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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Dinoman96

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Yeah, in my eyes, I don't see a problem with a character being mid tier. To me, that means a character is good/decent/ok. They might not be the best, but they certainly aren't the worst or particularly bad at the very least.

Let's just say, I'd reckon people who play characters like Zelda, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff wish their characters could be mid tier.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Yeah, in my eyes, I don't see a problem with a character being mid tier. To me, that means a character is good/decent/ok. They might not be the best, but they certainly aren't the worst or particularly bad at the very least.

Let's just say, I'd reckon people who play characters like Zelda, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff wish their characters could be mid tier.
Every day I wish for Dorf to reach a level of viability where players complain about 40-60 MUs instead of calling them "not that bad."
 

Das Koopa

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I remember once a luigi main said that he should get a hoo hah - esque combo akin to Donkey Kong and Bowser. I thought that idea was really . . . . bad to say the least, because that would just undo the nerfs the balance team gave him.

In my opinion, mid tier mains complaining about their mains not being amazing and crying for buffs is really spoiled. There are a lot worst positions to be in this game than a low mid percent combo monster with great frame data. I know what playing a bad character feels like. This type of whining earns the least sympathy from me, especially when you consider how some players with low tier mains work the butt off to try to optimize their characters.

You're telling me that, say, Samus mains are trying to optimize their character that has serious flaws*, but you feel the need to complain? You have to be joking.

Heh, whatever. This mind set is only holding them back anyway. It still annoys me though.

* I'm not making that one up. I've been spying on the Samus Boards, for a while, and they do get some serious labbing done. Props to them.

:150:
I dream of a day where Samus, Marth, and Falco are all high tier.
 

Vyrnx

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I'm not making that one up. I've been spying on the Samus Boards, for a while, and they do get some serious labbing done. Props to them.
I still can't believe we had a member make a two hour long incredibly in depth video about Samus combos just cuz. in addition to the many, many other videos he had already made.
 

sedrf

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I feel zss is better than bayonetta by feeling more efficient/consistent.
At the same time I'm not sure if it's just bayo not being optimized.
Can any of you zero suit or bayo mains help me with this predicament?
 

Djent

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There's a small tournament being held at Kyoto University on 4/17. It's scheduled to last from 2:00-5:30 p.m. local time, so figure late p.m./early Sunday a.m. for many US/EU people. I don't think it will be streamed, but it has some top- and high-level talent in attendance. There's also a chance that the matches will end up on YouTube (though they didn't last time grumble).

SHIG|9B :4bayonetta:
Komorikiri :4cloud2::4sonic:
Nasubi :4wario2:
Ri-ma :4tlink:
Masashi :4cloud2:
Shogun :4fox:
Chart-yatsu :4mario:
Ruri :rosalina:
 

zeldasmash

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I dream of a day where Samus, Marth, and Falco are all high tier.
Melee wants to say hi.

Link is a character who wants to be seen as a high tier sometime in his Smash career, though, considering every other OG 12 member has been seen as a high tier at least once.. :(.
 

hypersonicJD

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Melee wants to say hi.

Link is a character who wants to be seen as a high tier sometime in his Smash career, though, considering every other OG 12 member has been seen as a high tier at least once.. :(.
Wasn't Link top or high tier in Project M?
 

TurboLink

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Wasn't Link top or high tier in Project M?
I think so. M2K thought he was really up there at one point. I think it was because of boomerang jank and some other stuff.

Here's a post with him talking about Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-309#post-16545061

Melee wants to say hi.

Link is a character who wants to be seen as a high tier sometime in his Smash career, though, considering every other OG 12 member has been seen as a high tier at least once.. :(.
Personally, I don't believe Link will ever be high tier.
 
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Shaya

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Results matter a lot.
That doesn't mean just national level results matter.
They matter the most because it gives us the opportunity to compare power levels on a grander stage.

However, at nationals we assume the highest skilled players are going to come out on top, and those high skilled players tend to be the ones who are apart of highly competitive scenes and they travel. For the most part, character choice is secondary to their results. Although character choice is definitely often the difference between a tournament winner and the result of a set win against someone of similar skill level to you.

Biggest fish in the pond is an analogy that one would use to downplay someone, but the point I'm trying to make is that every pond has relevance.
The best ganondorf main in the world may fight Nairo and get double 2-stocked - but what if that ganondorf wasn't fighting one of the best players on Earth?

The character diversity one can observe in any pond can be helpful to understanding the game. To expect everyone to be on the same level of skill at a national is completely farfetched.
Chances are the gaps of skill seen towards the top echelons of a local scene are a lot smaller, and smaller sample sizes are essential to cut through the more overarching determiner of results that is the players themselves. We can't fully grasp top level play without mid and high level play as it's foundations (insert pika rant here).

All which is observable is worth looking at.

If I were to have any aspirations for this thread throughout this past year and a half, it would for us come to a point where we reflect on and analyse "things", not just presenting "things" as the be all end all.
Shoutouts to teddystalin, they should post more often.

on a personal note, I think I would kill for coffee right now
 
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C0rvus

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I find it funny that commenters tell him he's wrong and pessimistic, but to this day, I have not seen one person actually provide proper counter-arguments to his points. Is he overly negative? Maybe, but I have to agree with his points considering no one has managed to refute them convincingly. Look past his tone and you can see some pretty valid arguments.

Edit: many of Meta Knight's winning MU's are still winning overall, but they're simply less advantageous since he no longer always has that trump card with which to easily turn things around. The only new losing MU's he's gotten are, IMO, Fox, Ryu, Bayo (may be roughly even), along with the Diddy and Sheik MU's which he still loses overall (though obviously a much better Sheik MU). He still wins against Pikachu by virtue of his immunity to edge-guards and superior finishing ability.
Is it QGuyBrian or whatever? Not even gonna check, I bet it is. I have disputed his claims, directly, more than once. He doesn't listen, doesn't care, and isn't worth arguing with. THAT'S why people don't often provide counter argument. He's a known asshole who whines and cries and does nothing else.
You might think he's making good points because of his condescending tone, but he's just kind of a jerk who cannot get over Melee Marth not being Smash 4 Marth. Like, of-****ing-course Marth would LOVE to have SH double fair but he certainly doesn't need it to be a viable character.
 
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Nobie

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Exactly. I brought him up here because I wanted to see if anyone actually has any counterarguments -- which, so far, extend to "Marth isn't that slow". If I wanted to see people tell him he's wrong and overly negative, I can go to Reddit for that. And he is kind of a douche, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong.

Like I said, I don't know enough about Marth to properly dispute or conclusively agree with him. And that's why I was curious if anyone could disprove or corroborate his claims. All I can say is that he appears to take an overly reductive approach to viewing frame data in a vacuum, but aside from that, I don't have any great rebuttals, and I don't know if there are any.
In a way, what @BunbUn129 said about Ganondorf vs. Meta Knight sort of applies to why it's so hard to talk about Marth with that guy.
Now, that is all in theory. In theory, I assume that the MK player will abuse his safe moves, and not commit to unsafe options.
Marth in previous games was a character that had to make decisions, of course, but in a lot of matchups the strength of his sword basically meant that he could just keep people out without much consequence. Marth in Smash 4 became a character that is fast enough to fight well in neutral but feels the consequences of wrong decisions even at the basic level of "I jabbed at the wrong time."

For him, this is unacceptable, and he always positions the opponent as this person who is making all the right decisions, or will always stay in shield at the right time, etc. The idea that you have to play neutral in a very mentally focused way, of scaring your opponent into picking the non-ideal option without having extremely powerful tools (double fair, super grab range, etc.) seems to ruin Marth in his eyes.

Like, we all understand that Marth is not as good as he was in Brawl or Melee, but like we discussed throughout these threads having swordsmen not be so overwhelming (Cloud an exception to an extent) has helped the balance of this game so much. Marth more or less needed some of those buffs, but the fact that they want to make sure Marth maintains his weaknesses is a GOOD thing, unless one's image of Marth is as that nigh-impenetrable wall.
 

Megamang

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Cloud isn't even that much of an exception. He has different specific strengths than Marth (That I won't get into because I believe it to be one of the most well covered ideas here...) but how many mid, low, and even high tiered characters specifically hate Cloud for his disjoint + mobility?

---

It was interesting reading M2k's post, and while I agree with his point to an extent, I'm also glad we don't have persuasive power over the development of this game.
 

Ninety

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Is it QGuyBrian or whatever? Not even gonna check, I bet it is. I have disputed his claims, directly, more than once. He doesn't listen, doesn't care, and isn't worth arguing with. THAT'S why people don't often provide counter argument. He's a known ******* who whines and cries and does nothing else.
You might think he's making good points because of his condescending tone, but he's just kind of a jerk who cannot get over Melee Marth not being Smash 4 Marth. Like, of-****ing-course Marth would LOVE to have SH double fair but he certainly doesn't need it to be a viable character.
Do you perhaps have a link to any of those times? I genuinely want to hear a rebuttal, aside from that guy's attitude.

Nobie Nobie : I see what you mean. Thanks for the response.
 
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Megamang

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Are the servers down, or is it just me? Where do you go to check these things anyways?

1.1.6 fake hype. EDIT: Pretty sure its just me. :( I'm just super anxious about these things, cause I wanna know what is gonna happen to bayonetta mostly.
 
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Man Li Gi

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I'm noticing a trend that people who play simple characters like Luigi or heavies complain about their weaknesses because they don't want to have to do anything difficult to win. I think simple characters tend to draw lazy players.
I dunno man. Since heavies are inherently gimped designs with having already a large frame, poor OoS or wake up options, asking for them to be decent in something ain't too much. Say asking for a decent CQC game wouldn't be too much too ask or say. If your only hallmark is that you do damage in big chunks, but it takes you forever to do anything, then I don't think a lazy person could play them.

It takes a seriously smart person to even come close to winning with a heavy since they have less tools. Having access to less tools means your optimal play style is linear hence why they are so "simple". I would argue if anything, heavies have the biggest access to mind gaming and yomi because they need it to survive.

For my sake of playing heavies, I enjoy them because they soak up hits and I'm highly adaptive to getting hit. In other words, I play Rope a Dope. Also, I want my opponents to feel like they are exhausted like they just played a physically and mentally draining game with me. I also want them to know they either got spooked or outsmarted (getting outplayed isn't enough for me). I don't try and style, I try and make you feel some type of way.

That's not being lazy, but being somewhat sadistic. Geez man.
 

Megamang

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I like heavies, and I like the diversity they bring to smash. Not that other games don't have heavies, but its fun to watch one progress through a smash bracket. Its something about knowing their flaws should get them shut down, but then they are breaking that mould with raw power, but they aren't overpowering. You can get away. A lot.

It takes a smart player to make it work well.

Its just sad when they get gimped by one specific thing that they player can't work around, eg DK's terrible ledge get up. Everyone deserves options, and heavies should lose because they got outplayed and chipped down, not because their specific animation betrays them on the ledge and they can't get past a reactive player. That is all the heavy players want, and I want it as a spectator.


Ignore those asking for super armor out the ass on bowser and an earlier killing shell shock. There are reasonable buffs the characters could get without being dominant at lower levels. The ganon jab buff was something that comes to mind, throwing him a bone where he needs it without giving him absurd-er CC.
 

Blobface

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I like heavies, and I like the diversity they bring to smash. Not that other games don't have heavies, but its fun to watch one progress through a smash bracket. Its something about knowing their flaws should get them shut down, but then they are breaking that mould with raw power, but they aren't overpowering. You can get away. A lot.

It takes a smart player to make it work well.

Its just sad when they get gimped by one specific thing that they player can't work around, eg DK's terrible ledge get up. Everyone deserves options, and heavies should lose because they got outplayed and chipped down, not because their specific animation betrays them on the ledge and they can't get past a reactive player. That is all the heavy players want, and I want it as a spectator.


Ignore those asking for super armor out the *** on bowser and an earlier killing shell shock. There are reasonable buffs the characters could get without being dominant at lower levels. The ganon jab buff was something that comes to mind, throwing him a bone where he needs it without giving him absurd-er CC.
For clarification, what do you mean by CC?
 

Megamang

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Crowd Control, as in efficacy against large groups. Either via huge damaging hitboxes or some other attribute that lets them bully groups indiscriminately. Grab games are not good CC, since a doubles partner or random in FFA can break the grab for them easily.
 
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Dre89

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I dunno man. Since heavies are inherently gimped designs with having already a large frame, poor OoS or wake up options, asking for them to be decent in something ain't too much. Say asking for a decent CQC game wouldn't be too much too ask or say. If your only hallmark is that you do damage in big chunks, but it takes you forever to do anything, then I don't think a lazy person could play them.

It takes a seriously smart person to even come close to winning with a heavy since they have less tools. Having access to less tools means your optimal play style is linear hence why they are so "simple". I would argue if anything, heavies have the biggest access to mind gaming and yomi because they need it to survive.

For my sake of playing heavies, I enjoy them because they soak up hits and I'm highly adaptive to getting hit. In other words, I play Rope a Dope. Also, I want my opponents to feel like they are exhausted like they just played a physically and mentally draining game with me. I also want them to know they either got spooked or outsmarted (getting outplayed isn't enough for me). I don't try and style, I try and make you feel some type of way.

That's not being lazy, but being somewhat sadistic. Geez man.
The only real problem heavies have is that they lose neutral most of the time. But that's an intended weakness, because they don't need to win it as many times. Giving them low frame CQC would be silly because then characters wouldn't be rewarded for penetrating their obnoxious zoning with boxing and pivot grabs.

The issue I have is that too many heavy mains complain about how they lose neutral. Doing well in neutral is the only real skill to playing heavies, apart from knowing how to DI and mix up your momentum in disadvantage. They want to be able to win neutral as many times as lightweights, whilst still needing to win it less times.

That's how balance works. If you can win neutral most of the time, then you should need to win it more than other characters. If you don't need to win it many times, then it should be harder to win it.

And then you have Bayonetta, who can win it very easily yet needs to win it even less than the heavies.
 

AnEventHorizon

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Okay, well. It is a pretty bad match-up from my perspective, the only factor that really prevents it from being completely hellish for Ganon is MK's weight (aerial down b kills at 70-80% if I'm not mistaken, and f tilt is scary at the ledge). MK can't afford to make many mistakes, but he does have the tools to avoid putting himself in that position in the first place.

If we're going off theory, it's horrible. MK can abuse his neutral options (frame 3 d tilt, dair camping, etc) and Ganon can't safely or quickly respond. From my experience, Ganon has to rely on jab and d tilt (it outranges possibly all of MK's moves, and kills ~100%), along with usmash baiting, to try and keep MK out. From neutral, Ganon has a bad time in disadvantage. He doesn't really get laddered anymore, and even in the instances he does, he'll rarely die from it due to his weight. Regardless, Ganon has such a difficult time landing, and MK can easily exploit this (but wizkick is pretty scary even though it's unsafe).

On the other hand, Meta Knight can get out of disadvantage for free (though he does not want to take a stray hit from something like a uair) with his jumps, 3 landing aerials, and Cape mix-ups. Recovering is simple, though, again, MK has to respect Ganon's aerials because they all kill damn early. For Ganon, offstage is almost a one-sided affair when he's trying to get back. He's dead if he uses his double jump and take a hit. If he's recovering from far, MK can just go deep and bait an airdodge and then punish with a nair or bair, or any aerial for the matter. It's important for MK to go far offstage because then he won't have to contend with the absurdly large hitbox on the end of Ganon's up b, and while kill-suiciding with Flame Choke is a thing, it's far too risky for it to make a major difference.

Killing is hard to decide. Ganondorf has high power across a lot of his kit, but MK has kill set-ups and his safe f smash. He'll die really early if he commits to something unsafe or Ganon makes a read, but Ganon really can't do much to avoid dash attack -> upb (which is easy given Ganon's physics), d tilt set-ups, and usmash to finish juggles.

Now, that is all in theory. In theory, I assume that the MK player will abuse his safe moves, and not commit to unsafe options. In theory, this MU could be 80-20. However, in practice, players make dumb mistakes, and Ganon thrives off of these. He only needs a couple of solid hits and he's good, so going by this, it's 70-30 IMO. Meta Knight wins by a considerable amount, but that doesn't mean it's a free win, because the MK player has to play very carefully against Ganon. There have been a few times where I've been juggling Ganondorf, only to let my guard down, disregard him, and die to an aerial wizkick.

This is unlike pre-patch where I would reason this MU was as bad as 90-10 lol. It was :popo: vs :ganondorf: all over again.
Here's a set between Pon (Ganondorf) and Salena (Meta Knight) for analysis. Pon wins this one. Salena came to Genesis 3 a few days after this match and took 5th in round 2 pools, making him land just shy of Top 32 (Notably won 2-0 over Xaltis, lost 2-1 to SlayerZ).

EDIT: HeavyLobster HeavyLobster I only just saw your post after writing mine. Seems like we had the same idea.
 
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Greward

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Making heavies' disadvantage state slightly better would help.
I mean, I'm fine with having poor neutral for stronger reward out of winning it, but the fact that by being heavy you are a gigantic combo fodder with awful dodges/rolls/getups is kinda meh.

Compared to having a higher life bar / more hit points in traditional fighting games, being heavy in smash is not so much of an advantage. Yes, you die later, but you get hit way much more because of the inherents mechanics heavyweights have so it rounds up evenish in the end.
Fortunately in this game there's rage to abuse with a heavyweight, which is completely their saving grace and what allows them to have a niche position in the game.

I just don't really think it's necessary to make the basic frame data (rolls, jumpsquats, getups, ...) be so terrible for a heavyweight.
 

Megamang

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AnEventHorizon AnEventHorizon you didn't put a link in your post. I wanna see this set yo.


Heavies should have some good dodge data, but I don't want bowser to have Pika rolls and a death grab. Part of winning neutral is mobility, and if you gave heavies the same dodges as lightweights you'd have a hell of a time trapping them, and they'd have ways in that were pretty easy. Roll -> Bowser bomb would be a huge pain, for example.
 
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AnEventHorizon

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Megamang Megamang Yes, the link should be there now. I tried to add it quickly after, but alas.

On another note, Kurogane Hammer has recently updated the character attributes with lesser known things like air deceleration, dash length, and traction.
 

Megamang

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Thank you so much for that information, i've been looking for a resource on that ever since I lost the post somewhere deep in the mechanics thread.

@KuroganeHammer @Kurogane Hammer (Don't know which is active): The shield health is listed as 50 on the site, but I thought we'd proved it was 42 recently.
 
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Nobie

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Megamang Megamang Yes, the link should be there now. I tried to add it quickly after, but alas.

On another note, Kurogane Hammer has recently updated the character attributes with lesser known things like air deceleration, dash length, and traction.
I think it says a lot about what Game & Watch's intended playstyle is when the character's air deceleration is better than his air acceleration.
 

Megamang

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And its confusing game design when you open up a list that sounds important, and see "Shiek"..."Everyone else"
 

Kofu

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I think it says a lot about what Game & Watch's intended playstyle is when the character's air deceleration is better than his air acceleration.
You'd think I'd know this from playing the character but air deceleration is how quickly you stop in the air when you hold the other direction, yeah? EDIT: just read the page on it. How does that factor in with air acceleration and stuff?

Also worth noting that his mobility seems completely fluid when the parachute from Fire is active.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Making heavies' disadvantage state slightly better would help.
I mean, I'm fine with having poor neutral for stronger reward out of winning it, but the fact that by being heavy you are a gigantic combo fodder with awful dodges/rolls/getups is kinda meh.

Compared to having a higher life bar / more hit points in traditional fighting games, being heavy in smash is not so much of an advantage. Yes, you die later, but you get hit way much more because of the inherents mechanics heavyweights have so it rounds up evenish in the end.
Fortunately in this game there's rage to abuse with a heavyweight, which is completely their saving grace and what allows them to have a niche position in the game.

I just don't really think it's necessary to make the basic frame data (rolls, jumpsquats, getups, ...) be so terrible for a heavyweight.
Yeah. Doesn't do much for Ganondorf to do 13% a hit only to get comboed back for 40-50%. As far as buffing his recovery, I would buff his airspeed up to where it was in Brawl(+0.06) and make Dark Dive come out around 2 frames faster and have about 12-15 frames fewer endlag on hit so he can't get Rockcrocked anymore. Both of these buffs would aid him in other ways as well, but would fundamentally just make it a bit easier for him to mix up his recovery options, and would help other aspects of his game as well.
 

Megamang

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And they could give him a jump at the bottom of an airbourne divekick like he used to have...

He can't do that right? If he can I never see it utilized.
 

KamikazePotato

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The issue with heavies in the Smash series as a whole is that their strengths are undertuned, and their weaknesses are exacerbated. Not only do most of their attacks come out slow, but their rolls/dodges/getups are poor, their recovery is poor, their running speed is poor...the list goes on. On the other hand, their two biggest supposed strengths - higher killing power and the ability to take a hit - are rendered meaningless in many cases. Their weight makes them combo food, which makes them take more damage, which makes them die faster than they should. And lighter characters tend to have strong kill options regardless, and the ability to gimp characters more easily. Smash 4 is the first game in the series where heavies actually do kill somewhat earlier than lightweights, and the only reason that's the case is because of rage.

Regardless, even if the heavies continue to get buffed, I doubt most competitive players will take to them. Characters like Sheik, ZSS, Diddy Kong take more technical skill to play, but their speed allows them to play a much safer, more reactive game. The skillset of a good heavy player is made up of almost 100% predictive ability, which is MUCH harder to do on a consistent basis. Competitive players don't want to lose the final match of Evo because they went for a hard read with Ganondorf (a.k.a.: they tried to use virtually any of Ganondorf's moves), missed the read, and got combo murdered for their trouble. Risk is scary.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Honestly, I think there's just a bias against super heavy weights regardless of whether they're good or bad.
 
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