status quo.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Speak for yourself

1 good result and suddenly a fighter everyone thought was p much bottom half is now top 10? Give it some time, goddamn. Like the fighter is good but there are way too many factors at play here. Abadango is an incredibly strong player and just about no one knew the matchup (Ally staying Mario against M2 should have been your first indication therein)

I'm not even going to say anything about that tier list because I like not receiving infractions

Gheb said its not implausible for M2 to be top 10. He didn't say m2 is now top 10.

 

[hypersonicJD]

And this is why I don't take Esam seriously anymore.

Only losing match-ups Ness, Mr. Game and Watch and Mario? Pika defeating Sonic? Mewtwo? Cloud? Even Bayonetta and Rosalina? I don't think so. He has his character so overhyped and will mispread information.

Sonic vs Pikachu is even. He can't gimp Sonic with edgeguards and we can kill Pikachu easier that he can kill us. Both rack up damage insanely fast and can annoy each other. I seriously cannot see Pikachu winning just because of Electricity spamming.

It seems to me that Rosalina vs Pikachu it's even. Dabuz and Esam have had some close matches at CEO and Big House 5. I dont wan't to really claim it's even though. Since I don't main Rosalina neither Pikachu. It seems to me that way, but most likely be wrong.

Pikachu vs Mewtwo is also even. Because Pikachu has a way harder time killing Mewtwo than Mewtwo killing Pikachu. And also Mewtwo is an amazing edgeguarder, Pikachu can gimp Mewtwo with some good back airs but that's really it. He cannot kill Mewtwo with thunder because he can just reverse it with confussion.

Cloud vs Pika is a tough one to call honestly. Because Pika gims Cloud like no tomorrow. But Cloud also racks up really good damage on Pikachu and kills him so fast with Limit Cross Slash. And Cloud's range can keep Pikachu away from him. I honestly don't know what to call this one. But for me it's an even match. A competent Cloud shouldn't allow to get gimped.

 

[Jamurai]

National 1st placings are not the only results which matter... I'm very much a person who is happy to challenge the status quo usually (eg. I think 3 stock is superior), so this isn't about that. My point was that one big result doesn't prove M2 is a top tier; it's not been long since his buffs. Sonic may not have actually won anything but he has acheived high placings fairly often, iirc. I didn't mean to completely dismiss the idea of Mewtwo being that good, it's simply my opinion that he isn't.

 

[Trifroze]

was already debatedly even pre-patch, but now that she doesnt kill us early the MU is largely agreed to be even.

Nothing has changed about her early kill setups. They work roughly 5% later and that's it, and Kirby is still one of the characters who very often dies to up b off the top when it doesn't fully connect.

 

[Amadeus9]

Mewtwo won a major. Sonic never did, pre-patch nor post.

If people want to dismiss Mewtwo out of Top 10 because of not having >1 result, we must do the same for Sonic.



Dismissing a potential Top 10 Mewtwo on such ground just sounds like an inclined attempt at maintaining status quo, to me.

I've talked about this before. This is cherry picking lmao. M2's theory and mu spread is very suspect.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well considering 3 of the characters I named are agreed top tier, I cant think of many characters like that. Also, if Kirby was easy to beat Mr R and VoiD wouldntve had trouble beating Kirby. So calling two of the best Sheiks in the world not-knowledgable by comparison is (I assume) not what you want to be doing.

Kirby is easy to beat for some high tiers. Sheik is not one of them. At best Kirby is anti-meta, but doesn't have the MU spread up and down the character roster to really be better than low-mid.

 

[Jalil]

I've always thought that shulk was underrated but if the general consensus is that he's booty and a bottom 10 character then that should make it easier for him to be buffed next patch. I just hope that they can buff him in a way that really makes a difference but keeps difficult to play

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I've always thought that shulk was underrated but if the general consensus is that he's booty and a bottom 10 character then that should make it easier for him to be buffed next patch. I just hope that they can buff him in a way that really makes a difference but keeps difficult to play

If 99% of the people here were to spend a day on character discords then they would see. Sadly Shulk will remain obscure

 

[Asdioh]

Questions and answers:

First of all, Mewtwo won a major, by a player ranked (#??, wiki tells me Abadango is #8) from Japan. ZeRo was notably absent, which may have changed the end result. Still, he was undefeated using mostly Mewtwo, with only a little bit of MK. Matchup inexperience may have been a factor. With all this taken into account, people remain skeptical of even listing him as a top 15 character.

Meanwhile, Villager got third at a major, by the player everybody was saying was ranked #1 in Japan. Matchup inexperience may have been a factor. With all this taken into account, he shot up the tier list, being ranked #11 on the first official tier list, and is still considered top 15 by pretty much every post I see, such as the ones on this page, even after the inclusion of Cloud and Bayonetta.

So my question is, why the big difference? As far as results go, particularly in Japan, how do Mewtwo and Villager compare right now? Is Ranai, or other Villagers, still winning tourneys frequently? Is Abadango, or other Mewtwos, winning tourneys frequently, especially after his recent massive buffs?



Speaking of matchup inexperience, I'm sure K.I.D. and MikeKirby have more Sheik experience than Mr. R and Void have Kirby experience, and yet they still lost. I finally got to watch the Pound set, and K.I.D. and Mr. R both played extremely well. Despite Sheik being probably Kirby's best top tier matchup, it still showed why Kirby is never in a position to get easy wins. Game 3 especially showed that, with him taking like 90% damage before he could land a single hit, and then he got solidly two stocked. both wins Kirby got, on the other hand, were extremely close. I haven't seen Mike vs Void yet, but Mike is indisputedly the best Kirby (of the ones I've seen) and yet he still lost to an extremely-good-but-not-even-the-best Sheik, and that's with the (assumed) advantage of the Kirby player having significantly more matchup experience.

K.I.D and I grinded Ryu vs Kirby quite a bit. I'm not shocked he beat False at all, especially since Ryu NEEDS to play on the ground in that match and I know False has a very aerial based Ryu.

So yeah...grain of salt.

Yeah, this too. Ryu especially is one of those characters that suffers from lack of MU experience against Kirby. A lot of his favorite moves are just useless against a crouching Kirby, and when they're ingrained in the Ryu player's muscle memory, he'll want to keep using them even though they're easy to avoid. On the other hand, if he plays footsies patiently with lots of D-tilts/D-smashes and the like, it becomes a pretty even matchup. It's actually a lot of fun for me to play as Kirby, until Ryu hits you a few times and then shoryukens you at 70%.


Also I skipped some of the recent pages since I was way behind, but I saw something about Kirby beating Lucario, which is just no. I'm pretty sure Lucario wins that matchup. Aura Sphere is stupid.

Regarding the Kirby/Lucario discussion, I thought Kirby mains discovered the benefits of Aura sphere charge and were feeling themselves over having kill confirms on Luc though it turns out it was nothing more than uninformed theory.
Gonna drop my 2 cents on the subject. Through ASC, Kirby in theory can confirm to Bair for kills or reverse up b for racking damage. Also he gains a way get around shield using b reverse/ wavebounce ASC, but there's the elephant in the room on getting the ability since it requires getting off an inhale. Also keep in mind Lucario rarely (if ever) needs to approach Kirby since he can use his great foxtrot to stay mid-range where Kirby struggles an force reactions with AS/Nair. Also, ASC->Usmash wastes Kirby when Lucario is as low as mid percents.
Not entirely sure who wins in the end, but it's definitely a interesting MU that will probably never be played at a relevant setting.

And then I scrolled up and saw this, this is a good post.

EDIT: Also keep in mind Kirby's b-reverse game with ASC won't as strong due to his weaker air speed.

And this is so depressing. Seeing all the cool stuff characters like ZSS can do with wavebounce/B-reverse Paralyzers, and then practicing it with Kirby only to see him move about an inch... yeah.