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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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C0rvus

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Bowser and DK are pretty solid super heavyweights. They actually have decent recovery for the first time in the series, they have good buttons and good reward. I think their design works. They are pretty rewarding when you get your hits, but you have to get in to get your hits. You could probably make their disadvantage better, especially in the case of Bowser's landing options, but I think the design works. These characters are good at "the game" of Smash Bros. They are good at not getting KOed because of their weight, and they have the explosive kill power to get kills themselves. The developers have to trim the fat somewhere.

Not every character can have safe neutral and get out of jail free buttons (granted, no one should have these). Heavies have their own set of strengths and weaknesses, they work for the most part, and they appeal to different players. That's fantastic. Sure, buffs are nice, and Ganon and Dedede in particular are strikingly undertuned. But they don't need fundamental changes.

The easy traditional FG archetype to compare them to is grapplers. In many cases, grapplers tend to be among the lower tiers, but they still do their job. They struggle to get in, but tend to have the normals and raw power to put out damage out of single interactions that the rest of the cast is jealous of. It's hard to make this archetype "meta" (high tiered, as it were) and make them fair at the same time. When they are, something must be overtuned, because in most cases, neutral matters quite a lot, and that is their textbook weakness. (You get stuff like Waldstein, or Merkava. I don't want that. ****'s not fun.)
 
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Browny

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I think this is the hazard of relying too heavily on results. There are only 8 spots in top 8 (duh), and only 1 person can ever win a given tournament. Given that the top placements tend to go to specific players (Zero, Nairo, Dabuz, etc.), then relying on results biases a list towards those players' mains. Hence theory.

This is also why rarely-seen characters making a splash into top X (iStudying w/ Greninja, Abadango w/ Mewtwo, Hyuga (?) w/ Toon Link) are such a big deal, because it represents a breaking of that status quo.
This is the only thing that is correct.

If some infinitesimally small change in the wind back in November 2014 made the top 3 players decide to solo main diddy, robin and olimar I would be fairly confident that the consensus of sheik, zss and rosalina being the undeniable top 3 characters (pre 1.1.5) would be shaken and those mid tiers would be perceived much higher. It literally takes one top level player to change how everyone sees things.

As a 100% defender of results determining tier lists advocate, I accept the bias of top players mains can and will affect the tier lists and in some ways, it could be dramatic.

On the other hand, favouring theory is literally putting weight in that which has little or no evidence. You have two situations, accept one method which is prone to bias but has concrete, verifiable proof of a characters viability or allow influence from another method which is less prone to powerful bias however lacks evidence.

Where does one draw the line? Should results be taken 100%, should it be a 70:30 split, 50:50?

I've said it before but I solidly believe that when looking at results, the results of the #1 player must be looked at entirely separately from literally everyone else as an outlier, but an outlier that is given weight by quantitatively looking at how far they are above the average player. Doing this will allow us to put a number on just how much one top player has an influence over a single character and through doing this, the results:theory ratio can approach 100:0.

If we look at Rosalina, everyone knows she is a national threat able to beat the top player of every character in the world. Is Dabuz an anomaly and should we discredit his results like some people discredit Abadango as being a case of 'the player won pound, not the character?' Well that's an easy answer, of course not because without Dabuz, Rosalina is still placing high in many regions. What this means is that ultimately, the theory of her being top tier is completely clear to the point that it doesnt even matter if her theory says she is top tier or not, the results can not be argued.

Now look at Mewtwo. Same question, is Abadango an anomaly? This is a little trickier because Mewtwo doesnt have such a wide variety of high level results as the likes of say, Diddy. If you remove abadango from the equation Mewtwo is still performing quite well in a few regions taking 1st, 2nd places in 80+ entrant tournaments but its not top tier worthy. At the highest level, Mewtwo has proven himself as capable as diddy. At the mid level though he is a bit behind, lacking the sheer volume of tournament wins that diddy has and theres A LOT of them.

At top level, there isnt enough evidence to conclude that Mewtwo is on the level of diddy. At mid level, same story. What Mewtwo has is nothing more than a textbook definition of what I would call a high tier, lets say top 15 character because we can conclude there isnt enough to put him in the upper echelon of characters but what there IS enough of, is sufficient evidence to put him above around 40 other characters because relativity is important!

Time to bash on Pikachu again, comparing him to diddy and Mewtwo at the same time. Pikachu lacks top level success that diddy has. Pikachu lacks mid-level success that both characters have. Pikachu does however have consistent, long-running success at top level through esam, more than what Mewtwo has. We must consider outliers though so if we remove esam, zero and abadango from the equation we have diddy with the most top level representation and mewtwo/pikachu both languishing far behind without anywhere near enough evidence to separate the two. At mid level though, diddy absolutely trounces mewtwo who in turn, has far more than pikachu. By every measure, esam is an outlier. But we can give weight to outliers and we should.

The 'theory' revolving around how good high tier characters that aren't demonstrably obvious top tiers, is more of a question of 'how far is the top level player of this character above the rest of the players' and how can we quantify their results in terms of player skill vs character viability.

This is not an easy question to answer. What matters though is that at NO TIME, should anyone discredit any evidence whatsoever. All results (or lack thereof) must be accounted for. Having extensive evidence is usually impossible due to top player main bias, so theory does have its place. There is nothing wrong with using theory but placing less weight on results because of bias is making no attempt to explain why the results dont match the theory and there most definitely is a point where people credit the players, more than the characters to a point that is quite simply willfully ignoring evidence to support your own character bias.

I firmly believe that Abadango has NOT shown himself to be such a significant higher level than the next best Mewtwo mains in order to call him an outlier. His placing is more similar to what Rosalina has where although she doesnt have many, there are a number of Rosalina mains out there #1 PR'd in their region. These two are dissimilar to diddy who has zounds of top and mid level success. The gap between Abadango and richbrown/mew^2/blue is a perfectly normal gap that a high tier character would have.

To accurately judge Mewtwo, we need to find other characters with comparable top level results and account for how far their best player is above the rest.

In doing so, I would say the following characters have proven themselves to be above Mewtwo, the theory is valid and there is sufficient evidence to counter their lack of top level success due to the simple bias of not having a top level rep.

:4bayonetta::4cloud::4diddy::4fox::4mario::4metaknight::4ness::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4zss:

While sharing a similar viability to :4ryu::4tlink::4villager::4pikachu::4greninja: where one could argue if any of the top-level mainers of these 5 characters + Mewtwo switched to a new main, the results would drop off dramatically at the highest level.
 
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Trifroze

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I feel zss is better than bayonetta by feeling more efficient/consistent.
At the same time I'm not sure if it's just bayo not being optimized.
Can any of you zero suit or bayo mains help me with this predicament?
ZSS better than Bayonetta overall? Definitely not if that's what you mean. What Nairo and Marss do with the character isn't a completely realistic depiction of the character because usually they're better than whoever they are playing, although arguably this can be said for several other characters as well (on the whole though ZSS' results are weaker than all other top tier contenders).

If you're just talking in terms of their punish games, I'd agree ZSS is more consistent but still Bayo's best punishes are so good that she's probably stronger in the end. In my opinion ZSS' main niche is a disjointed and mobile zoning character anyway (I don't think Cloud for instance really works the same way at all, and might not be as capable overall either), she just happens to have a good punish game and CQC at the same time. I guess what we see as the main niche of a given character depends on whether we focus on neutral, advantage or disadvantage though.
 
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Megamang

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Heavies are unpopular to play agianst, because playing against a heavyweight can be really stressful. Since you are the one that has to succeed in neutral, and also has less room for making mistakes, its natural to become frustrated when you win neutral 75% of the game but lose the game.
 

sedrf

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Fow released a tier list for the current patch in no current order
 
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Man Li Gi

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The only real problem heavies have is that they lose neutral most of the time. But that's an intended weakness, because they don't need to win it as many times. Giving them low frame CQC would be silly because then characters wouldn't be rewarded for penetrating their obnoxious zoning with boxing and pivot grabs.

The issue I have is that too many heavy mains complain about how they lose neutral. Doing well in neutral is the only real skill to playing heavies, apart from knowing how to DI and mix up your momentum in disadvantage. They want to be able to win neutral as many times as lightweights, whilst still needing to win it less times.

That's how balance works. If you can win neutral most of the time, then you should need to win it more than other characters. If you don't need to win it many times, then it should be harder to win it.

And then you have Bayonetta, who can win it very easily yet needs to win it even less than the heavies.
You see, why heavy mains complain is cuz they have been historically horrendous in smash. I dunno if the extra emphasis on mobility is what caused it, but it certainly causes a burden for them. My perfect heavyweight would have one that is good in CQC but horrendous in approach....,....kinda like Kirby.

Winning neutral doesn't just mean CQC cuz then if that was, Kirby and Pit would be top tier as well.

Having KD3 have a decent up close game would help no doubt (in fact could cause him to be usable), but it wouldn't ignore or destroy his ability to be combo food and that's the true weakness big bodies should have.

Gief in SF4 and SFV and Jack in Tekken are some heavies that come to mind whenever I think of big bodies. Yeah they huge, but their data is pretty average (not as garbage as you imply heavies should have). In fact they have some property to them to prevent them from being terrible. Their big problem is, yes getting in and stopping combos. Those should be the only weakness heavies should have. If they have no CQC game, how on earth are they even functioning with no ability to cover long range, can't do short range..... and all you got is mid range. Congrats, you're so strong in an area that legit every character can play. What else's do you bring? Oh you do damage.....eventually? Well I'll just rack up more in less time says the rush down or zoner.

I would understand if heavy mains were asking questions like "why don't we get combos?" If heavies had legit combos.….....
 

Das Koopa

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Fow released a tier list for the current patch in no current order
I was gonna say "This mostly makes sense if there's no order otherwise this is an abject trainwreck"

but yeah I mostly agree with this, sectioned-off, except imo Fox should be in A+ and ZSS should be replaced by Sheik
 

bc1910

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Fow released a tier list for the current patch in no current order
Even unordered, this is a train wreck.

We've been over why Rosalina is not an S-tier character let alone second best in the game. And we have a random appearance from ZSS to make the S-tier even more wrong!

Pikachu in A+ speaks for itself.

Wario, Luigi, Lucario, Peach and the Pits in A? None of those characters have earned that placement lately. On the other hand, Greninja, Toon Link and ROB are a tier too low. He thinks those characters have the same viability as Kirby and Duck Hunt? Really?

Wii Fit is a tier too low as well.

With the exception of Sheik not being #1 (and some of the DLC not being released) this looks like a tier list from 6-8 months ago.
 
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Big-Cat

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Honestly, I think there's just a bias against super heavy weights regardless of whether they're good or bad.
Always has been, even now when it's not as warranted. To say things like heavies lack tools and other things like that shows you that not a lot of research is done. The thing with, say, Bowser, is that his tools have a lot of different applications. Tilts are not only powerful, but they will stuff a lot of aerials if spaced right thanks to intangibility. Let's not forget how powerful the grab and throw game are.

He can't hop like a flea, but that's okay. I find that playing heavies requires a particular mindset. Not everyone can play them. I sure as hell can't play speedy characters.
 

Megamang

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I read somewhere on smashboards that bowser's down angled ftilt can hit every single ledgesnap. That wouldn't surprise me, and the intangibility would go a long way in beating out a lot of recovery's hitbox they have right next to the sweetspot.

Is this true?


Also, while it is flawed in execution, more moves like Gerudo would be nice for heavies. If, say, Bowser's side B command grab would leave them prone on the ground for chases... it would be a cool tool that makes sense in the scope of a heavy, where if they got right up on your shield and used their command grab, you can't just roll away from the one hit you got.

But, he'd lose some shield-piercing kill power. But perhaps he could have both, with an input command after the grab? You certainly have time... but buttons with options to be used totally differently is mostly a DLC characteristic, and IMO it should be a heavy characteristic. Not a whole kit like Ryu, but a few footsie-boosting options would be pretty fair for them, and again wouldn't demolish FFA or anything.
 
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Big-Cat

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Ryu's appearance is definitely going to affect the future games that's for sure. On that angled FTilt, that's true to my understanding but you must space it right and doesn't work on everyone.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I'm surprised my claim that Mewtwo could be top 10 now was met with such controversy.

* Mewtwo has won a supermajor tournament, which is one more supermajor tournament won than Cloud, Mario, Sonic or Fox have [I leave out Rosalina here because that one tournament dabuz won just before the patch came out was stacked enough to count as a supermajor in my book] - all characters that are currently considered better than Mewtwo. The claim that Abadango is an insane player and therefore takes away from Mewtwo's achievements is garbage. Are dabuz, Ally and Void not insane players? Do they not use some of the best characters in the game? Was Abadango not an insane player when he got like 49th at Genesis 3? This argument is really bad and kind of proves the point of people who claim that Mewtwo is still stigmatized as bottom-tier for life.

* What are Mewtwo's matchups that supposedly keep him from being top 10? I've pointed this one out before but Mewtwo vs Fox went from ~25/75 to ~45/55 over the course of two patches. That's tremendous and goes to show how much his matchups must've improved. Post patch Mewtwo's records against Mario, Sheik, Cloud, Bayonetta and Rosalina are all very solid [read: not in the opponent's favor]. There's like Fox, ZSS and Diddy at this point who are theorized to be disadvantaged matchups but that remains to be seen. Based on how things have been going it's totally possible that Mewtwo simply doesn't lose any matchups by more than -1 and that he doesn't have a lot of those either. This stands in contradiction to a character like Rosalina who's considered top 5 by many despite having two known -2 matchups in MK and Cloud.

* Theorycrafters also have to explain what Mewtwo lacks to be top 10. Yes, he does have clearly defined weaknesses but so do Rosalina and Fox for instance. Mewtwo has numerous strengths - his tilts have more range than most swords and in case of dtilt very good frame data. He has one of the best projectiles and one of the best reflectors in the game. He has the best airdodge in the game. His dash speed is the same as Sheik's. There's a consistent stock cap of ~120% against Mewtwo, if you manage to survive that long. Fair is an incredible OoS and anti-aerial option. Bair beats most aerials head on and is an amazing offstage option. Incredibly good and versatile nair as well. Please add that all together and tell me just how much weaknesses a character needs to be not top 10 with those strengths on his side. I doubt Mewtwo has that much left.

:059:
 

Dre89

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And they could give him a jump at the bottom of an airbourne divekick like he used to have...

He can't do that right? If he can I never see it utilized.
They could make wizkick unpunishable on whiff, but then he can use in multiple directions multiple times to ladder people off the top, and he'd only need to read DI 50/50s.

Actually na, that'd be really broken.
 

deepseadiva

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I feel zss is better than bayonetta by feeling more efficient/consistent.
At the same time I'm not sure if it's just bayo not being optimized.
Can any of you zero suit or bayo mains help me with this predicament?
My thoughts have been evolving in this direction as well.

The initial shock of the 0-deaths is waning, along with the realization that those specific death combo situations were uncommon to begin with. Left without those, and with the looming threat of them being patched out, Bayonetta has weak comparisons to ZSS in a lot of areas; namely grab combos and raw kill power.

Bayonetta will always benefit from the effects of how inconsistent this game can be, but I'm not so sure she wins the marathon.
 
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Megamang

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We haven't seen his weaknesses fully exploited on a large stage. I bet until abadango's run most high/top level players didn't think they needed to know the m2 matchup either, so that benefitted him a lot.

Not saying M2 isn't an amazing character, but the big body and slow double jump hurts some things. The example m2k gave gimping cloud, where you can't react to a characters double jump, doesn't ring true with mewtwo, for example. His flaws are weird, and haven't been properly exploited yet.
 

Trifroze

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Theorycrafters also have to explain what Mewtwo lacks to be top 10. Yes, he does have clearly defined weaknesses but so do Rosalina and Fox for instance. Mewtwo has numerous strengths - his tilts have more range than most swords and in case of dtilt very good frame data. He has one of the best projectiles and one of the best reflectors in the game. He has the best airdodge in the game. His dash speed is the same as Sheik's. There's a consistent stock cap of ~120% against Mewtwo, if you manage to survive that long. Fair is an incredible OoS and anti-aerial option. Bair beats most aerials head on and is an amazing offstage option. Incredibly good and versatile nair as well. Please add that all together and tell me just how much weaknesses a character needs to be not top 10 with those strengths on his side. I doubt Mewtwo has that much left.
Not necessarily disagreeing with your opinion here but rather with your way of justifying it. Look how I can make Samus sound just as amazing by using that same method:

Yes, Samus' grab and rolls are terrible, but ZSS and Bayonetta are doing just fine with those weaknesses. Samus has numerous strengths - her ftilt has more range than almost any attack in the game and can kill you at under 100% near the ledge if angled. She has one of the fastest and strongest projectiles in the game, and she combines arguably the best dash attack in the game and the best zair in the game, both of which can lead to 30-40% combos. Her bair is almost as strong as Ganondorf's and has more range than ZSS' while only being a single frame slower and having less endlag, letting you use bair and uair in a single shorthop for instance. Nair hits most characters from a rising shorthop and kills at 60-70% near the drop zone, while fair catches airdodges and lets Samus off the ledge for free half the time, not to mention that it also kills relatively early, making Samus have arguably the strongest set of aerials in the game after the likes of Ganondorf and Bowser. Even dair meteor exploits linear recoveries in a way most characters can't. Samus is also heavy and floaty with a great recovery, giving her extremely high survivability. Combine this with the fact that up b kills roughly one third earlier with max rage, i.e. at 100%, and is a great OoS tool as a punish and in pressure. Samus' jumpsquat is really good for her weight, and her aerial mobility is one of the best in the game due to her high aerial deceleration and the recent speed buffs, letting her utilize her great set of aerials and zair with ease.

Yet Samus isn't a great character. No doubt Mewtwo is better but I'd be surprised if his many awkward attributes and weaknesses didn't amount to a similar phenomenon in the end (although to a lesser extent). It's not just his weight and size, but his awkward double jump (in the majority of situations), his terrible tech animations and his lacking ability to deal with any decently solid boxing pressure. At Pound most people weren't intuitive with Mewtwo's airdodge or platform canceling so he got away from many situations he shouldn't have. Whether the Mewtwo player's tag disappears or not when he airdodges shouldn't really be a problem most of the time due to how poor his aerial accel/decel are.

Main point being however that no matter how solid a kit looks when you observe individual aspects of it, it may not work quite as well as a whole.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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Thank you so much for that information, i've been looking for a resource on that ever since I lost the post somewhere deep in the mechanics thread.

KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer @Kurogane Hammer (Don't know which is active): The shield health is listed as 50 on the site, but I thought we'd proved it was 42 recently.
All damage (including shield damage) is multiplied by 1.19 to shields.

This is similar to Brawl where all damage to shields was multiplied by 0.7.
 

Emblem Lord

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I know Brian's tone is bad, but I'm being reasonable by judging his arguments by themselves. And even then, if he's wrong, then who's right? The people on reddit have until now failed to give substantial counter-arguments to his claims, so I have more reason to believe him.
Or you could learn to read frame data and within minutes realize this guy is wrong about Marth.

Think for yourself bruh.
 

Megamang

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But how can I ever win neutral with my sword, if I cant swing it twice in one short hop?
 

Y2Kay

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Even unordered, this is a train wreck.

Wario, Luigi, Lucario, Peach and the Pits in A? None of those characters have earned that placement lately. On the other hand, Greninja, Toon Link and ROB are a tier too low. He thinks those characters have the same viability as Kirby and Duck Hunt? Really?
Keep an mind, man that he had greninja as the 11th worst character before BEAST VI.

He's always SUPER underrated greninja, like really bad. Sadly, this is an improvement for his standards.

But he claims his tier list is based off results and theory, and is in order in the tiers(!!!!!!)

No way on this green earth is Marth better than greninja.

:150:
 

BunbUn129

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Or you could learn to read frame data and within minutes realize this guy is wrong about Marth.

Think for yourself bruh.
The issues Brian outlines are ones that have been present since Melee: arcing hitboxes, low active frames, and high ending lag relative to his active frames. Marth's fair lasts for only 3 frames, doesn't cover a constant zone in front of him, has ~ 30 frames of ending lag, 16 frames of landing lag, and a tight AC window. If you look to Marth's frame data between Brawl and Smash 4, you can see why Brian is pissed. They increased the landing lag on his nair, fair, and uair substantially ( all 9 frames -> 12/16/16); Marth's fair was his best move in Melee/Brawl, and in Smash 4, it lost 25% of its active frames, had its start-up increased by 2, and had its landing lag increased to 16. If you took any character and nerfed their most essential tool to the point that it has much higher landing lag, shorter duration, and slower start-up, it would hurt bad. Marth's down tilt has longer range now, but it has 3 more frames of ending lag and had its duration decreased by 1 frame (33%)--that's pretty significant since it was an essential component of his ground game.

MK between Brawl and Smash 4 also had his active frames butchered across a large part of his moveset (fair, uair, dair, f tilt, all smashes--all halved), but he withstood that with lower ending lag on his moves. Marth always had high ending lag, and so shortening his active frames, I'm sure, hurt him far more. Brian furthermore goes on about Marth's unreliable and inconsistent reward, and this thread already seems to acknowledge that.

I wouldn't be so quick to call him "wrong about Marth," because his two main points--a loss of safety and low reward--are valid.
 

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He exaggerates.

Marths results are simply too consistent now for him to be low tier.

Make no mistake. Marth does not impress me at all. He plays the Brawl metagame in Smash 4. Its boring to me and simply not enough. But Marth is no worse then mid tier in this game. His buttons are simply too oppressive.
 

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want to talk about and consistency? lets talk about ness and consistency.

First off, dont group NAKAT with FOW, and Shaky. I don't think NAKAT has ever been a solo ness main unlike FOW and Shaky; this is a very important in regards to this particular discussion. It's hard to take NAKATS results into consideration being that he uses pikachu and fox quite a bit, especially when it comes to ness's bad match-ups. Also, in terms of skill level, NAKAT is not on the level of FOW and Shaky. Even with two really good secondaries he still doesn't place as well as FOW/Shaky. Fow has gotten top 8 at every major he has attended and is consistent. Shaky's placings are very similar to Fows and is also consistent; both of them going solo ness.

PLAYER SKILL MATTERS

As for ness's consistency. While Fow/Shaky place very well consistently, neither of these players have ever convincingly taken a set off of a top level sheik (Zero, Void), zss (Nairo), rosa (Dabuz), villager (Ranai), or mario (Ally, Anti). Feel free to look this up for yourself

Before you bring up Nakats victory in WF over Nairo at Smash The Record, Nairo pretty much gave away half of the winners finals set and proceeded to destroy Nakats ness in grand finals. Fow beat Anti at Pax 2016 with Anti SD'ing with mario in the last match and got pineappled by Lylat in another match.

Also, ness has more than a handful of losing match-ups; some worse than others (sheik, rosa, mario, sonic, G & W, corrin, MK, cloud, bayo, pits, marth, villager, shulk)

ness is good but he ain't top 10. He just has a little too much going against him. He's somewhere around 15 at best
It's probably worthy to mention I'm pretty sure Sonic doesn't have much claim to these standards either (I'm pretty sure 6WX doesn't, he beat Nairo once ages ago but it was Nairo's Pit. Oh by the way 6WX seems like an awesome guy, I feel bad for citing him when I talk about why I don't believe in Sonic) whilst maintaining regularly (slightly) lower results strength than Ness (according to Das Koopa Das Koopa 's results chart) and I don't think a lot of people think he's worse than 10th.

I also don't really agree that Ness loses to G&W, Shulk, Marth, Villager or Mario and I think MK, Bayo and both Pits are shaky assertments at best. Most characters in the former group I believe are pretty even: G&W is stupidly volatile with not much high level evidence but intermediate evidence doesn't really suggest this either - Kodystri and GimR have an old set together where GimR loses solidly to patient smart plays by Kodystri and mostly gets outread in game 1 and game 2 is pretty close - so yeah, Mario is like, FOW vs Ally may have been won due to an SD by Ally but FOW was up 2-1 already due to a poor switch to Rosa by Ally and the games were usually pretty close stock for stock. Villager is one decently close set between FOW and Ranai and the aforementioned SS vs FOW which I don't think indicates a particular advantage but take it as you will. Marth and Shulk I also don't believe there's too much evidence for, there's an old, semi-lopsided match between Mik! and Relaxed where it seems like Ness just does too much damage to Shulk when he gets in for it to actually be bad. Marth I can barely find anything for and I don't trust my own experiences right now to give my personal take but it doesn't seem lopsided to me either.

I won't go into the latter group but they're ones there's either mixed evidence for or not enough evidence for. I will agree Corrin is a losing MU for us.

I appreciate and applaud your research, but I think you threw out too many characters that 'seem' like they'd do well against Ness and listed them as counters. I would argue this isn't the case. :)
 

Tizio Random

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It's easy to say that Marth in this game is trash when compared to his previous incarnations where he is incredibly strong. He would probably massacre all the characters in Smash 4.
In Melee he has a sword that is more like a katana, a grab that brings ludicrous chain grabs and has so much range that can catch you even if you are on the other side of the stage and an amazing aerial game. In Brawl he is more or less the same without the grab range but introducing the air release bull****. In the 1.0.0 version of Smash 4 he was trash, now it's an honest character with problems that can be seen right away, unlike the previous games where you have to find minuscule weaknesses. It can be improved, obviously, but it's FAR from being bad.
 
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Zannabluke

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sm4sh marth is not a super threatening fighter per se but his fair and jab 1 are pretty scary if you ask me
 

Browny

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I'm surprised my claim that Mewtwo could be top 10 now was met with such controversy.

* Mewtwo has won a supermajor tournament, which is one more supermajor tournament won than Cloud, Mario, Sonic or Fox have [I leave out Rosalina here because that one tournament dabuz won just before the patch came out was stacked enough to count as a supermajor in my book] - all characters that are currently considered better than Mewtwo. The claim that Abadango is an insane player and therefore takes away from Mewtwo's achievements is garbage. Are dabuz, Ally and Void not insane players? Do they not use some of the best characters in the game? Was Abadango not an insane player when he got like 49th at Genesis 3? This argument is really bad and kind of proves the point of people who claim that Mewtwo is still stigmatized as bottom-tier for life.

* What are Mewtwo's matchups that supposedly keep him from being top 10? I've pointed this one out before but Mewtwo vs Fox went from ~25/75 to ~45/55 over the course of two patches. That's tremendous and goes to show how much his matchups must've improved. Post patch Mewtwo's records against Mario, Sheik, Cloud, Bayonetta and Rosalina are all very solid [read: not in the opponent's favor]. There's like Fox, ZSS and Diddy at this point who are theorized to be disadvantaged matchups but that remains to be seen. Based on how things have been going it's totally possible that Mewtwo simply doesn't lose any matchups by more than -1 and that he doesn't have a lot of those either. This stands in contradiction to a character like Rosalina who's considered top 5 by many despite having two known -2 matchups in MK and Cloud.

* Theorycrafters also have to explain what Mewtwo lacks to be top 10. Yes, he does have clearly defined weaknesses but so do Rosalina and Fox for instance. Mewtwo has numerous strengths - his tilts have more range than most swords and in case of dtilt very good frame data. He has one of the best projectiles and one of the best reflectors in the game. He has the best airdodge in the game. His dash speed is the same as Sheik's. There's a consistent stock cap of ~120% against Mewtwo, if you manage to survive that long. Fair is an incredible OoS and anti-aerial option. Bair beats most aerials head on and is an amazing offstage option. Incredibly good and versatile nair as well. Please add that all together and tell me just how much weaknesses a character needs to be not top 10 with those strengths on his side. I doubt Mewtwo has that much left.

:059:
The theorycrafters, potentially through no fault of their own, often doubt Mewtwo because of pure misinformation that was spread about him for a long time and still today people keeping getting things very wrong about it. Theres 3 main things that still linger to this day. Luckily the idea that he has 'no combos' has died as people woke up to realise that jab-dtilt-fair-fair is one of the most damaging combos in the entire game. I'm sure you don't need to know any of the following, I just want to say it all anyway.

Firstly, His lack of throw combos is often brought up (esam once again proves why no one should ever listen to him) as a reason why he isnt top 10 because of the simple fact that he cant rack up huge damage from throws to counter shield camping. People keep missing the point where fthrow does 14% which in itself, is more than some throw combos. Diddys is often touted as having great throw combos that do a whopping 18%. Ultimately if people were to rank the characters in order of who gets the most from throw combos, the top tier is so far above the rest its not even funny (zss, dk, ness) before you get into the next tier which would include diddy, mario, falcon, peach, rob and then Mewtwo would be in the next tier. Really, Mewtwos raw throw damage is so high it outdamages the vast majority of the casts damage for a throw and further to that, doesnt stop working early on. Pit has a nice easy throw combo at low % but he loses it entirely soon after. That is such a big deal that people keep forgetting. Would you rather a 20% combo once at 0 and 10% there on in, or a 14% throw that always works with 2 12% throws to keep things fresh?

Mewtwo doesnt need throw combos to have a good grab game. Its not the best, but it most certainly isnt bad and IMO is only topped by :4charizard::4diddy::4dk::4myfriends::4kirby::4lucas::4luigi::4mario::4gaw::4ness::4rob::4robinf::4zss: (I don't know any Mii throw combos) which would put it in the top 25% or so of the cast.

Secondly, the idea that he doesn't have disjoints and his tail is a giant hurtbox. More and more people are realising that his tail does act as a sword and further to that, its a REALLY LONG sword. All of Mewtwos moves except nair have a noticeably large disjoint. People claim that anyone with a disjoint can just trade and win vs him... its very annoying to debate with.

Thirdly, that his upthrow isnt that good. Its been a year since Mewtwo has been out, Upthrow has not been touched in any patch. It killed the earliest when he came out, it killed earlier after charizards buff and it still kills earlier today. People STILL think that it is just an average kill throw, I heard it on streams, in person and see it smashboards. It never ends! The gif in my sig is definitive. Mewtwos uthrow, like many others, has a 90* angle which makes DI almost negligible against it. People often say that Mewtwo rarely lives long enough to get enough rage to make uthrow powerful enough. I did some tests a while back. I think a Mewtwo with 75% rage killed earlier with uthrow than a max rage charizard at 150%. And it doesn't end there, Mewtwos uthrow kills around 15% earlier than when charizard is landing on a platform above him and it begins to kill earlier than Ness' bthrow if Ness is anywhere past the centre-stage while bthrowing in the opposite direction.

A few days ago I killed a sheik at 89% with uthrow on duck hunt from the ground.

And people STILL TELL ME TO MY FACE that it isnt the best vertical kill throw.

omg.
 
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Y2Kay

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I don't know why ESAM and others say Mewtwo has low reward off grabs. The damage from his throws in itself are very potent. Fully charged, Shadow Ball nearly breaks shields by itself, shield pressure is the least of Mewtwo's problems.

I can't believe people are actually holding "no throw combos" against him lol

:150:
 
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BunbUn129

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I remember when ZeRo said in one of his pre-buff videos on M2 that one of the most important things he needs to be able to compete is the ability to combo with his down throw. And M2 still lacks a proper combo throw and yet managed to win a major. I know that vid was a long time ago, but M2's throws haven't functionally changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVsKOzM7iY


Not even 10 seconds in and ya done goofed ZeRo.

The idea that a character absolutely needs a proper combo throw to be top tier has thankfully been killed with the advent of Cloud and Bayonetta, and with M2's rise. Also, Fox has been top tier for a while even though people have long acknowledged his mediocre grab game.
 
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bc1910

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Pummel to Fthrow does as much damage as a small grab combo by itself (around 15%) and gives Mewtwo the chance to charge Shadow Ball. It just puts the opponent in what is generally a very bad position. Uthrow and Bthrow both kill. Mewtwo's Dthrow is genuinely bad, but why would you use it when Fthrow exists? And the popup Dthrow gives you isn't exactly terrible, it's just not that useful.

Keep an mind, man that he had greninja as the 11th worst character before BEAST VI.

He's always SUPER underrated greninja, like really bad. Sadly, this is an improvement for his standards.

But he claims his tier list is based off results and theory, and is in order in the tiers(!!!!!!)

No way on this green earth is Marth better than greninja.

:150:
If it's ordered then it's an extremely uninformed list, to put it simply. One of the worst ones from a S4 top player.

I just noticed Fox isn't in A+ either, when he's probably top 10 in the game.

Man, everyone thinks they beat Meta Knight now. I feel like now they actually have to play against the character and not just fear the up air combo. (Although many characters still have to). Time will tell of course but I think MK is still very much a high tier character.
This annoys me as well.

There were some characters who MK only beat/went even with due to the ladder, sure, but everyone thinks they go 55:45 or 60:40 against him now. When in reality he probably doesn't have that many MUs that are notably worse, due to the nerfs to other top tiers and the fact that MK was good anyway. Dash attack to Shuttle Loop is still an extremely potent 50/50 that works at around 100% (lower with rage) and doesn't pose much risk to MK if he guesses wrong.

Though for what it's worth I can see Pika being one of the few that does notably better against MK now.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Trifroze said:
Samus has numerous strengths - her ftilt has more range than almost any attack in the game and can kill you at under 100% near the ledge if angled. She has one of the fastest and strongest projectiles in the game, and she combines arguably the best dash attack in the game and the best zair in the game, both of which can lead to 30-40% combos. Her bair is almost as strong as Ganondorf's and has more range than ZSS' while only being a single frame slower and having less endlag, letting you use bair and uair in a single shorthop for instance. Nair hits most characters from a rising shorthop and kills at 60-70% near the drop zone, while fair catches airdodges and lets Samus off the ledge for free half the time, not to mention that it also kills relatively early, making Samus have arguably the strongest set of aerials in the game after the likes of Ganondorf and Bowser. Even dair meteor exploits linear recoveries in a way most characters can't. Samus is also heavy and floaty with a great recovery, giving her extremely high survivability. Combine this with the fact that up b kills roughly one third earlier with max rage, i.e. at 100%, and is a great OoS tool as a punish and in pressure. Samus' jumpsquat is really good for her weight, and her aerial mobility is one of the best in the game due to her high aerial deceleration and the recent speed buffs, letting her utilize her great set of aerials and zair with ease.
(...)
Yet Samus isn't a great character.
(...)
Main point being however that no matter how solid a kit looks when you observe individual aspects of it, it may not work quite as well as a whole.
A very good post, the main issue is of course, hurtbox to hitbox size.
That is how they kept this character in check, which is to say small, precise hitboxes.

Simply comparing f-tilt to f-tilt:
http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-hitbox-visualization.432829/
http://smashboards.com/threads/bayonetta-hitbox-visualization.435127/
http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-hitbox-visualization.432596/#post-20982441

It is beyond obvious that has been the balance criteria.

I would argue that she is in fact a good character, and when all the tech and combos are understood, she may even be a "great" character (i.e. high tier). Another round of buffs for "basic play" and she's in excellent shape.
A slightly larger D-air with no tech on impact and I'm a happy man.
 

BunbUn129

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MK still wins the majority of his MU's because his kit as a whole is very effective; the ladder was this dumb nuke that he had for some reason. I remember reading a post by an MK user several months back saying that MK wouldn't be affected by patches because he "plays exactly as intended." And I never believed Sakurai deliberately gave Meta Knight a death combo when he nerf-bombed Diddy who had an 80% grab kill set-up, and went on to further neuter Luigi's down throw.

The MU's that are notably worse are Fox, Ryu, Mario, Diddy (though this was already losing) among a few others I'm sure, but it's really hard to tell because pre-patch MK basically transcended MU's with his trump card. If any MU was losing, he could just turn things around with it. The new MK is not so much as "how have his MU's been affected?" but more "he actually has MU's." It's kind of like how Lucario's MU's become so murky when you throw in Aura jank into the mix.

I still think Pikachu loses slightly due to KOing differentials, but he loves the toned down KOing potential of MK; he isn't gonna rip at 10% to full-rage MK lol. ESAM didn't take the time to give any explanation for the Pika-MK MU, so I'm inclined to believe he has no reason for it.
 
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meleebrawler

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Pummel to Fthrow does as much damage as a small grab combo by itself (around 15%) and gives Mewtwo the chance to charge Shadow Ball. It just puts the opponent in what is generally a very bad position. Uthrow and Bthrow both kill. Mewtwo's Dthrow is genuinely bad, but why would you use it when Fthrow exists? And the popup Dthrow gives you isn't exactly terrible, it's just not that useful.
You use dthrow if: 1. You already have a charged Shadow Ball, 2. You're in center stage, and 3. You don't want to stale uthrow.
It's pretty much a Confusion that happens to scale (and now you know why having true followups from it would be busted).

Dthrow's utility does improve a bit with low platforms, though. And having a throw to smack Luma with is always nice.
 
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Y2Kay

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Down throw, isn't too great, but you get some crazy stuff If your opponent spams air dodge (which happens a lot) depending on fall speed you can't get down tilt, a smash attack, disable, shadowball, and nair.

So yeah, don't air dodge that throw.

:150:
 
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ARISTOS

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:4marth: problem isn't his neutral, but the fact that he gets blown up in disadvantage and generally has a hard time landing. Advantage isn't too bad but a lot of it is positioning and waiting for an opponent to press a punishable button. Unfortunately, if you're not in tipper range it's not really too rewarding. Tipper F-tilt is amazing.

Secret to beating :4mewtwo: might be to rush him down. Harder than it seems b/c once he's out of your chain/combo he can airdash/teleport away. But his buttons up-close aren't fast; his ground speed allows him to set the pace more often than not though. I can buy a top 10 Mewtwo.

Btw, I think these characters are the ones fighting for such a stake.
:4bayonetta2::4cloud::4diddy::rosalina::4sheik::4mario::4ness::4sonic::4metaknight::4ryu::4villager::4zss::4corrin::4fox::4mewtwo:
 

krazySyko

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Pit has a nice easy throw combo at low % but he loses it entirely soon after. That is such a big deal that people keep forgetting. Would you rather a 20% combo once at 0 and 10% there on in, or a 14% throw that always works with 2 12% throws to keep things fresh?
Might be slightly worth noting that Pit's throw combo game is at least a little bit more extensive. Someone on the Pit boards made a nice early draft of combo percents on the entire cast, and dthrow-fair/nair/bair usually work into the mid percents (with dthrow-dair-nair being a thing on certain characters too) and dthrow-uair works for a decently long time as well. They're not all TOO damaging, and I'm not sure how much DI was tested with this but it still gives a good idea of what options are present.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...U2utu79Oll8S7fsVI7ZQQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
 

LancerStaff

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Might be slightly worth noting that Pit's throw combo game is at least a little bit more extensive. Someone on the Pit boards made a nice early draft of combo percents on the entire cast, and dthrow-fair/nair/bair usually work into the mid percents (with dthrow-dair-nair being a thing on certain characters too) and dthrow-uair works for a decently long time as well. They're not all TOO damaging, and I'm not sure how much DI was tested with this but it still gives a good idea of what options are present.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...U2utu79Oll8S7fsVI7ZQQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
To add to this, he has more damaging throws and his pummel is good. Can't ever remember if it's 3 or 2 damage...

By the time his throw combos stop working you can at least get two pummels in. 2 + 2 + 11 (Uthrow, so it's okay to stale it) is still 15%.
 

sedrf

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http://challonge.com/SAC25SSB4
https://www.twitch.tv/saltyarena
There is a french major that is almost done or a regional.
Also smash on the hill is on right now, fusion 3 might happen soon

looking at the stream elexiao:4greninja: vs Griffith's:4bayonetta:/:4zss: seems to show why the :4bayonetta: mu is literal aids.
Bayo's accumulated landing lag makes her easier to punish plus the fact that shadow sneak allows him to outchesse bayo makes her life miserable. It might possibly be one of bayo's worse matchups

An update on the french tourney: elexiao defeats grififth's sheik in a lost stock last hit situation. So kudos to all you greninja mains out there.
 
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bc1910

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Elexiao crushed Bayo and ZSS. Neither character is a problem for Greninja.

Of course, Griffith busts out a pocket Sheik and instantly starts taking games.

But Elexiao won! Against Sheik nonetheless. Such a clutch win with weak Nair to Usmash, but we take those. That MU still kind of sucks, but it's winnable.

EDIT: Greninja had rage, but Sheik died to weak Nair > Usmash at 57%.
 
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KamikazePotato

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An update on the french tourney: elexiao defeats grififth's sheik in a lost stock last hit situation. So kudos to all you greninja mains out there.
At one point Sheik had 2 stocks, 10%, while Greninja had 1 stock, 70%. Was a damn good comeback.

On the subject of Marth: he's balanced in this game while in other games he was really good. That's tough for some people to get used to.
 
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