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And he skipped over explaining both the Meta Knight and Ryu MU's. I'm getting the feeling he somehow randomly arranges his MU charts and then tries to justify each one even when it's very suspect.
US nationals, which a grand total of zero top level Ganondorfs have attended. Once Kalm or Vermanubis or GtB actually gets to attend one of those we can compare that to the performance of other characters on the lower end of the tier list, but saying that Ganon is worse than X because Y Ganon main didn't enter Z tournament, and discounting the results Ganon has gotten seems kind of stupid to me. I don't think anyone actually thinks he's a particularly good character, but he hasn't even really gotten the opportunity to be showcased at a high level at a major, which is something I'd like to see changed.
I'm just surprised that some people will trust his MU chart.
Like i said in a previous message. Sometime player that are really good at smash but just can't travel.
results are always gonna be more meaningful than potential though. could the ganon players place good at nationals? sure, but I'm not gonna hold it against someone if they don't give them a benefit of the doubt and actually want something tangible.
Man, everyone thinks they beat Meta Knight now. I feel like now they actually have to play against the character and not just fear the up air combo. (Although many characters still have to). Time will tell of course but I think MK is still very much a high tier character.I am genuinely curious what match ups with top tiers you feel Pac does better than megaman in
This is Scatts megaman match up chart released soon after the 1.1.5 patch dropped. I know basing match ups off of only top player opinion is not a logically sound thing to do, but this is only a reference.
Brief listings of Megaman Matchups with high tiers based on what Ive observed from the Mega community
Pika: usually labeled as a losing MU. Scatt got beat pretty Badly by Esam at TOXI, no other examles of this at high level that I have seen, but Pika seems to be able to disrespect Mega's zoning fairly effectively, wrack up damage quickly, and edge guard his recovery.
Bayo: I havent heard enough about this matchup or played it but Greward seems to not like it very much and Scatt also has it as bad.
Fox: This one has a lot of disagreement on how bad Mega loses this. I personally have trouble with fox, I usually just ditto them, but several Mega's have felt its not that terrible and Scatt had a really close set with Larry Lur although this cold be inexperince on Larry's side going into the match
Sheik: Losing MU but the jury is still out on if she is still a gate keeper.
Mario; considered a losing MU by most but how bad it is has been debated.
Rosa: even or slight disadvantage
Falcon: anywhere from even to one of his worst MUs.
Cloud: disadvantage to some degree
ZSS: even or slight disadvantage
Diddy slight advantage
Sonic Advantage
Metaknight: no worse than even many have given it at least a slight advantage to mega
Villager usually listed as advantageous though amount varies
Ness: I havent found a large amount of discussion on him yet so IDK
Ryu: even to advantage
This is Zage's Pac man MU chart. Again Im not advocating this as the true Pac MU chart but as a general guide
https://twitter.com/_ReturnTheSlab_/status/698060256815894528
A which I assume is Slight advantage: Ryu Diddy and MetaKnight. I can see this for similar reasons to why Mega does well. Falcon seems a little suspect but I wouldn't know.
B=even: Rosa same as mega, Sheik this is an important one and a MU where I do believe Pac does much better than mega. Sonic potentially a worse match than mega's
C slight disadvantage: ZSS, Ness, Fox, Villager and Pika. Potentially better Fox and Pika MU, same Zss MU, worse villager and ness MU. Again no sure on Mega's Ness MU so IDK
D distinct disadvantage Cloud Bayo Mario. Cloud and Mario are either worse or the same as Mega, Bayo is the same.
Overall spreads with a number of high tiers seem fairly similar
That guy is the biggest Marth whiner there is. He insists that Marth in Smash 4 is inherently bad, and even with the buffs keeps harping on Marth's supposedly dire flaws. Honestly, it looks like the only thing that would satisfy him are sh double fairs, melee grab range, and chain grabs.
I find it funny that commenters tell him he's wrong and pessimistic, but to this day, I have not seen one person actually provide proper counter-arguments to his points. Is he overly negative? Maybe, but I have to agree with his points considering no one has managed to refute them convincingly. Look past his tone and you can see some pretty valid arguments.
It's something that i have to take off my mind...
or ?Why would you care to talk to a wall?
I never said they did.
Okay, but they have no proof they're extremely good at Smash until we can establish evidence, and dominating weeklies in a state not at all known for its incredible skill at Smash isn't exactly compelling evidence. Using your logic, you could say pretty much any player from an unknown region is "an extremely good player", but why should I take that claim on faith?
I know Brian's tone is bad, but I'm being reasonable by judging his arguments by themselves. And even then, if he's wrong, then who's right? The people on reddit have until now failed to give substantial counter-arguments to his claims, so I have more reason to believe him.It's something that i have to take off my mind...
But do certain character are stigmatised because of their placement in older-game?
Like people unconscioucly thinking a character is bad because of previous placement? Like
Why would you care to talk to a wall?
Here. I'll talk to a wall for you.
First he don't unserstand the character concept of Marth himself. Marth isn't mean to have reward about his grab. His jab/tilt/grab/d-tilt/Up-b are the ''Get the **** out of here'' option so he can place a Tip.
Especialy the Jab>F-smash combo who i think explain perfectly this mentality.
When you can't understand what is the concept of a character. There isn't anything else to say. Just don't talk about it.
Why do we have a poweranking by region then?
Marth's dashing acceleration is one of the worst in the game, and it takes about 3 full steps for him to reach his full walking speed. So his ground speed isn't as good as it is on paper.
I know it wasn't the main point of the post, but could you elaborate on your understanding of the Ganon vs Metaknight matchup? It's certainly in Meta Knights favor, but most Ganons myself included don't consider it a very bad matchup at all.Nobie
Everyone has to fear Ganondorf and respect his options because all he needs are a few good reads and you're dead. The problem with Ganondorf is, like every other low and bottom tier, he has no reliable way of landing anything without those reads. MK still recks Ganondorf (70-30 easily) and even then I still feel the ever-present threat of him getting that one read and landing that hit.
I really like seeing that the mood around Samus has changed. The buffs were very significant, and while still a highly technical and difficult to use character, she CAN fight!Radical Larry said:
I'd like to illuminate this point to many people in this thread.
Tier lists and our understanding of where characters are placed tend to be based on the highest possible skill pool/level we can take from. Hence, our determination of who's on top tends to stem from certain players consistently doing well at the top level. We can make comparative results by looking at Top 8s and Top 16s to see who might be high/mid tier.
Why should I believe that a region is secretly great or on the level of other regions we accept as good when no evidence exists that it is? If Minnesota is secretly as good as MD/VA or Texas, throw me some results that suggests it is.
A tournament is for me a place where people use their skill to be the best.
I'm not going to argue that Ganondorf is a good character because he isn't, but if you want to compare him to King Dedede for example and cite Big D as evidence for why D3 is better, it is important to note the absence of Ganondorf's best performers at such events. Ganondorf has better theory than D3 imo, and putting D3 ahead because his best rep went to X tournament and Ganondorf's didn't without considering all other sides to the argument seems shortsighted to me.
To be clear, I'm not "trashing" a region. I'm just accepting that, based on evidence of none of its power ranked players doing anything at national level, that it's not an especially great region in comparison to others. This all stems from my point on Ganondorf being bottom 5 based on results, because even when you give credit to Minnesota, being 1st in Minnesota is not as important as making 13th at a regional/major. This shouldn't be a controversial statement.
Okay, well. It is a pretty bad match-up from my perspective, the only factor that really prevents it from being completely hellish for Ganon is MK's weight (aerial down b kills at 70-80% if I'm not mistaken, and f tilt is scary at the ledge). MK can't afford to make many mistakes, but he does have the tools to avoid putting himself in that position in the first place.
vs all over again.
Exactly. I brought him up here because I wanted to see if anyone actually has any counterarguments -- which, so far, extend to "Marth isn't that slow". If I wanted to see people tell him he's wrong and overly negative, I can go to Reddit for that. And he is kind of a douche, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong.
But personal skill is not how we determine tier lists. I'm talking about character placements. Results have a very heavy impact, because it's theory put to the test. If a top-level player can take a mid-tier and win a tournament, it proves equally that the character is fully capable of that in the right hands, and that it should be placed higher if it isn't. If Dabuz solo'd Olimar into a victory at a major, we'd then reconsider the common perception that Olimar exists in the blob of undefined mid-tiers, and he'd start looking more like Toon Link did when Hyuga broke out and beat Nairo and placed really well in tournies with high skill pools.
Again, you completely misunderstand my argument and ask a question that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The existence of multi-tiered tournies and multi-tiered results is not something in favor of your point. You might have a point if I was only arguing that results at the very top level of play mattered, but I'm not arguing that.
Pre-patch Pon was able to beat a high-level Japanese MK in a tourney set even though he got bodied by ladder in game 2. I seriously doubt it was ever 90-10, and it never even felt 70-30 even with the ladder. Mk doesn't have any truly safe buttons against Ganondorf. Dorf Dtilt (not to mention the new and improved Jab) outranges all of MK's grounded moves, and Ganon's aerials generally beat MK's tiny hitboxes should he take to the air. Ultimately this MU comes down to who can bait and punish better, and while MK's edge in mobility, combos, and edgeguarding give him an easier time, he dies very quickly should the Dorf outwit him. Imo it's 55-45 MK now, and I think even back when the ladder was a thing it wasn't worse than 65-35 or 60-40.Okay, well. It is a pretty bad match-up from my perspective, the only factor that really prevents it from being completely hellish for Ganon is MK's weight (aerial down b kills at 70-80% if I'm not mistaken, and f tilt is scary at the ledge). MK can't afford to make many mistakes, but he does have the tools to avoid putting himself in that position in the first place.
If we're going off theory, it's horrible. MK can abuse his neutral options (frame 3 d tilt, dair camping, etc) and Ganon can't safely or quickly respond. From my experience, Ganon has to rely on jab and d tilt (it outranges possibly all of MK's moves, and kills ~100%), along with usmash baiting, to try and keep MK out. From neutral, Ganon has a bad time in disadvantage. He doesn't really get laddered anymore, and even in the instances he does, he'll rarely die from it due to his weight. Regardless, Ganon has such a difficult time landing, and MK can easily exploit this (but wizkick is pretty scary even though it's unsafe).
On the other hand, Meta Knight can get out of disadvantage for free (though he does not want to take a stray hit from something like a uair) with his jumps, 3 landing aerials, and Cape mix-ups. Recovering is simple, though, again, MK has to respect Ganon's aerials because they all kill damn early. For Ganon, offstage is almost a one-sided affair when he's trying to get back. He's dead if he uses his double jump and take a hit. If he's recovering from far, MK can just go deep and bait an airdodge and then punish with a nair or bair, or any aerial for the matter. It's important for MK to go far offstage because then he won't have to contend with the absurdly large hitbox on the end of Ganon's up b, and while kill-suiciding with Flame Choke is a thing, it's far too risky for it to make a major difference.
Killing is hard to decide. Ganondorf has high power across a lot of his kit, but MK has kill set-ups and his safe f smash. He'll die really early if he commits to something unsafe or Ganon makes a read, but Ganon really can't do much to avoid dash attack -> upb (which is easy given Ganon's physics), d tilt set-ups, and usmash to finish juggles.
Now, that is all in theory. In theory, I assume that the MK player will abuse his safe moves, and not commit to unsafe options. In theory, this MU could be 80-20. However, in practice, players make dumb mistakes, and Ganon thrives off of these. He only needs a couple of solid hits and he's good, so going by this, it's 70-30 IMO. Meta Knight wins by a considerable amount, but that doesn't mean it's a free win, because the MK player has to play very carefully against Ganon. There have been a few times where I've been juggling Ganondorf, only to let my guard down, disregard him, and die to an aerial wizkick.
This is unlike pre-patch where I would reason this MU was as bad as 90-10 lol. It was
The Luigi MU is practically unchanged, and may be slightly better with the fair buff. Tyrant beat Con Con once or twice (I think in two sets but correct me), and the GF set was pretty convincing for Tyrant. Con Con died to ladders a few times so that's evidence it hasn't really gotten better for Luigi. It was and is still pretty close at 55-45, though. Luigi's recovery doesn't do him any good. MK can just go above his side b and dair, or space a bair properly and kill him, and Tyrant heavily abused this in his set vs Con Con. Note: prior to the Luigi nerf, it was probably just in his favor due to MK's falling speed and light weight leaving him as combo and KO food.
Used to be #1. A Megaman player, Swag, currently occupies that spot. Minnesota also has killers like Triple R and Skorpio.Here is Ganonthebeast. He's power ranked really high in Minnesota, number one I believe? He is super young (14 -16 range), so don't expect him to travel much.
HeavyLobster
Thank you for the clarification. When I first heard of him, he was number one, and I was not sure if he still was. What exactly is his rank now?
That what baffle me.
Sometimes, but in the case of heavies all of them at one point were in fact undertuned to the point where they needed buffs to be able to reasonably compete, and some of them are still in that position. Though the laziest players tend to gravitate towards good simple characters like Ness and Mario, or towards extremely forgiving characters like Cloud. Heavies might usually be simple in terms of a technical sense, but they generally aren't easy to play since their every move tends to be a commitment.
